It is not difficult for any decent human being to immediately apprehend why and how Donald Trump’s ban on immigrants from seven Muslim countries is inhumane, bigoted, and shameful. During the campaign, the evil of the policy was recognized even by Mike Pence (“offensive and unconstitutional”) and Paul Ryan (violative of America’s “fundamental values”), who are far too craven and cowardly to object now.
Trump’s own defense secretary, Gen. James Mattis, said when Trump first advocated his Muslim ban back in August that “we have lost faith in reason,” adding: “This kind of thing is causing us great damage right now, and it’s sending shock waves through this international system.”
The sole ostensible rationale for this ban — it is necessary to keep out Muslim extremists — collapses upon the most minimal scrutiny. The countries that have produced and supported the greatest number of anti-U.S. terrorists — Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, UAE — are excluded from the ban list because the tyrannical regimes that run those countries are close U.S. allies. Conversely, the countries that are included — Syria, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Iran, Sudan, and Yemen — have produced virtually no such terrorists; as the Cato Institute documented on Friday night: “Foreigners from those seven nations have killed zero Americans in terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1975 and the end of 2015.” Indeed, as of a 2015 study by the New America research center, deaths caused by terrorism from right-wing nationalists since 9/11 have significantly exceeded those from Muslim extremists.
Trump’s pledge last night to a Christian broadcasting network to prioritize Christian refugees over all others is just profane: The very idea of determining who merits refuge on the basis of religious belief is bigotry in its purest sense. Beyond the morality, it is almost also certainly unconstitutional in a country predicated on the “free exercise of religion.” In the New York Times this morning, Cato analyst David Bier also convincingly argues that the policy is illegal on statutory grounds as well.
Making this worse still is the central role the U.S. government played in the horrors from which many of these now-banned people are fleeing. The suggestion that Trump protected the countries with which he does business is preposterous. The reality is that his highly selective list reflects longstanding U.S. policy: Indeed, Obama restricted visa rights for these same seven countries, and the regimes in Riyadh and Cairo have received special U.S. protection for decades, long before Trump.
Beyond U.S. support for the world’s worst regimes, what primarily shapes Trump’s list is U.S. aggression: Five of the seven predominantly Muslim countries on Trump’s list were ones bombed by Obama, while the other two (Iran and Sudan) were punished with heavy sanctions. Thus, Trump is banning immigrants from the very countries that the U.S. government — under both Republicans and Democrats — has played a key role in destabilizing and destroying, as Democratic Sen. Chris Murphy, with surprising candor, noted this week:
We bomb your country, creating a humanitarian nightmare, then lock you inside. That's a horror movie, not a foreign policy.
— Chris Murphy (@ChrisMurphyCT) January 25, 2017
It is critical to recognize and fight against the unique elements of Trump’s extremism, but also to acknowledge that a substantial portion of it has roots in political and cultural developments that long precede him. Immigration horror stories — including families being torn apart — are nothing new. As ABC News noted last August, “The Obama administration has deported more people than any other president’s administration in history. In fact, they have deported more than the sum of all the presidents of the 20th century.”
And the reason Trump is able so easily to tap into a groundswell of anti-Muslim fears and bigotry is because they have been cultivated for 16 years as the central fuel driving the war on terror. There are factions on both the center-left and right that are primarily devoted to demonizing Muslims and Islam. A government can get away with bombing, invading, and droning the same group of people for more than 15 years only by constantly demonizing and dehumanizing that group and maintaining high fear levels, which is exactly what the U.S. has done under two successive administrations. Both the Bush and Obama administrations ushered in all-new and quite extreme civil liberties erosions aimed primarily if not exclusively at Muslims.
Trump did not appear out of nowhere. He is the logical and most grotesque expression of a variety of trends we have allowed to fester: endless war, a virtually omnipotent presidency, unlimited war powers from spying to due process-free imprisonment to torture to assassinations, repeated civil liberties erosions in the name of illusory guarantees of security, and the sustained demonization of Muslims as scary, primitive, uniquely violent Others.
A country that engages in endless war against multiple countries not only kills a lot of people but degrades its own citizenry. Trump is the rotted fruit that inevitably sprouts from such fetid roots.
Trump is not a Russian phenomenon, nor an Italian one, nor Latin American: He is distinctly and consummately American, merely the most extreme face yet from America’s endless war on terror and its post-2008 lurch toward oligarchy. Pretending that Trump is some grand aberration, some radical departure from U.S. history and values, is simply a deceitful way of whitewashing what we have collectively endorsed and allowed.
Thus did we witness the spectacle last week of many acting as though Trump’s plans for CIA black sites, torture, and rendition were shocking Trumpian aberrations even though many of those denouncing the plans were the ones who advocated or implemented those policies in the first place or protected those who did from criminal prosecution. Denouncing and opposing Trump should not serve to obscure sins of the recent past or whitewash the seeds planted before him that have allowed him to sprout. Opposing Trump’s assault on basic liberties requires a clear understanding of the framework that gave rise to it.
But this Muslim ban — and that, in effect and by design, is what it is — is nonetheless different in significant degree if not in kind. Despite what came before it, there is no denying that Trump is now taking the U.S. to dark and foreboding places that are a step beyond what even recent presidents, in the name of protection against Muslims, have ushered in. A formal and absolute codification of this anti-Muslim premise is inherently dangerous, as it is likely to further indoctrinate millions of Americans to regard Muslims as uniquely menacing and threatening.
Beyond that, the humanitarian horrors instantly produced by Trump’s immigration ban are impossible to overstate. That countless war refugees fleeing the ravages the U.S. helped create are now banned from refuge, many consigned to their deaths, is self-evident. The parallels with how Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution were treated in the 1930s and 1940s are obvious. This new Twitter account has been describing individual Jews whose ship was refused entry by the Roosevelt administration in 1939 as they were fleeing Nazis, only to end up dying in Auschwitz and other camps.
As my colleague Lee Fang documented in 2015, the prevailing rhetoric about Muslim refugees is identical to that used to demonize Jews during the World War II era. Indeed, the right-wing rag Daily Mail’s 2015 cartoon showing Muslim refugees as rats (top cartoon, below) perfectly tracked a 1939 cartoon in a Viennese newspaper depicting Jews the same way (bottom, below):
But as I’ve noted before, it is often the more pedestrian, less dramatic injustices that resonate when it comes to civil liberties abuses. This McClatchy article from yesterday, for instance, tells the story of Murtadha Al-Tameemi, a 24-year-old Iraqi-born software developer at Facebook who had to urgently leave Canada, where he was visiting his family this week, in order to rush back into the U.S. before Trump’s ban took effect, and he is now barred from visiting them due to (rational) fear that he will not be able to return. In that article, Al-Tameemi describes the hideous abuses and indignities he has long faced as a Muslim immigrant in the U.S., but he now faces a full and absolute ban from entering.
Meanwhile, the New York Daily News reports this morning that many Muslims and Arabs who have long carried visas to the U.S. are being stranded in airports and barred from entry to their planes. Even more significant, albeit harder to quantify, is the extreme fear that Muslim Americans and immigrants quite rationally harbor about what this will all spawn, both in terms of cultural norms and additional policies. Just as attitudes toward LGBT Americans changed as their personal stories became more known, these kinds of stories of how ordinary Muslims are having their basic rights trampled on with no justification are critical for highlighting how abusive these policies are.
One of the greatest dangers of these trends is the ongoing ability of groups devoted to protecting Muslim Americans’ civil rights to function freely and effectively. The largest such group, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), has long been the target of the U.S. government. The Bush administration branded the group an un-indicted “co-conspirator” in a terrorism case, ensuring it would be smeared but remain without the ability to defend itself in a court. As we reported in 2014, the group’s executive director was targeted with invasive, highly personalized electronic surveillance by the NSA.
CAIR now plays a critical role in defending American Muslims and immigrants from these civil liberties assaults. The group already announced that it would file suit challenging the constitutionality and legality of Trump’s ban. Muslims who have nowhere else to turn are often defended by CAIR as their basic rights are assaulted, and that will be even truer now.
But the group has long been in the cross-hairs of the worst anti-Muslim extremists, such as Peter King, along with even worse radicals who now exert significant influence in the Trump administration. Breitbart, whose former chief Steve Bannon is now one of the most powerful individuals in the White House, has long had an intense fixation with the group.
There is a serious risk that CAIR will be targeted, as it has been in the past by less extreme officials. The group is a critical bulwark protecting Muslim Americans and Muslim immigrants from serious civil liberties abuses, and needs and deserves support from anyone able to provide it, which one can do here (as disclosure: I have spoken several times at CAIR events and to various affiliates and intend, in solidarity, to do so even more this year).
It is often the case that extremists on both sides of a protracted conflict end up mirroring one another’s attributes, mentality, and tactics. That is precisely what we are now witnessing as anti-Muslim crusaders in the U.S. adopt the same premises as ISIS and its allies: that the West and Muslims are inherently and irreconcilably adverse. As my colleague Murtaza Hussain described in 2015, the ultimate strategic and propaganda goal of ISIS is to eliminate the “gray zone” for Western Muslims, “generating hostility between domestic Muslim populations and the broader societies that they live in” so as to convince both sides that they should be at war rather than striving for harmony and assimilation.
It is difficult to envision anything that helps ISIS’s overarching objective, its central narrative, more than Trump’s immigration ban aimed at Muslims while privileging Christian refugees. But it’s not impossible to imagine policies that could be worse in this regard. The danger now is that this immigration ban is merely the first step on this heinous path, not the last. That’s why it’s urgent that everything be done to denounce it, battle it, and defeat it now.
Islamophobia isn’t just a reaction to something else that happened. There are well organized and well funded groups that are dedicated to spreading Islamophobia.
Frightening as well is the horror of ICE agents not responding to court orders and claiming to be operating under orders from the president
Glenn Greenwald is right, Trump’s approach is different, even though it flows from the previous administration. Trump wants to turn the war on terror into a war of civilizations. The target will be the entire US population, beginning with those who are most vulnerable. The aim is to soften us up, in preparation for future “big” wars, against China or Russia or some other country. Stigmatizing the oppressed and restricting democratic rights are the classic ploys of the warmonger.
I dont’ like Trump but why every journalist, his mother and her cat has to write bs about Trump? The title is misleading – the ban is about selected countries, not on muslims.
Why do I care? it’s simple really: if journalists do mislead people on purpose, why should I trust them on anything… see where it leads? Yeah, people like Trump or even worse, Hillary, get elected.
Sorry Glen, but any faith that teaches their children that life after death is more important than life on earth, forces barbaric rituals upon their believers (and non believers) where a female is worth 1/2 a man, needs extreme vetting.
Multiculturalism should not mean that we tolerate another culture’s intolerance
Andy you just described how extremist christians act towards women & love to hate. Half of them are cheering the madman on because they hope it is end of days. Who values the afterlife more than life? Christians. Can tell you do not know much about the various sects of the Muslim faith or you wouldn’t feel free to generalize. Like the Jewish, Buddhist& Christian faiths, the Muslim faith has many branches and is not one dimensional. Quit vesting in bs & hate it is diabolical.
“It is often the case that extremists on both sides of a protracted conflict end up mirroring one another’s attributes, mentality, and tactics. That is precisely what we are now witnessing as anti-Muslim crusaders in the U.S. adopt the same premises as ISIS and its allies: that the West and Muslims are inherently and irreconcilably adverse”
This reminds me of what Dr. Andrew Bacevich said in 2007
“Niebuhr evinced an instinctive aversion to anything that smacked of utopianism and he saw in the American Creed a susceptibility to the utopian temptation. In the early phases of the Cold War, he provocatively suggested that “the evils against which we contend are frequently the fruits of illusions which are similar to our own” Although Niebuhr was referring to the evils of communism, his comment applies equally to the present, when the United States contends against the evils of Islamic radicalism. The illusions of Osama bin Laden find their parallel in the illusions of George W. Bush. Each of these two protagonists is intent on radically changing the Middle East, the former by ejecting the West and imposing Sharia, the latter by defeating “the terrorists” and imprinting modernity”
Of course the really corrupt and destructive “trend that was allowed to fester” – including, regrettably, by The Intercept – was the lie that launched the bogus “war on terror”: the fairy story of 19 hijackers and four planes – none of which was true. It’s the failure – especially by influential people like Chomsky and Pilger, and Glenn – to lance that festering boil that has allowed Islamophobia to spread like the plague, already guilty of destroying millions of lives and whole societies, and now picked up by the Chump – who one wanted to believe was different.
I’m not as reflexively hostile towards 9/11 Truthers as some are, but Osama bin Laden DID effectively plan and launch the world trade center attacks on 9/11. I have no doubt that we were lied to in many ways about all the particulars of that attack, but I don’t think we can take the conspiracy theory too far.
The most important point about the attack on 9/11 is that it was launched in response to our military interventions into the middle east. It is never excusable to target innocent civilians in war, but the motivations for Al Qaeda were perfectly rational and it is not hard to see how moderate Muslims can become sympathetic to any group that is trying to take revenge against the imperialistic West.
The lesson to take is that the terrorists have very rational and secular motivations for attacking us. The religion of Islam has literally nothing to do with why they attack us. They want revenge for our foreign policy, pure and simple.
Glenn’s latest post: Obama Killed a 16-Year-Old American in Yemen. Trump Just Killed His 8-Year-Old Sister.
In this lethal instance, it truly would not have mattered whether it was POTUS Trump or POTUS Clinton.
In fact Mona, the war on terror by Trump will likely get worse than under Obama. I envision (eventually) joint US-Russian strikes against al-Qaeda, ISIS, (possibly) Boko Haram and other Islamic terrorist organizations. These will be similar to the joint Turkey-Russian air strikes in Syria.
READERS: About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican who said he was a Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board.
Mona knows I didn’t vote for Trump. I supported Trump early on, but even as a staunch Republican, I could see he is a nutcase………
DocHollywood
As usual Doc, you are missing the point on why the extreme left and radically antiwar civil libertarians supported Trump albeit with their hands held firmly over their noses. Nothing can be easier than distancing one’s self from the bigoted Trump – especially if you are on the left side of the political spectrum. Even as a staunch Republican, it extremely easy to be critical of Trump. However, that is absolutely meaningless when it comes to supporting some positions of a particular candidate – and very important positions related principally to foreign policy. Of course, Greenwald is going to deny he supports a candidate like Trump. Like all far left pundits, he is a social liberal. Why would you expect anything different? For honest opposition to Trump, then read Mackey. Mackey relentlessly criticized Trump – and clearly supported HRC for President. To be fair, Mackey no doubt believed that there were better candidates to support for President than Hillary Clinton, but for a “liberal”, Trump represented a huge threat to women and minorities. That is the number one priority for liberals – and large continuous demonstrations against Trump since he took office strongly endorse that position.
Just read what Greenwald writes about HRC in article after article. Greenwald has made a career out of criticizing “empire” – and no single recent candidate for President (outside of maybe McCain) represents empire (the status quo, the establishment i.e., the “deep state”) any more than HRC. Hillary promised the same unfettered support for Israel. She would confront Russia in Ukraine and Syria (installing a no-fly zone). HRC was the architect for regime change in Libya. HRC promised more predictable policies in support of the Saudis and Israel, and opposition to Iran, Syria, Lebanon (Hezbollah) and Russia – the same geopolitical game the US has been playing for decades. In short, Hillary is “empire” although far more liberal on social issues than Trump. Of course, US imperialism is the driving force behind the far left’s opposition to the US i.e., anti-Americanism. “Fealty” to Israel is a large part of the same opposition. Early in the campaign, Trump seemed to take a more neutral position on the IP conflict.
The positive aspect of Trump is his apparent lack of fear for the “deep state” (especially the US intelligence assessment that Russia passed along hacked DNC emails to WikiLeaks), his support for détente with Russia (essentially throwing ethnic Ukrainians and the Syrian opposition to Assad the murderer under the bus), calling the wars in Iraq and Libya disasters and generally promising a different approach to US foreign policy – a more non-interventionist policy. Turning the rudder of the imperial ship is what interest the alt left. Again Greenwald writes:
“……..It is not hard to understand why the CIA preferred Clinton over Trump. Clinton was critical of Obama for restraining the CIA’s proxy war in Syria and was eager to expand that war, while Trump denounced it. Clinton clearly wanted a harder line than Obama took against the CIA’s long-standing foes in Moscow, while Trump wanted improved relations and greater cooperation. In general, Clinton defended and intended to extend the decades long international military order on which the CIA and Pentagon’s preeminence depends, while Trump — through a still-uncertain mix of instability and extremist conviction — posed a threat to it……..”
Uncertain? There is nothing uncertain about Trump. Trump is doing exactly what he promised to do. By the same token, it’s “not hard to understand why [Greenwald] preferred [Trump] over [Clinton]” (my insertions in brackets). To alt left activists, war (empire) takes priority over social issues – including freedom and human rights (as in Syria where the US is “at fault” for a war initiated by Assad). US “imperialism” is top priority. Julian Assange is the most striking example of far left “support” for Trump yet he asked (in all sincerity in my opinion) whether one preferred “Cholera or gonorrhea” for the next US President. However, Assange undermined HRC viewing Trump as an unknown. Notice that Assange denies he specifically tried to undermine Hillary, but it’s obvious that was his goal (Assange in interview with John Pilger; RT – November 5, 2016 “Assange: Clinton is a cog for Goldman Sachs & the Saudis”; JOHN PILGER EXCLUSIVE VIDEO & TRANSCRIPT; https://www.rt.com/news/365405-assange-pilger-full-transcript/#.WI9d_xa6JlA.twitter;).
“……She represents a whole network of people and a network of relationships with particular states. The question is how does Hilary Clinton fit in this broader network? She’s a centralising cog. You’ve got a lot of different gears in operation from the big banks like Goldman Sachs and major elements of Wall Street, and Intelligence and people in the State Department and the Saudis………..She’s the centraliser that inter-connects all these different cogs. She’s the smooth central representation of all that, and ‘all that’ is more or less what is in power now in the United States.…….Libya, more than anyone else’s war, was Hillary Clinton’s war. Barak Obama initially opposed it. Who was the person championing it? Hillary Clinton……”
Again, HRC IS the central cog for the “establishment” i.e., the deep state. In an interview with Megyn Kelly, Assange shows his disdain for HRC by linking her to the neocons.
“……..”The allegations by the Clinton campaign that everyone is a Russian agent are really disturbing,” Assange said. “Why is that? Well, bizarrely, Hillary Clinton, the Democrat, has become, has positioned herself now, as being the security candidate. She’s palled up with the neocons responsible for the Iraq War and she’s grabbed on to this sort of neo-McCarthyist hysteria about Russia, and is using that to demonize the Trump campaign.”…….”
Over and over, the extreme left gives their reasons for supporting a Trump Presidency – and it’s driven by US imperialism. To say that the alt left including Greenwald didn’t “support” Trump is disingenuous, ridiculous and untrue.
Just curious – why won’t you block quote using html, or this very easy to use comment-editing website?
Actually, Craig, I am curious too.
In long posts, block quoting makes them more readable.
Craig is a liar and authoritarian promulgator of disinformation. It’s to the good his long screeds are as unreadable as they are.
Who is the authoritarian?
-Mona- ? Doug Salzmann
September 30 2016, 4:54 p.m.
Doug, if Mackey doesn’t revert to worthwhile material after this election is over– if he spends it defending Hillary — they will simply have to do something. At that point I’ll make my displeasure known to TPTB. (I’ve already grumbled about the last, inane Mackey column to You Know Who.)
You utter fool. That’s not authoritarianism, that’s consumerism.
You are not the only one to post this (or something similar) to me over the past couple of years, but I might give it a try. I really don’t buy that the above post is difficult to figure out though.
Thanks.
It would be enough if this was merely the continuation of Obama policies. Sadly, this type of behavior goes far back. These actions are reminiscent of John Adams, who signed the Alien Friends Act (deporting or imprisoning those the President considered dangerous) and the Alien Enemies Act (deporting or imprisoning male immigrants from a country the US was in conflict with.) John Adams is quite popular in recent years, with laudatory books and miniseries written about him. His Treasury Secretary, Alexander Hamilton, is wildly popular, with a Broadway Musical about him (And a movement to deny Trump’s electoral votes- ironic since Hamilton favored electors over common people voting). One of the last presidents to invoke the Alien Enemies Act was Harry S. Truman, doing so after World War II ENDED. (You may recall Democrats contrasting Truman with Trump at the convention and on the campaign trail.)
The recent mosque attacks add a very disturbing subtext to all this. We should remember that when Hitler was first elected, there were many Germans who refused to join in a boycott of Jewish shops, and on the “night of breaking glass”, many people opposed the breakdown of law and order. It’s not enough for people to deplore these attacks — they have to stop! There is a legitimate role for faith-based anti-Islamic sentiment, but that role should be of the missionary seeking to liberate Muslims to a better faith, rather than of the bigot seeking to oppress and attack them.
Thought a): “liberate Muslims” leads to b) “bigot seeking to oppress and attack them.”
Is it really necessary to spend next 6 months pointing out that “criticism of Clinton” ? “support for Trump”?
– Glenn Greenwald on twitter, 29 Apr 2016.
In retrospect that was foolishly optimistic: we now know that it will have to be repeated over and over for at least the next 4 years.
And the really amazing part is that it won’t end there, either:
Are you sure about that?
Could you have maybe missed a thing or two?
Perhaps a review of what Greenwald actually said might be worth considering:
“For the Democratic Party smear artists falsely claiming that?—?either explicitly or implicitly?—?I’ve supported Trump in any manner:
– by Glenn Greenwald, October 16, 2016
My March, 2016 Intercept article calling on the US media to shed fake-neutrality and instead sound the alarm about Trump’s dangerous extremism:
“As Donald Trump’s campaign predictably moves from toxic rhetoric targeting the most marginalized minorities to threats and use of violence, there is a growing sense that American institutions have been too lax about resisting it. . . . Imagine calling yourself a journalist, and then?—?as you watch an authoritarian politician get closer to power by threatening and unleashing violence and stoking the ugliest impulses?—?denouncing not that politician, but rather other journalists who warn of the dangers. That is the embodiment of the ethos of corporate journalism in America, and a potent illustration of why its fetishized reverence for “objectivity” is so rotted and even dangerous. . . .
As a result, nobody should be looking to our nation’s largest media outlets to serve as a bulwark against Trumpism or any other serious menace. The rules they have imposed on themselves, by design, ensure their own neutrality even in the face of the most extreme evils.”
Democracy Now interview, August 29, 2016:
AMY GOODMAN: So, we’ve talked a lot about Hillary Clinton, and she did get a lot of negative attention this past week over these—the revelations of the Associated Press, but not as much as she would have, because of all that Donald Trump has been saying and tweeting and representing. Glenn Greenwald, what are your comments on Hillary Clinton’s opponent, Donald Trump?
GLENN GREENWALD: I mean, Donald Trump is—I mean, the tactic of the Democratic Party in the last 25 years—they know that ever since they became the party of sort of corporatism and Wall Street, they don’t inspire anybody, so their tactic is to say the Republican Party is the epitome of evil. Even when they have conventional nominees like Mitt Romney or John McCain, they demonize them and say they’re this unparalleled threat to democracy. In this election, just by coincidence, it happens to be true.
The person that the Republican Party has nominated, on a personal level, is extraordinarily unstable and vindictive and dangerous and narcissistic, in a way that you really wouldn’t trust him to occupy any minor political office, let alone command the military of the United States and the entire executive branch. The rhetoric that he’s been embracing over the past 18 months is extraordinarily frightening, because, even if he loses, he is emboldening extremist nationalism, racism, all kinds of bigotry. He’s giving license for its expression. He is serving as a galvanizing force for these very dangerous elements, not just in the American political culture, but in Europe and elsewhere throughout the right. And it’s just unthinkable to allow him anywhere near the White House, given the things that he wants to do, from deporting 11 million people to barring all Muslims from entering the country, and so many of the other things that he’s said. Even though he’s so unstable you don’t know if he would do any of them, the instability itself is so risky.
And so, this has become the real problem, is he is such a kind of dangerous presence on the American landscape that a lot of people have become afraid of doing their jobs and scrutinizing his opponent. And I think that that also is quite dangerous, even though I understand the motives behind it.
My August, 2015 Intercept article defending Jorge Ramos for interrupting Trump’s press conference:
The Republican presidential candidate leading every poll, Donald Trump, recently unveiled his plan to forcibly deport all 11 million human beings residing in the U.S. without proper documentation, roughly half of whom have children born in the U.S. (and who are thus American citizens). As George Will noted last week, “Trump’s roundup would be about 94 times larger than the wartime internment of 117,000 persons of Japanese descent.” It would require a massive expansion of the most tyrannical police state powers far beyond their already immense post-9/11 explosion. And that’s to say nothing of the incomparably ugly sentiments that Trump’s advocacy of this plan, far before its implementation, is predictably unleashing. . . .
What is more noble for a journalist to do: confront a dangerous, powerful billionaire-demagogue spouting hatemongering nonsense about mass deportation, or sit by quietly and pretend to have no opinions on any of it and that “both sides” are equally deserving of respect and have equal claims to validity? As Ramos put it simply, in what should not even need to be said: “I’m a reporter. My job is to ask questions. What’s ‘totally out of line’ is to eject a reporter from a press conference for asking questions.”
What Ramos did here was pure journalism in its classic and most noble expression: He aggressively confronted a politician wielding a significant amount of power over some pretty horrible things that the politician is doing and saying. . .
As a Jewish LGBT journalist in an inter-racial, same-sex marriage, the claim that I’m aligned with the alt-right or will thrive in a Trump presidency is not just self-evidently offensive but every bit as dishonest as the claim that I’ve been pro-Trump during the campaign. But, needless to say, no evidence in the world can deter Democratic Party apparatchiks from pursuing their smear campaigns against critics.”
[much more including many tweets at the link above]
Header should read:
Is it really necessary to spend next 6 months pointing out that “criticism of Clinton” does not equate with “support for Trump”?
– Glenn Greenwald on twitter, 29 Apr 2016.
Holding Greenwald responsible for Trump is like holding CraigSummers responsible for the intellectual integrity of thought. … *see ‘craig v. craig’ @ public records to see how that works out.
*I was hoping for some more, um, persona anecdotes on Trump from Glenn during Putin’s hacking the election. e.g. heard Contractors/Sub contractors working on Trump Towers were, um, forced to accept a 15% reduction … or try their luck in court.
I never said or implied that Greenwald was responsible for Trump. However, he supported Trump like any good anti-imperialist should. The choice was simple – a President that moves the US in an anti-interventionist direction or one that supports interventionism and the use of US power to shape the world.
I’m aware of the three articles GG dug up, above. In all 3 GG calls Trump some mean names, en passant, while addressing other issues. Incidentally, it’s a bit much even including the Democracy Now quote, as we’re talking about GG’s role at TI and one had to google around a bit to even find that DN article back during the election.
I am not accusing GG of being a Trump supporter – of course he’s not, the guy has a brain. I am accusing him attacking HRC relentlessly in the many months leading to the Democratic primary (which was all well and good and fair enough) and then standing by in silence during the presidential campaign in which Trump was elected. The implicit message was that the two candidates were equivalently bad – as Assange put it, like choosing between gonorrhoea and cholera.
And so we have Trump. Will we spend 6 months talking about this, or 4 years? I hope so. It’s important.
A big part of this was choosing to focus on Foreign Policy / Civil Liberties to the exclusion of virtually everything else. As has been said before, Progressivism is a big tent; there’s room for a lot of different ideological flavors in the tent, but there’s also times when we work at cross-purposes by being too intoxicated by the moral heights of a particular ideological stance. Basic intersectionality, right? The problem with Greenwald was that he constantly presented the foreign-policy “similiarites” between Clinton and Trump as being the only issue that mattered–not access to health care, not funding of public institutions, not basic fucking decency when it comes to treating women and brown people like people. It isn’t hard to see why that is; you’ll note that Greenwald only disavowed affinity with ‘alt-right’ ideology, but said nothing about the strain of libertarianism that puts him just to the right of Rand Paul. Being a comfortable dude with money, Greenwald can happily reconcile a government small enough to drown in a bathtub with progressive utopia; he has that pernicious DINKy blindspot that affects a lot of white LBGTQ people.
Good point.
Beyond Obama’s 2015 Visa Act there has already been in place an extreme vetting for Muslim’s since 2008. As the question maybe where were all these protesters the past 8 years for the “Deporter in Chief” ?
“Extreme vetting of Muslims began in 2008 under a programme dubbed the Controlled Application Review and Resolution Policy, also known as CARRP. Shrouded in secrecy and barely publicised by the media, CARRP authorises special vetting by the FBI of persons thought to pose a terrorism threat. As a practical matter, all of the immigrants subjected to CARRP are Muslim or perceived to be Muslim.”
“Whereas President Obama succeeded in his programmes by keeping them secret, Trump prides himself on “telling it like it is”. For Muslim Americans, Trump’s repudiation of politically correct language may have a silver lining, by stripping away the artful denials of discrimination in American immigration policy and demonstrating the pervasive anti-Muslim bias.”
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/11/barack-obama-trumpesque-policies-161117100459890.html
Based on the news stories so far, it seems the victims of the rule changes are people from those seven countries who cooperated with the US occupation, were granted refugee status to protect them from reprisals and are now being sent back to their country of origin. Basically, the US is turning over anyone who worked for them.
‘Cooperate with us and we’ll betray you’ is probably not a great recruiting slogan. However, at least the US government is consistent and treats its foreign employees in a similar manner to its American ones.
The Onion discovered this plot three years ago but the US, despite the advance warning, appears to be unable to stop it.
@Thementalist and other DNC hacks such as may be reading here
I wrote this about you: You were warned, and now we all have President Trump because in your hubris you ignored Greenwald’s and other’s warnings.
Everybody was pretending that Mrs. Clinton was a great candidate, but Mr. Greenwald wouldn’t play along, and the spell was broken. Mr. Greenwald has to own that.
That has always been Mr. Greenwald’s problem. He never plays along with anybody. Such a bad sport. Such a perfect journalist. But such a terrible sport indeed.
What a complete and total fabrication on your part Mona.
READERS: About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican who said he was a Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board.
“READERS: About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican who said he was a Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board.”
Just in case folks missed it the first 50 times …
-Mona- is the most disruptive commenter here. She highlights and amplifies each mole hill to a mountain.
Says the fixated obsessive and antisemite whom Greenwald had to tell this to for the second time, because you keep lying and calling others by my name and insisting every other account here is my sock:
Which part is the fabrication? You don’t remember Glen writing about how Sanders is the better candidate against Trump? I don’t know what’s in your head Craig. You must think we’re reading whatever it is you’re understanding.
Sorry, no. My beef with Greenwald’s articles about the candidates throughout 2016 is not that he criticised HRC (unrelentingly). It is that he did not extend the same to Trump.
The ENTIRE media, bar fox news, was berating and ridiculing Trump. What you are saying is that all Glenn had to do was parrot that same stuff and Hillary would have won?
Why don’t you Democrats take some responsibility for nixing the Sanders campaign, for treating his delegates like shit at the convention, for telling the Sanders voters to go away and fellating college educated republicans, for running the worst campaign in history. Maybe then you’d learn something and find a way to win in the future. This Greenwald bashing is nothing more than patting the Democratic party on the back for losing. Fire a Democratic Party official first and then come back here and scream at Glenn. Fire SOMEBODY. You can start with Chuck Schumer.
I’m not a Democrat.
My point is that many people respect Greenwald as an independent, authentic, truthful voice in a way that they do not respect the MSM. His unwillingness to publish a single article attacking Trump in the way that he attacked Clinton – not a single one! – helped create, at best, false equivalence and, at worst, (erroneous, I think) evidence that Greenwald backed Trump. You could see that here on the Intercept as more and more Trump-lovers came to the site and flooded the comments section.
All that you say about the Democrats being hopeless and ineffectual and corrupt etc etc is true. The party needs to look inward etc etc. I can’t stand Chuck Schumer. But it doesn’t get Greenwald off the hook.
Glenn Greenwald warned everyone what to do to avoid a President Trump. In their hubris, they refused to listen.
What GG did was publish article after article attacking HRC and promoting Bernie. All well and good. But once Bernie was not a candidate, what then? In his hubris it was beneath GG to publish an anti-Trump article.
greenwald supported clinton rather than trump, and he has criticised trump unrelentingly also. if he criticised clinton more, and i’m not sure he did, it was probably because the mainstream media was so fawningly subservient that they refrained from meaningful criticism of clinton, by and large.
“Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, UAE — are excluded from the ban list because the tyrannical regimes that run those countries are close U.S. allies. Conversely, the countries that are included — Syria, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Iran, Sudan, and Yemen — have produced virtually no such terrorists; as the Cato Institute documented on Friday night: “Foreigners from those seven nations have killed zero Americans in terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1975 and the end of 2015.”
Looks like it isn’t a Muslim travel ban but a ban (and bombing) on countries that are enemies of Saudi Arabia
(or at least a percentage of enemies that’s similar to the percentage of 9/11 hijackers that were from Saudi Arabia.)
Are you arguing the list is wrong or too short ?
Donald Trump made it clear he would ban all Muslims from entering the US. You guys ( Greenwald and co.) were too busy complaining about Clinton taking money from the Saudis to build hospitals for the poor.
After you spent years describing the US as a terrorist state you cannot complain about the president who does not care about refugees. Now shut up and watch Trump keep his promises.
There is some rule somewhere that if I call Clinton out for her warmongering, criminal ways, that I am not allowed to be critical of Trump’s presidency, with all the criminal activities and bullshit activities that are sure to follow from it?? Who made this rule? Did you just come up with it? You should write a book on this rule.
Instead of trying to change the Democratic Party for the better, all you people do is waste your time blaming voters. Keep crying about Ralph Nader.
There is much to what you say. But, despite TI’s many great qualities, you will never EVER find introspection or self-doubt from Greenwald and co.
Trump didn’t ban all Muslims. He banned people from Syria and “countries of concern”. The Saudis are not included in the ban. Trump used the legal foundation set up by Obama to create the ban.
That was just one of the reasons decent people opposed him.
The Saudis were busy bombing poor hospitals in Yemen with Clinton’s support while she was taking their money.
That was just one of the reasons decent people opposed her.
Nonsense; just look:
The US has committed many terrorist acts.
A President who doesn’t care about refugees is inhumane and terrible. We must pressure him to do right.
No, but thank you for the suggestion.
Well said, Doc.
I don’t know about “whitewashing the seeds”, brother Glenn.
What about the Muslim loving countries that ban Israeli passports? Why do you care so much about Muslims – they see Christians and Jews as the infidel who must convert or die. Why would you support people like that who are out for your own destruction?
Obviously we care most about what our country does. How could it be any other way?
Calling Sufi Muslim.
Say, I had not known you see us all as infidels who must convert or die. Not until Dj told us so. I learned something today!
I saw Dj’s ridiculous post and decided not to dignify it with a response.
The great irony is, you are likely the most centered and deeply decent person commenting here.
DocHollywood, Mona, sillyputty etc.
“………Calling [Greenwald a] Trump [supporter] is [my] attempt to deflect from [my inability to comprehend the simple fact that opposition to x is not support for anything not x]…..”
Normally I might agree with that statement if there were two neocons running for President. However, Trump is not an ideologue or a “neocon”. He has pushed detent with Russia extremely hard despite Putin ordering DNC emails turned over to WikiLeaks. Trump is an anti-establishment candidate and (supposedly) a non-interventionist. These are big reasons for the alt left and radical antiwar libertarians to “support” Trump – not just oppose HRC. So I strongly disagree with DocHollywood on this point. Greenwald sums it up very nicely why he “supports” the Presidency of Trump over HRC (and I mean support):
“……..It is not hard to understand why the CIA preferred Clinton over Trump. Clinton was critical of Obama for restraining the CIA’s proxy war in Syria and was eager to expand that war, while Trump denounced it. Clinton clearly wanted a harder line than Obama took against the CIA’s long-standing foes in Moscow, while Trump wanted improved relations and greater cooperation. In general, Clinton defended and intended to extend the decades long international military order on which the CIA and Pentagon’s preeminence depends, while Trump — through a still-uncertain mix of instability and extremist conviction — posed a threat to it……..”
Those are reasons why the alt left supports Trump which is in the interests of world peace i.e., rein in the American war machine. John Chuckman writes at Consortiumnews (today; “The Tests Ahead for Trump https://consortiumnews.com/2017/01/29/the-tests-ahead-for-trump/):
“………Trump needs a filtering mechanism for his bubbling, teeming thoughts because his better ideas and notions are the ones that promise to mark him for greatness. I include here the end of America’s interfering and overthrowing foreign governments, the end of the terrible Bush-Obama Neocon Wars that have killed a couple of million and created millions of desperate refugees, and his bold efforts to bring jobs to millions of Americans living in what can only be called squalor. Those are the goals of a great leader…….”
Trump even has the potential for greatness (forget about the banning of Muslims or saying the worst things about Mexicans!). Again, this is quite a common phenomenon in certain political circles – supporting the most racist and bigoted candidates like Trump to change the status quo in Washington and make positive steps toward world peace. It is about support – albeit Trump is not the ideal candidate obviously. To suggest otherwise ( as DocHollywood did) is a complete fabrication.
Why does the top photo for this page include Linda Sarsour, a woman who has promoted sharia law and praised Saudi Arabia’s woman’s rights records?
Because she’s a Muslim, dumbass. (And more than a little photogenic, if I may say so…)
Unless you provide links, with evidence of this charge, I’m going to assume you’re lying about Linda Sarsour. I’m open minded. Try me with some evidence.
I believe she pointed out the (true) fact that Saudi Arabia gives female workers substantial paid maternity leave. But I suspect her real crime is being anti-Zionist.
Linda Sarsour is a civil libertarian and feminist, and fantastic woman. You are full of shit.
We need to ship the Schumers, Pelosis (and their sons from Countrywide), Clintons, Bushes, Bob Gates, and all the other globalist swine to Pakisan, and Saudi Arabia, and Syria, etc., (or maybe to Abu Dhabi’s snuff film industry hq) since they so embrace their refugees — which have been created during the Bush/Obama Administrations!
No. Those suffering, terrified people must be accepted in America. To our great shame, we turned hundreds of European Jews away at the harbor in 1939, many of whom were murdered in places like Auschwitz and Sobibor. “Never again” means never again for anyone.
Why do we have to accept them?
The phrase “never again” was attached to the activities of the Nazis to engage in mass executions of a persecuted minority.
Until you just made that up, it has never been attached to immigration policies of any country at any time.
I “made up” nothing. This country turned away Jews fleeing persecution, and many of those were murdered in places like Sobibór. This country now turns away Syrians (and other Muslims), many of of whom will be murdered if forced to return to Syria. “Never again” applies to all people needing refuge from killing fields.
The Unites States is a nation of immigrants, as well as the descendants of those whom our forebears enslaved and ethnically cleansed. We have some decent values, but have also committed great crimes. Now, we are committing another crime by discriminating against Muslims hailing from countries we’ve often done huge harm to. And doing so in deep violation of one of our better principles.
This is an ugly time for America.
America, well really mostly the republicans, after WWII attempted to exclude European Jewish refugees from entering the country. Truman called the Displaced Persons Act of 1948 anti-Semitic as it attempted to restrict as much as possible Jewish refugees from coming in.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=12942
and turned away at least one ship of jewish refugees during ww2, consigning them to the camps.
“It is difficult to envision anything that helps ISIS’s overarching objective, its central narrative, more than Trump’s immigration ban aimed at Muslims while privileging Christian refugees. ”
Great piece, but I wish he’d started with the above attention-grabbing sentence, rather than ending with it. It’s a perfect statement of our problem.
Every time Glenn decides to opine on the subject of religious ideology (and, ironically, he is almost exclusively concerned with one faith, it seems), he just cannot help but expose, through his dishonest smears, the seething bigotry that he harbors towards outspoken atheists and critics of Islam. Shameful.
Unsupported ad hominems are reminders that not all atheists are rational.
Tragic.
The headline stopped me. Culmination? This is only the prelude, we fear. How long will you underestimate what Trump is capable of?
Just curious. Did you take the same position when Obama introduced a 6 month immigration ban?
It’s different when dim dems do it. Morally superior, etc.
Just curious, is this the first Glenn Greenwald piece you’ve ever read? Greenwald is one of the very, very few even handed journalists working these days. He has hardly been light on the Democrats the past six or seven years (I’ll admit, it did take him a bit to realize that Obama was Bush’s third term).
“As my colleague Murtaza Hussain described in 2015, the ultimate strategic and propaganda goal of ISIS is to eliminate the “gray zone” for Western Muslims, “generating hostility between domestic Muslim populations and the broader societies that they live in” so as to convince both sides that they should be at war rather than striving for harmony and assimilation.”
It is also to be added that this is the strategy of Bibi Netanyahu and friends with respect to Jews. Hence Trump is their man, the American Bibi.
So Trump was responsible for 9/11, Ft. Hood, the Boston Marathon bombing, San Bernardino, Orlando, Ohio, etc., etc., etc.?
Glad you explained that to us . . .
Typical Trumper strawman and misdirection. Below I extensively discuss the “gray zone” ISIS strategy and why Trump is ISIS new BFF.
The State of California considers boycotting the federal government.
Pfft. California officials would be more apt to become an organized chain gang.
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
Yet [again I claim that] Trump obtained unique support [because] Greenwald wr[ote something critical about] Hillary Clinton.
It was Hillary’s fealty to Israel and hawkish foreign policies [that I loved. Of course her warmongering ways] drove th[ose who oppose] “endless war” [to oppose her. But to an unthinking aut buf (authoritarian buffoon), anyone who opposed Clinton supported] Donald Trump.
{Time-out} [Here is a random thought that lends no support to my straw man:] Already Trump has supported more “fealty” to Israel than any President in recent history. {Time-in}
In a post-election article, Greenwald defends Trump from the “deep state” and its support for HRC providing more insight into his opposition to Hillary[, not] insights into the hopes for a Trump Presidency – despite [my] “instability and extremist conviction.”
{Time-out} [Here is another random thought:] Elections matter. {Time-in}
Calling [Greenwald a] Trump [supporter] is [my] attempt to deflect from [my inability to comprehend the simple fact that opposition to x is not support for anything not x]
Did [my defects arise from congenital] cholera or gonorrhea – or possibly both?
Very well done – excellent summation.
LOL One of your best, Doc.
Funny ?
Is the Honorary DNC Bitch named ” Deborah Wassermann Shultz
still in CONGRESS ?
That’s what I call FUNNY
Is Doc serious or delirious ?
Where do you live ?
Your internet correspondence is deserving o a FACE-TO-FACE response !
Excellent and humorous as usual!
Good one, Doc!
Jake Tapper mentions Sufi Muslims as a minority group. Not sure if he was implying that the Sufi Muslims would be classified as an exception because they are persecuted.
Hmm!
HEY ,, WHAT ABOUT THAT CATHOLIC CROWD ? ,,, NEXT THING YOU KNOW THEY GONNA BE ARRESTING ALL NON-BELIEVERS !!! LAWD HAVE MERCY !!!!
Sufism is dancing meditation . You dance and try to turn off all the ongoing noise and find >Self . Tried to that in 1974 and went stark-raving-mad !
The doctor said You’re OK to go
and here I am .
You present like less than a 1% of the realities of Sufism.
Not sure what your objectives were, but perhaps you need to try something that suits you for your objectives.
“Introduction to Sufi Doctrine”, by Titus Burckhardt, at https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Sufi-Doctrine-Spiritual-Classics/dp/1933316500/
And You ?
Don’t try your little that linking crap on this old man . I’ve been around !
(Even the hardcore bigots have a coherent, if repugnant, point of view.)
And you are tried and true b>stale hard core shit BIGOT
Sorry, the link was not for you. It was for others who might find it useful. My apology for not making it clear in my previous reply to you.
Not sure what you read in my post. But I am sure I deserve it.
Sorry
Sometimes after the 5th shot this 78 year old mind runs wild !
Which is why a 6th shot is a must. ;-)
The doctor was wrong. You’re still not OK.
But it would definitely be good if you were to go away and stop spamming and crapflooding these threads.
‘Trump is not a Russian phenomenon, nor an Italian one, nor Latin American: He is distinctly and consummately American, merely the most extreme face yet from America’s endless war on terror and its post-2008 lurch toward oligarchy. Pretending that Trump is some grand aberration, some radical departure from U.S. history and values, is simply a deceitful way of whitewashing what we have collectively endorsed and allowed.’
For me, this is the most important point and one that we must get across to our friends and colleagues.
My comments below address a similar point. However, I do not agree that Trump is a distinctively American phenomenon – he is distinctively a phenomenon brought about by the lurch toward oligarchy.
At the base level, I do not find Americans distinctively different from other human beings – most human beings respond to fear, doubt, uncertainty, and the “savior” in much the same way. Trump simply happens to be an American con artists that has appeared at the “right time” for being a con. That is, during a time where we are much closer to a banana republic, and fear has brought the worse to the fore in a larger group of Americans
Hi JayZ,
I’m in the UK so I’m not well versed with American history as others, but I do agree that people are the same the world over, we respond to fears and doubts in much the same way. The UK press is just as keen to print every terrorist scare story to the full and the last few months has seen the most heinous anti-privacy laws being passed by our Parliament because of that magnified fear being accepted by the public.
Why I quoted that line of text is that here in the UK the Obama legacy has already been written and it does not reflect many of the policies he put in place.
So now we find those objecting to Trump do so as though he is a ‘one-off’ extremist but the refuse to look at the bigger picture, that certain countries have been targeted by at least the last three presidents with dreadful consequences.
I am concerned that those liberal objections I’m witnessing here will only last as long as Trump does and that any real change in general Western foreign policy will fail.
I am afraid your claim may be on the mark in so far as “liberal” (in quotation marks) are concerned. The same can be said about “conservatives”. However, there is hope because some liberals/conservatives are rational thinkers.
Just a week ago Greenwald was suggesting this would-be Mussolini was the subject of a witch hunt perpetrated by the “Deep State.” Of course, he ignored elements of the deep state (is the FBI not the deep state?) that actively subverted our democracy in support of Trump.
Greenwald, like Assange, sided with obvious white nationalists and fascists in their attempt to critique the mainstream left. Neither men are honest enough to admit it, but we will not forget.
AKA, neoliberal Democrats, who elected Trump.
Right, those of us who voted for Hillary are actually the ones who elected Trump.
Not the alt-left like Greenwald who actually defended Trump as fervently as white nationalists and fascists. It is unfortunate when perfect is the enemy of good; in Greenwald’s case, he supported evil in the naive pursuit of perfect.
i’m a bit surprised that you characterize greenwald’s advocacy of voting for clinton over trump as an example of supporting evil in the naive pusuit of perfect (sic).
This isn’t Glenn Greenwald; it’s centrist Matt Yglesias, on 11/10/16 at Vox:
The whole Democratic Party is now a smoking pile of rubble
Those of you who supported Hillary over any other Democrat, including Bernie Sanders, elected DonaldTrump. Those of you who spent the months before the general election doing all you could to alienate the Bernie cohort, including picking Tim Kaine as running mate — YOU elected Donald Trump.
Internalize this: Hillary Clinton is not “the good” (and Bernie Sanders is not “the perfect”). She is the extremely bad.
Until the Democrats rid the party of the deep rot of extremely bad, it’s going to continue to lose decisively on the federal, state and municipal levels. This is an–all-but-dead party, and some of you are too fucking stupid to see that. Unless and until you do, and undertake the radical makeover that will make the party worth supporting, Democrats will continue to lose in enormous numbers.
AP Top News: Trump wants to enlist local police in immigration crackdown
WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE ( preferably dead )
Sheriff Joe Arpaio
For Murder in the highest degree !!
This is one SOB !!
There is no “Muslim ban.” There is a ban from countries with high levels of terrorist activity. It’s not our fault those just happen to be almost entirely Islamic…
as the article you apparently didn’t read makes clear, they excluded the counties that have produced the most attacks.
Trumpya and Dubya squeaked into office by a fingernail and immediately jumped into action changing the world!….straight to hell, sure, but hey, at least they do it with gusto!!….Obummer won office in 2 (not 1, but TWO) landslides, on a mandate to change the world for the better, and ever so grudgingly fulfilled absolutely none of those promises…
That’s the difference between Republicans and Democrats…..Republicans do exactly what their billionaire overlords tell them to do, and Democrats do exactly what their billionaire overlords tell them to do….it’s as simple as that….different dance, same sheet music…
Obummer and Billary actually took the trouble to hold us by the hand, smile in our faces, pat our heads, stroll us tenderly to the precipice and then act SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU, upon turning their backs and blowing us straight over the cliff, with their crème brulee farts making hardly a sound…
Trumpya’s more honest than that….he just grabs the American people by the [hair] and flings us over the cliff….how refreshing to finally see with our own eyes what Washington HONESTLY thinks of us, and that Barack’s 8 year puppet show of the powerlessness of the Presidency was just a colossal fckn charade…
So now there’s millions of Americans in the streets, on the rooftops, all across Facebook howling with outrage at their own cluelessness and laziness over how we got here, to this ‘suddenly’ terrible place of “America the opposite-of-Beautiful, with specious skies and amber waves of pain”….this is why God invented mirrors, folks….how did we get here??….answer: letting the days go by!….haha!!….i like it, this smells right…..no more kicking cans and playing hopscotch with our decades-long downward drift as a nation, essentially proving the allegory of frogs in a kettle on a stove……stop crying, everyone, and thank the Donald for kicking US in the can and waking us the hell up, to America finally at the breaking point…..and the only thing that will save us is that person in the mirror…..who are we??….let us prove now how “America the Beautiful” we really are or aren’t….
The Somali foreign workers single handedly shut down a meat packing plant in Alberta a few years ago. Simply because they wouldn’t wash their hands after using the bathroom. And you ate that.
Are we a nation of bigots, or a banana republic?
If Mr. Trump can “rule” at will, then all checks and balances in the US Constitution are meaningless and we are no better than your average banana republic.
Trump received close to 60% of the vote. Perhaps it is true that he is a reflection of a vast undercurrent of American bigotry and racism.
James Madison considered the tyranny of the majority, what we have here is the tyranny of a powerful and corrupt minority.
Anyone care to guess what the Founding Fathers’ remedy?
Yeah The Founding Fathers
and the
The Founding Mothers ,, who nursed us
SAY KILL THE BASTARDS !!!
BUY A GUN TODAY AND KILL A COP FOR JESUS
————Brought to you by the—————-
EPA
There is no “Muslim ban.” There is a ban from countries with high levels of terrorist activity. It’s not our fault those just happen to be almost entirely Islamic…
checks and balances ?
Do you realize what your business trained mind tries to verbalize ?
GEEZ ,, CHECKS AND BALANCE
talk and walk straight ,
it’s MONEY !!
GET A GRIP !!
Mudbone, please stop polluting these threads with irrelevant, incoherent and visually-annoying nonsense.
In my 10-12 years as a GG commenter, I’ve never once urged or requested that any other commenter be banned. But Mudbone is getting really old really fast. (Even the hardcore bigots have a coherent, if repugnant, point of view.)
(Even the hardcore bigots have a coherent, if repugnant, point of view.)
Q.E.D.
He’s also been crapflooding egregiously and just as incoherently in Mackey’s thread. This really has to stop. The staff won’t be in until tomorrow morning, but another commenter has indicated they will be putting in a request.
I’ve not been here as long but I’m that same point w/Mudbone. I emailed the moderators yesterday.
BTW, Gator, some weeks ago Mudbone posted a “joke” about Jews and lampshades. I reported it and it was deleted. He was then (blessedly) silent for 4-5 days and I thought maybe his account had been banned. Possibly this is a recreated one.
“I reported it and it was deleted. ”
don’t tell me prayer doesn’t work, eh mona?
You retell the joke you had deleted. You in a sense are reposting disgusting material.
you’ve mentioned the lampshade at least three times since.
but your goal is attack the messenger, again and again, for something that has been removed … ever read the first amendment?
Mona is the most disruptive commenter on this board. She doesn’t just denounce people; she does so forcefully. It would be a net gain if Mona were banned.
I certainly do! And always shall denounce bigots, authoritarians and assorted bad actors. How amusing you think this is a bad thing, especially when done “forcefully.”
You sound just like the whiney-ass babies on Twitter who get all butthurt when Glenn (accurately) calls them “liars” or “imbeciles.” He’s so mean!!!111!11!!
now you are just foaming.
“I’ve never once urged or requested that any other commenter be banned.”
we know who is tasked with that …
funny how the thinnest skins appear on attorneys
you, mona, and rr, are the only ones to judge the viability of free speech
I agree mudbone should at least dial back the bold text
I rather read what mudbone has to say than read sock puppetry
imagine dealing with craigsummers using multiple handles
You’re bitching about me judging free speech? I’m a Jew and you’re a fucking anti-semite, and as noted above I’ve never tried to curb your expression here in any way shape or form. So, fuck you. (You’re right about attorneys though. They/we are a thin-skinned bunch in general.)
This isn’t in any way a free speech issue; The Intercept has every right to control the private space here. It’s about which comments are disruptive of the community without providing substantive debate. The majority of Mudbone’s qualifies, imo.
There were lot of complaints about crap-flooding when I first began posting here that weren’t really applicable – this one is, and if The Intercept doesn’t at enforce demonstrable abuses of reasonable policies, then the quality of the comment section suffers as a result.
Your contused insistence about Mona’s alleged sock-puppetry is another example of this – it simply isn’t happening.
That reminds me of a time back at Salon when I replied to some antisemitic asshole to denounce him. It’s the only time Glenn ever deleted me — my reply went with the deleted asshole’s post.
I emailed Glenn my outrage (not really) at his “censorship,” and he was deeply concerned, advising me he had heard I could sue him for violating my First Amendment rights.
Apparently, that’s a joke nuf wouldn’t and doesn’t get.
Another point: Even where the First Amendment does apply, courts limit speech by viewpoint-neutral “time, place and manner” restrictions. One cannot, e.g., drive through a residential neighborhood at 3 a.m. with a bullhorn demanding either: “Save the Widgetarians!” or “Fuck the Widgetarians!”
Nor may one disrupt the free speech of others. Similarly, crapflooding a discussion board with a constant flow of largely incoherent new, free-standing posts, as well as replies, pollutes the board and impinges on the ability of others to engage in conversation.
“Apparently, that’s a joke nuf wouldn’t and doesn’t get.”
Oh please. You’ve had many posts deleted for attacks on people. ask Seema.
You announce forcefully that someone is a bad person if your moral compass points in any direction.
You lack grade-school math skills and that’s why you went to law school without a BS.
I’m not saying you should not be allowed to practice law because of the deficiency, I’m saying you should have a big, red, warning label ‘use at your own risk.’
first, I agree Mudbone is not contributing a whole lot. He made a comment about killing a cop which I thought crossed the line.
But everyone, even the ‘targeted folks’, has a right to speak.
Yes, TI is correct to moderate repetitive invective or worse but Mona’s constant badgering of people into behaving as she sees fit or else she’ll have them banned, is really old. It is off-putting to any new visitor and unbecoming the attorney she portrays.
It prevents the discussion of anything too critical of Jews as defined by Mona. She started this with her explosive, forceful, denunciation of me for bringing up the question of who first put the Yellow Star on Jews and why. Most people believe it was Hitler but Napoleon, at the turn of the 19th century, lifted the longstanding requirement to wear the star.
That prompted a torrent of denunciation of me to others and it has never stopped. It slowed, thankfully, after the new comment policy was posted. (Mona’s constant attacks upon an identifiable person, telling others to not communicate with a person for their mental health short-comings, which I complained about, generated the policy)
How about craigsummers? He refuses to format in the most simple way and he is definitive for repetitive posts. oh well, scroll on.
I’ll not go into my complaint about multiple handles other than to say such behavior prevents the ability of one to scroll by an offending commenter until you’re half-way in. That sucks.
Gator, Doc and I denounce you as an antisemite and racist. We are not the only ones. Indeed, I became “forceful” about it after Gator posted a (justified) objection to the loud silence from the regulars as antisemitic commentary became increasingly common. He was right, and I stepped up my denunciations, including about you.
Now, about my aggressive commenting persona, a bit of history: Glenn and I met on CompuServe, at a rightwing site run by Heritage and National Review. He’d heard about me from a friend at NYU, whose wingnut mother was horrified by this “lady lawyer” who was so loud and supportive of gay rights and this female attorney even (gasp!) ridiculed drug prohibitionists.
Glenn had to see for himself, and we met. We became quite the team, and in due course a good number of the angry social conservatives — with whom we were our usual tepid selves — began a campaign to have us both banned. It failed.
So you see, nuf, my commenting style is what Glenn liked about me, and which he actually exceeded in exquisite execution. Neither of us suffers fools or knaves gladly; the fools and knaves find that extremely off-putting.
Too bad.
You conflate the emotional reward of forceful denunciation with substance.
Typical.
If I do make that conflation, so does Glenn.
“If I do make that conflation, so does Glenn.”
That’s a stretch.
Nope.
“Gator, Doc and I denounce you as an antisemite and racist.”
Well I denounce the two of you right back! :-)
This is false. As you are well aware, many of us had become so disgusted at the complete lack of moderation here we were working on an alternate site and were drafting our own sensible moderation rules. I and others had spirited exchanges with Glenn about the neglect, which was causing gross degradation of the quality of conversation here.
The particular likely mentally ill person you allude to was placed in pre-moderation to control the flood of constant paranoid and off-topic ranting. No site can permit comments to be overtaken by a person(s) literally unmoored from reality. My anger wasn’t so much at that suffering person but at the neglect that allowed them to run wild.
The powers that be at The Intercept huddled and decided to do something — you should not assume that whatever you were told by a staff person with whom you interacted represents the fullness or result of the moderation- policy discussion.
Many, many of us had been begging for moderating; my attempts to impose some control in its absence were a matter of desperation, and finally drove me a to work with others on another site. (If the Intercept staff didn’t care, I finally concluded, why should I?)
But now we have some ad hoc moderating going on, with something else apparently coming quite soon. What that is and how well it works will determine whether the separate project gets taken up again.
(And btw, when tinkering with the new moderation, they imposed a filter meant to prevent antisemitic posts like yours from posting. But they had to remove it because too many captures of reasonable use of the word “Jews” were occurring, and multiple of us got trapped in an automated ban meant for those who posted ugly sentiments about Jews. In other words, that was somewhat your fault.)
“This is false. …
The particular likely mentally ill person you allude to …”
You have attacked many commenters for their mental health. I cannot count the number of times I posted copies of you telling others to not comment to this person because …
You twirl in the wind. Glenn does not suffer fools gladly but that doesn’t equate to him not suffering you.
False. The closest that is to the truth is in the early years of this site when I ridiculed the Targeted Individuals, before I understood that many or most actually are clinically mentally ill. Initially, I’d thought them more akin to the UFO freaks who think they’ve been abducted to the Mother Ship.
Subsequent reading, however, showed me that this phenomenon is of concern to the psychiatric community because the Internet allows paranoid schizophrenics to find others online, where they then find reinforcement for the belief that their hallucinations as “real” — and where they adopt the “explanations” offered by their fellow sufferers.
This is a new phenomenon, and once I learned of it I adjusted my approach to the TIs here. Further, I publicly regretted (I think I actually apologized for) having previously proceeded ignorant of their tragic condition. Note, however, that not all of these are clinically ill. My best guess is, however, that it’s most.
” You have attacked many commenters for their mental health.”
mona responds “False. ”
Ask Seema what you said, several times, to her. She filed complaints and you were deleted.
” not all of these are clinically ill. My best guess is, however, that it’s most.”
And you keep reminding us that it’s most of them but some are normal …
That is back-handed character assassination en masse. Your bemoaning is utterly disrespectful.
That is why I dislike your bullshit; you target, with regularity, the most vulnerable.
Sure, to the extent that they aren’t disruptive of the community and are providing substantive debate.
Ignore Mona. Move on.
For what it’s worth, I breathlessly posted this (am I tectonically crap-flooding now?) on here several years ago.
Note: We’ve all gotten better since then.
********************
My point has been a simple one: which is that it is not OK to mock, chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section. Other criteria, yes. That. No.
To my knowledge, no one on the Intercept staff, its pseudo-staff, or the posters themselves has ever publicly and courteously asked any of the more voluminous posters to reign in their word-count; nor has anyone made that effort with those who post more posts than most.
Had these things happened in the beginning on what we all recognize to be a bold, yet fledgling effort, and one coming none too soon despite many obstacles and glitches to be ironed out, the tone and tenor would have been different, and for a much desired reason – empathy.
In other words, the Intercept is a place that I wanted to be – due more or less in equal measure to the subject matter at hand, and because of the honest, adversarial reporters that I knew I would find here. What I did not like was the ethos of the comments section – which rather than being refreshingly adversarial, was, to be honest, degrading quickly into the juvenile.
[…]
This is all because of the brutally honest and multifaceted take these people provide us of our world, our politics, and of those that are affected by the machinations of the few and the powerful, at the expense of the many and the less so.
This is all with the hope that such dialog as they bring, even though it must be repeated all too often, will at some point tip the balance of scales more towards the middle, where most of us have to live.
With First Look Media and the Intercept, what I found was a site and a news source that I felt was doing the news and had the information, the resources, and the culture needed to affect much needed change; change that will literally reach across our entire planet – and in the end was disappointed, to put it mildly, that many of the commenter’s, and some of the pseudo-moderators, were not of the same caliber as their hosts.
Initially what I wanted, and what I will still continue strive for, is an adversarial, yet more mature online community to share the news that affects us all.
That I have no problem standing up for myself and my viewpoint is apparent – and that I want a more mature environment to do it in is the goal. I still think that The Intercept site is improving and moving in that direction, and if it takes shaming others on here when rational arguments won’t suffice in order to rid the place of the idea that it is OK to mock and deride others in order to silence them, then so be it.
So to those ends I’ll travel – and like Greenwald and Taibbi I’ll be as uncompromisingly persistent in ensuring that what I consider are thoughtful and insightful voices do have their say on here.
If that gets me booted from here, then so be it.
I’ll not bow down and be censured by anyone that doesn’t have the aptitude, the common courtesy, and the simple human dignity to allow others to say their piece on here; nor will I stand around with my hands in my pockets while others face banishment or are simply willed by group-think to “go away” for fear of retribution, fear of reprisal, or due to the mockery or contempt of others.
The one thing most people on here do realize is that the shit is hitting the fan, and that without the adversarial journalism and the accurate information that we need to make informed decisions, we are all going to even more screwed than we are right now.
So bring an argument and bring a rebuttal – not a rebuke for speaking – and for goodness sake, be civilized. Because if we all can’t bring it together, right here and right now, that will be our next task – rebuilding what’s left after the chips have fallen where they may.
Best regards,
Sillyputty
********************************
I’m sorry if it seems I’m making this all about me, but it’s all I got.
Yikes! ” tectonically crap-flooding” – spell-check!
Glenn did that, repeatedly, both at his first blog, and then at Salon. One whom he’d banned as a crapflooder at Salon, then showed up again when he went to the Guardian. When this site started, here she was. You may be thinking of the response several of us had to her presence here, and not realizing there was long history with her. In any event, Glenn banned her, again. (She was here briefly again, just a week or so ago. When it became apparent who she likely was, she again left.)
At Salon, Glenn did ask one fellow in particular to stop flooding comments with his prose poems. He couldn’t or wouldn’t. So Glenn banned him.
About this:
That’s unworkable. If a person is posting mock-worthy comments, it’s not up to the rest of us to worry s/he might be made to feel bad commenting here when s/he is mocked, so bad they leave. If they are crapflooding psychotic delusions, the site has a responsibility to ban them; this is a political discussion board, and not a mental health forum where people should work out their issues. Protecting the integrity of the political discussion — by disallowing those incapable of reasoned debate — is necessary.
Finally, a great deal could be resolved if people kept their flame wars confined to a single sub-thread or two. That makes it easier for the uninterested to scroll right past the whole uninteresting (for them) thing. I very seldom post a new, standalone to continue flaming a detractor. Others are not so considerate of board hygiene.
Below you tell people to “fuck off”. (not me)
Where does that fall in the world decorum?
That comment was one I made several years ago, addressing the comment section at the Intercept. As far as I know, it was true then and has been since, although it may have changed.
Regarding the “mock, chide, deride, or ridicule” assertion; this is constantly being misrepresented. I have participated in much of that, I have no interest in preventing any of it, to the extent that I don’t use it to keep their thoughts off of this comment section.
There is a policy here (utilized or not) specifically to address crapflooding and other behaviors “which are disruptive of the community without providing substantive debate.”
Folks need to use that. Ridiculing someone with these or similar issues is not an effective means of protecting the integrity of the political discussion, it’s self-serving and clutters up the comment section unnecessarily.
Your alluding to it being somehow concerning that others “might be made to feel bad commenting here when s/he is mocked, so bad they leave” is really and truly beside the point.
Am I upsetting you Douggie ?
Are we a nation of bigots, or a banana republic?
I would say BOTH
but the banana republic thing is questionable !
Do I win a cookie ?
“Apprehend”? Glenn, really? hard to read past this first sentence and have much respect for your opinion and/or writing. Try for basic grammar standards and proper word usage?
@Doug Salzmann
Customs agents ignore judge, enforce Trump’s travel ban: ACLU
AS I said, I don’t see a lot of salvation coming from civil servants if Trump refuses to accept court decisions. The FBI? pffft
Civil Servants ?
Mona my dear ,, the word is COPS
Just vote the bastards out , That works every time ! Or better yet , Write a fuckin long winded article , with long winded words !!
Well, Mona, there are civil servants and then there are cops. ICE agents are cops and their favorite thing in life is having the power to hassle, detain and deport people, for any reason they can cook up.
Of course that crew is siding with Donald Dick ‘Tater.
Greenwald writes:
“……..Trump is not a Russian phenomenon, nor an Italian one, nor Latin American: He is distinctly and consummately American, merely the most extreme face yet from America’s endless war on terror and its post-2008 lurch toward oligarchy. Pretending that Trump is some grand aberration, some radical departure from U.S. history and values, is simply a deceitful way of whitewashing what we have collectively endorsed and allowed………BUT THIS MUSLIM ban……… is nonetheless different in significant degree if not in kind……… ”
Yet Trump obtained unique support from the antiwar, anti-establishment left despite promises by Trump during the campaign to do exactly what he is doing today – banning Muslims! Greenwald writes (June 22, 2016, “Hillary Clinton’s likely Pentagon chief already advocating for more bombing and intervention” http://interc.pt/28TyheD by @ggreenwald):
“…………Even U.S. military officials have said that these sorts of no-fly or no-bomb guarantees Flournoy is promising — which Hillary Clinton herself has previously advocated — would risk a military confrontation with Russia……..It’s long been beyond doubt that Clinton intends to embark upon a far more militaristic path than even Obama forged — which is saying a lot given that the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner has bombed seven predominantly Muslim countries in seven years. Repeatedly, Clinton has implicitly criticized Obama for excessive hostility toward Israel, and she has vowed more uncritical support for Israel and to move closer to Netanyahu. Just yesterday, Clinton surrogates battled Sanders’s appointees in the Democratic Platform Committee meeting over Israel and Palestine, with Clinton’s supporters taking an even more hard-line position than many right-wing Israeli politicians……..”
It was Hillary’s fealty to Israel and hawkish foreign policies which drove the alt left to support the alternative to “endless war” – Donald Trump. Already Trump has supported more “fealty” to Israel than any President in recent history.
In a post-election article, Greenwald defends Trump from the “deep state” and its support for HRC providing more insight into his opposition to Hillary (“The Deep State Goes to War With President-Elect, Using Unverified Claims, as Democrats Cheer”):
“……..It is not hard to understand why the CIA preferred Clinton over Trump. Clinton was critical of Obama for restraining the CIA’s proxy war in Syria and was eager to expand that war, while Trump denounced it. Clinton clearly wanted a harder line than Obama took against the CIA’s long-standing foes in Moscow, while Trump wanted improved relations and greater cooperation. In general, Clinton defended and intended to extend the decades long international military order on which the CIA and Pentagon’s preeminence depends, while Trump — through a still-uncertain mix of instability and extremist conviction — posed a threat to it……..”
Greenwald provides insights into the hopes for a Trump Presidency – despite Trump’s “instability and extremist conviction”. Elections matter. Calling Trump “the rotted fruit that inevitably sprouts from such fetid roots” is an attempt to deflect from the alt left’s “support” for Trump and his widely proclaimed promise to ban Muslims – and other extremist philosophies. Did we get cholera or gonorrhea – or possibly both?
I’m sure Hillary’s immediate Muslim ban would have been just as bad as Trump’s, probably worse…
“Did we get cholera or gonorrhea – or possibly both?”
Put a condom on it already. You’re spreading disease again.
Craig’s a demented authoritarian who said he was voting for Trump. He ardently supports torture and refuses to state anything approving about the 4th Amendment. (When such types spew about being “anti-American” it’s laughable; they actively despise the best things about the U.S.)
Authoritarian neocons like him are now Hillary/DNC buddies. Hillary actively courted them and many have embraced her. The revolting Craig Summers of this nation are entirely suitable pals for the neoliberal, Hillary crowd. His inane accusations directed at progressives are almost exactly paralleled by the #StillWithHer dead-enders.
This creation of the “alt-left” category has been a boon to pigeon-holers. There’e a new “alt-right” category? Well, ipso-facto then, there must be a counter to this, or else the big-bad world simply becomes too unmanageable. We must maintain the balance of power.
The only motive for the folks who practice the pathology of pigeonholing is to allow them to decide who’s with them and who’s against – it certainly hasn’t been used to determine how to better address human suffering here at home or around the globe. And how about spreading democracy? Spreading hypocrisy is what’s going on, but the actual results be-damned.
Explaining the world by perceived motive makes these folks feel more comfortable; as if labeling humans as to why they think they do what they do gives more insight into how they can protect themselves from these “threats”- failing miserably in understanding that whatever the motivation, the real threat comes from not addressing the root causes: the denial of basic human rights.
Dealing with concerns that affect “all of us” really isn’t what this is about.
Humans have been reacting pretty predictably for tens of thousands of years to the stressors resulting from interaction with each other; this pathological penchant to define them by labeling them does nothing to help recognize and address the problems, it’s a just a soothing balm for the insecurities felt by the CraigSummers and the Trumpians of the world.
That “alt-left” thing hasn’t gotten much traction, notwithstanding the Hillarybots who have desperately tried to make it one. They’ve hurled it at Glenn a few times, but not so much lately.
More recently he’s purported to be this thing called an “accelerationist,” which in my era was advocating “heightening the contradictions” by voting in the worst of the right. In my view that’s immoral, certainly if one isn’t part of one of the groups who could expect to greatly suffer.
What Glenn and many are arguing — which is quite distinct — is that given that against all predictions and most polling Trump won anyway, we should see a “silver lining” in the burgeoning of energized activism. More numbers of radicalized and politically active civil libertarians and advocates of social justice is a very good thing. It would be folly not to exploit that in order to defend against accusations of being an “accelerationist.”
“…this thing called an “accelerationist,”
I’ve been labeled that as well, and those that do so do it for the self-serving reasons already stated. I’ve also thought that, although we’ll never know if Hillary’s America would be better for us all, any substantive change affecting how we actually treat our fellow citizens or those our policies impact around the world will only come from a broad swath of Americans actually experiencing the impact of the racist and xenophobic policies Trump is now ignorantly trying to implement.
Identity politics, writ large.
Identity politics in the United States began with white protestants; he who was a white protestant was (and for many still is) superior. Intersectionalism makes more moral and political sense, for it rejects as primary the identity foisted on various victims by the white Christina majority as a central political reality.
It must be said, and pressed hard, that black lives specifically do matter,, but only becasue the majority does not include them in the universalist belief that all lives matter. The white majority set the terms of these identities, and to the extent those terms must be fought against, yes some identity-specific arguments and allegiances are properly made. But they are not the ultimate political truth.
Well said again Mona. The thing that bugs me about disparaging references (from the right or left) to “identity politics” is the too-common failure to acknowledge that white Christian Americans have long been and still are the foremost practitioners of such politics, to great deleterious effect, and that the “identity politics” of minority groups is forged in response to that of the majority.
I recently had a difficult exchange with a family member who is not really a Trump supporter, but he’s less than sympathetic to black lives matter. His father was an Irish cop (now retired). This is part of what I wrote to him:
“4. Other non-Caucasians (The word “other” because numbers 1 & 2 were not considered white)”
Of course they were considered White.
The fact the number preceding #4 was “BLACKS” has escaped your knowledge. You seem to believe when there is a sequence of numbers it is perfectly acceptable to just ignore one of them if it helps your contrived narrative.
You are a racist and antisemite with no authority to opine or pronounce on this matter. And by the way, that enumerated list is not original with me. I simply omitted the citation here. That Catholics and Jews were once not considered white is widely known among well-educated, politically literate people.
Moreover, once at the office, Glenn stated he wasn’t sure he was white. I explained to him when and how it changed, and that he is so considered now.
Mona
“……..What Glenn and many are arguing — which is quite distinct — is that given that against all predictions and most polling Trump won anyway, we should see a “silver lining” in the burgeoning of energized activism………”
Greenwald (and your good self) might see the good in energized activism, however, the back door support for Trump is about changing the establishment or “deep state” and their support for the interventionist policies associated with the neocons and liberal interventionists (like HRC which is why you so vehemently opposed HRC). It is truly about support for Trump – not some silver lining because he happened to win. That’s bullshit Mona. You are just distancing yourself from your support for Trump and the backlash against Muslims in general and refugees in particular.
In that respect, Greenwald is not an accelerationist either because Greenwald has hope that Trump will change the status quo in Washington. He is not alone within the radical left when it comes to the deep state. As I have documented, plenty on the extreme left also supported Trump as an alternative to the hawkish HRC – including Assange.
Thanks.
READERS: About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican who said he was a Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board.
CraigSummers jumps the shark (a gimmick in an attempt to keep viewers’ interest)…again.
Wow.
“accelerationist “[sic]
word for the day …
Thanks.
Glenn just tweeted what is applicable to both you and Craig:
you have no snark-o-meter, apparently, so you lump me in with craigsummers … that’s just foolish.
And a gratuitous attack but that is what Mona does with the regularity of harpie.
What constitutes banishment again?
Shorter craigsummers: You dirty hippies didn’t love Hillary enough! Therefore you have to put up with everything Trump.
Yah….no. I’m a 55 year old, cellulite-dappled white woman. And now a committted Berniebro. Because not-good-enough is not good enough, irrespective of whether it came packaged as the Dowager Duchess of Democratic Rectitude……… or as The Donald: Prince of Pettiness, Marquis de Pee, Knight of the Order of the Grossenluge.
There is no alt left. I have never heard anyone on the left call themselves alt left. Using this term is an attempt to conflate the lunacy of the self-described alt right with the real left.
Orange you stoked that my balls are so bulbous?!
Ban Trump.
Yeah ,, we want a recount !!
NOW YOU’RE GONNA GET IT
The new “El Hefe” is gonna shove that smartphone up your lower shit opening ,,,
OUCH!
It’s a little early in the day to be rolling around in the mud, the blood and the beer, mudbone. Are you stuck in an airport?
What do you want when you act this way?
*I don’t need no stinking recount … I know a babayka when I see one.
Kudos for the Johnny Cash reference, btw. Dude was fucking awesome.
bh2 ? Sufi Muslim
January 28 2017, 10:51 p.m.
The yuuuuge phenomenon of critical examination of Islamic sources by the Western Muslims and presentation of interpretations that are appropriate for our time.
It is being facilitated by the freedoms that the West has to offer that many Muslim countries do not offer, as it requires challenging the orthodoxies.
For example, apostasy laws, gay rights, issues concerning women, etc.
One’s life can be in danger for challenging the orthodoxies in some Muslim countries.
Many would like the Muslims to reform their religion. Yet, they don’t realize that the best place to reform Islamic religious thought is the West.
Western Muslims are more open to the cross-fertilization of ideas than those who live in the Muslim majority countries with no or very little interaction with the non-Muslims.
Consequently, their collective consciousness rises and they become aware of many things pertaining to the non-Muslims and their thoughts and learn to live with the non-Muslims and work side-by-side on many issues. Something that is rather difficult to do in the Muslim countries, where many religious-minded Muslims live like frogs in a well, not seeing much goodness in non-Muslims and non-Islamic religions and non-religious paths.
The Muslims are in the West. They are in the West for a myriad of reasons. They are not going anywhere, and they will continue to discuss Islam and debate many issues, especially those that are rather difficult to debate in the Muslim world. See above.
The West is under no obligation and your usage of the word “conflicts” can be taken to mean “political” conflicts, which is not my concern, as I am only pointing out reformation of the religion of Islam in many of its outer forms.
The thought is that the reformation done in the West will cross into the Muslim world.
Rest of your post is based on certain assumptions you have made and the way you look at Islam.
Others can differ.
“Western Muslims are more open to the cross-fertilization of ideas than those who live in the Muslim majority countries with no or very little interaction with the non-Muslims.”
And this is a universal human quality, right? As best I can tell, non-Muslims in the West who have interacted with Muslims are far less likely to think of Islam as a hateful religion, etc. I suspect many of Trump’s most fervent supporters have seldom if ever encountered an actual Muslim.
I used to have a negative, even bigoted view of Islam; then I started reading and interacting with actual Muslims via the magic of the internet.
Indeed!
Human interactions do enable people of diverse backgrounds to look at each other’s essence, going beyond their differences.
Erecting barriers between diverse groups causes less interactions and cross-fertilization of ideas.
Even in the days of social media and an overflow of online information, personal getting-to-know and interactions have a different feel and effect.
Speaking only for myself, I have to agree most Muslims I’ve met in the West were perfectly fine folks. But to characterize a Lebanese Muslim as similar to a Gaza Strip Muslim would be absurd. Their cultural experiences differ entirely.
An electrical engineer trained in the West fervently wished to convince me that Christians and Muslims would battle the Jews for dominion during the Last Days he was convinced were soon to come and we had a mutual obligation to prepare for that fight.
Let us also not forget terror attacks on behalf of Islamic extremism by British born Muslims whose parents are UK loyal citizens. Cultural DNA is very durable. Believing it fades in a generation or two or is magically vaporized by stepping off the plane at JFK is magical thinking in support of a truly magnificent self-deceit.
Speaking of ‘Cultural DNA’ has anyone read the book being reviewed here:
Cultural DNA – the Psychology of Globalization
bh2’s cultural dna has been infused invaded by Sam Harris. He might just be a Sam Harris copy.
Yeah ,,
and Science has no dog in this fight
all your SMARTPHONE JIBBER-JABBER
DIE !!
Funny how that works. .. I used to have a negative, even bigoted view of gators; then I started reading and interacting with actual gators via the magic of the internet.
Sadly, many in the southern states, even including certain parts of Florida, cling stubbornly to irrational anti-gator prejudice.
In the 80s, while in college, I became good friends with an Iraqi-American young woman. Seeing her fear and opposition to Bush the Elder’s Operation Desert Storm (she had family back in Iraq, but her academic father had fled Saddam) made the Iraqis real to me.
Yasmin was also the first person who quietly challenged my smug assertions of strong support for anything Israel did where Gazans were concerned. They, too, suddenly began to be real people capable of being victimized, notwithstanding the absurdly romantic and false Zionist narrative my culture had fed me in which Palestinians were savage villains.
Ironically, she and I bonded on the level of rebelling against the faiths we were raised in (far-right Catholicism for me), experiencing them as oppressive and we both ended up as atheists. But just as atheist me remained supportive of Ireland’s Catholics against British oppression, her rejection of Muslim tenets did not dilute her political support for Muslims oppressed by the West.
The GG commenter Omooex did a lot to humanize Palestinians (and Arabs generally) for me. A Palestinian-American who forcefully condemned anti-Semitism even as Jews were literally blowing up Palestinian kids.
Yes, Ali Abunimah is like that as well. Such people are not just moral, but smart enough to understand that dehumanizing and oppressing any group of humans is the common enemy, one that can and has been of great harm to many different groups. (Jews have had more than a normal share of this viciousness throughout history.)
The day Trump’s ban was imposed a Twitter account began tweeting a trove of black and white photographs of Jewish families who, in 1939, were turned away from a U.S.harbor and sent back. One is a 5-year-old boy; the tweet says of him:
Jews, Muslims, Christians and atheists are massively retweeting all these endless pictures of human beings the United States sent to their deaths. This, apparently, is what Trumpers have in mind about “Making America Great Again.”
“smart enough to understand that dehumanizing and oppressing ANY group of humans is the common enemy” (emphasis added)
That was really well said Mona. I’m going to use that in discussions I sometimes have with certain Jews I know who don’t quite get it.
oomoex portrayed the character of a Palestinian-American.
she was banned …
we really could use someone to forcefully denounce antisemites as she sees them …
I believe the thought is utterly naive that a Muslim reformation will
1. likely occur in the West, and…
2. will inevitably transpose into the Muslim world.
If the first assumption fails, only the West pays the price. The decision whether to gamble on paying that price is solely for Westerners to decide.
How the West benefits even if this radical moderation did occur has yet to be explained in tangible terms.
If the second assumption fails, the Muslim world will continue in its traditional patterns without much interference. No penalty attaches. There is no carrot and there is no stick. Certainly there has been little evidence to date that such a radical transformation is likely or even possible and is therefore far less likely than a meteor strike on San Francisco.
The amusing thing, of course, is that we are increasingly urged to ramp up the national budget to detect and avoid possible meteor strikes.
You presented your personal views and I presented mine.
You may be right or wrong.
I may be right or wrong.
That said, I am aware that the reformation process is already taking place, and a lot of scholarship is being done in the West that is not possible to do in the Muslim world, and the Muslim attitudes toward many critical issues have changed more in the West than they have in the Muslim world, and cross-fertilization of ideas between Western Muslims and those Muslims who live in the Muslim world is already happening.
How the future will unfold, we don’t know, but will know over the next 50-60 years.
It’s hard to predict the future because one doesn’t know what’s going to happen.
If the past is any guide to the future, one outcome is far more likely than the other. And all the risk of your being wrong is borne by the West. The Muslim world would suffer no consequences.
That’s a rather one-sided gamble with no upside benefit to the West.
Or if there is some benefit for the Weest, you have failed to state it. Is that because you agree there actually is none?
Thank you for sharing your views.
We humans look at things from our own angles and use our own filters.
The benefits of reformation within the world of Islam are for the whole humanity.
The past is not necessarily equal to the future all the time.
But give humanity a few thousand years to evolve in its collective consciousness.
Perhaps, a time will come when humanity will do away with “us vs them,” or “the West vs The Other,” and will identify itself as one humanity.
We all do have red blood after all. Let’s start with that similarity and go from there.
“The decision whether to gamble on paying that price is solely for Westerners to decide.”
Given how much the imperialist west — originally Britain and France, but now more the United Snakes — has devastated the Muslim world by massive violence and by other kinds of intervention, including the active support of the worst of political Islam against the left and nationalism, the only thing “the west” should be deciding is how to compensate the victims of its past and present interventions. And this applies to the West vis-a-vis the non-Western peoples of the Western Hemisphere, Africa and much of Asia.
Mr. Trump’s plan to combat global climate change by banning international travel appears to be off to a poor start. Many people are depicting it as an attack on Muslims, which is true, but it’s always necessary to roll out controversial policies against an unpopular minority. Once the court challenges are finished, and the administration’s authority over control of the border is established, it will be possible to proceed to phase two.
Many people feel that Mr. Trump’s single minded focus on climate change is counter-productive. They claim there are valid reasons to travel from one country to another. But in the age of Skype, this is a dubious proposition. At some point, saving the planet must take precedence over personal convenience. People claim they need to travel to see long lost family members. In the electronic age, however, it is possible to create virtual family members and interact with them to your heart’s content. The same goes with students; universities have on-line courses so the educational opportunities in Mogadishu are equal to the educational opportunities in Boston. So I’ve yet to hear a valid reason for permitting international travel.
At some point, saving the planet must take precedence over personal convenience.
Hey Benny ,, what the hell happened to the humor ? Are you turning serious on me ?
The Trump administration banned humor last week. Sorry.
Now you tell me!
This Voice from Europe character is the afterbirth of a diseased British trollop’s folly with some dancing SEMITE from JERSEY !!
Mudbone, you wrote that yourself ? Compliment accepted.
I HAVE AN IDEA! Let’s relocate all of them to ISRAEL. Those nice welcoming people over there owe US. Then israel can relocate them to….. PALESTINE.
have a nice day.
On the matter of FORT ISRAEL may I remind you of a simple fact :
WE AIN’T SUCKED ALL THE OIL OUT YET
Lotta money been spent ,, lotta equipment still standing ,,
it’s just BUSINESS
Son
lol – i stand reminded, sir!
it was just a passing thought
i just figure israeli demands are always in the mix somewhere
There ain’t no protest except the clap of gunfire ! The SOB’s and their COPS will not stop from the shouting . The shooting will stop them .
LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL
SUCK THE LAW
I’ve always enjoyed reading The Intercept but am generally, and today is no different, horrified by the comments.
Trump is without a doubt the culmination of every poor US policy strung one after another. But he is without a doubt, the pinnacle so far – I cannot imagine where he is leading the ignorant american towards. But it’s not a good place.
Thank you for yet another thoughtful piece. I am so frustrated by Democrats who still give Obama a pass, not realizing, as you so clearly describe, that Trump is not really an aberration, but a continuation of horrible US policies that have been going on for years.
thoughtful piece ?
what on God’ s earth are you talking about ?
Glenn has been made
The offer he can’t refuse
there ain’t no thought after the CIA knocks at your door pal !!
Glenn, your comparison of the cartoons is misleading as your description is incorrect ! muslims are not depicted as rats ! Please do not compare the situation Jews faced in Europe in the 30’s with USA immigration policy now….it weakens your argument terribly.
It is entirely correct and factual. What part of the 2015 editorial cartoon do you not see? Open your eyes man.
Cartoon 2015 you see refugees and rats…In the 1939 cartoon you see only rats. Fact or fiction ? This is really misleading. But you’re free to accept anything you want to see.
MORON ALERT !!! MORON ALERT!!!
AHHH-UU-GAAH—————AHHHH-UU-GAAHH!!!
From the (very, very libertarian) Cato Institute:
Does this study not include the 9/11 attack….. ?
The second paragraph of the report you are too lazy to click on:
Trump’s ban on Muslims will not save a significant number of lives. Especially useless is the banning of refugees. His attack on medical care will kill many.
That’s not what the paper says, as it doesn’t consider muslims specifically. It’s goal is to prove that statistics on commited TAs –
– do not justify economic losses country would suffer by introducing bans:
So we can assume that the thesis is “no regulations are needed unless certain levels of domestic crime rate is exceeded”.
But then we see some crooked methodology being used to prove the point, that does not include vetting process and prevented crimes statistics, but includes the vietnamese migrants..?
That ‘analysys’ is a joke, as everything I happen to hear from the Cato Institute.
But I see no reason why not to accept migrants and refugees under humanitarian principles, even if that means additional resourses being poured into the migration and security offices.
One can see the current ban as a prelude to a massive military invasion, and would cautiously advise an analogy: policy towards the japanese during the Pacific War.
Right. I said that. Are the numbers in the first two paragraphs correct? I certainly was not using any “result” from this paper beyond those numbers. But to be fair, even places I detest as much as the Cato institute can be right about statistics, and might even draw the right conclusions from tine to time.
Indeed I read only Doug’s post where it is stated ‘the study identifies154 foreign born terrorists inthe US who killed 3024 people in attacks from 1975 to 2015′. The number of 3024 killed seems so low if this includes 9/11. I happen to know the family of the German girl who drowned after she was raped and thrown in a river last year. German police identified the criminal as an Afghan refugee who came to Germany throug the Merkel ‘ wir schaffen das’ open border policy. Statistically 50% of rape crimes in Europe are committed by refugee and migrants who have a different view of women ….
Then maybe yo should look at the first paragraph.
Well, I think this implies that other than 9/11, US born terrorists are more of a problem.
@Decatur204
Yes, by the time the globe shrunk we were primarily fucking up only Muslims and their countries. It’s ever easier for them to reach us, both here and abroad. By contrast, the Japanese, Vietnamese etc. got their hatred largely out of their systems via access to thousands of GIs on their soil or territory whom they could and did torture and kill.
Nope. It’s the proper business of those nationals to hold such views and fight to see them effected in their nation; if they think their dictators are “apostates,” what’s it to you? (It’s none of our damn business and also indicates nothing about scripture per se making them violent.) It is NOT the proper role of this country to thwart them by propping up dictators. No people is going to fail to include a small percentage of angry, violent members in the face of such fucking gall and meddling as we practice.
Well, actually, yes I did. Their motives are political; the organizing ideology to fight oppression is, in their case, a version of a religion. (Think Catholics v Protestants in Ireland; the IRA certainly did a whole helluva lot of terror shit in protest of their oppressor, often clutching rosary beads.) This packaging of political grievance in the language of one’s religious culture is common in history. I could cite you a religious studies scholar(s), but as it happens I hold an undergraduate degree myself in that field. When one is so credentialed it is logically acceptable to cite one’s own authority, and I am doing so.
Here’s some more evidence from the Defense Science Board, the 2004 study commissioned by Donald Rumsfeld (having no expertise myself in this field I provide you with those who are experts):
Now, you could write to the folks at the Defense Science Board and explain to them that they are horribly misguided, that the real problem is some religious scripture. Rumsfeld thought they could tell him why the Muslim world was so freakin’ pissed at us, but the fools just didn’t get that scripture thing. I’d be fascinated to see any reply you might receive from them regarding your great insight.
“[It’s] one hundred percent right that Trump’s unpredictability on all of these issues is attributable to the fact that he really doesn’t have any stable positions; he’s a con artist, he says what he needs to say to get you sign on the dotted line to sell you the used car.”
—Glenn Greenwald, 11/12/16
Trump isn’t unpredictable. And this wasn’t some inevitable trend. This is happening because you and many of your readers made a choice to do nothing to stop it.
This article started out on the right trail, but then faltered.
Trump’s order is an extension of what the previous administrations
and congresses had already begun in regard to certain CHOSEN
predominently muslim nations.
There are huge numbers of muslims who will not be directly
affected because this bullcrap is not really about their religion.
The hostility is aimed at certain nations and the predatory
faking U$A has been deliberately and viciously abusing those
CHOSEN nations with the support of democrats and republicans
for quite some time.
As far as I can tell, this, like all policy in the neo-fascist faking U$A
is about privatized profits and the people who are under attack
are probably seen as easy targets for the continuing domination
of Wall Street profiteers.
Still waiting to see how Greenwald blames Democrats for this, and how their executive orders were equally as racist.
The election of Donald Trump exposes a major split on the left. Trump has a great deal of support from radically antiwar libertarians and the alt left despite the very obvious negatives that go with an unpredictable Trump Presidency. Trump’s stated policy of detente with Russia has garnered the attention of antiwar activists like John Pilger. Trump is an anti-interventionist. Trump’s foreign policies – as far as they have been defined during the election campaign – are interpreted to challenge the neocons and liberal interventionists which dictate US confrontational policies and policies of regime change throughout the world, but especially in the oil-rich Middle East.
While “liberals” or “progressives” generally agree with the alt left on domestic policies and the need to view the world through colonialism and identity politics, there is a dramatic difference on foreign policy defined by the US role in the world. Foreign policy puts the alt left squarely in the Trump camp – essentially on a wing and a prayer. Antiwar activist, John V. Walsh, sums up this difference in his June, 2016 article posted at LewRockwell.com (“The Antiwar Left Likes Trump’s Foreign Policy” https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/06/john-v-walsh/antiwar-left-likes-trumps-foreign-policy/):
“……….Until recently the progressive mind has been resolutely closed and stubbornly frozen in place against all things Trump………But cracks are appearing in the ice. With increasing frequency over the last few months, some of the most thoughtful left and progressive figures have begun to speak favorably of aspects of Trump’s foreign policy. Let us hear from these heretics, among them William Greider, Glen Ford, John Pilger, Jean Bricmont, Stephen F. Cohen and William Blum. Their words are not to be construed as “endorsements,” but rather an acknowledgment of Trump’s anti-interventionist views, the impact those views are having and the alternative he poses to Hillary Clinton in the current electoral contest……..”
Anti-American, extreme leftist, John Pilger doesn’t mince words on Hillary Clinton or US foreign policy as quoted by Walsh in his article:
“…….The danger to the rest of us is not Trump, but Hillary Clinton. She is no maverick. She embodies the resilience and violence of a system whose vaunted ‘exceptionalism’ is totalitarian with an occasional liberal face.”………”
Assange and Greenwald also strongly opposed HRC – and for many of the same reasons. Assange released Russian-hacked emails to undermine HRC in favor of Trump. It does absolutely no good to complain about Trump policies in this Greenwald article since Trump made his plans obvious during the campaign. The time for the harsh criticism directed at Trump in this article has come and gone. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do including banning Muslims, but the alt left chose to provide back door support for him anyway on the “anyone, but Hillary” platform. By apparently roasting Trump for his racist policies (now), the alt left wants to have its cake and eat it too – and there is absolutely no guarantee that Trump will be a non-interventionist. He is already supporting a far more radical approach to the IP conflict than any previous US administration has dared which could bring a Third Intifada. He has alienated Mexicans and the Chinese as well.
Extreme leftist, John Walsh finishes his article detailing the reasons to oppose HRC:
“…….The reality is that we are faced with a choice between Clinton and Trump, a choice which informs much of the above commentary. Survival is at stake and we must consider survival first if our judgments are to be sane……..”
Indeed, survival is top priority!
“Indeed, survival is top priority”
Spoken like a true Hillary Clinton Democrat; values don’t matter, the American people don’t matter, the traditional Democratic base doesn’t matter – all that matters is hanging on to power, hanging on to those juicy leadership positions, ensuring that the pig trough is full of corporate cash and that the foundations load up with millions in corporate and foreign money donations – that’s all that matters to the corporate Democrats. They don’t care if Republicans win the House and Senate and White House, as long as they keep their positions as minority leaders.
Your comment is very revealing, isn’t it? Everyone who supports the traditional Democratic base, everyone who doesn’t believe in neoliberal regime change, in bloated defense contracts and arms deals with the Saudis and the apartheid state of Israel’s policies, is an “extreme leftist.” Get over yourself. The neoliberals are the lunatic extremists, and they need to be purged from Democratic leadership positions.
F&F
The passage you cite contradicts your original point. “Trump has a great deal of support from radically antiwar libertarians and the alt left” does not comport with the article’s statement that “[t]heir words are not to be construed as ‘endorsements,’ but rather an acknowledgment of Trump’s anti-interventionist views.”
I actually read many left-wing websites (including some of the writers mentioned in the article), and there isn’t a “great deal of support” for Trump on the left. There never has been. I don’t know why, but, no matter how many times I’ve seen your comments here, I’m consistently surprised by your utter mendacity.
I refer to the alt left support for Trump as “back door” support simply because of the bigoted and racist comments by Trump. Trump is certainly not the ideal candidate for the far left to support – and few openly endorse him. However, they see him as an anti-establishment alternative to HRC who they detest as a warmonger.
The author’s last paragraph says it all:
“…….The reality is that we are faced with a choice between Clinton and Trump, a choice which informs much of the above commentary. Survival is at stake and we must consider survival first if our judgments are to be sane……..”
That is clearly interpreted as “support” albeit on a wing and a prayer.
Hundreds of protesters are inside SeaTac airport (Seattle) demonstrating against Trump’s order.
WA AG has declared the executive order “unconstitutional” and his office is working as we speak to combat the order. WA governor publicly denounced the order.
Talk about a response!
The government of the State of Washington has nothing to say in this matter and no standing to challenge this order.
As Mr. Obama repeatedly pointed out, all questions about immigration are the exclusive province of the Federal government.
The AG stated his opinion and that ain’t just hot wind.
They’ll be in federal court Monday morning.
You cannot legally detain US citizens just based on country of birth. That is what happened in WWII with Japanese-decent American citizens.
the courts let that slide, too. i think eventually the survivors or their heirs got some kind of inadquate compensation decades later.
Please don’t mischaracterize the persons affected.
They aren’t US citizens and therefore have no constitutional right to enter the US from abroad.
The incarceration of Japanese-Americans was carried out by that most admired “progressive” president, FDR. New Deal, indeed. Restricting entry to the country differs from restricting exit from a barbed-wire prison, although this distinction is likely imperceptible to the average leftist.
Oh, I think the State of Washington has and will have plenty to say about this matter and I wouldn’t bet that Washington officials don’t have standing, either. SeaTac is run by the Seattle Port District, a public agency, and has already suffered damages and incurred costs associated with the clusterfuck surrounding this order. I expect it wouldn’t be hard, at all, for the district to engage the Washington AG’s office as counsel in this matter.
And then there’s. . . Microsoft. If Trump’s ban affects their employees, they will be very unhappy — and they have major legal clout.
Yep, I even offered my taxes in support of getting rid of the people who caused damages and incurred costs.
It’s not a permanent ban on Muslims. It’s a temporary ban on several countries until more background and secure vetting process can be put in place. You people are crazy. The US government with congress and judicial laws and policies created to contribute to the highest economic inequality that fails US born citizens in a massive way and you think bringing in more foreign elements to extract more resources will help our country’s citizens. This is a temporary ban not permanent. How about fighting the pirate and predatory politicians and corportists long before Trump entered the WH. Let’s do some massive protests against corruption in our government and it’s not Trump he’s only been there a week.
Maybe your argument would hold water if Trump had banned all Saudis and Qataris and Egyptians and Pakistanis and Kuwaitis, too – but no, he didn’t, because they might get pissed off and cut all business deals with the U.S. So, like a schoolyard bully, he picked the weakest members of the Muslim nation-states to go after, to appease a few of his most rabid insecure hate-filled xenophobic supporters. What a joke.
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/01/why-iran-but-not-saudi-arabia-ttg.html
If Trump wanted to go after corruption in our government, why did he appoint all those Wall Street insiders to his cabinet? Why didn’t he publish an executive order halting NAFTA? You Trump supporters, like the Obama supporters in 2008, have been taken for a ride. It’s only going to get worse.
“and you think bringing in more foreign elements to extract more resources will help our country’s citizens.”
If by “elements” you mean individuals, theses individual refugees aren’t the ones extracting resources at America’s expense, that would be the large multinational corporations and banksters. These folks are holding almost three trillion of our tax dollars in oversea accounts because they don’t want to pay their fair share – as you and I do.
“How about fighting the pirate and predatory politicians and corportists…”
That’s exactly right; but Trump has many folks bamboozled into thinking it’s a refugee problem causing all our problems and it’s not – it’s overwhelmingly these folks.
Will Trump do anything about that? I don’t think so, given that many of these same bankster and business crooks are now members of his cabinet.
If what I’ve read is true, the frequency of violent attacks by Islamic extremists in Europe is so much higher than in America because European Muslims are marginalized and segregated–unable to truly become part of the society– whereas the vast majority of American Muslims feel included and are proud to be a part of American society. The millions of American Muslims who reject violent extremism, condemn acts of terrorism, and would do what was needed to help authorities prevent attacks in the U.S. are essential to the security of this country. This codification of Trump administration bigotry is the real threat to America. We must call this what it is, scapegoating and collective punishment for the sake of security theater, and reject it utterly.
WATCH: ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero coming out of the court where the ACLU just argued and won block of Trump’s Muslim ban.
But this has to be some sort of partial lawsuit. I know for a fact that as a Visa applicant I have no rights, and that the Visa officer has 100% right to discriminate against me on ANY basis. This has to be some sort of limited injunction based on people with Green Cards and people who were already given Visas.
No. Consular officers have a great deal of discretion and, in individual cases, can mostly do what they want and get away with it. Issuing an across-the-board order that, effectively, discriminates on the basis of religion is a very different matter. we have a constitutional battle looming.
Yes. It’s an emergency stay, pending a hearing to determine whether an injunction will issue and it does, indeed, apply only to the classes you identify (at least mostly).
But, one step at a time. CAIR, the ACLU and, no doubt, any number of others, are working on other provisions and effects of the order and we can expect to see them in the courts very soon.
Maybe. I remember reading the visa policy some 21 years ago, and distinctly remember reading the worlds “deny” and “discriminate.” I remember understanding when I was reading that, that I could be denied a Visa if the visa officer didn’t like my face. But this is not unique to the US. This is the visa policy of almost every country.
Yep, as long as s/he didn’t explicitly document that, you could definitely be denied. And if s/he didn’t like your religion, s/he could probably get away with turning you down, also, but s/he could not openly admit that it was because of religion.
This order is clearly aimed at favoring some religions (any but Islam in the case of people from seven named predominately-Islamic countries) while disfavoring another (Islam). The US Constitution specifically forbids our government from doing that.
It is. Applies only to those few persons trapped “in transit” and already on US soil when the order went into effect.
It’s a temporary emergency order by one judge. Does not affect the ban on those persons physically outside the US and therefore lacking the same constitutional protection.
At least two, so far. Judge Thomas Zilly of the US District Court for the Western District of Washington issued an emergency stay this evening.
Good luck with your application; we need people like you.
haha. i was talking about the time i first applied as a student.
what’s up gator?
Ah, I misapprehended. But I’m glad you’re here in any event.
I’m commenting a lot today because I’m recovering from surgery and have fuck-all else to do. (Not “major” surgery, but I can’t walk for a couple weeks. Or maybe it was major — I have a friend who says the only minor surgery is that which is performed on someone else.)
Well I hope you better quick. I had a friend who had knee surgery, and I can tell you, he was in pain for some time. But he didn’t have The Intercept to keep his mind off stupid unnecessary things like physical pain.
Isn’t separation of powers great? Even better, this is a rollback of the executive authoritarianism developed under Bush and Obama. As hoped, separation of powers has undermined the wackier notions of Team Trump and prevented them from being implemented. And I don’t see Congress getting behind this either, not unless the backers of it want to lose popular support and get voted out of office.
Lo and behold!
This country is gonna fall apart because of the temporary suspension of immigration from seven shit holes.
Chicago’s liberals never protested as much in the last 10 years of carnage in their city.
Arrest all the airport protesters and throw them in jail. Yeah. I know it is all going to be on taxpayer’s tab. I’m willing to have my taxes used to that end.
You’re so cute when you’re mad.
he’s so dumb when he’s mad. probably when he isn’t mad, too.
Too racist for Breitfart, he comes and delivers his turds at TI.
Yeah, Tony? Well here’s how your taxes are actually going to be used:
Your money and that of hundreds of millions of other American taxpayers is going to be used to pay the salaries of government lawyers attempting, unsuccessfully, to defend this despicable and unconstitutional nonsense, as well as the salaries of everyone in our court systems who has to deal with the cases.
And then you, and the short-fingered vulgarian, and the other bigoted nincompoops, will lose, but not before you bring even more shame to our nation.
Only hate, can make some conservatives or religious persons, renege on their principles, lying dormant the whole time.
I may be mistaken about the “dormant” part. I may also be mistaken about the “only” part.
But seriously. You’d give up your principles on lower taxes, just to mess with some protesters? Haha. That’s really funny how much they seem to have got your goat. Those pesky libruls. God hath no patience for a different point of view. So much like a human.
This ban actually has nothing to do with religion and nationality, and even less with violence and terror. This is all about cheap labor for menial jobs that people from these countries take up on landing here. But it makes no sense banning immigration for cheap labor, so this screen of security concern hides the intention.
President Trump has done a very good thing protecting the jobs for us who voted him to power. Those who now want to work will find well-paying jobs, and those who are lazy and want to survive on community dole will soon find it necessary to go out for work instead of lazing on their couch watching television when not participating in lives-matter-related protest marches.
America is great again. LA Times:
Fuck you Hillary Clinton fanatics and the DNC. Howsabout next time not nominating someone as popular as a herpes diagnosis who couldn’t beat DONALD TRUMP. Reports are, by the way, she’s thinking about a 3rd try in 2020.
Third time unlucky, no doubt!
GTFOH! hahahahahahahahaahahah. Seriously? baaawhahahahahahah
By the way, I don’t know if you follow Jimmy Dore, but he has an interesting theory about Hillary’s health problems. When she became stiff and they had to drag her to her car, they immediately took her to her daughter’s house. Jimmy’s theory is, that if something like that had happened for the first time, surely they’d have taken her to a hospital, or one of the secret service triages set up in nyc for her. But since they took her to her daughter’s house, he surmised that it must be some sort of pathology that her handlers are familiar with and know how to deal with.
I think Jimmy has something there. She’s got some sort of medical issue that they’re hiding.
“She’s got some sort of medical issue that they’re hiding.”
Hillary has a horrible case of Trumpism. Virulent stuff. Worse than Neoliberalism, some say.
“You’ve done enough. Have you no sense of decency, madam, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?”
Apologies to Joseph Nye Welch.
That’s for boosting up her dwindling talking fees. Nowadays she and her philandering husband are paying to be heard. Fate can be terribly cruel.
Anyway, I think you were rooting for Jill Stein. In the end she also was found to be just as crooked.
As is quite usual, you are wrong. I was not a Stein booster; I was indifferent to her. She is not “crooked,” but she’s also not an effective politician.
No, I supported Bernie Sanders. In the general, I supported no candidate.
Therein lies the truth.
How was Jill Stein Crooked?
Perhaps he is referring to her failed attempts at recounts. But, no she was not crooked, just not too smart. She made a hilariously stupid comment vis a vis voting systems being potentially “hacked”, which is patently absurd as no voting system is a network of computers accessible from the Internet or phone lines.
P.S. Third Party candidates are fools in that they only come out of the woodwork a few months before the election — nobody knew who they really were! No third party will never be anything but an annoying spoiler if they do not make their presence known years ahead. Which they don’t.
“Fuck you Hillary Clinton fanatics and the DNC.”
You Faux Democrats elected Trump as much as anyone else. Tell us, oh please tell us, anointed one, she who sits 10 hours a day commenting here…
Did you really think a CLINTON ADMINISTRATION WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE THAT A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?
Don’t just dash off a cute response of vague innuendo. Try to take your time and be thoughtful for a change.
She didn’t say that did she? A Hillary Clinton wouldn’t have been worse, we’d only have to listen to her husband tell Muslims, that some of them are good. While that is definitely better, for people stranded at airports, it may in fact be even better in the long run if the average American wakes up to the shenanigans pulled by both parties.
Is the Trump admin better or worse for all the people the last one deported, or all the families the last one broke up?
Fuck the democrats and the DNC. A new movement is needed. Maybe only Trump can help make that happen.
Colossal what?
Colossal is just another word for yuge. ;-}
:”Don’t just dash off a cute response of vague innuendo…”
In examining this admonition, using the power of inverse relationships, we arrive a negative correlation. You may pick up your prize at the door.
These were your first words and also was your first mistake (and it would get no better as you went along):
I’m not a Democrat, either “faux” or otherwise. My dedication to any organization is only as strong and as long as that organization holds and promotes principles that are sufficiently moral. The very idea of unswerving support for an organization per se — just because it is the organization one has been in for a bit, or was Mommy and Daddy’s party too — is both intellectually and morally preposterous.
As for the rest of your vacuous spewing, I had idiotic, culpable people just like you in mind when I posted this.
Also, Collosal, can you Hillary people not make any political point without getting in somebody’s face, and without personally insulting them? Is it like some sort of pathology or what?
A BernieBro
The fact you all turn it into party politics and the blame game is hilarious or would be if it wasn’t so sad and pathetic.
Party politics is used as a tool to divide and conquer while the 1% rob you blind. It’s like a magic trick, everyone looks one way while the real trick happens over there.
You have an elected oligarchy. Just think about that for a second. Insanity.
There’s only one solution, complete and utter revolution from the working class. Everything else is just a distraction.
A bunch of descended immigrants arguing about immigrants, you’re playing the game they want you to play.
If we’re arguing with each other about gay rights, immigrant rights, anything else but the ridiculous inequality of wealth then they have done their job and are laughing at you from their penthouses with private security blocking the door.
Strike from industry, don’t work for the government period, don’t comply,refuse to participate in their game, and it is a game to them, all of them amd we’ve already lost, time to flip the board over and start again, a few pieces may get broken unfortunately but power was never handed over willfully, and wealth never shared through altruism.
The more you blame party politics and fight amongst yourselves the more you lose.
Stop pretending you’re one of them, or ever could be, you’re not, they think of you no more than the immigrants, lesser, beneath, a means to an end. They’d ban you if they didn’t need you to run the place while they sip champagne, they already have, just go to where they live, where they holiday, where they eat. see if you’re allowed in.
Divide and conquer. It’s strategy 101.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwugjyeSKx4
I am for one concerned that the European rapes and bombing do not arrive here. The statics from 205 is a mute point. With the stolen Passport Machines in Syria I full well recognize the danger that presents. Why no mention of terrorist attempts and acts since 2015 to today? Life isn’t fair never was and never will be these bans are TEMPORARY AND in millions of our views a better option than hope like in New York the Van did not blowup! Please look at both sides of this situation.
How about the “side” that demonstrates that we have actively, for our own interests and/or out of our stupidity, greed and brutality, destroyed and helped to destroy the places these people used to cal home?
Speak for yourself. I didn’t vote for Clinton or Bush or Obama.
I voted for Ron Paul when I could.
That’s a perfectly apt question. The answer, however, does not lie in our absorbing those who were bombed because we own them accommodation here.
Since Muslim nations are OBVIOUSLY not stepping up, it’s reasonable to ask why. We should certainly be willing to support whatever efforts are necessary to protect actual refugees (which differ from economic migrants).
Perhaps not voting for eager warmongers would be a good place to start? And not re-electing them when it’s obvious they are warmongers?
Where have I heard this reasoning before? Oh yeah… now it’s coming to me. All those bloody fucking Palestinians. Israel is such a small country. Why don’t the Arab countries just step up and take them?
But you’re right, they should step up. I just thought your logic was, shall we say,… particular.
You do realize that “looking at both sides” doesn’t mean you give them equal weight, right? You might look at them and reasonably come to the conclusion that one side is fucked up, doesn’t solve any problems, but instead creates more political instability and grotesque abuses like the ones we’re witnessing.
You clearly have no idea what the U.S. has been doing to Muslims that reasonably induces anger and even rage at us. I explained it earlier in this thread with citation to studies.
It’s our policies. This obscenely unjust and discriminatory ban is to terrorism, what a warm, moist environment is to mold. Because that is true, Trump is doing precisely what ISIS wants him to do. He’s setting up a whole new slew of ISIS recruits, including domestic ones.
Considering just hours ago he sai that “they were long overdue”, it’s very likely he will extend them, bar perhaps massive protests changing his mind (unlikely IMO).
Not to mention the severeness of the already existing vetting process.
It is more than unlikely that Americans will turn out en masse to protest mistreatment of Muslims. They have been brainwashed into even-deeper-than-ordinary bigotry for nearly two decades.
On the other hand, it is very likely that the federal courts will rip this order to shreds, as is already beginning with Judge Ann Donnelly’s emergency stay prohibiting the feds from deporting the people they have detained upon arrival at various airports.
The conditions for granting such a stay include the judge’s assessment that the plaintiffs are likely to prevail at a full hearing, so at least this piece of the order is going to be ties up for a long time (assuming the Justice Department appeals the final ruling). It’s possible, of course, that the 1st Circuit could overturn the stay, but that seems unlikely.
Real lawyers, whaddaya think?
My thoughts precisely.
In which case, great use of tax dollars by DJT!
I think we now have a president likely to have a great many Andrew Jackson moments. How many troops have the courts?
I think it may be a lot harder to ignore the courts now than it was then. Among other things, there are legions of civil servants seeking justification to resist Herr Drumpf.
Of course, if he tries and gets away with it, many more humans will travel the New Trail of Tears.
“…there are legions of civil servants seeking justification to resist Herr Drumpf”
Good point. Seems we’re seeing a part of the status quo being threatened now that largely has been untouchable after previous peaceful transitions of power, which is largely why those leaving don’t want the apple-cart upset. Good, though. Revolution isn’t a trickle-down thing.
I don’t have a lot of trust in the average civil servant to jeopardize their employment over principle. Little in history would nurture that hope.
Damn it. That’s a good point, too, one I should relate with. Despite my history, my hope is that enough individuals collectively get together to do some shaking up via unions…oh crap. I’m talking nonsense now.
They won’t have to jeopardize employment. They’ll just have to “work to rule,” misunderstand, misplace the paperwork, push the wrong button, or engage in innumerable other actions that can effectively sabotage the Chief Buffoon’s orders.
Federal civil servants are hard to fire.
“I am for one concerned that the European rapes and bombing do not arrive here”, but, apparently, you are totally oblivious to the rapes, bombing and murders perpetrated by native born U.S. terrorists.
Oh, sorry , you call them “Christians”, and young white men who have done more to terrorize their communities than all imaginary foreigners combined.
What are you talking about, only brown people are terrorists white people who commit atrocities are just mentally disturbed. Rookie mistake.
/s (obviously)
http://www.salon.com/2017/01/28/our-broken-system-wont-be-fixed-by-radical-third-parties-the-u-s-needs-a-new-centrist-party-now/
These clowns simply don’t get it.
They act like these two things are not 100% the GOP’s fault. Which is not to say their isn’t some degree of Democratic complicity in the latter example.
That could have happened as part of the ACA–which got zero GOP support together with fighting tooth and nail that Medicare never be able to negotiate collectively against big pharma.
And yet somehow the solution is “more centrism”? Go figure.
Again, assuming for the sake of argument they were willing to explain precisely how the “long-term debt outlook” is such a huge problem (never stops Republicans from spending when they are in power for the policies they love–police, military and immigration control), there literally is no Republican at present, if not for decades, who would ever agree to “revenue increases” i.e. increased taxes to fund the “earned benefits” (which they euphemistically like to call SS and Medicare that all working Americans pay into their entire working lives).
Interesting that if they were actually concerned by the “long-term debt” they don’t ever want to touch their sacred cow of military spending.
In fact, to best of my knowledge it is part and parcel of being a modern member of the GOP that they all have to swear fealty to Grover Norquist’s no taxes period ever not on my watch pledge.
But of course all that is needed is more “centrism”? Again, go figure.
Wheelan and Orman are one of two things–paid propagandists or stupid. Probably both.
you experienced skills in observation and logic are a wonderful benefit to my awareness and growth and i thank you for contributing here.
the people on the ground in the US will be well served by ONLY 3RD PARTY VOTES in 2018 and 2020.
BREAKING: Federal judge grants emergency stay to temporarily allow people who landed in U.S. with valid visa to remain
I’m reading the news in awe. It’s complete chaos at airports everywhere. US companies are scrambling to get their foreign staff back into the US. Lawsuits are being filed. There are massive protests. The principle of reciprocity is being invoked, which should’ve been expected. Trump is on the phone non stop with foreign heads of state. There’s a lot of talk about boycotting Trump, and Mexicans are already boycotting American products in mass.
Yeah, who could have imagined that what goes around comes around?
Really, I couldn’t blame Muslims if they BDSed us.
They’ll certainly consider going into China’s orbit.
Yeah, Chinese traditionally like everyone.
Now I know you are an idiot.
Oh Yes! I completely agree. Sufi is a total idiot! The Chinese have been fighting 7 wars for the last 15 years. You should know that Sufi. The Chinese don’t like anybody.
It’s not a matter of Chinese liking or disliking non-Chinese.
It’s a matter of increasing trade with China due to U.S. restrictions, students going to China for higher education instead of coming to the U.S., which has already been happening for many years now (I know many cases in which foreign students who’d otherwise come to the U.S. went to China to study medicine because of U.S. restrictions), forming military alliances with China instead of relying on the West, and so on.
A Mexican-American congressman (I am forgetting his name) appeared on CNN just the other day saying that U.S. restrictions on Mexico would force Mexico to do more trade with China.
Not sure if this personal attack was necessary.
ADDENDUM:
“Iran immediately retaliated by banning US citizens from going to that country. Given that Iran has a GDP the size of Poland and is now open for business, Trump just cost US companies billions and billions of dollars inasmuch as European, Russian and Chinese firms will now get Iran’s new business.”
From http://www.juancole.com/2017/01/sadism-exclusion-temporarily.html
So when I said what I said about going into China’s orbit is not something others (like that Mexican American congressman, and Dr. Juan Cole) are not saying. They are.
“There’s a lot of talk about boycotting Trump”
This, in my view, is the only appropriate response, both here at home and abroad. It’s too hard to do damage control on personalties that have these chaotic tendencies. We have enough serious stuff to take care of without babysitting our president’s tantrums and the dealing with the resulting fallout.
Yes, boycotts. Neither justice nor misery moves corporations. Billionaires and global corporations obey but one thing, the ca-ching of money. Sure, litigate; but that’s always a gamble. Furthermore, the follow through on favorable decisions is another problem.
Journalists, scholars and artists can help in getting the attention of the people, but real action lies elsewhere.
Boycotts stay in the hands of everyday people. Even nobodies can join in. The superrich can’t force you to buy their products. Meanwhile, corporations begin to tighten their belts for a change. Boycotts can starve corporations until they’re tamed or dead. Boycotts can take less time than big case litigation. Simply take away a hunk of their market share, and that’s enough to drop them to their knees.
Boycotts. Choose the first corporation to boycott with care. Then put together the same crowds we saw last Saturday, only this time with a single purpose: the boycott of a named corporation. Only one at a time. After the first boycott success, the rest will be little birds.
DNC and primary Clinton supporters are responsible for President Donald Trump
Multiple Democratic Party hacks below are spewing garbage about Glenn Greenwald ostensibly being the reason Donald Trump won. In adopting this ploy they (continue to) deny reality. Greenwald wrote this on February 24, 2016: With Donald Trump Looming, Should Dems Take a Huge Electability Gamble by Nominating Hillary Clinton? The following didn’t change as the primary season went forward; if anything, the contrast became starker:
Moreover,
You DNC and Hillary hacks need to look in a mirror when asking how President Donald Trump happened. Blaming Greenwald — who like a number of others, warned you — is the height of chutzpah.
They didn’t realize that Bernie or Bust was a serious warning. This is what Bust looks like.
Blaming Greenwald and blaming Putin.
Anyone but the leadership, themselves, the cheerleaders, the pwned voters (dems good on abortion) and of course the DNC who insisted on running a deeply flawed, even broken candidate because it was “her turn”. And of course, “good for women”, whatever the hell that means?
Trump also had the support of millions of Americans for whom neoliberalism and “same old same ol” — just wasn’t cutting it anymore. Those people did not exist for Hillary.
Trump won sure, but more importantly, more significantly, Hillary Clinton lost.
And now comes the whirlwind.
No Russia required! Pravda!
Absolyutnaya istina!
I can’t do it in Cyrillic, because of the limitations of TI software.
And for anyone saying “But Clinton didn’t know what she was up against!”
Not true: Donald Trump was expected to be a cakewalk for Clinton from the very beginning.
These people are not going to stop. Their “talking head” jobs are at stake.
On a related point, decisions like this one show the true commitment and zeal of the government in preventing actual terrorists from committing acts of terror:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/11/hsbc-us-money-laundering-george-osborne-report
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cQNkIrg-Tk
About that, how Glenn Greenwald characterizes Trump’s preferential treatment of Christian refugees – “Trump’s pledge … to prioritize (them) over all others is just profane … bigotry in its purest sense … certainly unconstitutional … (and it) helps ISIS’s overarching objective …” – what if there’s this too going on behind the scene, as hinted at by, of all people, Open Doors USA CEO David Curry?
“religious intolerance … is the central issue that they’re (the Trump Administration’s) going to have to deal with, whether you’re looking at it through the lens of immigration, whether you’re looking at it through the lens of terrorism … We’re hopeful that they take it seriously. If they don’t I think WE WILL SEE THIS ADMINISTRATION FAIL … 2016 was the worst year of persecution of Christians on record, with a shocking 215 million Christians experiencing high levels of persecution for their faith … Nearly 1 in every 12 Christians in the world today lives in an area or in a culture in which Christianity is illegal, forbidden or punished. And yet today the world is largely silent on the shocking wave of religious intolerance” (Open Doors USA CEO David Curry, Religion News Service, January 11, 2017).
Why doesn’t the rich kingdom of Saudi Arabia take any Syrian refugees?
Does Iran take any of these Muslim Refugees?
The UN definition of refugee, use to be, moving across one border awaiting the end of hostilities so they could return home.
Moving across several borders, makes them migrants.
It might have something to do with the fact that the rich Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (along with the US and others) has been financing and supporting so many of the terrorists who are helping to create the refugee crisis.
Also, of course, many of the Syrian refugees are theologically undesirable to the Saudis.
This stuff is not hard to Google. Why does everyone keep buying narratives without checking?
The top 4 countries receiving Syrian immigrants are: Turkey (2.7 million), Lebanon (1.5 million), Germany (600K), Saudi Arabia (500K).
The US? About 16,000, just behind Bulgaria. What a burden.
Almost all of those 500,000 are actually temporary guest workers, not refugees.
Migrant crisis: Why Syrians do not flee to Gulf states
Syria’s Refugees Feel More Welcome in Europe Than in the Gulf
(I forgot and put two links in a single post.)
Those 500,000 are almost all temporary guest workers (not nearly as pleasant as it sounds), not refugees.
Syria’s Refugees Feel More Welcome in Europe Than in the Gulf
Migrant crisis: Why Syrians do not flee to Gulf states
How about the “only democracy in the Middle East” with the “most moral” army in the world? You’d think they’d help
That “democracy” cannot do that. It would constitute a “demographic threat” to their ethnocracy, for they are Jewish-supremacist. By law– and by means of ethnic cleansing and terror — they founded and maintain a Jewish super-majority.
An administration that has hired 11 pro-Israel high-profile Jews (some served in the Israeli military) issued a ban on travellers from 7 Muslim countries.
That’s called consistency, isn’t it?!
——–
The firebrand nominee promised to reveal the truth behind 9/11. Didn’t he?
With staunch 11 Israel allies in the administration, hell will freeze over before such a government would allow any 9/11 truth to come out. But we need to keep the pressure on them to keep their promise.
Mr. Greenwald
“………Conversely, the countries that are included – Syria, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Iran, Sudan and Yemen – have produced virtually no such terrorists; as the Cato Institute documented on Friday night: “Foreigners from those seven nations have killed zero Americans in terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1975 and the end of 2015……
You would think most Americans were born in a vacuum oblivious to Islamic extremism and murder in Europe – not to mention the rest of the world – or else you would not throw out meaningless statistics. European social democrats have accepted millions of Muslim refugees, migrants and immigrants into Europe despite some strong objections from other Europeans. Providing opportunity to less fortunate people is a liberal idea, and the concept of multiculturalism has been popular since the 1970s. There are indications that this experiment has failed in Europe.
Merkel ignored objections to her acceptance of hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants from the Middle East and North Africa in Germany. Unfortunately, this has led to widespread recent terrorism, threats to free speech and an increase in antisemitism in Germany as well as the rest of Europe. Trump publically called Merkel’s immigration/refugee policy a mistake. The failure of Muslims to assimilate in European society in many instances has caused widespread problems. The Islamic terror attack on Charlie Hebdo was a direct assault on free speech. Additionally, the European left tried to cover up the hundreds of African and Arab men involved in assaulting women in Germany over New Years. It has not fallen on deaf ears that over 5000 Muslims have left European democracy to join the racist, bigoted, supremacist, antidemocratic murderers from ISIS which amounted to a direct rejection of European culture and democracy.
Collective punishment of any particular group based religion is wrong whether Muslims, Christian or Jews (Zionists) etc. Yet, you cannot marginalize the voices of a segment of your population without eventually some strong political push-back. The reverberations are dramatic (so far). The British are exiting the EU (Brexit), the far right is making large gains in European elections and, (probably) worst of all, Trump was elected with back door support from the alt left which focused on keeping HRC from becoming the 45th President. These are troubling developments. It’s clear that Americans have noticed the problems in Europe and the greater Middle East – and elected Trump (partially) to deal with Muslim refugees and immigrants. This is exactly what Trump said he was going to do so it is no surprise.
Meaningless statistics are meaningless, Mr. Greenwald.
Meaningless comments are meaningless as well, just like yours. You conveniently forget that France has disenfranchised the muslim immigrants with overt racism and hatred. Muslim immigrants from African countries live in harsh conditions with little or no opportunity. France and other European countries are suffering from terrorism for various reasons not just because of religious ideology. That is what the WORM’s (White Old Republican Men) want the general public to believe. At the end of Vietnam war, did the refugee’s coming from there commit terrorism? No! How about Korea? No! So please dispense with your sanctimonious BS and get yourself educated beyond putting english sentences together.
To understand Trump and his views and policies and Steve Bannon’s all you have to do is visit:
http://www.rense.com
An intensely anti-semitic websites for most of its existence that turned anti-muslim about 2 years ago.
Trump are using muslims to make Americans comfortable with his dictatorial tendencies, make no mistakes about is JEWS are his and Steve Bannon’s ultimate targets.
Mudbone whoever you are would you please stuff it
At least if the Vichy Dems had any spine whatsoever they wouldn’t be voting for any of Trump’s appointees period. And include Bernie Sanders in that critique even though he’s an Independent.
https://thinkprogress.org/islamic-center-of-victoria-fire-8a683f632a7a#.96jq8usy4
This is the sort of shit anti-Muslim (anti-any group for that matter) hysteria provokes.
And if the 30% of the American voting age population that elected Trump really thinks this sort of bullshit will end well for them, I think numbers and demographics say different.
If the Dems want to actually resist what is happening they need to do it vociferously and consistently at all times, otherwise no one will trust them. And if people think they have no peaceful political outlet for their grievances that’s when shit really hits the fan.
I’ve been saying for years that America should be broken up, peacefully and by public referendum, into about 3 or 4 smaller countries. Regionally we do not share the same values any longer and that’s a recipe for disaster and internal civil war.
hmmm
good thinking
the lonestars want their own country
the racy racists want their own area
the thieving a-socialist fony capitalists need to be sequestered and quarantined
the rest of the country can probably settle back to normal.
At least three or four, and not only for political-philosophical reasons. The the environmental and resource-constraint crises that surround us, and that must — per the laws of physics, supply and demand, ecology and population biology — continue and grow worse, require smaller and more manageable organizational structures if we are to have even a modest hope for sustainable civilization.
Why won’t the right realize that refugees-at least some groups, probably depending on the regime they’re fleeing-can make for good conservatives. With all the talk about American traditions and values, whatever that is taken to mean, many actually vote for Republicans. At least that is my experience with people fleeing communist regimes, such as the soviet union and Cuba… In my opinion, that depends more on some sort of “PTSD” than a rational choice. In any case that seems to be the reality for some refugee populations in the US… would be interesting to read a study on this question, if such exists, and how refugees’ political orientation compares with other immigrants (documented and not).
Glenn, stud stuff, as usual.
Aside from the ethical & legal aspects which you’ve detailed, I’m stunned that Trump wouldn’t see that his Order’s omission of, of all people, the Saudis, would make this policy a laughing stock to ALL but his most fanatical backers. The case for Saudi inclusion is about as famous and simple as it can get.
He’s have been better off to ban all citizens from ALL “pro-terror” countries, irrespective of religion (thus probably passing Constitutional muster).
If that meant that some Christians got blocked, that price would be a bargain, compared to the hornet’s nest he’s liable to end up in with this as currently phrased.
I want to repeat something I have stated a few times in the past:
We Muslims are often asked to reform our religion.
Reformation is indeed needed in some key areas that have to do with the outer forms of Islam, even though there are many interpretations in those areas already.
But what these people do not realize is that the West is the best place for the Muslims to reform their religion in those areas due to the freedoms the West offers in terms of critical thinking and thought and religion.
On many issues, the reformation requires challenging the religious orthodoxy, which, in some cases, have a lot of influence on the political establishment.
Generally speaking, it can be fairly risky and dangerous for the Muslims to challenge these orthodoxies in the Muslim majority countries.
For example, gay rights, apostasy laws, treatment of women, interactions with non-Muslims, harsh punishments, etc., are some of the areas in which there is a lot of open debate needed amongst the Muslims.
Debate on these issues is either non-existent, or almost nil, or very little, in Muslim majority countries, while it is taking place in the West, quite a bit.
I tried Sufi stuff in 1974/75 , all that whirling did not work .
The only thing that clicked , and still does , is a shot of Whiskey !!
My intention is not to convince anyone or invite anyone to a Sufi path.
I just try to share my views.
Not all Sufi paths utilize whirling. As a matter of fact, most don’t.
It is about knowing the self and moving away from its so-called lower attributes of selfishness, arrogance, lust for power and control, injustice, vengeance, and several other attributes I have often listed.
How one grooms one’s self so that it reflects the higher is one’s personal business.
Everyone has access to the light of the higher consciousness within. And there are as many ways to connect to that light as there are human beings.
This may be true, but it is not the obligation of the US or other western countries to provide a battlefield for Muslims to sort out their differences, which often involves blood shed. It is also not an obligation of any country to adapt its majority beliefs to a culture which operates on contrary assumptions.
“the West and Muslims are inherently and irreconcilably adverse.”
That’s pretty much been the historical experience.
Religious tolerance used as a justification to admit persons who profess religious beliefs which are profoundly intolerant of other religions seems a pretty pretzel-bending argument for bringing them in.
Persons applying for admission for residency in any country have no “civil rights”, by definition, since those rights are only conveyed by approval for admission.
Nor has any country an obligation to admit persons for residency simply because they show up at the border. And unlike the US, most normal countries do not.
exactly.
and the nephew of Bashar stated that same rationale for the difficulty in the middle east where the tribals believe that religion comes first over family, tribe, country
The real source of all our problem is God himself. He has appeared to us in so many forms that it has confused all of us. He could have kept it simple and taken on only one form, and then we could have all lived in peace.
The real source of all our problem is God himself. He has appeared to us in so many forms that it has confused all of us.
Almost as if Man created God in his own image instead of the reverse, no?
It’s enough to make a girl agnostic, I tells ya.
At the heart of all religion is People Management. It is also a lucrative business.
“At the heart of all religion is People Management. It is also a lucrative business.”
Heroin is the opiate of the masses these days.
thanks Obama DEA.
wow? i was on scroll patrol and was about to respond but then noticed the smoke. figure there are flames somewhere.
also i agree with you on that. one god – many flavors – many problems
You missed the depth of my post.
Sigh!
I got it, your words aren’t all falling on fallow ground. I found what you said truthful and provocative, thank you
What “depth” are you referring to? It certainly isn’t self-evident that your comments contradict mine about why the US has no obligation to help other people sort out their own conflicts with each other or abandon established assumptions about what rights people inherently enjoy in this society vs. those of most Muslim nations based on observation rather than pretty theories. Even “liberal” Muslim governments like Malaysia enforce religious sanctions on anyone who “insults” any of its holy beliefs.
I said only that Islam, taken as a whole (and without regard to its myriad schisms and conflicts), isn’t a religion which has historically been tolerant of other religions unless it dominated them numerically and politically (since there is no distinction in Islam between secular and religious domains of civil life it is perfectly irrational to accept there is a distinction between church and state). Historically, other religions were (and are) permitted under Muslim governance only at the sufferance of that majority — not as an established and protected universal right as a matter of fundamental law.
Liberal values are not sustainable in the face of illiberal beliefs which leverage liberal values to overturn them.
In terms of practice rather than theory, we have the evidence from various European nations which have embraced “refugees” that hasn’t worked out well. One can only wonder what they are thinking.
Any country that has to teach people why not to commit gang rape on the local population has made a severe error of judgment about who it invites in as guests. This is self-evident. Sweden (of all countries) is now mocked as the rape capital of Europe. Those who made the grave mistakes which led to this debacle are now passing laws preventing anyone from pointing out the source of the problems. Germany is following a similar path.
So much for the survival of liberal values (freedom of speech?) in the face of an onslaught of criminal conduct by persons rendered untouchable by an exaggerated policy of “tolerance”. One should worry what happens when Swedes have had enough. It may not be pretty.
As to comments by others here about my reference to historical experience, it remains that no “multicultural” society has ever existed. Without exception, all governed territories have a dominant social order and legal system and all others accommodate themselves to fit in. Eventually, one culture may displace the other, but the idea they will co-exist in equitable peace is denied by every evidence available.
Even Belgium is merely a notional “nation” only in the sense that it has a shared national boundary, but internal cultural divisions are profound and will never be reconciled except at arms length.
The same could be said of many Middle Eastern and African “nations” which are defined by arbitrary boundaries enclosing competing tribal groups who often intensely hate each other. Ian Smith predicted what would happen in Rhodesia and it came to pass despite naive beliefs of Western governments who pretended he was wrong. They later pretended they didn’t notice he was right. Indeed, they mostly distanced themselves from the gory bloodletting.
The conflict between Islam and the West has been going on since Mohammed and his followers swept the Arab world and beyond, in a continuing conflict of ebb and flow which has never ended. The general rule has been that whoever ends up in control is determined by force (usually bloody), not by accommodation (witness the Balkans). Tactics may change with opportunity, but the objective never changes — as Islam itself has made very clear in both word and action.
That isn’t to say all Muslims are overtly dangerous people, per se. But the beliefs of a majority (as expressed in repeated polling of those long living in Western countries) makes perfectly clear they do not favor Western liberal values and should therefore not be expected to fit well in a society which regards them as virtually sacred.
Is that a statement of “hate”? Nope. Just a recognition that fundamentally conflicting cultures rarely resolve their differences by the grace of hope and charity. Given a choice of your fundamental cultural values or mine, I’ll go with mine every time — and yield no quarter to yours which may conflict. And it’s likely you feel no differently. The only question is whether yours will yield to mine or mine to yours in the long term.
What is shocking is that Western “liberals” can so steadfastly persist in an evidence free belief that their culture is imperishable and (vainly) that it so plainly superior that it requires no defense against being undermined because its superiority is so rationally “obvious”. (To them alone, unfortunately).
I think she was referring to the “thrust” of her post, the “point” of her post.
She never said that the US or any Western govt. had any obligation. He post was directed to Muslims who live in the west. Her point is that Muslims living in Western societies have an obligation to reform Islam. At no point did she say anybody else, or any country did.
What the fuck does that even mean? You’re saying that wherever Islam is a minority, they’re not tolerant, until they dominate numerically? and then what happens? they become tolerant then? So in every country with a Muslim minority, it’s not the majority that are intolerant, it’s the Muslims? and they won’t be satisfied until they’re the dominant force? Is that what you’re telling me Mr. Harris?
There is a distinction between Church and State in Christianity? Judaism codifies a distinction between Church and State?
There is ONE Muslim governance. Other religions are not permitted in Saudi Arabia. But Kazaksthan doesn’t permit other religions? There are no Catholics in Senegal, Mr. Harris? or his acolyte? the instant half educated atheist?
You piece of human filth Mr. Harris or his acolyte. So Mexicans are rapists, and Muslims are gang-rapists. Good to know. I also heard Jews ate babies.
I’m no fan of multiculturalism, and I’m all for assimilation. But where is the evidence that second generation Muslims are unable to assimilate in North America? How did you work on your “evidence” and your “stats?” By studying Italians?
Only in your fucking head harris. Like when the Muslims were fighting the West during world War I and II… oh the ebb and flow… oh the historical data, and the evidence and the stats… they’re all over Sam Harris’ little Chairman Mao’s little red book.
Oh, how big of you. A caveat. You’re so adorable Mr. Harris/his fucking acolyte.
Really? What constitutes “historical experience” and what constitutes “irreconcilably adverse?” Are Whites and Natives “irreconcilably adverse?” Whites and Blacks? Germans and Russians? Christians and Jews?
Why don’t you just stop beating around the bush and just say what you really feel? Don’t preach about historical experience. What’s your historical experience?
But yes, you’re correct that someone seeking admission does not have civil rights. I’m not sure someone seeking asylum does not either.
Answered above.
Bullshit! You answered nothing, you Sam Harris acolyte. You half-educated “make history up in my own head,” instant-atheist.
Yeah, we have every right to divide their lands; establish colonial governments and supervisory mandates; overthrow independent governments and replace them with our puppets; invade, attack and bomb the hell out of them when the puppets try to pull their own strings; fund mercenaries to overthrow other governments; provide unlimited support to settler colonialists and their seven-decade campaign of terror, land seizure and ethnic cleansing. . . and keep the ugly results out of our pristine land of the brave.
You betcher ass! Murka! Fuck yeah!
it is not the obligation of the US or other western countries to provide a battlefield for Muslims to sort out their differences,
Provide? The battlefields are and have been almost exclusively provided by the countries in the ME that we insist on invading.
If it is not the obligation of the US or other western countries to provide a battlefield for Muslims then maybe we should leave their countries.
It is also not an obligation of any country to adapt its majority beliefs to a culture which operates on contrary assumptions.
Of course not. Can you name any given wave of immigrants in the history of this country that didn’t adapt by the time the second generation reached adulthood? I can’t recall any. Maybe the Moonies? :-)
“the West and Muslims are inherently and irreconcilably adverse.”
It’s horrid, and wrong, but as long as the west can’t keep itself from meddling in Muslim countries it will be difficult to overcome this on a broad scale. However, I think if you look at the current population of the country and look at the success the vast majority of these folks have after emigrating I think the math would redound to their favor.
Persons applying for admission for residency in any country have no “civil rights”, by definition, since those rights are only conveyed by approval for admission.
You’re incorrect. Unless, of course, we set aside international human rights agreements we have signed/ratified, then that would be the first line of civil rights. And there’s the Bill of Rights. In fact, Greenwald addressed this back in 2010 (my emphasis),
https://www.salon.com/2010/02/01/collins_5/
If you can get the Muslims to change their leaders then we should be able to have this limp Congress rise and impeach ours. Neither will happen.
I thought it was our job to change Muslim leaders. We’ve certainly been doing it for a long time.
For what it’s worth, I’m emailing my thoughts to the White House once a week starting today..for the next 208 weeks
https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact#page
Be sure to give them a good old fashioned tongue whipping !!
Well that will work better than voting ,, RIGHT ?
FYI; Fill out the form info. truthfully prior to your comments. Get on their list !
Let them know who you are.
Identify yourselves
Yeah ,, ya’ll need to feed that CIA protection racket ! Send in photos of your children too .
They are useful in these TIMES OF TERROR WAR !!
Hey Unc ,,,
No one gives two shits about your thoughts , especially the US GOVERNMENT ,,
except , unless, it threatens the STATUS QUO of on-going operations .
WAKE UP !! This “Government” is a mob (aka CIA ) Protection Racket !!
Hey pal ,,, Let me show the Torture Special of the Day —It’s on sale—just speak up
And don’t even think of not paying the tax . You know what happens to those guys ,, RIGHT ?
Sounds like a good idea except for the riddle of who’s listening.
…for a long time now.
…your gonna need a bigger wallet.
OK ,, I got it !!
This is the JERRY SPRINGER SHOW
circa 2017
Throw the used condoms at each other as directed !!
sure – except in this case the “we bombed you we ban you” policy is sadly necessary. But let us be very clear – this entire fiasco started with a couple of imposters of intellect turned war criminals named Bush and Cheney who were never prosecuted by the next war criminal named Obama. As a result, these attrocities were embraced. And let us also be very clear – this entire situtation is the result of a media blackout and the genocide of Palestinians for their land by israel and their supporters of genocide and land theft in the US both in gov and with such other war criminals funding the land theft to build upon.
If you want to know the extent of the support for this monstrous horror, understand that the murder of Seth Rich was supposed to stop the leak of emails of the monster who promised wallstreet thieves they could continue robbing Americans and murdering Palestinians. And just as the English could not manage to solve who Jack the Ripper was, certain elites and agencies are running that same game today.
Perhaps America will somehow benefit from this evil.
Jack the Ripper was English !!
NUKE BRITANIA !! ( The source of the malignancy )
Problem solved .
quite a difference between the brits and the british square mile
I see Jimmy has surfaced, and it isn’t even Groundhog Day yet. Early Spring?
Can anyone explain how we continue to allow those who use their Religious laws, Sharia, over and above those of the U.S. . I am very aware of the mayhem and death that WE have caused and I am sympathetic to their plight, but how do we solve this very important issue. Love to hear some coherent ideas
What are you talking about precisely? If your argument is that there are some people who have religious beliefs that are at odds with the law, that’s commonplace in every country. There’s a thing called freedom of thought.
Maybe you could ask Kim Davis. Who I can only assume you’d like expelled from the country for putting God above US law? Or you could ask Roy Moore, or any number of politicians.
You are a case study in careful-what-you-wish-for, Glenn.
You did all you could to get Trump elected, and now you don’t sound too happy.
Greetings to Susan Sarandon.
You must be very limber. I’ve rarely seen someone so quickly stick their head up their own ass, twice.
Of fuck off. Glenn Greenwald is one of many who warned you all that Hillary was deeply unpopular, that poll after poll all through the primaries and after, showed this. By contrast, Bernie was immensely popular, including in the Rust Belt where she so messed up — having lavish dinners with her wealthy donors while Trump stumped the working class.
Virtually all polls showed Bernie beating Trump by much wider margins than any for Hillary — so he had more room for the polls to be less than accurate. (A small but significant cohort of Bernie supporters went to Trump in the general.)
Idiots. You DNC/Hillary fanatics are all to blame for President Trump. You insisted on a candidate so despised that she could not defeat the Donald fucking Trump. A decent, not loathed candidate would have had a huge lead against him; she didn’t.
Yes.
Perfect.
I have to wonder — they do see this by now?
Don’t they?
No they don’t. Because they are too busy celebrating Satanism, sexually abusing stolen and discarded children and then murdering them, both to glorify evil and to remove the evidence.
That’s ridiculous. Glenn was simply not a shill for either side of a depressing presidential election.
My takeaway from last week’s women’s March: Trump is still passionately disliked by huge numbers of Americans and, yet, the DNC couldn’t manage to beat him. An enormous cock-up.
If you want to be helpful, admit that your candidate lost on her own merits and move forward with that knowledge. Blaming people who rightfully pointed out her problems is small minded and bitter. There’s no time for that.
You idiot. Either that or you are just ignorant.
Bad case of shooting the messenger, much?
One important comment on Madeleine Albright (other than the fact she is Soros’ cousin) is that her lobbyist group merged with that neocon lobbyist group responsible for interrupting the recount in Florida (called a Brooks Brothers mob by the newsies), I believe it was called Stonebridge.
The small story is Trump, the big story is his followers.
If the decent, the moral, and the sane do not take action, the insane and immoral will take over.
Grass roots civil resistance must start now! An avalanche of legal challenges, peaceful protests, millions of meeting requests with your representatives at every level, media events, …
A nationwide strategy to grind to a halt Mr. Trump’s illegal and immoral actions.
Agreed.
Yes! Finally!!
1/ While deploring such a list exists and pointing out it leaves out the main terrorism-generating countries, how can Afghanistan, according to its own premise, not be on it ?
2/ “Pretending that Trump is some grand aberration, some radical departure from U.S. history and values, is simply a deceitful way of whitewashing what we have collectively endorsed and allowed.”
Although Trump’s executive order may be a mere continuation of prior policies, part of the aberration lies in the acknowledgement of what previous administrations still officially considered an embarrassment.
3/ “the right-wing rag Daily Mail’s 2015 cartoon showing Muslim refugees as rats”
I’m sure you noticed only terrorists are depicted as rats in the first cartoon, whereas all Jews are in the next. Of course, it suggests the refugee exodus is what made/makes the terrorists’ (re-)entry into the EU less noticeable. But it’s not identical (yet), at least not at face value.
4/ “Even more significant, albeit harder to quantify, is the extreme fear that Muslim Americans and immigrants quite rationally harbor about what this will all spawn, both in terms of cultural norms and additional policies.”
Despite the policies they implemented, the past administration’s rhetoric was always one of appeasement. The current one, on the contrary, purposefully chose to irresponsibly feed tensions, both domestically and abroad.
During his ABC interview, Trump told Muir that, as it is, the world is already “a mess”. Is he anticipating a new major attack on US soil ? Is he waiting for his own Reichstag ‘incident’ to happen ? Is the policy he’s implementing actually relying on it ? If even Mattis says “this kind of thing is causing us great damage right now”, why would he knowingly do it anyway ? If, by all he has been doing up to now, he has actually, as some suggest, been sending subliminal messages to one clearly identified portion of the electorate only, how should we interpret some of his recent statements, at the CIA headquarters and elsewhere ?
Of course, as a journalist, you can’t write this kind of stuff in an article because it amounts to speculation. But, without minimizing previous administrations’ shared responsibility in it, you can nonetheless ask yourself, whether in a Trump’s opinion, ruling the land is conceivable with so many checks and balances…
A new configuration, one in which the press would know its place, protests would be inaudible, and “legalism” (to quote a former French minister of the Interior) would no longer be an impediment, would certainly clear the horizon. And if what’s being decided right now is a conscious prologue to that, wouldn’t that be the actual aberration ?
– I just took office a few months ago . What allowed this to happen is the Democrats’ gross negligence.
– How so ? I even went so far as to allow all agencies to have access to the NSA’s raw SIGINT…
We can take a lesson here, that is understanding how the German public followed Hitler. There are many stories alluding to Germans having a leisurely afternoon snack while the Jewish, gay, gypsies walked to their death at Auschwitz. Fuck this country!!!!
Well, the lesson there is that when the government tells you to collect all your valuables and head on down to the train station for “resettlement”, that’s when violent resistance is entirely justified. That’s the lesson the world learned from the Holocaust. If the Jews (and other Nazi victims) had organized themselves into small units armed with weapons and explosives, and had say, blown up the train tracks to Auschwitz and launched attacks on high Nazi officials, well, that could have put a big dent in the effectiveness of the Final Solution.
This is also what your American far-right militia groups believe in, did you see the stories about right-wing militias arming up for a Clinton presidency a few months ago? And the general structure of Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, small units armed with anti-tank weapons for the next Israeli invasion, is along these same lines.
But really, do we want that kind of sectarian ethnic violence to break out in the United States? I don’t think so – and the Muslim internment camps have not been opened in the United States yet, so let’s not go over the top with wild-eyed fears. Let’s give the courts a chance to shut this idiotic program down first, why don’t we? It seems rather unConstitutional, after all.
Otherwise it’ll end up like this doom scenario. Let’s just say that there’s a huge economic collapse in the United States. Entirely possible under Trump’s domestic agenda, and some Wall Street/Fed interests may try to sabotage the economy to get rid of Trump. The United States could end up like a collapsing Soviet Union. Add in some domestic unrest and violent protests. . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MmfCX2H7N8
Don’t hyperventilate, it could lead to a medical emergency.
We do have internment camps. I know of 2 here in Texas. Undocumented are held without much due process or access to legal counsel til the government decides what to do with them. Immigration service has been sued for the bad conditions in the camps. In those camps are men, women and children
You’re talking about the Obama deportation camps, aren’t you? And didn’t the Clinton-engineered coup in Honduras have something to do with that? So where are all the corporate Democrats, why weren’t they howling about Obama and Clinton acting like Hitler? The double standards are kind of ridiculous, a complete lack of self reflection:
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/obama-family-deportation-raids-217329
This dates back to before that story, too:
It wasn’t, they’re just stuck there in limbo – and you’re right, it sounds like a real hellhole, possibly worse than the Japanese internment camps of WWII – but it was Obama’s administration who set it up.
Concur, and also, COUNTRIES WITH DIRECT LINKS TO TERRORISTS /ISM IN THE USA ARE NOT LISTED..
This is because those countries are currently allies with the USA, who are also against the counties in the Ban List..hmmmm
Saudi Arabia, direct link..
Afghanistan (CIA trained, “narco-state”),
UAE (BCCI financing of “black ops”)
Pakistan
Here’s a good comment on that issue:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/01/why-iran-but-not-saudi-arabia-ttg.html
NOTHING CAN COLLAPSE THAT IS NOT INFLATED.
Ahh yes, you make it sound so easy as to how the Jews could have saved themselves. Germany was only run by a ruthless dictator with one of the most powerful armies the world had ever seen. But, of course, the Jews without arms and weapons could have done something. Take a history lesson and show a little more sensitivity when talking about mass murder and genocide.
this subject has come up before
mass murder and genocide is occurring right now and oddly from a country occupied by similar persons whom should also be unwilling to commit the same attrocities.
makes you wonder,. dont it?
Hindsight is 20-20 vision. But IF the victims of Hitler had been able to stockpile weapons and explosives – IF – they could have at least sabotaged the plans somewhat. It would have helped if American corporations like Standard Oil, Ford, GM and ITT hadn’t been in bed with the Nazis, too, of course.
Sensitivity. Please. We’re trying to learn from history here, not be all PC about it.
Mr. Greenwald, who is billionaire funded (for people who don’t know what that means, it means he’s on his knees to plutocracy), who lives out of the country, has done more good work to denigrate Muslims than most people. Fox News, Sean Hannity and Mr. Trump himself can’t get enough of him. He’s got his little cottage industry going here of falsely equating Democrats and Republicans. The four brain cell alt-Lefties fall for it, along with the three brain cell right wingers. But that’s okay. It’s all good for business with Mr. Greenwald. Here’s a tweet by Madeline Albright: I was raised Catholic, became Episcopalian & found out later my family was Jewish. I stand ready to register as Muslim in #solidarity. Yeah, as Greenwald would have you believe, it’s just like Trump. Why don’t you apologize for your role in electing Trump or just go get that job at Fox News that’s waiting for you Glenn.
Right. The Great Madeline Albright.
Isn’t she the one who is responsible for the deaths of half a million Iraqi children when she pushed through an embargo that included medicine for Children, and said she’d do it again?
Yes. Very different from Trump.
No, idiot. That horseshit was disproved long ago. Your little brain has been programmed to believe anything that’s thrown your way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP1OAD9jSaI
Lies become you Jimmy
Actually no it wasn’t. Unless disproved means something to you that it doesn’t mean to the rest of the English speaking world.
http://fair.org/extra/we-think-the-price-is-worth-it/
Albright, said what she said, and in the context of multiple independent international agencies arriving at various death tolls/consequences of Iraqi sanctions.
I can find you 10 sources in 2 minutes that demonstrate the allegations against her cavalier attitude are well documented. But do your own work you lazy bald-faced liar.
Excuse me, but it was NOT disproved. She actually said that it was “worth it” on television.
If you can find and link even one example of where Glenn Greenwald has done any work, good or bad, that “denigrates” Muslims (much less relative to any other individual on the planet), I will pay you $500.00.
Short of that you are a bald-faced liar.
And what role would that be? If you honestly believe any work Glenn has done as a journalist or lawyer helped elect Trump (who I can guarantee Glenn did not vote for), then you’re not only delusional, you’re also a bald-faced liar.
I’m waiting for an example of Glenn denigrating Muslims.
Writing false equivalency articles, billionaire funding thousands of them lead directly to Mr. Trump. That’s called lying to support somebody. And that somebody is the enemy of Muslims.
Did you eat a lot of paint chips as a child? Seriously. Please cite to a single article by Glenn Greenwald that “denigrates” Muslims–that was your statement. Defend it or don’t liar. But your misdirection that “false equivalency” stories emanating from Glenn Greenwald is also another bald-faced lie.
Again, maybe “lying” in your stunted understanding of the English language means something it doesn’t to billions of other English speakers on the planet, but that doesn’t make your definition the commonly understood one. So, again, cite to one single example where Glenn is “denigrated” or “lied” about Muslims, or written “false equivalency” stories about any individual.
Right paint chip eating brain damaged guy–Glenn Greenwald has spent more time defending Muslims than probably any other journalist in America. So fuck off you bald-faced liar.
Yeah, I’d like to see evidence of it too. I think Greenwald stands for decency, accountability from all sides, and gives some level-headed commentary…
Madeline Albright? The same cheerleader for neoliberal interventionism and regime change who helped bring so much chaos and bloodshed to the Middle East? Sanctions that kill 500,000 Iraqi children “were worth it” Albright? Standing in solidarity with Muslims? Hillary Clinton warmonger buddy, supporter of regime change debacles in Libya and Syria? Sure, Jimmy, keep flogging for the neoliberal war pigs.
I think I prefer Keith Ellison and the Bernie Sanders crowd, thanks:
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/316675-ellison-refugee-ban-contrary-to-everything-we-cherish-about
The courage of the great Democratic Party, which does so much, only when it costs them so little, and after everybody is already enslaved. Oh how great the Democrats are. All hail the great leader Chuck Schumer.
If Jimmy’s a typical Hillary supporter that would explain a thing or two.
Mr. Greenwald, has done more good work to denigrate Muslims than most people. Fox News, Sean Hannity and Mr. Trump himself can’t get enough of him.
What? Are you smoking somthing?
I don’t care for the rest of your horse shit but that bit I DEMAND evidence for.
I’ll wait too…
Lives outside of what country?
Are you saying people have to live in Amreeka to write things now?
Ah the Hillarybot returns. The fact is, Muslim-Americans have no greater champion than Glenn Greenwald. Wingnuts hate him; this is so-called “Accuracy in Media”:
But your really revolting comment is this:
Muslim activists all over Twitter (righteously) pounced on that vile woman’s bullshit. Given that only one link is postable per comment, the monstrousness of Clinton operative Albright will follow immediately below this.
Madeline Albright thinks the deaths of half a million Iraqi children was “worth it.” That wretched creature said that on 60 Minutes about Bill Clinton’s lethal sanctions on Iraq:
In Hillarybot world, Madeleine Albright is a great friend of Muslims, while Greenwald “denigrates” them. What fucking moral insanity Hillary worship induces.
Worst woman in the universe: a toss up between MA and Victoria Nuland?
So much to despise in in that woman.
“The four brain cell alt-Lefties fall for it, along with the three brain cell right wingers…”
You do realize that using your own “logic” here, the number of brain cells diminishes exponentially as we get closer to your group?
hey jimmy
was that you standing in for Kevin Kline in A FISH CALLED WANDA at the end, feet in concrete, when the steam roller rolled (you) over?
Milo is trolling the Intercept! http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2017/01/28/milo-unm-heres-ices-phone-number-use-wisely/
This is so disgusting. I didn’t even click on the video. Just saw the sign. What a Christian thing to do, to “purge” an illegal. I bet that’s what Jesus was thinking.
Thank you Glenn for honestly discussing this disturbing truth.
“That’s why it’s urgent that everything be done to denounce it, battle it, and defeat it now.”
This guy is hilarious. He spent most of his time during the campaign season punching Hillary Clinton. His strategy was to portray her as being as least as inhumane as Trump if not worse. He basically ignored most of candidate Trump’s weird and immoral promises because like Assange he expected Clinton to win. When Trump announced his plan to ban Muslims he wrote an article blaming the media and suggesting Clinton’s message was similar to Trump’s.
Now he is whining about a president who is just doing what he clearly said he would do. You should be blaming Trump for picking only a few countries instead of all Muslims as he promised. You guys whined for years about politicians not respecting their promises, didn’t you?
Bannon properly addressed you Greenwald: “shut up!”. What are you complaining about? You, Chomsky, Scahill…and your unintelligent followers who have their head buried in your ass consistently portray the US as a terrorist state. It makes sense for a terrorist state to be careless about refugees, climate change, immigrants….
Hmm..
https://www.rt.com/news/375390-study-refugees-religion-law/
Don’t ever cite RT. Russian propagandist garbage.
Careful. There don’t seem to be many truth seekers lurking around on this thread.
Irrelevant. How many Americans do you think put religion above law? Half or so?
Last time I heard about it involved some bakery and wedding cake for homosexuals.
The liberals went bonkers.
With CAIR, the practice would be approved only for Muslims and liberals would be cheering it as some victory of progressive I protest and tweet, now let somebody else cook halal food for a bunch of old women from Somalia.
Many centuries ago one great Latino writer called Miguel de Cervantes predicted the the inevitable rise of The Don. Well, the dawn has arrived and the world must take note.
Good article Glenn. But the story begins in 1990, not 2001. Islamophobia became a US gov strategy starting with Persian Gulf. Anti-Muslim hate crimes began then too.
Great article Glenn.
Crushing irony of course is that the Seminal Event that launched this “crusade” is one that you never question. You and virtually all other journalists understand that it would mean the end of your careers.
From mass surveillance to the launching of all of these wars, the linchpin to it all must NEVER be questioned!
I mean, the official corn-spiracy theory holds up right?
Are you talking about the GOD thing ?
The Official Original ?
Nah, this is the writing of a conspiranoid Troofer.
M`bone..
*Nah.. He’s referring to the ‘act of god’, where 255 stories were leveled to the ground (in mere seconds) from structure-fires.
https://youtu.be/nUDoGuLpirc
*Variant spelling of ‘no’. (ht` stanley)
Except that didn’t happen.
The South Tower collapsed 56 minutes after impact — nearly an hour of intense fire.
The North Tower collapsed an hour and three-quarters after impact, having burned intensively all that time.
WTC 7 burned for seven (7) hours before collapsing.
Hope this helps (ha!).
building 7 burned for hours before being collapsed not from office fires
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXu2-WWbIeY
but from prewired explosives to bury the evidence of the command center
@Arth
Oh no, this is straightforward reality: Trump is, indeed,ISIS’ new best friend..ISIS has a master plan — The Grayzone — that involves getting Islamophobes in the West to hysterically and viciously crack down on Muslims. They believe (with a kernel of logic) that this will cause Muslims to be convinced they will never be treated justly by the West, that it will radicalize our domestic Muslims, and that they will turn to ISIS to build the fucking Caliphate.
This has been written of in many places, including here: ISLAMIC STATE’S GOAL: “ELIMINATING THE GRAYZONE” OF COEXISTENCE BETWEEN MUSLIMS AND THE WEST
Donald Trump is making much of that quoted piece no longer accurate. The author, in November of 2015, did not foresee that this “absurdity” would soon be upon us:
At ISIS Headquarters, those depraved, distorted “Muslims” are shouting praise to Allah for Donald Trump. I greatly fear but also guarantee you, ISIS has big plans for heinous atrocities in the U.S., to cause Trump and the public to react even more hideously toward all Muslims, both U.S. citizens and those of foreign nations.
Donald Trump: ISIS best friend.
I can’t see how ISIS persuading all the radicalized Muslims to join ISIS rather than come to Europe or the US and cause trouble is a bad thing. I would say it’s a good thing.
Anyways, Trump believes that his #1 job is to protect the American people. He said so as he campaigned and he said it again after he was sworn in. I happen to disagree and maintain that a president’s #1 job is to defend and protect the Constitution – by appointing strictly pro-life justices – but, whether I agree or not, he does what he promised he would do.
The math is like this: fewer immigrants and refugees from these countries translates into fewer terrorists coming in which makes the people of the US safer. Yes, it’s possible that his policies may cause some Muslims already in the country to ‘radicalize’ and go berserk but, we shall see.
You just can’t stop the linking , quoting , little MUDSUCKERS !!
My reply was exactly NINE LINES so what’s your problem?
I was not talking to you Arth ,,
I was talking to Mona , the QUOTE_LINK_LADY_QUEEN !!
You should have stopped after the word “see.” Clearly, you didn’t read my post; you certainly did not comprehend it.
ISIS actively wants Trump and other Western leaders to discriminate against Muslims. ISIS will target the U.S. on purpose to cause Trump to react as Pavlovianly as they know he will. His predictable responses, they believe, will cause domestic, citizen Muslims, to see things ISIS’ way.
It will radicalize American Muslims, they think — and this will, in some small number, probably actually happen. Indeed, expect a tiny percentage of (probably) young male American Muslims to accept ISIS’ line in response to Trump.
Trump’s rancid bigotry and draconian policies play right into ISIS’ hands.
I see, so the more Muslims are allowed into the US and the less vetting is done before allowing them in, the less terrorism we are going to have in the US.
It sounds like doublethink to me. It’s pretty ridiculous actually but that’s what makes doublethink such a powerful tool of analysis and prediction.
Of course it sounds that way to you. You’re a dedicated Trumper. The administration that uses “alternate facts” and lies about everything, daily.
If Mona ain’t on the corporate payrole then she’s a freelance hooker trying to find a pimp with a roll !
lol, whenever out of some meaningful retort, i.e. almost always, back to the name calling thingy. Very, very nice. Meaningless but nice. :)
Which part of:
… didn’t you understand?
By ‘apostatize’ they mean ‘assimilate’ – oh, the horrors!!!! Or migrate to the Islamic State? And, no, we don’t want that? We really, really want to keep the terrorists here, don’t we?
How bizarre.
I have a question for you and the other pro-lifers. Are you going to imprison the women who have an abortion? The doctors, nurses and other staff involved? I have never seen an answer to this question, bubba. I’m waiting.
What? Did we merge the abortion thread into the terrorist vetting discussion? Please explain yourself.
Mona,
This is a very interesting essay at Consortium News;
Deep State vs. Donald Trump
January 28, 2017
“President Trump has stepped onto a high-wire in defying America’s Deep State, but can he withstand the powerful winds that will surely buffet him and what will President Putin do to help or hurt, asks ex-British diplomat Alastair Crooke.
–He has arrayed against him the still intact power of the Deep State, yet he chooses mainly to taunt them. His inaugural speech told the Deep State flatly to prepare for its own disempowerment. He has thereby “burnt his bridges” in respect to any subsequent Faustian sale of his soul. He can only succeed, or dramatically fail.
–For all the pomp of an orderly transfer of power on Jan. 20th, the reality behind the trappings is one of a “state of war” between the U.S. President and the still-present Deep State elites (but not necessarily the Deep State’s foot soldiers, many of whom, it appears, voted for Trump).”
By Alastair Crooke
Alastair Crooke is a former British diplomat who was a senior figure in British intelligence and in European Union diplomacy. He is the founder and director of the Conflicts Forum.
Trump’s needlessly chaotic way of imposing this indeed betrays an interest in causing as much hate and fear among the Muslims in the U.S. as possible. He could have implemented the ban the day before, or the day before that. So there’s no reason why he needed to turn people back on airplanes! And there is the supremely bizarre feature of turning away PERMANENT RESIDENTS if they happened to be out of country, yet now all the ones here … what, they remain, as long as they don’t go out of country? That’s totally freaking random, it doesn’t make any security sense at all! Unless———- unless the goal is not to stop terror attacks at all! Unless the goal is to *cause* terror attacks to excuse more states of emergency, more spying, more crazy laws, more Trump.
Whether the last 9/11 attacks were staged by Bush or not, we can surely be confident that the NEXT set of attacks will be Trump’s heartfelt desire and crowning triumph.
RULE OF THUMB :
IF YOU CAN’T SAY IT IN TEN LINES THEN IT IS BULLSHIT !!
Better Rule of Thumb: If you can’t combine your turrete-like comments into something others can respond to, you should refrain from commenting until you can.
Also, caps and bolding won’t increase understanding at all.
And what shall I do to increase YOUR UNDERSTANDING
oh little wise one ?
Follow my suggestions.
Besides being blindingly stupid (ask any librarian, any scholar, any journalist, any author, or any human being with an IQ above that of any random bonehead), your Trumpian discourtesy is a feeble attention getting technique akin to a yapping poodle.
Please
stop your fucking
SHOUTING!
Note on executive orders:
Note on U.S. Constitution:
This explicitly prevents Trump from producing executive orders that distinguish between Muslims and Christians. This will no doubt feature in the recently filed ACLU lawsuit against Trump’s order:
https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/aclu-and-other-groups-challenge-trump-immigration-ban-after-refugees-detained
Note also, this is why countries like Israel and Saudi Arabia, which do discriminate on the basis of religion, should not be considered “US allies”, since they don’t share our most basic beliefs or values. In reality, Lebanon – with it’s power-sharing deals between Christians, Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims and the secular non-religious faction, is much closer to American democracy than any other country in the region.
Lebanon as a future vision of the USA. Non merci !
Far preferable to the Saudi or Israeli model, I think. Perhaps if we could go back to Beirut in the pre-civil war period? I could live with that.
https://www.city-journal.org/html/can-beirut-be-paris-again-13586.html
Wow. The General says we understand more now about how we live in a probabilistic universe. (Well, ignore his horse shit that Einstein’s objections to quantum mechanics have anything to do with the uncertainty of human events.) Then Karl tells us just because something bad has not happened yet does not mean it won’t. Same thing really. Both think that we must take protective action.
If you believe these idiots, you would have to argue that everyone should be banned from entering the US.
In arguing that immigrants from Syria, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Iran, Sudan, and Yemen should not be singled out for special vetting by the Trump administration, Gleen Greenwald argued that these nations have “produced virtually no terrorists” comparable to those from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, and the UAE . In support of this false contention, he cited a quote from the the Cato Institute which read “Foreigners from those seven nations have killed zero Americans in terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1975 and the end of 2015″.
Beyond the fact that the CATO quote does nor support the claim that the seven countries cited have not produced, or currently harboring, comparable terrorists to the four named Muslim allies in the region, the claim itself is patently false. One need only examine the list of indigenous and transnational groups who have who have been involved in the hostilities of the seven countries listed to see how utterly false that claim is. Take Syria for example:
1. Syria – Major opposition forces to Assad
a. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL/ISIS (est: 25,000-80,000) This group was originally known as al-Qaeda in Iraq.
b. Jabhat Fateh al-Sham (AKA Al-Nusra Front) (est: 15,000-20,000)This group began as the Iraqi backed Syrian offshoot of al Qaeda in 2011. it is largely comprised of hardened veterans fought against post 9/11 US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
c. Free Syrian Army (est: 100,000) This group is purportedly comprised of secular and Islamist Syrian military defectors whose sense of sheared nationalism fuels their opposition to Assad . However, “US Special Operation Forces veteran and author Jack Murphy wrote that “as early as 2013, FSA commanders were defecting with their entire units to join al-Nusra. There, they still retain the FSA monicker, but it is merely for show, to give the appearance of secularism so they can maintain access to weaponry provided by the CIA and Saudi intelligence services. The reality is that the FSA is little more than a cover for the al-Qaeda-affiliated al-Nusra.”
d. Ahrar ash-Sham (est: 10,000–20,000) This group is a Saudi backed coalition of multiple Islamist and Salafist units
e. Asala wa-al-Tanmiya (est: 13,000) This group is a US-backed and Saudi funded alliance of rebel groups
f. Sham Legion (est: 4,000) This group is an alliance of 19 Islamist rebel groups which formed in order to consolidate the strength of moderate Islamists during the Syrian Civil War.[1] The alliance was formed from 19 different groups, some of which were previously affiliated with the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood and Shields of the Revolution Council.
g. Ajnad al-Sham Islamic Union (est: 3,000) This group is an alliance of some of five Syrian Islamist rebel groups
h. Jaysh al-Islam (est: 17,000 – 25,000) This group is a Saudi created and funded coalition of Islamist (Salafist-Jihadist) units
I. Jaish al-Fatah (est: 10,000) This group is a Saudi created and funded joint command center of Islamist Syrian rebel factions
Are you beginning to get the picture??? Syrian born fighters are fighting along side of foreign born fighters in a manner that allows for ample cross-fertilization of political and religious (Salafist-jihadist) ideology. If Saudi Arabia is the progenitor of the Salafist-jihadist ideology that purportedly governed the actions of the Saudi born “terrorists” who participated in the attacks of 9/11, how can Glenn Greenwald claim that the tens of thousands of fighters who have comprised the numerous Saudi created and/or funded groups in Syria are not a comparable threat to those that originated in Saudi Arabia? Again, the United States does not have a working relationship with the Syrian government whereby they can readily ascertain background checks on potential immigrants from Syria.
I could create a list of US backed and Saudi funded Salafist-jihadist organizations who fought in the Libyan civil war – but I know that I would just be beating a dead horse in the process. The same holds true for most of the countries cited by Trump. But hey Mike, I know that you would much rather cherry pick the ancillary components of your opponents arguments for the purpose of ridiculing them out of context – this is why I have so much trouble making a clear distinction between you and Mona.
You are such a perfect Trumper. In your addled, racist brain you think you wrote something that disproves Glenn’s accurate claims. But then, like your Dear Leader, you do that “alternate fact” thing.
Yes, yes, you are greatly displeased by the many facts I’ve adduced against you devotion to the supreme goodness of white Christian America. So, like one other obsessive here, you’ve been running around claiming some dozen other commenters are actually my sock puppets.
Glenn’s had enough of that bullshit. Below he posted to the other freak — who addressed “Gert” as me — a second warning, as follows:
It stops now. Neither of you obsessed cretins are likely to avoid the ban hammer if it doesn’t.
I caught you red-handed less than two weeks ago lying about the simultaneous use of a known alter moniker – so save your lies for the person who has demonstrated the greatest capacity for believiong them, yourself.
Mirror mirror, on the wall…
You did no such thing. That was not me. I have never used that moniker in Glenn’s space since his days at Unclaimed Territory. (The only time that moniker has showed up anywhere since UT is when I was using a Google-associated app and hadn’t yet figured out how to change to “-Mona-“, which was not an issue here.)
Glenn knows me extremely well, and he firmly said: “She does not use multiple accounts.” End of. Your credibility is less than zero. Do it again and I will report you.
I do not believe you and I do not believe that that post was from Glenn Greenwald. So fuck off and report me! Wahhhh mommy the other kids don’t like my bullsit!!!! Fucking pathetic!
LOLOLOLOL
You are truly deranged. Even nuf knows and implicitly acknowledged that was Glenn. What, you think Glenn would put up with accounts impersonating him? Jesus on a cracker, but you are one fucked up hot mess.
Bye bye.
“no such terrorists”. That’s right. You misread it. What you guys always do.
Isn’t it interesting that, when faced with incontrovertible evidence that an article is logically and factually wrong, Glenn Greenwald’s apologists attempt to mask those failures behind a single word. Again, the exact same Saudi-funded Islamist-jihadist organization who was purportedly responsible for the attacks of 911 is the principle armed opposition to Assad. Thus there is no basis for comparison!
I, for one, would like to see it applied to all countries in which ‘FGM’ and polygamy (both US federal crimes) are widely practiced – as well as seeing our laws on these matters enforced for the first time (aside from against Mormons, and other US citizens). Now that would be a truly feminist policy!
Total idiocy, but I’ve come to expect it from those who support the policies of the Trump regime. By your logic, it would be perfectly reasonable for countries to deny entry to US citizens on the basis that the death penalty is practiced in the US. Most countries have banned the death penalty.
It would be sheer lunacy if differences in laws between countries were a basis for denying people entry.
A lot of people have noted that what Trump & the Republicans are doing nationally is what Pete Wilson tried to do in California in the 1990s, i.e. demonizing immigrants to shift the blame for failed policies. For example:
Trump’s immigration plan could hurt the GOP like Pete Wilson’s did, Jan 28 2017 OC Register
This is what destroyed the Republican Party in California; now its a Democratic supermajority because well over 60% of the voting public opposed these policies – and they could also see that the economic problems were not due to immigrants, but to the corporatocracy’s agenda – offshoring jobs, cutting wages and benefits, rigging electricity markets, etc.
Trump could easily end up in the same boat – his domestic policies on key issues like energy and infrastructure and health care are looking disastrous, and the resulting economic pain will be the opposite of what he promised. Only an FDR-style New Deal can restart the domestic economy at this point, and that’s not Trump – so he may try to blame the failures on immigrants, but voters won’t buy it any more than they bought Pete Wilson’s argument.
This creates a situation in which Democrats are highly likely to win the next Presidential election – and that’s why kicking the sleazy Clinton Democrats out of party leadership positions is so critically important. That’s the real battle that progressives should be concentrating on. Trump will tie his own rope without any help, and his main enemies are the likes of McCain in his own party, anyway.
This creates a situation in which Democrats are highly likely to win the next Presidential election
I agree, especially if they run Hillary again with perverts Podesta and Brock as her campaign managers. I advise that they should completely ignore trump and focus on Putin instead. I predict a landslide.
Absolutely right. Aside from the fact that voters, overall, have failed to buy into the nonsense spewed by Wilson and other Republicans, there is also the extremely inconvenient (for the bigots) reality that Latinos have been a plurality in California since for the past two or three years and the size of the plurality will only grow.
That this was inevitable was entirely obvious by the 90s. So, aside from being morally and ethically defective, the efforts by Wilson et al. were as politically stupid as can be.
The Repugs are on life support in California and recovery is unlikely.
Very interesting editorial but the weakness lies in the comparison with Europe in the 30’s and 40’s. Glenn unfortunately you made a factual error as the 2015 cartoon does Not depict refugees as rats… however the 1939 cartoon does depict them as rats. Furthermore it would be interesting to know how many refugees from these countries are concerned ? Also the special treatment of these countries might be an indirect hope that the bombing of these countries by the US and its allies might soon end.
I’ve recently checked some statistics on ‘who’ from the Middle East and Africa lands in Europe. While the overall ‘Syrian’ refugees demographics showed a distribution by gender and age that matched Syria’s population, what Europe was getting was overwhelmingly ‘men’ aged between 16 and 45 and very few women, children or old people.
Could it be that Syria’s men are such cowards that they flee their country’s disaster in much larger number than the women, children and the elderly that they are supposed to protect and flee much, much farther, not stopping near their country’s border but aiming for Germany, France or the UK? Or maybe they are not truly ‘refugees’?
It’s funny, I watched an RT livestream of France bulldozing the ‘Jungle’ camp in Calais some months ago and, to my surprise, practically all the poor refugees were men and nearly all of them had beards. Quite hilarious, actually.
The statistics (such as they are) indicate that of all the young single men who took Merkel up on her invitation, a minority are Syrians – who are well out-numbered by a combination of Afghans, Pakistanis, Iraqis, and North Africans – the latter, many of whom came via Turkey rather than the Med. Germany has admitted that as many as 400,000 of them were unaccounted for as of last August/September.
Indeed, I am too lazy to find those stats again but I remember that some African county’s ‘refugees’ were over 90% grownup men and the Afghans stats came pretty close with maybe 80% or more bearded men in their prime.
Curiouser and curiouser.
Follow the arms sales trail.
I like the comparison with Vietnam. There were two waves of immigration – in 1975, wave one of Vietnam refugees consisting of mainly South Vietnamese government and military members and their families, something like 100,000 people. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, there was a much larger wave, the Vietnamese ‘boat people’ exodus, mainly from rural areas. As with Cuban immigrants, they were generally accepted as part of the Carter-Reagan “anti-Communist” agenda.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/09/syria-refugees-europe-vietnam
Just as the U.S. did so much to devastate Vietnam, from Agent Orange to aerial bombardment, and so owed Vietnamese people a refuge from the violence, the same is true for what the U.S. has done in Iraq, Syria, and Libya. It’s called taking responsibility for your mistakes.
So what you are saying is that Trump does not want to take responsability for mistakes his predecessors have made. That is exactly what he promised the voters and what ‘America first’ means.
Well, for similar reasons, Germany should allow free immigration and citizenship for all Israeli citizens, too. . . Along with Ukraine and Hungary. ;)
The international community awarded them a country for their suffering…is’t that enough already.
I agree that Trump should stop allowing incoming visits from ALL Middle East countries and that should absolutely include Saudi, Qatar, Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon and definitely Israel aka the ‘Jewish’ state.
Trump is banning immigrants from the very countries that the U.S. government — under both Republicans and Democrats — has played a key role in destabilizing and destroying
And that is Self-Preservation 101. We should expect that many inhabitants of these countries who had relatives and friends droned to death by Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Obama or DoubleCrap Bush or just plainly bombed or missiled by the Clintons do not like us too much and some may be seeking revenge. I strongly opposed all dronings and signature bombings and I hope all perpetrators to include DoubleCrap, Condi, Rummy, Obama, Rice, Power, all of them will face justice someday if not on this Earth, hopefully somewhere in Hell. At the same time, I don’t agree that it would be a good idea to import more terrorists into our country. Like I said: self preservation.
And, by the way, what Trump does is what Trump promised as he campaigned for the job. So, it’s like this:
1 – Trump campaigns, promises to do things if elected.
2 – Trump gets elected.
3 – Trump does what he promised.
It’s as simple as that, really. I believe he CLEARLY stated that there was going to be a temporary pause in admitting people from these places until what he calls ‘extreme vetting’ is instated. According to what I’ve read, the bans temporary. Hopefully, the promised extreme vetting will be truly so.
The Deputy Legal Director of the ACLU:
Trump is ISIS’ new best friend. This is an utter gift to them.
Trump is ISIS new best friend by trying HARDER to keep ISIS out of our country? Hmmm… yeah, I see your point. I believe Orwell called it ‘doublespeak’?
You do know what chaff is right ?
My uncle , Bill was a bombardier in the day flights over Germany , circa 1944 .
You ,, my dear Mona toss your chaff about ,, circa 2017 .
Throwing quotes and links is So Guttural . Do you think that the more space the dribble occupies the better it is ?
Tch,,tch ,,,,,,you children ,,,, BEHAVE !!
Banning innocents who flee from wars we caused is Self-Preservation 101, now?
Gert, the innocents have no reason to fly all the way to the US. They could stay in their country and help defend it from Saudi and Obama-sponsored terrorists, Turkey and Israel, they could settle in camps at the border, they could cross into Turkey… it’s hard to understand why they would want to come specifically to the US. We are a DIFFERENT culture and, based on what I saw in Queens, New York and other places, most refugees from this part of the world refuse to accept our way or life and assimilate.
Anyways, and THIS is Trump point, we do not know how innocent they are, therefore the need for what he calls ‘extreme’ vetting. Yes, ‘we’ the American people are to a large degree responsible for what is going on in the ME because of our stupid support of Israel and Saudi despots and our direct destabilizing interventions but, like I said, Self Preservation… errr… Trumps charity.
Do you have the same observation wrt, e.g., the Hasidim in Williamsburg? The Amish in Lancaster County? The Lakota at Pine Ridge?
We don’t have a way of life, and never have, you narrow-minded bigot.
To some degree. I lived in New York for about 10 years and 5 of those years I lived in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn and I know what you’re talking about. The Hasidim were/are a sore sight but I don’t believe they bother anyone. Unlike the Muslims, I don’t believe the Jews have a country of their own because I don’t believe that Jews have a legitimate claim on what is today known as Israel. Muslims, on the other hand, have dozens of officially or majority Muslim countries so it’s not the same thing.
As for the Amish, I live in Pennsylvania now, not far from Amish country. The Amish are wonderful people and I buy some of their veggies. They’ve been here for centuries and I don’t believe we’ve had any incidents of Amish terrorism in the past couple hundred years. Also, they are not attempting to immigrated into the US en-masse.
Oh, you stupid twit. I guess you were also in favour of keeping German Jews out, because of their “different culture”?
Gert, you imbecile, I guess you are not very good at reading so allow me to quote myself:
Unlike the Muslims, I don’t believe the Jews have a country of their own because I don’t believe that Jews have a legitimate claim on what is today known as Israel. Muslims, on the other hand, have dozens of officially or majority Muslim countries so it’s not the same thing.
Talk about firing off a non sequitur.
The answer then is to do what Eishenhower urged us to do all those years ago – get control of our military-industrial complex, and clean up our own very filthy ship of state. I notice that your list of knaves does not include Hillary, who promised that she would impose a no-fly zone in Syria.
That, and the war sure to follow – would have been a nice little earner for the usual suspects – and the mother of all meat grinders for our kids to be sent into. I believe that there was a much underestimated anti-war reason for Trump’s win among so many democrats, independents and military people – interesting that no pollsters can be bothered to ask voters about this.
One of the more powerful motivators of me voting for Trump and actively trying to persuade everyone I knew to do the same – we DID win Pennsylvania – was Hillary’s insane suggestion that we should risk a nuclear war with Russia over the mess that WE helped create in Syria. True, Trump may help trigger a war with China but I’d rather be nuked by China than Russia because Russia has like 100 times more nukes than China does.
How many times over do you want to be nuked?
S/he’d rather be nuked by China.
OK. It’s just after 1 pm here in the US Pacific time zone. I’ve had my lunch and now I’m going to do a little glue-sniffing to clear my mind.
Glen,
Your ability to speak with such clarity is exemplary.
Keep it up; your pen is indeed mightier than the sword, and its effect can be global.
Hey Mel ,
Did you read
it’s not impossible to imagine policies that could be worse in this regard.
What the hell was that ?
Glenn is running scared,,, that’s what !!
These wars are about money, of course, and oil money in particular. Want justice? Get off of oil.
We brought apartheid to an end with global boycott pressure.
Do you really want to make a difference? We need to start with a two day a week all fossil fuel boycott.
We need to unplug, stay home, or share electric car rides (maybe city buses at the beginning).
People can do this smartly – life support essentials stay on, but anything else is off. Humans lived for eons without using gas or coal, and we can get by twice a week without it.
We can do this for three months and if the pipelines and oil trains continue we add another day to the boycott.
The only thing that speaks is money. Getting thrown in jail feeds their fire, not ours- it drains our energy, and financial resources.
Boycott or watch the air fill with methane from the melting permafrost. The “drill baby drill” global oligarchies can’t wait for it, and transport wars continue to grow.
DON’T PAY TAXES !
Oh ,, sorry ,, they take tax at the checkout counter .
Nice sentiments, Carol, but there are a couple of key flaws in what you propose. First, we get most of our oil from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela, so boycotting oil won’t have the intended effect on the ME. Second, where do you think electricity comes from? (Answer, burning fossil fuels, mostly.) Beyond that, it shouldn’t take a boycott to motivate people to consume less energy. Americans are the world’s biggest energy hogs/wasters, and as such, through our demand, we drive the industry. Anyone who’s truly serious about stemming global warming needs to look first at their own behavior before clamoring for the powers that be to change the system. If you leave a single light on in an empty room in your home, you’re part of the problem, not the solution.
Trump is an old story under a new name, but this does not take away the pain of those impacted by the insanity of this man and his ilk.
Human history is littered with stories of insane and inane leaders and the fools that fell for the insanity.
Yes, the media, the Democrats, the Republicans, and others have failed us, but the attempt by some to use these failings as a counterweight for justifying the actions of Trump and his team — actions which will hurt millions — should be impossible to vindicate.
Yet, there you have it — we have folks here trying to rationalize the irrational!
Perhaps Trump’s great service to us is to remind us that you can fool some of the people all the time.
JayZ—–>Perhaps Trump’s great service to us is to remind us that you can fool some of the people all the time/b>
—————————————————————————————————
That’s Soooo political . Just do it in time !!
and make sure they hang their guns outside before they come into vote !
My favorite section of this entire piece. I could not agree more. All this is Obama’s fault. And if you can’t see it, you’re not looking hard enough.
You must live in Jersey ,, Right ?
It takes a Jersey IQ to read the crap .
It takes a NYC boy’s IQ to know that the comments are the story !
I live under the sea Mudbone.
But you’re correct about my IQ. It most definitely is lower than I’d like it to be.
It seems US is getting better refugees from those countries than us here in Scandinavia then. Last year Iraqi asylum seekers killed at least 3 people in my home country (which has a population of 5+ million) and the number of sexual assaults has skyrocketed since the refugee situation escalated. If you look at the situation in Sweden which is the leading country in Europe on rape statistics, the unlimited acceptance of refugees from mostly muslim countries has led to a formation of no-go- zones and regular gun violence, previously unheard of in Nordic countries. The segregated and poor immigrant areas all over Europe are a proof of a cultural shift that shouldn’ t be happening and it’ s effect on our,especially women’s safety, has been negative. Stating these facts has nothing to do with racism or islamophobia, but these negative effects of immigration are heavily censored by the media thus inhibiting any reasonable discussion over the matter.
I suppose the situation in the US is somewhat different, but I can understand the reasoning behind Trump’s decision. Actually I would welcome such ban anytime in my own country. Supporting certain ethnic groups on social welfare from generation to generation is not very sustainable, especially when many of them show no signs of respect to our customs and culture. Instead they have made our previously safe country unsafe or at least not contributing anything for it. And to be honest, most of these people come from countries mentioned in the Trump’s list. We need to help needy people, but the current refugee system at least in Europe just doesn’t work. Better to work for lasting peace in the Middle East and the African nations instead of creating situations that threaten the welfare of the citizens of our own nations.
Glenn,
On its face, Trump’s Muslim ban is unconstitutional and cannot stand up to even cursory judicial review, regardless of the judge’s political leanings. What does that tell us about Team Trump? Either Team Trump (1) is profoundly ignorant of (or have no regard for) our laws and constitution, or (2) they drafted the Muslim ban to be struck down. The latter possibility is more frightening as it indicates a gambit to a larger, deeper game to undermine our institutions and the Rule of Law.
THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
is and has been a mass murdering , torturing , capitalistic , mob controlled enterprise since 1951
Glenn ,,
Brazil’s government is peanuts compared to the global savagery of the US GOVERNMENT !!
BUY A GUN AND VOTE FOR JESUS !! KILL A COP TODAY !!
And that ain’t even taking into account the two nuclear bombs dropped on the women and children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 !!
Do you think you can take this comment and the several others of yours you’ve added to it and combine them in to a coherent single comment?
Treating your future comments this way seems advisable, too.
Absent that, you may want to try a typewriter or word processing program on your individual computer, instead.
Trump is an idiot and this ban won’t make anyone safer, but must we always relate everything back to Germany and the 1930s? If these Syrians are really analogous to the Jews fleeing Europe in the 1930s doesn’t that mean we have an obligation to regard Assad as another Hitler? Or is Trump the new Hitler? If so, I suppose that would make The Intercept the KPD in this scenario.
Wut?!?
The Intercept certainly directed most of their fire at Hillary and the Dems during the campaign. The KPD (the Communists) concentrated their attacks on the SPD (the Social Democrats) during the rise of Hitler.
Bar a few known Hillary sycophants, the contributors of TI have reserved their ire as much to the Dummocrats as to the GOP/Orange One.
I don’t think you actually read TI or maybe in a cherry-picking way.
Well, maybe you didn’t read Mackey at the time? He had a pink safe space at TI where he could bash Trump all day long without the ability for readers to comment.
Or remember Greenwald, who said at 11 October 2016
‘DONALD TRUMP, FOR reasons I’ve repeatedly pointed out, is an extremist, despicable, and dangerous candidate, and his almost-certain humiliating defeat is less than a month away.’
“Wut?!?”
Wait, who posts like that, what, mona.
Wait, who posts like that, what, mona.
You’re quite the sleuth, aren’t you?
Wut, wut, wut, wut, wut, wut, wut, wut, wut, wut, wut
Please stop this. She does not use multiple accounts. This person is not even in the same region. You sow confusion when you make these false claims. It’s unfair to other readers but also to the commenter you’re falsely accusing of being Mona.
Thank you.
Fair enough, Glenn.
Will you ask -Mona- to stop labeling me an antisemite?
Are you an anti-Semite? If not why do you care how Mona labels an anonymous pseudonym of yours?
I’m pretty convinced at this point, that 99.9% of people wouldn’t peddle half the shit they do on the internet to people in meat space, if they didn’t/couldn’t hide behind pseudonyms. You being a perfect case in point.
” If not why do you care how Mona labels an anonymous pseudonym of yours?”
Wow, rr playing the ‘I post with my real name’ card.
It is a fundamental thing when the messenger is attacked for the message.
i personally have no issue with being called something. It is when -Mona- in her glory derides the messenger to other commenters. She does this with other commenters.
She used the same tactic when I described in what way the NIST 911 report is bogus. She prattles on about how she wished she was a chemist, blah, blah, as she calls me a “crank” who has “simple math” and announces that I should be ignored. This from a person who referred to an inequality sign as a “sideways carot [sic]”.
With her claim to be Glenn’s former law partner, she demonstrates an appalling lack of respect for discourse on Glenn’s site.
“rr playing the ‘I post with my real name’ card.”
The board had something to say after Matt Schwartz launched that same balloon a couple of days ago.
(It was not supportive of his claim I would receive more credibility if I used my real name …)
It takes some time to establish a reputation as an intelligent commenter. I’ve put that time in. No one has debunked my description of the material behavior of the tower collapses because i am right.
Why is it so hard to believe a shadow government pulled off 911? PNAC described what they needed and it has all happened as planned.
That he is is beyond reasonable doubt to anyone paying attention to his many antisemitic comments. That is not my assessment alone:
Doc replied, his emphasis:
Whole sub-thread here.
You left out a part of the conversation Mona – the part where I consider it somewhat ironic that you are referring to anyone as an antisemite:
craigsummers ? DocHollywood
January 14 2017, 7:52 a.m.
“………Politics makes strange bedfellows, Doc. Or maybe it’s not that strange in your case. “Nuf said” has a long history on these threads of insensitivity toward Jews like:
“……….You wonder why the world had Jews wearing Yellow Stars 200 years before Hitler dolled them out?……”
EVEN Mona has called him an antisemite on numerous occasions…….”
READERS: About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican who saiud he was a Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board.
Character assassination is the sign of a desperate position.
The term anti-semite is as meaningless as the term ‘terrorist’. They both achieve the goal of demonizing.
You missed the important part ofDoc Hollywood:
You are about as bright as craigsummers, apparently, because he missed Doc’s point too.
No wonder you persist with personal attacks in tandem with your handles.
there is no way Glenn can state, with certainty, you only have one handle. I will honor his request because you are a decade-old “wretched liar” gadfly.
Yet, he just did. Not only does he have administrative access to see what addresses are consistently identified with which accounts, he can tell approximately where in the world they are posting from. Further, we have long been friends and worked closely together for several years. (Which is why he’s given my name and contact info to, e.g., Buzzfeed, when they are doing a story on him per se.)
Glenn generally knows how my mind works (which is reciprocal). Scads of socks, or even one, is just not something I’d do. I don’t care whether an antisemitic obsessive such as you believes that; Glenn does.
Additionally, Glenn does not believe the term “antisemite” is meaningless, notwithstanding the gross abuse Zionists make of the term. Nor do I, and neither do Gator and Doc who have both appropriately applied it to you, as have others.
You will honor his request, by the way, because you have little choice. He’s been nicer to you than he would be to most behaving as you have been because of your seniority in his comments. (At one time, I and many others thought of you as one of us; your antisemitism is not something anyone recalls as apparent before this site.) He’s not one, however, to have infinite patience.
I will not tolerate your stating, suggesting or implying that another account is me. That leaves me with the option of denying it and thereby facilitating your hijacking the discussion with your unhinged, negative fixation on me. Or, ignoring you and having new readers wonder if it is true. I won’t have that any longer.
It stops now. You do not have a choice.
Hey nuf,
how do you know that that was Glenn Greenwald addressing you? Mona made a point of addressing me with my own moniker a few weeks back…
HAHAHAHA
Yeah, sure thing. Glenn Greenwald sits still for people impersonating him in his comments section. That sounds just like him.
Say, why don’t you email Glenn and the Intercept staff and report this great travesty!11!!11!! I mean, that fake Glenn Greenwald is me, right? Have ’em get me, Karl — come on, you can do it. I, or someone, is putting false words in the mouth of this site’s co-founder11!!!
You are a real-time demonstration of the typical ardent Trumper: Alternate facts, alternate realities, Occam’s Razor has no space in your head, and extreme unreasonableness on constant display.
God, I do love the Internet.
“This person is not even in the same region. ”
What function does Tor perform?
You put the evidentiary bar for me being Mona about as high as for 9/11 being an ‘inside job’.
“Tor performs a function ergo Gert = Mona”
Anyway, you’ve heard the man: knock it off!
““Tor performs a function ergo Gert = Mona””
to be fair Glenn used the defense that you were in a different region which is exactly what tor does.
odd you needed to respond like mona with threats
c’est la vie
Tor ISP addresses change and can be identified as such; indeed, they can be filtered and are at many sites. My ISP address does not change becasue I do not use Tor (except a few years ago when I and a number of others were trapped in the commercial spam filter, which I abandoned once the site’s IT people figured out why it was happening and made it stop). If the person accused of being me also consistently has the same ISP address in a region far from mine, we cannot be the same person.
But just as importantly, Glenn and I know one another very well. He knows socks are not something that would occur to me, certainly not to reply approvingly to myself. Nor would I ever lie to him and watch him publicly rely on such a lie. That would be unconscionable and he’s fully aware I’d never do that to him.
Yes, appreciated, Glenn.
Is it possible to setup a commentary section that requires authentication such as a FB, Twitter, Google+ type account? Please?
No.
if you look at the the cartoons it appears that the comparison offers itself in a nearly exact repetition of attitude and imagery used by the West to characterize, demonize and dehumanize an ethnic immigrant population as a means of political opportunism and populism.
with any analogue there will be aspects that are not similar or are not exactly alike. always. that fact in itself doesn’t negate the similarities.
I’m not an expert on the history of cartoons, but I doubt the Nazis were the first to use rats as a visual metaphor. And the Daily Mail isn’t even an American paper. Its strange how Eurocentric the advocates of multiculturalism always seem to be.
what relevance would the originality of dehumanizing a certain population for political gain hold? if you’d care to cite other instances, go right ahead. the similarity between the two examples above stands.
you realize that both examples above are from European sources. that would be another check in the “similar” box. that Trump is now pursuing a similar policy is why we here in the US should be paying attention, nez pas? this particular pattern of events appears to apply to a persistent Western ideological construct.
you’re kind of all over the place here.
No, Assad is not Hitler in this scenario, because it isn’t him who is driving those people away, but the backing of the fractions that oppose him. I’m not defending Assad here for anything, but if you want to go for a figure of the refugees Assad has “caused”, take numbers before the Arab spring.
“It is often the case that extremists on both sides of a protracted conflict end up mirroring one another’s attributes, mentality and tactics. That is precisely what we are now witnessing as anti-Muslim crusaders in the U.S. adopt the same premises as ISIS and its allies: that the west and Muslims are inherently and irreconcilably adverse. As my colleague Murtaza Hussain described in 2015, the ultimate strategic and propaganda goal of ISIS is to eliminate the “gray zone” for western Muslims, “generating hostility between domestic Muslim populations and the broader societies that they live in” so as to convince both sides that they should be at war rather than striving for harmony and assimilation.”
It’s not Muslims as people who are necessarily at odds with post-enlightenment Western values, rather it’s any normative, conventional version of Islam. Muslims may or may not adhere to such ideology; there are plenty of nominal Muslims or Muslims who are less than fully stepped in the religion. The fact that right-wingers highlight the differences between the Western and Islamic intellectual traditions for less-than-noble ends doesn’t mean they don’t really exist; after all right wingers highlighted soviet totalitarianism for often less than noble ends, but of course that doesn’t mean that the soviet union wasn’t totalitarian in nature. You should try to keep an open mind and not reflexively become an apologist for something because the right keeps harping on its evils.
At any rate, I see nowhere in this article where you actually address the criticisms of Islam or the proposed irreconcilable differences between Islamic ideology and Western values – you simply assail the motivations of those who make these arguments. So tell me, why do you think Islam’s vision of a political framework based on religion is compatible with secularism? Why don’t you think Islam’s vision divinely designated gender roles conflicts with Western notions of the socially created and maintained nature of gender roles (and for some, gender itself)? Why don’t you think Islam’s idea of same-sex love and desire as inherently evil and prohibited clashes with our recent progress in accepting these relations as valid and good?
You consider Islam as a monolith.
It’s not.
It’s very diverse, and there are many islams in existence.
So the term, “Islam’s vision” does not reflect the reality.
Islam’s vision, according to whom? — is what you need to figure out.
Generally speaking, the Sufis have a different vision of Islam than the non-Sufis.
The Puritanical Salafis have a different vision of Islam than other kinds of Muslims; though some of the ideas of Puritanical Salafism have infiltrated into the consciousness of non-Salafa/Wahhabi Muslims.
Even within Sufi forms of Islam there are differences. Some have become rigid with too much focus on outer forms with a lack of universalism, while others remain universalists and focus a lot more on the inner realities than outer forms, which they see as dynamic and flexible.
How you would determine Islam’s vision may be quite different from how many Muslims would determine.
So the picture is very complex.
Moreover, what is “Secularism”, anyway?
If by secularism you mean treating all religions equally, then you and I both agree.
But if by secularism, you mean anti-religion (generally speaking), then we may disagree on some points and agree on other points, such as the dangers of organized religion and too much formalization and utilization of it through the lower self, that is, for power, control and using it as opium.
^^^^^^
I have never read a better argument for better vetting.
Even if it will make things rather complicated as distinguishing between Sufis and Wahhbists at the border is very hard to implement.
1. These “distinctions” are seldom undertaken at the border.
2. If you have difficulty distinguishing between Sufis and Wahhabis, you certainly shouldn’t be working in a consular post dealing with Muslims.
3. Favoring or disfavoring one religious group over another is unconstitutional. Period.
1) Dooh
2) Dooh
So you now pretend to be a smart by saying the same as I am saying?
I don’t think the above will register in your brain, but, nice guy as I am, I tried.
3) well, Sufi was proposing even a more intricate (dis)favoring
Wow, Tony, you figured it out! I’m pretending to be smart by parroting you.
“I have never read a better argument for better vetting.”
what was lacking in the vetting process as it existed last week?
A sensible, rational, fact-based, consistent, just and fair approach is needed.
Everyone knows who has been exporting Wahhabism.
Why support that source?
The Islam I’m talking about is, again, the “normative and conventional” Islam we’ve lived with for the last 14 centuries. I’m not talking about the Ahmadis, Sufis, Yazidis, or other marginal groups – who are of course considered apostates by most Muslims because their views stray too far from the mainstream. According to whom? Well, according to the Quran, Hadiths, Sira, and the vast majority of Islamic discourse produced.
I’m using the word “secularism” in this context to signify the political ideology – the idea that the form of government, laws and policies of a society shouldn’t be based on religion, but rather on merely the temporal “common good” of the polity.
And that’s exactly where human interpretations of these sources play a major role in determining what exactly Islam is and what exactly Islam is saying.
Many methodologies have been developed to examine these sources for the authenticity and applicability and interpret them.
For example, the Quran is the most authentic source. It is also the earliest source.
Hadiths and Sira came after the Quran.
If one examines Hadiths and Sira in light of the Quran, one will come to different conclusions on many issues, than if one examines the Quran in light of Hadiths and Sira.
Also, if one takes them literally, without regard for textual and historical contexts, one will draw one set of conclusions.
But if one examines them within their textual and historical contexts, one will come to another set of conclusions.
Also, saying “the vast majority of Islamic discourse produced” is a bit misleading, when one looks at the sheer volume of what the Muslims have said over the past 1400 odd years, most of which is either not published or has been orally transmitted.
Even today, a tremendous amount of discourse amongst the Muslims, and by many, many Muslim scholars, is oral and has not been published.
My point is that the reality is much, much more complex than is stated in these forums.
So Ahmadis and Sufis (Yazidis are an ethnic group if I’m not mistaken) are considered apostates? by whom?
If you believe there is only one god and Muhammad is the last prophet, you’re a Muslim. I don’t know who taught you your Islam, and it’s vision, but I’m thinking you’re channeling your inner Sam Harris.
Also, dear Harrold, Muslims don’t get up in the morning and practice some sort of “vision.” They get up in the morning, have breakfast, go to work, and then come back. And if they do bad things, like beat their wives, or kick their dogs, it’s for that society’s criminal laws to take care of it. You can beat your wife in India too, even if you’re Hindu. I don’t know if you knew that.
Muslims aren’t a special form of humans, who get up in the morning and live their lives by a “vision.” Muslms play the drums, listen to music, are addicted to drugs and alcohol, molest children, are kind to animals, watch tv, watch porn, read comic books, make friends, get into fights, have sex in and out of marriage, etc. They do all the crazy shit, everybody else does. They don’t wake up in the morning and turn into a Muslim Machine, and live their lives by some Sam Harris Vision, Harrold.
One definition of secularism, in this context, would be:
It is a term that doesn’t exist in Islamic culture. Well, Ottoman invaders did implement something remotely similar in regions that they conquered.
But Ottoman/Turkey sort of secularism is falling apart these days. It is telling.
Thus, the Islamist states are either a theocracy or a dictatorship nowadays, as they were from the birth of Islam.
It may not exist, or be popular, because it is usually understood to mean “Rejection of the Sacred” and “Anti-Religion”.
However, the idea of treating all religions equally, with respect, and see the Truth in every human being, is not foreign to the Muslims.
And the idea that religion, when applied for public policies, screws up things is also not alien to the Muslims.
Again, people here are over-simplifying things when it comes to the world of Islam as well as Islam as a path.
Secularism exists in Christian culture? Where in the bible does it talk about secularism?
Secularism exists in Western culture, despite the pressures of Christianity, because it is the political culture of the West. Indonesia is a secular society despite Islam. Kazakshtan, Kosovo, Malaysia, Senegal, Bangladesh, Uzbekistan, Lebanon, Tajikistan among other Muslim majority countries are all secular by law, despite Islam, and inspite of extremist violence that takes place in those countries.
Secularism does not exist in religion, and it does not exist in Christianity, in spite of how things may appear. The Western legal system is the only thing that protects minority religions, not Christianity, or Christian culture.
Nice to see you again, Sufi. A welcome breath of fresh air.
Thanks,
Not much has changed since I last commented on this site over 3.5 months ago — a site I don’t read much any longer, except for one writer.
The arguments presented against Islam and Muslims are same old.
My main purpose of commenting here today was to address the Muslim readers and urge them to act patiently and through the higher consciousness: turn the other cheek, and if there are those Muslims who are activists, I advise them to encompass it within love, generosity, humility, selflessness, etc.
That I also got involved with responding to the anti-Islam/Muslim commenters is actually pointless and is an infinite loop.
“responding to the anti-Islam/Muslim commenters is actually pointless and is an infinite loop.”
I understand. If it helps, please know that by commenting here you set an example, that of modeling behavior. Sure, it falls in deaf ears much of the time (including mine) but nevertheless, we need voices like yours – more now than ever.
Hmm!
I see!
Thanks,
There is a lot of fear amongst the Muslims, and I want to reassure them that turning the other cheek and act kindly and returning badness with goodness is the answer.
Since muslims can’t come to an agreement on what they preach, all we can do is look at what they have practiced all the way back to their founder who was a militaristic invader/fighter/conqueror etc. from day one.
It’s not about preaching. I and many Muslims are not preachers. I am merely sharing my own point of view.
If you are going to determine what Islam is based on how the Muslims have acted, you will find that they have acted in extremely diverse ways throughout their history, ranging from Evil to Bad to Fair to Good to Excellent.
What criteria would you use to pick and choose the actions of the Muslims that you consider to be evil to bad and classify them as the Real Islam, and not choose their fair to good to excellent actions as the Real and True Islam?
Could it be that you’d choose those actions that you consider to be evil to bad and make a determination of what Islam is based on them because that’s what your own inner state is?
In other words, could it be that you are merely projecting your own inner state?
There are countless Muslims carrying out fair to good to excellent actions throughout the world every single day.
Why not look at them and say: This is a true representation of Islam!?
You noticed, I am quite sure, that I didn’t pick just any Muslim’s actions to highlight, but a pretty important Muslim. I’ll leave it there.
This is what you wrote:
You are clearly referring to ALL Muslims all the way back to their founder. Your words, not mine.
I’m suggesting that if Muslims can’t agree on the tenets of Islam, then all the aggressive, violent Muslims have to do to justify violence against others in the name of Islam is to cite the actions of their founder. It’s a conundrum for the rest of us.
Then what about those Muslims who are loudly disagreeing with these violent Muslims?
What about this 600+ page fatwa against terrorism, for just one small example?
http://www.minhajbooks.com/images-books/Edict-Terrorism-Fitna-Khawarij/Edict-Terrorism-Fitna-Khawarij_1.pdf
And what are the tenets of Islam, as you understand?
Again, re-read your comments. You were blaming ALL Muslims. But now, you are only referring to those who are carrying out violence in the name of Islam.
As for citing the examples of the founder, read the above 600+ page fatwa. It cites many traditions of the Prophet (S).
This is just one scholar. There are many, many, many other scholars who cite the examples and actions of the founder of Islam.
Do those Muslims who disagree with the violent ones and cite the actions of the founder to support their disagreement matter?
Sufi Muslim,
Respectfully, at this point in history due to the miracle of the Internet and journalists like Glenn Greenwald, some Americans are realizing just how massively we have been lied to and led around by the nose forever by evil people in power in our country. We don’t know what to believe for sure about anything anymore that we don’t witness first hand. I don’t want to disrespect Islam. I realize that most of the current mayhem in the Middle East was caused by vile, evil, cowardly people in my own government. And, I’ll say it because I believe it. Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney & company were behind 9/11 not Muslims. Any Muslims involved were dupes. Look it up. The wonders of the internet. But, with all the craziness, I also believe that it was only by the grace of God that Trump got elected and not the most corrupt plutocrat enabling politician of all time, HRC. So here we are. Regular Americans want Trump to restore order everywhere starting with rooting out all the very evil SOB’s in our own backyard but also calling a general timeout on Muslim immigration while we sort through what is the truth and what is BS. That’s all. Honestly.
As I have stated before, a reasonable, rational, fact-based, just, and wise approach is needed.
I’d add that the approach must be taken through the higher consciousness.
ADDENDUM:
You also did not address these parts of my comments:
Obviously, you don’t know history. Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, Crusades, etc ring a bell?
If you’d been here in 1850:
I don’t understand your point. Were people in the 19th century wrong to be concerned about Catholic political power? You do understand much of European history was indeed characterized by states trying to wrest control away from the church, right?
Also, you’re missing my point. Where are the liberals who make apologetic arguments about how the enlightenment and Catholicism are really compatible, and everyone who says otherwise is a racist bigot. I don’t see them, yet I do see that kind of sophistry and nonsense for Islam.
Good to se you siding with the Protestant bigots of the 19th century. And earlier. The massacres of the French Revolution were driven in part by hostility to Catholicism, some of it deserved.
And that’s the point. There were legitimate reasons to be critical of the backward anti- liberal attitudes of the Catholic Church in the 19th century, but that was no justification for mistreating individual Catholics. Over and over again we see people justifying their own brand of bigotry and sometimes outright atrocities in the name of defending liberal Western values. Islamophobia is part of a long and disreputable tradition.
Absolutely. Well said. But those legitimate criticisms did not redeem the vile British bigotry (which was quite different from French secularists attacks) and lethal policies toward Catholic Ireland. Or Know-Nothingism here in the U.S.
And I’ve advocated mistreating Muslims (or anyone) where exactly?
Oh good. Thank you for exposing exactly what you are. I need say no more about your “arguments.”
I’ve made no attempt to conceal who I am; I’m a secularists and make no apologies for it. If that makes me a bigot then so we’re Robespierre, Voltaire, Jefferson etc.
You cretin, you are defending the vicious bigots of Britain who were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Irish Catholics. You are defending the Nativists who lynched priests and burned U.S. convents.
You are depraved, which makes it quite aptthat you claim Robespierre for your side — he was complicit in a heinous Reign of Terror. Secularism is another ism which, when fanatically held, can be as monstrous as any other. (I’m an atheist, but I know history and do not exempt other atheists from moral judgment.)
What?! When did I ever defend the persecution of Catholics? You do realize there is a difference between wanting to disestablish the church as a political entity and lynching priests or massacring people, right?
Also, what is moderate secularism and what it fanatical secularism? I guess a moderate secularist is OK with just a little theocracy? Yeah, I guess I’m pretty fanatical then, I don’t want any theocracy. Just like I don’t want any oppression of any variety.
“You are depraved,”
There’s the mona we all know so well.
don’t forget this one:
So tell me, do you think the Christian right’s vision of a political framework based on religion is compatible with secularism? If it isn’t, do you think we should limit political participation by members of that group and prevent immigration by Christians who, similarly, believe that their moral values should be the foundation of law?
Do you think Catholicism’s vision vision of divinely-designated gender roles conflicts with Western notions of the socially created and maintained nature of gender roles (and for some, gender itself)? If so, should we ban Catholics from the targeted nations?
Do you think the Southern Baptist Convention’s idea of same-sex love and desire as inherently sinful and prohibited (the Convention’s official statement on the issue “affirm[s] God’s plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a ‘valid alternative lifestyle.'”) clashes with our recent progress in accepting these relations as valid and good? How should we deal with the participation of Southern Baptists in our politics and should we prohibit immigration of Christians (e.g., Eastern Orthodox, who make up significant numbers of the Christians in some of the countries targeted by Trumps order) who hold similar views wrt LGBT people and behavior?
Hmm?
Harrold: “It’s not the same.”
Oh, I do think political participation by Christian theocrats should be limited – in the sense that their theocratic designs shouldn’t be allowed, constitutionally, to come to fruition and their proposals should be considered beyond of the pale of acceptable, mainstream discourse. This is *supposed* to a secular state, remember?
As for your questions about weather I consider Christian doctrines compatible with enlightenment ones, of course not. But I don’t see the same liberal apologia for them as I do for Islam. And of course this whole line of questioning is a big red herring – If I were to criticize Nazism, no one comes up out of a blue with “Would you say the same about Francoism?” whatabouterry.
Well, as long as we pay attention to the Constitution, we’re safe from that — not that we always have, wrt Christianity. And there’s no reason to think that Muslim theocrats are any more problematic than their Christian counterparts. Indeed, given the relative numbers I would suggest the opposite.
Well, you can decide for yourself what discourse is “acceptable,” but you may only decide for yourself. See the Free Speech Clause of that amendment we’ve been chatting about.
Totally disagree. There are certain norms that pervade our political culture (e.g. an avowed Nazi would not be an acceptable, mainstream candidate), and I think secularism needs to be one of those norms.
“As for your questions about weather I consider Christian doctrines compatible with enlightenment ones, of course not. But I don’t see the same liberal apologia for them as I do for Islam.”
are you equating an objection to the application of a religious (anti-muslim) test as part of US immigration policy with “liberal apoligia” for islam?
What is this “Islam’s vision?” you’re talking about? Where? the vision in Saudi Arabia, or the vision in Malaysia or the vision in Indonesia? Where?
You seem to be under the opinion that homophobia comes from religion and not human societal norms. Religion exacerbates the problem, I absolutely agree, because of the text. But are you suggesting that it’s easy being gay in China, in Japan, or in Russia, because “Islam’s vision” doesn’t exist there. I suggest you use google, and find out what it’s like to be gay in Japan, or maybe google transgender rights in China.
Religious people justify their existing bigotries through the texts they claim to follow and lead their lives by. You Harrold, on the other hand, justify your bigotries through the prevailing bigotries of your society. Good job Harrold. Act like a human. Never think like one. Right Harrold?
Again, the normative Islamic position on government is that it should be based on divine Islamic sources, not “merely human” ones. This is a widespread norm both historically and geographically, not some “fundamentalism” or other misplaced idea.
Also, I’m not sure that homophobia comes, ultimately, religion or human societal norms. It may have some biological determinants, which inform social norms and religious doctrine, and are sanctified and made unassailable by religion.
As for China and Japan, so what? Other people besides Muslims are homophobic, for other reasons….which has what exactly to do with weather Islam is or is not homophobic? More inane whatabouterry.
Oversimplification and distortion.
You’re the one who brought up homophobia as an excuse to put Islam in a special category. I did not. I was merely replying to your bigoted bullshit.
The “normative Islamic position” where? Outside of the Middle East, almost no majority Muslim country practices Sharia law. Most muslim countries follow some sort of European “common law,” based on what European country colonized them.
I no longer know what the fuck it is you’re talking about Harrold, other than, you don’t like Muslims very much and would like them to stay away. I get that part Harrold.
“More inane whatabouterry.”
That’s the normative,
keywords + cadence = low entropy
What’s the relevance of “Islam’s vision” anyway? Major religions are generally at odds with liberal and progressive values, and the US is a very fundamentalist country. Everyone understands that. Yet, we should also understand that key liberal values include freedom of religion, freedom of thought and tolerance.
For those interested, see “The Vision of Islam”, by Sachiko Murata and William Chittick, at https://www.amazon.com/Vision-Visions-Reality-Sachiko-Murata/dp/1557785163/
Not everyone sees Islam as a political ideology. As a matter of fact, those who do may in fact be in minority.
There are a lot of debate and disagreements amongst the Muslims on Islam’s vision.
Trumps enemies:
“The House of Rothschild, the richest family in the world, controls more wealth than the world’s top 8 individual billionaires combined – and even more shockingly, more wealth than 75% of the total world population.”
George Soros is dealing in favour of the House of Rothschild and one of his prefered weapons: refugues
The moron has failed to learn the First Rule of Holes. Next, he will be yammering about the Illuminati.
Rothschild Family Wealth
@ Alois Muller:
Are you reading that Snopes link, Alois?
No need for Illuminati, still enough power without them:
“!Nathan, is claimed to have said:
I care not what puppet is placed upon the throne of England to rule the Empire on which the sun never sets. The man who controls Britain’s money supply controls the British Empire, and I control the British money supply.”
“By my analysis, the Rothschilds are best thought of not as an evil shadow conspiracy, but as a great success story of rags to riches, Jewish slum to financing the defeat of Napoleon. The price of gold is fixed twice a day by five members of the London Bullion Association: Barclays Capital, Deutsche Bank, Scotiabank, HSBC, and Societe Generale, and they conduct their twice-daily meeting over the telephone. Today this is mere financial necessity, but until 2004, it was also a century-old tradition as great as the ringing of the bell at the New York Stock Exchange. The five distinguished representatives included a Rothschild, and they met in person in a paneled room at the London office of N M Rothschild & Sons. That ritual is now a thing of the past, as is the power of the world’s greatest financial dynasty.”
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4311
I only miss Blackrock here and there powerful maschine “Aladdin”, George Soros and all his NGO´s (Open Society), Goldman & Sachs etc.
Good to know that all this does not have to do anything with global politics. Far enough for yammering!
For the last quarter of 2015 the economic growth rate was 1.6%, the lowest rate since 2011. If we are headed towards another recession we can expect Trump to be looking for scapegoats (as despots always do) when he can’t deliver on his economic promises. I feel afraid for American Muslims. We have to support them as much as we can.
I meant to say last quarter of 2016.
I see Glenn’s piece today brought at the usual cadre of bigoted creeps and know-nothings.
Nobody has a lower opinion of organized religion than me, but the idea of banning refugees or asylum seekers from America because of where they are from or their nominal religious faith is about as un-American an act I can think of for a nation of immigrants. Just the hypocrisy alone, much less the stench of American “cultural superiority” (and I use the word “culture” in its loosest sense when it comes to the land of my birth) is sickening in themselves, much less that it is likely in violation of both statute and possibly the US Constitution.
Equally important at present–I am hoping Glenn is feeling better and that his recent health issue is running its course.
Hang in there buddy and take of yourself. We’re going to need your voice and fighting spirit the next 4 years (and heaven forbid 8).
brought “out” not brought “at” . . . under-caffeinated or over-caffeinated not sure which yet.
Presume much?
1. How do you know that the religious faith of any particular Muslim is merely “nominal”?
2. As Muslim extremists harbor calaphatic aspirations as an essential element of their faith-based belief system, and align themselves with transnational organizations that advocate the use of terror against the US and its allies, how does any particular nation defend against potential threats of domestic violence without vetting prospective immigrants? Are you actually suggesting that it is unreasonable to apply a heightened level of attention to migrants arriving from countries that are engaged in armed conflict with America, its allies, and/or its proxies? Should US immigration officials assume that Canadian immigrants have the same potential to be violently hostile to American foreign policy as Muslims arriving from countries that have been devastated by those policies?
3. Of Muslims polled in a PEW survey that canvassed thirty nine Muslim countries, an average of twenty-eight percent of the respondents said that it was okay to use suicide bombing in defense of their faith (soe of the higher percentages included: 40% in the Palestinian territories, 39% in Afghanistan, 29% in Egypt and 26% in Bangladesh). Is it reasonable to exercise a greater level of discretion when consider the potential immigration from those countries that reported the highest percentages to the aforementioned question?
4. in countries where a hostile civilian infrastructure (e.g. Syria) makes it impossible to thoroughly vet claims made on immigration applications, is reason to conduct personal interviews of these potential candidates for admission into the United States?
Only thing I presume it the predictability of a moron like you misreading my comment. So I won’t respond other than to say 99.9% of your idiotic drivel isn’t worth responding to.
I spoke directly to the central point of your comment – which was a gross distortion of Trump’s express intent. In regard to your insults… They are nothing more then the same old trite expressions of an overly inflated, unbalanced ego (ala Mona). So before you get your panties in a twist, I do not give a fuck about impugning your online persona and I am totally impervious to the grandiose legal threats that you like to level at those you can’t bully into submission. So have at it you pretentious, hypocritical schmuck. Take your best shot. It will relive you from actually having to address the blatant inconsistencies and distortions of your own position. I am sure that Mona and her sock puppets can be counted on to shore up your faulty logic ONCE AGAIN (This is exactly the same tone that you employed when you came to the defense of the Intercept’s resident racist and plagiarizer, Juan Thompson – How did that work out for you Mr. Know-it-all?)
OBTW, it was just a few months ago that you said that you agreed with over ninety percent of my posts. Were you LYING then or now?
“to prioritize Christian refugees over all others is just profane:”
Are not the Christians in Muslim dominated countries the most persecuted?
Define “most persecuted” and then provide a list of Muslim dominated countries who are persecuting their small Christian minorities (per capita instances of crimes against Christians on basis of their religion or unequal legal treatment by the state might serve as a good proxy for “persecution”).
We’ll wait. Thanks in advance.
“Are not the Christians in Muslim dominated countries the most persecuted?”
No. Christians lived side by side with Muslims in places like Syria, Libya, Iraq.
It was not until the neocons decided to kill Muslims with impunity that attacks on Christians began in earnest.
Remember the Muslim family with nine children who went to the airport in London to board a flight to Los Angeles because they wanted to go to Disneyland? At the gate, they were told that they were on the secret no-fly list (which Obama doubled in size during his first year in office), and they were escorted out of the airport, after being made to return their duty-free items. They had spent $13,000 on airfare, and were not given a refund.
Trump’s Muslim ban is heinous, but wouldn’t it be better to know you’re banned from a country _before_ you blow all that money on plane tickets?
My point was just that Trump is not such an anomaly as he is made out to be. George W. Bush deported over one million people, Obama deported over two million, and Trump says he wants to deport three million. The system keeps marching forward.
Obama also bombed more countries than any president since Roosevelt, and all of those countries were predominantly Muslim. Greenwald is right, of course, that Trump’s open presidential endorsement of Islamophobia is a particularly repellent advancement of this bipartisan capitalist machinery of racism and war, but in some situations, for certain individuals, I can see how Trump’s naked racism, as opposed to Obama’s hypocrisy, could offer a bit of much-needed clarity regarding places to go and places to avoid when planning, say, a family vacation.
Trump should have done it the European way. Paying partner countries to keep the refugees there.
From the article:
“Trump’s pledge last night to a Christian broadcasting network to prioritize Christian refugees over all others is just profane: the very idea of determining who merits refuge on the basis of religious belief is bigotry in its purest sense.”
American law:
Under United States law, a refugee is someone who:
Is located outside of the United States;
Is of special humanitarian concern to the United States;
Demonstrates that they were persecuted or fear persecution due to race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group;
Is not firmly resettled in another country
Is admissible to the United States.
Does Glenn not understand that Christians are persecuted by Muslims? Does Glenn not understand basic refugee law? Do we only allow middle class refugees fleeing wars and not the wretched poor (see Ruwanda)? Can we take in “refugees” from every country on the planet with an ongoing war? Do Muslims assimilate into western cultures? Does Glenn have common sense?
Christians were doing fine in the Middle East and had been for centuries until you dumbasses destabilized it with your multiple wars spanning back to Papa Bush’s war in 91. The fact that there were even Christians to persecute and churches to destroy when your ISIS came to town a couple of years ago is itself testament to how long these Christian communities existed unmolested. The shit show didn’t start until you counterfeit Christians waged your Crusade and now want to blame the victims for your crimes..
From what I’ve seen, many assimilate better than Texans in New York. ;^(
Muslims are certainly well-assimilated in all the communities I’ve shared with them.
It probably helps that those have been communities that have accepted and welcomed them rather than demonizing them and treating them with suspicion and hostility.
Also: where does “assimilation” end? Until we all talk, walk, dress, eat and drink the same way?
Definitely not where I live. Or anywhere I’d want to live.
“many” … nice qualification
Glenn well understands that that happens in some Muslim-majority countries. So does this Copt Egyptian-American. Here’s his position on Trump’s Christian preference:
“some” … nice qualification
Bottom line: Trump is following standard U.S. refugee law with regard to Syrian Christians. Glenn isn’t following standard U.S. refugee law with regard to Muslims. Trump isn’t a bigot. Glenn is disappointingly off-base here.
Trump is violating the Constitution. The Deputy Legal Director of the ACLU (an organization for which Greenwald, with his lawyer hat on, has been a consultant):
The first clause in the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights.
You could miss most of your high school civics classes and still be taught about this.
How is Trump following “standard US Refugee law” if you’re exercising a preference among existing refugees based on religion? And what does assimilation have to do with the exercise of this law. I personally prefer assimilation. I find “culture and tradition” to be total repressive bullshit myself. But I’m really glad I didn’t have to “assimilate” in Texas.
Please, people. Take a deep breath and exercise your brain. First, regarding the Constitution, here is the preamble and the 1st Amendment:
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
The United States Constitution applies to WE THE PEOPLE – the 320 million AMERICAN CITIZENS. The other 6.7 billion people in the world have ZERO rights under the First Amendment or any other amendment. And, I have my lawyer hat on and I’m actually a practicing lawyer.
And, the very basis and essence of classifying someone a refugee is if they are a member of a persecuted group like Christians quite obviously are in present day Syria and Iraq. Think, please. As for the atheist, please fly to Europe and stroll around Paris spouting your flippant nonsense. I’m sure Parisians will agree with you 100%. Not.
Incorrect. It applies to ANYBODY, whether citizen or not, under the jurisdiction of the US Govt.
If you constitutionalists only understood your constitution. Check out this video by Glenn Greenwald for a better understanding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikCUHh3Ge_k
It’s the greatest video on the Internet :)
Well, there’s Glenn Greenwald, journalist with a law degree (who I tremendously respect, BTW) and then there is this guy, a practicing constitutional lawyer.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/18/constitution-doesnt-mandate-birthright-citizenship/amp/?client=safari
The key part being:
“That was the original meaning of the jurisdiction language in the Fourteenth Amendment. A person who is “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States is a person who is “not subject to any foreign power”—that is, a person who was entirely native to the United States, not the citizen or subject of any foreign government.”
Tell me again how Muslim citizens of Syria or Iraq or any other country not the U.S.A. are under the jurisdiction of the U.S.
First: I’m not arguing that Syrian refugees have any constitutional rights. I don’t believe Glenn is arguing that either. He is just pointing out that despite the spirit of the non-discriminatory nature of the US constitution, the Trump administration is making a ruling that is discriminatory based on religion. I don’t believe Glenn ever said that this is unconstitutional.
Second: In the Breitbart article, you’re defining what it means to be a US National. But the constitution applies to all people under the jurisdiction of the US Govt. whether or not they are subject to a foreign power or not.
If you watch Glenn’s video from 18:23secs, you’ll understand what I mean. Here’s the link:
https://youtu.be/ikCUHh3Ge_k?t=18m23s. This is not Glenn’s opinion. It is the unanimous opinion of the US Supreme Court as Glenn explains in this section of the video.
Mona cited this Greenwald quote from his ACLU days, which is what I was commenting on:
“In effect, Trump has barred Muslims from entering the United States, while favoring the entry of Christians.
One of the tenets upon which our country was founded is that religion is our own business and not the government’s. We have freedom of belief. We do not have religious litmus tests for participation in society. Trump’s order is anathema to those founding principles. It violates the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause, which prohibits the government from preferring or disfavoring any religion. Trump’s anti-Muslim policy also violates the Equal Protection Clause, the part of the Fourteenth Amendment that guarantees that everyone is entitled to equal protection under the law.
Trump’s orders are immoral as well as unconstitutional.”
Greenwald is all over the place here and he knows it, I’m sure. In that section you cite of the video, Glenn is talking about the application of the EP clause to illegal aliens on U.S. soil. My point for citing the Breitbart article was to make the exact point. I’m glad we all agree now that Trump is not proposing an unconstitutional action regarding the temporary ban. As far as allowing persecuted Christians in, please, please, I beg you to bone up on our laws that apply to allowing in persecuted classes of foreign citizens, which classes would include those of a particular religion.
I agree with you that Trumps order is legal. Glenn is saying that he doesn’t like it and he finds it to be “shameful.” That’s only his opinion. I don’t think he’s all over the place. But Glenn does have a tendency to favor any group that he feels is marginalized. But that’s what makes him Glenn Greenwald. And Glenn most definitely is not saying that Christians should not be favored. He’s just saying that if they’re a refugee, that should be the only criteria. It’s only his opinion.
Just so you know who you’re arguing with, I’m an immigrant to Canada, who was brought up Muslim.
Apparently I was mistaken Dave. Trumps order is partially legal. He can’t ban people who’re already here and traveled outside, which his ban apparently did.
Thank you Mr. Greenwald. This needed to be said.
Just sign it to make the Us and the world better!
“Issue an International Arrest Warrant for George Soros
Created by A.B. on January 21, 2017″
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/issue-international-arrest-warrant-george-soros
@ Moderators:
Why is this kind of crapola allowed to stand at TI?
At some point these Trumpers are reaching crapflooding levels. Have you seen this one before? That “Tony” is in several threads, and literally posts nothing but vapid insults.
At some point it would be worth reporting them if the volume does get beyond a tolerable limit of crap.
“Have you seen this one before?”
Can’t say I have. Expect more of them, with a subject matter like this…
You -Mona- are multiplying the crap by denouncing every clown-hole with your handles.
Once is enough, girl.
You’re an antisemite who’s pissed at me for stating that truth. See this sub-thread, first comment (from Gator) highlighted in gray.
Ever since I called you out, months before that thread, you’ve been harassing me constantly, including claiming I post under multiple accounts. A falsehood that Glenn Greenwald himself told you to stop spewing.
If you do not stop, I will report you as violating what Glenn specifically told you not to do.
“You’re an antisemite who’s pissed at me for stating that truth.”
Character assassination is your biggest weapon. I’m pissed at you for your stupidity and your complaints of crapflooding while pulling the chain.
Report yourself, you deluded fool. Anyone can see the posts you make to yourself. You’ve done it for going on 10 years. just stfu and post as one.
The origin of “crapola” is Italien, wright?
George Soros is a menace to the free world and stands in the way of making America great again. He is guilty of the following crimes:
1) Financially supports open sedition in major American cities resulting in millions of dollars of property damage as well as loss of life.
2) Attempts to manipulate democratic elections by donating millions of dollars to his preferred candidates.
3) Seeks to curtail American sovereignty. In his own words: “The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States … Changing [the] attitude and policies of the United States remains my top priority.”
4) Is a currency manipulator. Soros initiated a British financial crisis by dumping 10 billion sterling, forcing the devaluation of the currency and gaining a billion-dollar profit.
5) Is an obsession of Alois Muller.
Whoever the f*ck the latter may be.
5) Is an obsession of Alois Muller.
So-called “moderate” Muslims better take this as a wake-up call to finally reform their religion because this is just the beginning.
The Greenwalds of the world have done a great disservice to innocent Muslims by blaming Islamic terrorism on everything under the sun (Israel/Zionism, Western imperialism, etc.) except the Islamic scripture that is the main motivating factor behind it.
People are waking up to the fact Muslims have been invading, occupying, and colonizing non-Muslim lands for over a thousand years, since the time of their mass-murdering pedophile prophet. What we see from ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram and literally HUNDREDS of other Islamist/jihadist group is simply a continuation of this centuries long aggression.
Innocent Muslims don’t deserve to be discriminated again. But Muslims who refuse to acknowledge their Quran is motivating terrorism, and continue to promote Islam in its traditional forms, are not innocent.
Pretty rich coming from the enslavers and colonizers of the bloodiest centuries(19th, 20th) the world has seen. The only ones to ever use nukes on people and who killed off a whole race of indigenous people just to take their land…Muslims don’t even come to the blood on the hands of self righteous Westerners, how many million did you guys kill in the world wars again? How many millions were massacred in the Western Hemisphere since Columbus ventured that way?? How many Africans were killed and enslaved??
The bloodiest conflicts of the 19th and 20th century were not motivated by religious beliefs. The nukes were used on two vitally important military cities of Imperial Japan after they had raped and pillaged their way across Asia and the Pacific, slaughtering millions of innocents (far more than the number killed by the Allies). Their “innocent civilians” were also actively engaging in mass military training to fight to the death the impending invading Americans.
As the Axis had sown the wind, they reaped the whirlwind. Similar to what Muslims are experiencing today after centuries of Islamic supremacist rule of other cultures (the Ottoman Empire being the last real incarnate of this caliphate-centric mindset ) and having said aggression leak into the 21st century through non-state groups like IS or AQ.
Literally none of the crimes and atrocities you cite were committed in the name of religious beliefs. Literally all of the crimes and atrocities you cite have been committed by Muslims over the centuries (including many in the present day), many specifically because of their religious beliefs.
Muslims not only come close to the blood on the hands of westerners, they far exceed it. They have massacred and ethnically cleansed millions. Palestine is only majority Muslim Arab today because of this conquest and ethnic cleansing, for example. The Muslim conquest of Indian alone killed upwards of 50 million innocent people. Slavery was just as common and violent in Islamic society as it was in the west.
“Muslims not only come close to the blood on the hands of westerners, they far exceed it. ”
No. Jews have the bloodiest hands when measured by the ratio of Jews to Muslims.
Jews butcher Muslims at an astonishing rate not matched by the Nazis or even the Romans.
Gaza 2014 saw 250-300 Palestinians killed for every Israeli. The majority of dead were civilians; women and children.
6 million Jews in Israel vs 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide; 1:266.
(see Gaza 2014 for comparison)
6 million Jews vs hundreds of millions of hostile Muslims dedicated to their destruction and still the Jews are able to survive and thrive from among the savages. Amazing. Thanks for the reminder!
By the way, Muslims have killed more children in a few months in Syria and Iraq than Israel has in its entire existence. Zionists couldn’t kill as many innocent Muslim children as other Muslims do if they even wanted to.
“6 million Jews vs hundreds of millions of hostile Muslims dedicated to their destruction and still the Jews are able to survive and thrive from among the savages. Amazing. Thanks for the reminder!”
Israel is only able to survive by using nipple clamps on the American teet.
We just gave them another $36 billion on top of $250 billion … thanks for the reminder … with friends like Israeli Jews – who needs enemies, besides the Jews themselves? (McCain and Graham can send $200 million to Israel to defend itself after it attacks every neighboring country)
If you send money to Palestine you are sent to jail.
If you send medical supplies to Palestine you are murdered by IDF storm-troopers.
If you send money to Israel you receive a federal tax deduction.
American aid to Israel is a small fraction of their overall GDP. They would be just fine without it. This aid was non-existent in Israel’s most tumultuous times during the Arab instigated wars of the 1940’s through 1970’s. They fought off Islamic violence without American help back then (before they were occupying “Palestinian” land or building settlements on it, by the way; funny how Muslims still found a reason to fight the Jews).
The truth is the precise opposite; terrorism is not caused by anyone’s scriptures, including the Qu’ran.
A recent FBI report affirms the findings of the 2004 Pentagon study by the Defense Science Board. The FBI study:
The Defense Science Board study — commissioned by Donald Rumsfeld in 2004, is entirely available, and includes passages such as:
There’s much more. The DSB did not identify “scriptures” as a cause for Islamic terror. Nor does Greenwald, because no credible data supports the claim.
“The DSB did not identify “scriptures” as a cause for Islamic terror. “
Decatur204: “Because the DSB are PC!”
Yaaaawwnn.
The FBI, too! Politically correct libruls, the whole lot. pffft
Nowhere in your post have you refuted the fact Islamic scripture is motivating these jihadists.
What connection does an American born Muslim have to “military actions” occurring in Muslim nations? You think these people have a duty to fight because they are anti-war?
There is a reason we don’t see terrorists originating from Germany, Vietnam, Japan, Latin America, and all nations who have suffered by U.S. “military action” just as much as Muslim nations, slaughtering civilians across multiple continents to the same degree we see with Muslim terrorists.
“If there is one overarching goal [Islamic militants] share, it is the overthrow of what Islamists call the “apostate” regimes”
Again, there’s your Islamic connection. Of course, the U.S. is damned if they do and damned if they don’t. If they support dictators like Hussein or Assad, they are accused of creating terrorism. If they remove said dictators, they are accused of creating the vacuum that creates terrorists. They can’t win.
Fortunately, like I say, people are finally starting to acknowledge the Islamic element behind these terrorist groups and are more aware of the centuries long historical context.
I think you mean to say “alternate fact”, instead of “fact”
Jihad simply means striving, which can be for something good or for something bad. It’s the objective that makes jihad good or bad.
Nevertheless, the doctrine of Jihad is very much misunderstood.
“The Spiritual Significance of Jihad”, by Seyyed Hossein Nasr:
Excerpt:
…
At https://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/vol-9-no-1/spiritual-significance-jihad-seyyed-hossein-nasr/spiritual-significance-jihad
And the swastika was long known as a symbol of good fortune and positivity.
Sorry Sufi, jihad/jihadist/jihadism will forever after be synonymous with heinous violence and atrocities. So will Islam itself the way things are going.
So, you don’t see the reality as it is?
You see Islam as one monolithic religion?
As for “Jihad”, yes, it will remain “synonymous with heinous violence and atrocities” with these kinds of people:
1. Those who identify themselves as Muslims and carry out heinous violence and atrocities in the name of Jihad.
2. Those who are not mature enough to see that many Muslims see Jihad with spiritual significance, like Prof. Seyyed Hossein Nasr.
The reality is there are many Muslims, who proudly call themselves jihadists, and claim they are following their religious scriptures, who are carrying out mass-murderous atrocities on an almost daily basis.
True, they aren’t the majority of Muslims, but they are certainly the loudest. Actions always speak louder than words.
True.
True, but it is their actions, not the actions of the overwhelming majority of Muslims. Most of their victims are other Muslims, by the way.
Destructive actions are often the loudest and make the news.
Constructive actions are not often the loudest, and certainly do not make the news.
When Muslims carry out good and noble actions — as they do throughout the world every single day — you won’t hear about them on any networks.
Constructing a bridge takes time and effort.
Blowing it up is more dramatic, louder and news worthy.
“There is a reason we don’t see terrorists originating from Germany, Vietnam, Japan, Latin America, and all nations who have suffered by U.S. “military action” just as much as Muslim nations, ”
Funny how when we stop bombing them they don’t attack us …
what’s Israel done today? steal more land, shot a few snakes …
People from those countries weren’t carrying out global terrorist attacks against civilians even when you were bombing them. Religious beliefs are key motivator.
“Religious beliefs are key motivator.”
Invasion of land is an even bigger motivator.
What motivates someone to harm innocent people cannot be simplified by blaming the Quran. I have studied the Quran thoroughly for decades and I find nothing in it that calls for harming the innocent.
Even many non-Muslims have realized that the Quran does NOT condone harming the innocent. I will link to a few articles by Juan Cole in this sub-thread just to show you one single non-Muslim who disagrees with your assertion vis-a-vis the Quran.
“Top Ten Ways Islamic Law forbids Terrorism”, at http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html
““The Meaning of Peace in the Quran” – Juan Cole @ PBS”, at http://www.juancole.com/2016/10/meaning-peace-quran.html
====
Moreover, the Quran has been translated in English by many. And their translations as well as Quran’s own text are readily available.
So it is not difficult to refute your claim that the Quran is the culprit.
I have had numerous discussions with those who came out swinging, hurling Quranic verses to assert that the Quran is the culprit, only to show them how they take the verses completely out of their historical and textual contexts.
The real culprit is the human self. When it reflects the lower, it causes problems. And this is regardless of a person’s outer religious or non-religious path.
The problem is semantics and subjectivity. You say the Qur’an doesn’t allow violence towards “innocents”, which is technically correct. The issue is what the Qur’an (or Hadith) defines as “innocent”.
Violence is permitted in “defense” of Islam and/or Muslims, or towards those deemed to have “transgressed” against Islam and/or Muslims. Again, the issue is what Islam/Muslims define as defense and transgression. It all goes back to Mohammad’s early interactions with Jews and pagans in Arabia when Islam was just getting started.
The Islamic narrative is that Mohammad and his early followers were justified in attacking, massacring, and ethnically cleansing Mecca and Medina from these non-Muslims because it was in self-defense. My contention (along with many others) is that Muslims were the aggressors, forcing their beliefs on long-standing communities who had been there for centuries prior. Therefore, their violence was actually not defensive, it was offensive in nature.
If the entire basis for defining “defense” of your religion is warped from the start, it’s not hard to see how these verses are being used to justify illegitimate violence today.
The point is this:
You see Islam in one way, and I, and many others (Muslims and non-Muslims), see it in another way.
What you talk about is your Islam, that is, your understanding of what Islam is.
And what I present is my understanding of what Islam is.
Similarly, what others present is their understanding of what Islam is.
Islam does not have a church hierarchy that “officially” speaks for Islam.
It is a mosaic of many, many cultures and religious interpretations and practices, all mixed up.
The way I define islam is that it is an inner state in which the individual/limited consciousness connects with the supreme consciousness, to varying degrees.
And it is regardless of a person’s religious or non-religious path. So there are many Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, and member of other outer religious faiths, as well as those who don’t adhere to a religious path, whose individual consciousness is connected with the supreme consciousness, obviously to varying degrees.
There is a whole spiritual philosophy behind it.
But I recognize that others see Islam differently. Many have culturalized Islam and refer Islam to a specific cultural phenomenon.
Now, one can argue that perhaps it is the Quran that speaks for Islam.
But then the Quran has to be interpreted and applied by humans, who look at the Quran in different ways and read it in many different ways.
You may see something in the Quran based on your own reading of it, and I will see something else based on mine.
So, Muslims need to confess, or else? What will do it for ya? Perhaps a public confession, where they can swear an oath of fealty to your idea of what constitutes proper comportment? I like how you blame “the Greenwalds of the world” for their lack of unprincipled authoritarianism and witless schoolyard reduction.
This author is talking nonsense. He has neither lived in Muslim majority country nor understands what he is trying to protect. Islam is a cult that thrives in complete subjugation or elimination of minorities and weak. It reduces women into child bearing engines with no life or rights. Muhammad was a pedophile who used to rape 13 year old girl to satisfy his lust. I am from Kashmir a part of India where minorities were systematically eliminated. Killed, raped and targeted. it is the same with minorities in every Muslim dominated country. Don’t fall for their crocodile tears. This is a great first step by Trump that has to be supported by every American. If Muslims want to be welcomed then they need to change radically. Their religion which is a cult needs to go through radical transformation. I don’t believe that will happen. At present we need to keep as many of them as possible outside of this country. If you want to know what is Islam please go to Saudi Arabia and try to find a church or a temple there. You will get the answer. Ohhh by the way they follow pure Islam. This author should be sent there and he will change his views.
“US President Donald Trump has signed an executive order, which temporarily bans entry of refugees into the US territory.”
—Temporarily—!
https://southfront.org/president-trump-signs-executive-order-temporarily-halting-all-refugees/
Don’t burn your feathers while trying to burn feathers on a Duck decoy .
There’s a huge difference between pro-intervention propagandistic lick and fearless investigative journalism.
May be you should also read your colleague’s articles on the proxy war in Syria 2016.
” proxy war in Syria 2016.”: Yinon Plan?
“he is distinctly and consummately American”.
Not true. Trump is a product of Tea party extremist and fundamentalis conservatism which even Republicans find hard to stomach, let alone the majority of Americans.
There is a growing gap between conservatives and liberals which progressives tend to ignore, probably for the purpose of self-promotion, at the cost of an accurate analysis of reality, which hence results in reality rejecting both their resolutions and representatives.
To say Trump is an American expression is like saying ISIS is Muslim. Both are simply a demagogues fabrications.
As usual, your analysis is deeply flawed. Just wholly wrong:
1. Donald Trump is the result of Democrats being Republican Lite — neoliberal technocrats, cavorting with wealthy donors and the 1%. At a time of intense populist fervor, the Democrats insist on sandbagging a hugely popular populist on the left (who very likely would have won), instead nominating deeply despised Wall St. whore and elitist.
2. Trump’s ban on Muslims is literally as American as the proverbial apple pie. See, e.g., the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 or the Emergency Quota Act of 1921. A Twitter account has been posting an endless series of names and pictures of Jewish children, women and men, turned away from a U.S. harbor in 1939 to then be murdered by Nazis.
“sandbagging a hugely popular populist “
– Sanders is not a Democrat, and he lost the primaries by 3,708,294 votes (16,914,722 to 13,206,428); the “sandbagging” part is about as accurate as Trump’s claim to voter fraud.
“Wall St. Whore “
– your adaptation of extreme language is understandable, considering you enabled Trump, but wholly inadequate and demagogues. If anyone is a whore in this story, it is Wall Street, which responded to Trump positively and immediately, to the extent that makes the claim to a Democrat connection dubious at best. (there is also the many Wall Street pundits in his cabinet which make the exclusive Democrat affiliation a fallacy of omission).
“Trump’s ban on Muslims is literally as American …“
– It is typical of the frame of mind you represent to consider sporadic and extremist events as representative.
“Donald Trump is the result of Democrats being Republican Lite”
– Not true. It is more a result of progressives THINKING that (in lines, mind you, with an extremist fundamentalism from the far-right), and directly or indirectly causing Trump.
Racism is the red thread running through American history, to this day. Nothing ‘sporadic’ or ‘extremist’ about a series of events.
Racism is. Action of the type mentioned, and Trump’s, are rare, and are markers of bygone times, or as the case is here, conservative in nature.
Isn’t the goal of the neocons to do just that? The Reichstag fire preceded the purge in Germany; 911 was our Reichstag.
All of the carnage of the past 15 years was predicated on 911; without the attacks of 911 America would not care any more or less about Muslims.
A shadow government orchestrated the Muslim attacks on 911. It was Dick Cheney and crew that killed 345 firefighters, not Muslim patsies in airplanes.
Israel has roads for ‘Jews Only'; Israel owns American politics and the Orange buffoon will jump at any money-lure offered by the Israel-first! billionaires, Adelson, Fox, Saban, Soros, etc.
The Donald is the inevitable result of failure to investigate 911 independently; the NIST is part of the government that was hijacked.
@nuf said:
US foreign policies that pissed off many Muslims WELL predate 9/11.
Anyone remember Ronnie Raygun’s support for the Taleban?
THESE GENTLEMEN ARE THE MORAL EQUIVALENT OF AMERICA’S FOUNDING FATHERS”
no, just culmination of shit. pig skinned idiots.
According to the advice of CIA Trump tries to keep out the soldiers of this old man:
“As it’s been noted by Politico, George Soros and other wealthy liberals who spent tens of millions of dollars trying to elect Hillary Clinton have held a three-day closed door meeting in Washington to retool the big-money left to fight back against Donald Trump. The conference, which kicked-off at Washington’s pricey Mandarin Oriental hotel, was sponsored by the influential Democracy Alliance donor club, and allegedly included appearances by leaders of most leading unions and liberal groups.”
Soros will never give up!
If Soros is doing that, good! After spending money to nominate a Wall St. whore and warmonger like Hilary Clitnon, and sandbagigng Bernie Sanders who very likely would have beaten Trump, it’s the least Soros could do.
Taking about the recent petition to the White House there is hope!
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/issue-international-arrest-warrant-george-soros
Glenn, you are one of a small group who is pointing out the longstanding policy and the precedent for this latest Trump act. Obama, Bush, Clinton all bombed the hell out of these countries and now Trump bans them from seeking asylum in this nation. Also, bans are not unprecedented. Jimmy Carter, one of our most liberal presidents ever, imposed a temporary ban on Iranians.
*** A BRIEF OPEN LETTER TO THE MUSLIMS ***
In this day and age, it has become quite urgent for the Muslims, especially the Western Muslims, to act with patience perseverance, as well as to remain peaceful.
Their focus must be self-purification and an effort to reflect the higher self, whose qualities include selflessness, generosity, love, peace, justice, humility, not doing unto others what one doesn’t want done unto one, turning the other cheek, serving others with no expectations, forgiveness, lack of lust for power and control, etc., etc.
Charity begins at home. And one’s heart is one’s ‘home’.
So we need to focus on that in these difficult circumstances.
Return badness with goodness.
Return injustice with justice.
Return hatred with love and peace and forgiveness.
Return arrogance and self-pride with humility and generosity.
All efforts and activism must be encompassed within these qualities of the higher self.
Etc. Etc.
Superlike!
Just to clarify, the “higher self” is not the area mullah who begins crowing at dawn from the local minaret.
1. Glad you like Sufi’s post.
2. Learn the difference between a mullah and a muezzin.
3. The higher self is not where the impulse to refer to other humans as , e.g., “Pakis” arises.
Although I’d be surprised that Trump is actually religious, a lot of his most influential aides and supporters are. Evangelicals have long believed that Jesus will return during a war in the “Holy Land”, namely, modern Palestine. The Jews and Muslims are supposed to duke it out and destroy each other, while Jesus swoops in and picks up the spoils for himself and the other Exceptionals. A narcissistic belief system for a narcissistic nation led by a narcissistic bully. USA! USA!
“It is not difficult for any decent human being to immediately apprehend why and how Donald Trump’s ‘ban’on immigrants from seven Muslim countries is inhumane, bigoted, and shameful.” -gg
Agreed, but my point of contention after reading the order (Protecting the Nation from Terrorist Attacks by Foreign Nationals / *noted below) in question, is that currently the said ‘banishment’ has yet to be sanctioned.
This in turn would make this statement, conjecture, with w/ the potential of banishment if the individuals/countries don’t abide by the prerequisitive stipulations.
Please refute at your leasure..
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/25/trumps-muslim-immigration-executive-order-if-we-bombed-you-we-ban-you/?comments=1#comments
Just FYI: To “ban” and to “banish” have different meanings in modern English, although they share some etymological relationships.
Salz`
Yea, smarty britches…. Well, I was going for the etymologicalisticology approach (.. I think)!!
A Foiled Again Almost Production
That sentence containing prerequisitive stipulations is an example of how educated, politically infantile Americans confuse diarrhea with English.
This web page may not be the most pretentious I’ve ever seen but it ranks.
This coming from the pompous hypocrite who used a run-on sentence to pontificate their point?
You’re dismissed, peasant (informal)..
Pontificate my point?
Have you decided you prefer to be called Spicoli instead of suave because you embarrassed yourself? Are you capable of embarrassing yourself?
When I read rationale like this, I find it difficult to not to summarily dismiss the entire article ludicrous on its face. Really Glenn, you are not talking to children!
1. The claim that something hasn’t happened does not mean that it can not happen in the future.
2. The claim that “Foreigners from those seven nations have killed zero Americans in terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1975 and the end of 2015″ does not speak to the fact that other countries may have suffered a different fate.
3. The fact that Islamic terror organizations have been defined as semi-amorphous and supranational in nature – due to their transnational caliphatic aspirations – suggests that national identity alone is not a good indicator of an individual’s potential for terrorist actions.
4. Much of the supranational terrorism associated with Islamic extremism over the last forty years has been secretly funded and conducted by Muslim nations who are purportedly hostile US interests in the Muslim world. Yet, the supranational nature of terrorist organizations itself makes it exceedingly difficult to pinpoint the source of their funding. Any particular Islamic terror organization may be comprised of fighters from numerous nations. As you subscribe to the belief that it was Osama bin Laden who masterminded the attacks of 9/11, then you must also be convinced that al Qaeda was responsible. As al Qaeda and its affiliates have a significant presence in numerous Muslim countries – including most of those to which you refer – it only stands to reason that their potential influence on prospective candidates for immigration must be weighed. As al Qaeda is only one of several supranational, Islamic terrorist organizations who are waging a war for the hearts and minds of Muslims in the countries of which you speak, is it not reasonable to weigh the potential of their influence as well? Wikipedia reports that Europe has suffered seven major terrorist attacks since 2004 which have been attributed to al Qaeda or the Islamic State which resulted in approximately 600 deaths and 4000 injuries.
5. I have heard you refer to the term “blowback” from the Muslim world on dozens of occasions in describing the reason for the attacks of 911 specifically, and the predictable consequence of US foreign policy (Bush Doctrine) in the Muslim World in general. Yet, when the slightest action is taken to vet victims of America’s war on terror, the whole “blowback” argument is conveniently discarded.
6. Although Iran cannot be directly tied to the Actions of al Qaeda or IS, they have been cited for covertly providing logistical and material support to the Houthi insurgency in Yemen. Now before you debate the merits of that claim, it should be stated that it is exactly the same intelligence sources who credited Osama bin Laden with the attacks on the World Trade Center who are now pointing the finger at Iran.
This is the problem with uncritically accepting and parroting the claims of US intelligence agencies – if you are in for a penny, then you are in for a pound. Recent revelations clearly indicate that US Intelligence agencies knowingly lied when they solely attributed the attacks of 9/11 to the Afghan based “terror” group led by Osama bin Laden – as if he was no longer a witting agent of US and Saudi intelligence. So, too, the 911 Commission compounded that lie with the specific intention of legitimizing the aims of the Project for a New American Century. And although this article now obliquely makes reference to Saudi sponsored terror against Americans, it utterly fails (once again) to challenge the specious 9/11 intelligence-sourced narrative upon which the global war on terror was constructed.
Well, it’s true he’s not talking to genteel racist Trumpers like you. No reasonable and intelligent person is going to find your “critique” other than loaded with logical fallacies and stupidity.
You are known here. Your propensity for the inane is long familiar.
When ever Glenn Greenwald’s number one fan and sock- puppet-master chooses to solely rely on Ad hominem in the attempt to marginalize legitimate criticism, I know that that particular criticism is worthy of consideration.
Thanks for the compliment Aporia
As with so many ignoramuses, you fail to understand that ad hominem is sometimes valid, and it absolutely is in your case because your record establishes that you have zero credibility.
You are long proven to be a fact-challenged, racist Trumper. Dealing with specifics of your constant bilge is a waste of time; it is useful to simply alert readers to your low credibility and move on.
The rabid intensity of your continued attention only speaks to the degree to which you feel threatened by my point of view.
Thanks again for the compliments
Apologies! A small correction to your statement is needed. It should read:
“No half-reasonable or half-intelligent person is going to find your “rant” other than loaded with logical fallacies and stupidity.”
Sad to see this oxymoronic term being normalized in this era now.
Sigh!
Don’t feel bad; Christians have been terrorizing innocents long before Islam was born. Religions rarely stay fresh more than a couple hundred years, then they harden into cults. None of the current religions truly satisfy the inquiring spirit.
De rerum natura.
~50BC was a good, but overlooked year.
The term “Islamic terror” is part of the public discourse and used by conservative and progressives alike. Some progressives have labored to more narrowly define “Islamic terrorism” as acts of terror conducted by “Islamic extremists”. Yet, in this context, the terms “Islamic extremist” and “Islamic terrorist” are interchangeable. If one chooses to describe Islamism as a “political ideology that strives to derive legitimacy from Islam” however, then the term “Islamist extremist” is not oxymoronic in nature; and, by extension, neither is “Islamic terror” or “Islamic terror”.
Noam Chomsky & Glenn Greenwald – Islamic Terrorism and the Hatred Against Us
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh2a4PYylzQ
That does not make it a correct term.
The word, “Islamic”, means “According to the teachings of Islam”, and we don’t consider it Islamic.
The equivalent term in Judaism would be Judaic.
From “How not to talk about Muslims after a Fringe Terrorist Group attacks”, at http://www.juancole.com/2016/03/how-not-to-talk-about-muslims-after-a-fringe-terrorist-group-attacks.html
Yes, I sympathize with your point of view; Language matters. In using incorrect terms, we are falling into the trap of blurring critical distinctions. I have struggled with this on many occasion in debates that range form abortion to zero-sum Congressional debates. When competing ideologies are involved, each side attempts to control the nature and range of the debate, in part, by controlling the terms that are used (e.g. fetus vs unborn baby). When the hypocrisy of your can be clearly addressed without having to make finer distinctions, then I opt for employing the language in play.
Sorry Sufi Muslim,
“When the hypocrisy of your can be clearly addressed without having to make finer distinctions, then I opt for employing the language in play.”
should have read:
“When the hypocrisy of your OPPOSITION can be clearly addressed without having to make finer distinctions, then I opt for employing the language in play.”
I hate seeing the term “Jewish lobby” (used elsewhere in this thread), but “Islamic terror” is an even more unfortunate phrase.
Yes, it is complicated/complex – very complicated/complex and for general public consumption needs to be simplified and portrayed in a narrative that suits the given agenda. If you assume the logic of the travel ban is sound (and I say if – here), then why those funding the efforts are exempt from the restrictions is illogical.
The reality of supra-nationalism within Islam is also very relevant, but discussing that logically gets one quickly into the illogical nature of imposed national borders.
I am still interested in hearing where this all is headed? Is it all about “maintaining empire” or is there some elusive goal which all of this chaos will ultimately lead to?
Hi James,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I have written at least a dozen lengthy comments in response to various Intercept articles that speak to the role that the Saudis have been playing in advancing the the aims of neoliberalism within their sphere of influence:
1. Spread of Wahhabi ideology for the purpose of homogenizing the Muslim faith within its immediate sphere of influence
2. Facilitate the transnational militarization of Wahhabi adherents to serve as a proxy force against soviet occupation in Afghanistan initially, and abroad subsequently.
3. Facilitate the transnational migration of radicalized Muslims to serve as proxy change agents as a precursor to the express aims of the Bush Doctrine to engage in regime change and/or pacification of radicalized Muslim cultures (e.g. Afghanistan, Chechnya, Libya, Syria).
In weighing the merits of those who oppose heightened scrutiny of Muslim immigrants who desire to enter the US from countries in which thousands of radicalized foreign Muslims are fighting along side of their indigenous counterparts (let’s take Syria for example), it is necessary to consider the cross fertilization of ideas and ideology that takes place in such circumstance. To this end, one needs to look no further than Afghanistan and/or Chechnya to see how radicalized an otherwise benign Muslim culture can become when faced when exposed to a very aggressive and determined advocate of Salafism.
In regard to those “friendly” Muslim countries whose migration has not been earmarked for heightened vetting (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, UAE), they are all aligned with US policy in the region – thus it is logically consistent not to flag their migrants as potentially dangerous.
None of your poor arguments even come close to justifying the religious bigotry of this ban. You are doing what so many have done since 9/11:
making open bigotry of Muslims ok.
Yet you are at a complete loss to counter a single one of my arguments… telling!
Just because Karl hasn’t carried out a terrorist attack yet doesn’t mean he won’t carry one out in the future. Ban Karl.
Just because Chris wishes to be perceived as a bleeding heart progressive does not mean that he won’t betray himself in the present by attempting to silence those with whom he disagrees. Well done!
The other day I said we probably can’t fully grasp the repercussions of what Trump is about to do. It’s worse than I thought.
at the moment, the intercept is strangely silent on the previous 20+ years of bombing certain muslim countries .. by presidents of both parties
and seeing a temporary ban on immigrants from these countries (until a better vetting process can be established) as simply beyond the pale … because these particular people aren’t part of the terrorist problem (YET) …
this temporary ban is actually a reasonable and PROACTIVE response to an insane foreign policy by his predecessors, and absolutely nothing like the expulsion of jews from nazi germany
but the mad idealists of the intercept only see the shining historical parallels in their fevered, over-stuffed brains
It’s always advisable to read an article before commenting on it, or advisable not to lie about the article while commenting on it if you have read and assumed or hoped that others reading your comment have not read the article. It’s tough enough in this world for one to not look foolish, so it’s always reasonable to not casually and purposely make yourself look foolish by design.
i don’t mind looking foolish to people who don’t matter
and dirty wars was not published on the intercept
Your idiocy is painful to watch. Clips from Dirty Wars have literally been published on The Intercept. This is trivial to find.
Just FYI, that’s a John Anderson account.
Johnny ‘tools in the toolbox’ Anderson?!
Classic!!
Wasn’t he the jabronski who got ‘peeling one off’ in the shrubs of the Pacific Northwest??
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/portland-postal-worker-caught-pooping-neighbor-yard-wrong-camera-guy-video-article-1.113229
there is no need for vulgarity
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TqCoOGYsUG4/TpQK4XXHTtI/AAAAAAAAKRg/oQ-ofDsBMaw/s1600/Alien_023Pyxurz.jpg
You can’t even Google before embarrassing yourself? Hint: One of The Intercept’s founders is Jeremy Scahill, who wrote “Dirty Wars.”
Put policies in place that make us truly energy independent, with very, very high export taxes on all energy supplies leaving this country.
Then get out of the Middle East altogether, with the exception of humanitarian funds for refugee relocation within the Middle Eastern sphere.
There is nothing we need over there.
Don’t burn your feathers while trying to burn feathers on a duck decoy.
There’s a huge difference between pro-intervention propagandistic lick and fearless investigative journalism.
https://theintercept.com/2016/09/21/in-syria-a-new-style-of-war-propaganda-emerges-influenced-by-video-games/
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/01/syrias-white-helmets-risk-everything-to-save-the-victims-of-airstrikes/
“Thus did we witness the spectacle last week of many acting as though Trump’s plans for CIA black sites, torture and rendition were shocking Trumpian aberrations even though many of those denouncing it were the ones who advocated or implemented those policies in the first place or protected those who did from criminal prosecution.”
So he got this list from CIA and did what they wanted him to do. These refugees are Soros soldiers, they shoud kept out just to prevent Soros to destabilise the US.
“…has been describing individual Jews whose ship was refused entry by the Roosevelt administration in 1939 as they were fleeing Nazis, only to end up dying in Auschwitz and other camps.”
May be he knew who one day is going to control the US?
FYI, this site often deletes and bans antisemites, just like you.
Sorry, but I got friends in Israel and there are many in Israel who dont like the “deep state” created by their fellow-men either. They know that they might be destroyed by them as well.
Get this translated to get an other view:
http://www.epochtimes.de/politik/europa/trump-schuetzt-sein-land-prag-begruesst-us-massnahmen-in-fluechtlingspolitik-a2035449.html
“I’ve got friends who’r Negroes.”
One of my suns is half Negro, nice boy!
Many Israelis are racists and fascists. Zionists have a very long history of friendly relations with antisemites. They often understand one another perfectly and have since the early 20th century.
This site bans antisemites, whether racist Zionists are friendly with them or not.
Thanks! As soon as the US have banned this old man I promise to shut up! Why? I like the US!
“As it’s been noted by Politico, George Soros and other wealthy liberals who spent tens of millions of dollars trying to elect Hillary Clinton have held a three-day closed door meeting in Washington to retool the big-money left to fight back against Donald Trump. The conference, which kicked-off at Washington’s pricey Mandarin Oriental hotel, was sponsored by the influential Democracy Alliance donor club, and allegedly included appearances by leaders of most leading unions and liberal groups.”
You are an anti-Semite, an Islamophobe and a moron, as you demonstrate conclusively in a single post.
These refugees are, largely, the result of US policies and actions and of the policies and actions of nations and entities we have long supported.
The attempt to connect Soros to this issue is ridiculous.
And the “Jews control the US” claim is no less disgusting for being old, boring and stupid.
Really? Who do you believe is behind the recent unrests in rhe US!
“7576453
“Has Soros Declared a Full-out War on Trump?
The 86-year-old American of Hungarian origin, George Soros is now occupying 46th position in a pretty exclusive club of the richest people in the world. Back in 1990s, Soros didn’t hesitate to bankrupt the Bank of England. But even this step is hardly the biggest achievement of this man’s life who is often described as an imperialist puppeteer.” Thats what an old man can do!
You’re a nut, Alois. Not worth spending time on.
Why is “Jews control the US”? There has not been a Jewish president, but it is an irrefutable fact that the US is now israel’s lapdog, with the latter being represented by the extremely powerful Jewish lobby in Congress & elsewhere. So if israel wants or demands something directly or through its proxies, it is carried out. Conversely, if the US wants or demands something, israel ignores it & just carries on.
Perhaps israel does not control the US the way you see it, but it sure has a disproportionate leverage on the US.
Perhaps you don’t understand the difference between “Jews” and “Zionists.”
Oh, Doug Salzmann is well aware– and extremely knowledgeable about — the Israel Lobby in the U.S. As well as the crimes of Israel and the absurd billions we give that racist country.
But you see, Israel and Zionists are not the same as “Jews.” Many, many Jews find Israel, and it’s lobbies in Western nations, utterly repugnant.
Antisemitism remains a grotesque bigotry, entirely independent of anti-Zionism (which is contempt for a fascist political ideology). Form long exposure to Doug’s comments I know he knows all this.
“Perhaps you don’t understand the difference between “Jews” and “Zionists.”: interesting! And both blame the Vatican for all the evel in this world.
Sheesh. This one is hopeless folks. Probably best to ignore, now.
I fully agree with you. What I don’t understand, nay find hard to accept, is that, if there are so many Jews who find Israel, and it’s lobbies in Western nations, utterly repugnant, why do they not stand up & let their voice be heard. Why do they not stop those racists, who are plain neofascists, from destroying the Palestinians & Israel.
American Zionists and American Zionist Jews do indeed have a disproportionate influence on US foreign policies vis-a-vis Israel/Palestine.
How does that equate to “Jews control the US”?
I’ll wait…
Their disproportionate influence on US foreign policies vis-a-vis Israel/Palestine does not stop at that single issue. They are ultra conservative, which means they are intent on subjugating, if not destroying, Russia, China, Iran & a host of other countries; world dominance in their (together with the rest of their sick ilk) name of the game.
Anything you don’t understand, Soros must be behind it. Listen, I’d leave geopolitical analysis to people with a brain.
I agree! Soros is only the slave of the 0,0001% we never speak about.
“According to media reports, along with other financiers, Soros has recently founded the “super PAC” (Political Action Committee), known as “Immigrant Voters Win”. The organization has been particularly active in the states with growing Hispanic populations, such as Florida, Nevada and Colorado, where it is fueling hostile sentiments against Republican candidate Donald Trump. The backing of the committee is estimated to reach 15 million dollars, of which Soros provides one-third himself.”
Ha! Perish the thought!
As if a super PAC with $15 million, operating in three or more states, could inflame hostile sentiment against Trump, during an entire campaign, to a tiny fraction of the extent Trump did so himself with utterance of a couple of defamatory sentences.
Ooh! Five million bucks. That wouldn’t cover the postage and mailing house fees for a decent mail piece in a multi-state effort.
Trump did not start these wars, but he can end them. That will stop migration flows naturally. Trump can also persecute the instigators of these endless wars. That will stop the hatred against Moslims as these wars have absolutely nothing to do with religion. That Trump is doing worse than his predecessors, is something that a child in Afghanistan will find hard to believe whose family has been droned by the previous US administration. I wouldn’t believe it either. And Glenn neither, I am sure.
So why does Glenn conclude that ‘the danger now is that this immigration ban is merely the first step on this heinous path, not the last?’ Trump’s administration did not start from a clean white sheet, so to speak.
Why can’t Glenn Greenwald just say:
END THE WAR ON TERROR
Instead of writing all this confusing stuff?
Very sorry, but this article is totally unhelpful in producing any productive activism against the Trump Phenomenon, while Greenwald is proposing a revolution when he sais that ‘it’s urgent that everything be done to denounce it, battle it, and defeat it now’
How?
Very sorry, but I just don’t understand what the purpose is of this article.
Of course you don’t. In your tenure here you’ve displayed the usual fact-challengedness and deficient reasoning of most ardent Trumpers.
Because Glenn Greenwald is not stupid. Donald Trump is pledged to exacerbate that war. Trump: “We’re going to hit them and we’re going to hit them hard. I’m talking about a surgical strike on these ISIS stronghold cities using Trident missiles.” The Trident is armed with thermonuclear warheads and is launched from nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines. ISIS is embedded in cities and towns in Iraq and Syria.
That’s just one example. Donald Trump has made it clear bombing Muslim countries is on his agenda.
Barack Obama also made it clear that bombing Muslim countries was on his agenda .. as did Bush (and HRC for that matter, although with her it was always “regretfully”) .. but none of them had a plan for the massive refugee crisis that has resulted …
… a massive crisis that trump has inherited … a crisis that the hippie civil rights flower power rainbow love coalition continues to minimize and demand others deal with …
certainly the universities can take a few thousand more … certainly SOMEONE ELSE will provide for these people, at the urging of the pure and the clean
at least Trump has contradicted himself on war, since he also said something about no first use of nuclear weapons in addition to his ISIS comments
The crisis at its worst inheres in what Trump just did — turning away people fleeing for their lives.
Oh, fer shur. Like that dirty hippie Daniel Drezner:
“Very sorry, but I just don’t understand what the purpose is of this article.”: this article is exactly triggering the development Trump tries to stop!
I see. And Trump “triggers” what with rants about bombing Muslim cities with nuclear missiles? Do you suppose this was a tad “triggering”:
Glenn Greenwald did not say that. Guess who did?
You ever do anything besides comment on this website?
I could be wrong about Trump, but I seriously doubt it. He’s just signing away executive orders that, while extreme, are in line with long-standing US policy. He’s surrounded himself with people close to the establishment, who are just a bit more extremist than normal establishment types. We’ll see if he “ends the war on terror” as you claim or whether he makes it a lot worse. Antagonizing the population of US Muslims doesn’t look like a promising first step.
Contributed CAIR for legal funding. Thanks , Glenn, The colossal irony of not banning the nations most involved in waging war with us! This country is forever besmirched.
Contributed CAIR for legal funding. Thanks , Glenn
These attributes include hatred, selfishness, doing unto others what one doesn’t want done unto one (i.e., seeing otherness/tribalistic tendencies), anger, vengeance, lack of empathy, arrogance, injustice, self-pride, lust for power/control, etc., all the attributes that the lower self (aka consciousness) generally reflects in varying degrees,
instead of the attributes of the higher self, which reflects the opposite attributes, such as love, peace, not doing unto others what one doesn’t want done unto one, forgiveness, generosity, serving others with no expectations, selflessness, humility, lack of lust for showing off power and control, justice, recognizing that in essence, all human beings are the same, etc., etc., that is, Christ-like qualities, as presented by many.
Nice to see you here SM, regrettable though the circumstances might be.
Minor and temporary hiccup.
Give humanity a few more thousand years to evolve in its collective consciousness.
What a few thousand years between friends?
:-)
“Give humanity a few more thousand years to evolve in its collective consciousness.”
Stephen Hawking figures humanity has about a thousand years left unless we colonize space.
just sayin’
Sufi my dear, very good sermon but wrong audience.
Saudi Times and Paki News is the place where your comment will change the world to a supremely beautiful place to live in.
Not a sermon, just my 2 cents, which I have repeated countless times here.
It’s about one’s own personal development. No audience is the wrong audience.
I don’t have any access to them.
It’s about personal transformation. Charity begins at home, and one’s heart is one’s closest ‘home’.
I know, Sufi, you are great and wish all men were like you.
“.. men were like you” -gherc
If I’m not mistaken, the hallowed Sufi` is a dame..
That’s so self-serving. You have no leg to stand on for righteous finger-pointing at the moment.
Hi, Sufi. Welcome back!
Thanks Doug,
Just passing thru like a fleeting moment.
I’ll take what I can get.
” … the very idea of determining who merits refuge on the basis of religious belief is bigotry in its purest sense.”
it is the height of american exceptionalism to expect otherwise
While Muslims from ‘Muslim-majority’ countries like Iraq and Syria are banned, we have “The countries which have produced and supported the greatest number of anti-U.S. terrorists – Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, UAE – are excluded from the ban list because the tyrannical regimes that run those countries are close U.S. allies.” Thus it seems this is more of an economic ban than a religious one per se. Those who are likely to flee war and poverty are denied enrty whereas those from wealth and affluence (except Egypt which has massive income disparity so I am guessing it is a minority of Egyptians) are welcome.
Follow the link to the NYT article, then follow the link to the underlying report, and the current count is 94 “Jihadist” vs. 50 “Right Wing.”
Huh? The NYT piece:
So precisely what are you talking about?
Here’s your quote from the NYT piece with the link to the underlying report:
Click on the link to see the current numbers. Look at the graph right at the top: 94 Jihadist; 50 Right Wing. The NYT piece was written before San Bernadino (14) and Orando (49). Is there any reason why the 2015 numbers should be used instead of the current numbers? It seems deceptive.
You have to scroll up to see the graph.
It is self evident that the ban has nothing to do with terrorism. As the article points out, if terrorism were the primary concern, a completely different set of countries would have been targeted.
It is possible Mr. Trump is planning to stop the wars in the Middle East.
If the wars were stopped immediately, what would be the result? The factions supported by the US military, left to their own devices, are likely to be overwhelmed and slaughtered. This will lead to a flood of refugees, many with legitimate claims that they will be killed for having supported the US. US citizens will not tolerate the influx of millions of Al Qaeda fighters, trained by the CIA, as refugees. Therefore, the entry of refugees must be blocked before the US can stop bombing the Middle East.
Tossing their allies under the bus may seem somewhat ungrateful on the part of the US government. Governments, however, are not moral actors and must behave pragmatically. There is plenty of precedent for renouncing former allies once they become inconvenient.
The US has made a fundamental shift in its foreign policy. It is withdrawing globally, building walls and retreating behind them. The resulting vacuum in global power will inevitably be filled by something. We live in interesting times.
The Holocaust survivor Gene Klein has recounted how his mother and 2 sisters, inmates in a concentration camp, were marched through a German town every evening on their way to work the night shift in a munitions factory. During this trek they were frequently harassed or cursed by passersby. One evening some Hitler Youth members were taunting them when an elderly German man interrupted, saying, “Don’t laugh at them. This is not their shame. It is our shame!”
This is our shame, right here right now.
I just posted this in an older story, but … I want answers.
A reasonable person would have assumed that a visa already granted, a flight already boarded, would not be subject to the change in policy. Reasonable governments don’t issue papers and then say “whoops, changed our mind.” But according to https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/28/us/refugees-detained-at-us-airports-prompting-legal-challenges-to-trumps-immigration-order.html , Trump’s ban was imposed IMMEDIATELY on people who had boarded flights based on the promise from the U.S. that they would be able to enter the country. Furthermore, it says a person arriving from Stockholm was subject to be sent back to Iraq as the “country of origin”, and he was told that no claim of asylum could be made until he got there!
a) Is all this true?
b) Does this create a cause for civil liability? They got on planes, paid money, based on a promise they could land, and then for no reason that promise is revoked in mid-air.
c) What visas are or are not affected by the ban? Are people with permanent residency or long-term visas being denied what they were promised?
d) WHY aren’t we sending people who came from Stockholm back to Stockholm?
e) there is confusion reading the press over whether “citizens” of these countries or people for whom they are “countries of origin” are banned. Because there are various people who have nominal Iranian nationality because their fathers were Iranian but have never been there, and considering how Trump has fucked up everything else, I’m kind of counting on him to do the wrong thing here also.
f) Above all, if His Idiocy is actually taking random people from third countries, who were living there for years, and sending them back to countries of origin, and not accepting claims of asylum, then that seems to mean there may be actual *apostates*, the precise people any good Islamophobe wants to hold up as heroes, at risk of being thrown into the hands of governments that would kill them for it. And gays and so forth, people who write open source video software that eventually is run by the wrong site, whatever. Is Trump actually willing to pick up a stone and join a Muslim mob stoning someone to death for converting to the Christian faith???
There are reports that visas are being cancelled while people are abroad. If true, that’s just evil. Imagine: A student has spent thousands of dollars in tuition to go to college in the US. Then one day he goes home for the holidays. Upon return, he finds out he is not allowed in to resume his studies.
Out-and-out Nazism now all the rage. Tip-toed in past “Never Again” cloaked in reason, militarism and nationalism – if not religion. The Crusades – not just for the 1200’s any more. How sad…
How quaint.
The alt-right will be furious of course. They’re not bigots, they’re patriots.
Maybe you can chase them back into their basement hidey holes with a lawsuit or an op-ed.
Commercial factions can make a profit building homes or making weapons. What difference? Profit is profit. Bigotry is the new bad mortgage bubble and it’s about to pop.
Words won’t stop it. Not now.
Blood will fuel it.
No wonder Trump won’t release his tax returns or divest his businesses.
He’s about to make a killing.
(BTW, Dick Cheney isn’t going to wake up one morning with a Muslim daughter on his hands.)
Muslim folks are extremely good and generous people in general, but the probability of their being terrorists is rather too high to be indefinitely ignored. We should have banned the Pakis and the Saudis also along with their brothers in arms as they actually happen to be be the worst of the whole lot, and there are fears that they may sneak in through those two countries whose citizenship and passports can be bought online. So just banning the folks of some countries do not really help. We need to check for some vital surgical procedures on everyone entering our borders to determine their susceptibility to terroristic activities and make sure we are all safe. Mr Obama when he was ruling the country was a very decent and nice person, and he let in lots of terrorists who are planning daily to kill us and then executing their plan ruthlessly. We have to send them back to where they came from. The children are innocent Muslims and we can convert them to a better form of worshiping style to enhance their quality of life here. We must also ban the shouting of Aluhakbars that seem to energize them to act in strange fashion.
What’s “too high”? In the order of 1 in a million perhaps?
There are about 1 million terrorists about 7 billion Muslim people. But they are not uniformly divided. There are a lot fewer terrorists in Africa and East Asia. So overall, say 1 million terrorists in 3 billion crookeds. So that is 1 in 3000, if my arithmetic is right. That’s a bit too much for my liking.
I am very inclined to waive this ban for Sufi people who are not really Muslim people because they have a completely different style of thinking. They just need to modify their preying habits and they will be alright.
Your “math” is a hallucination existing only in your head.
Since the early part of the last century we have been slowly discovering that we live in a probabilistic universe where everything is almost as much probable as it is improbable. Professor Einstein was not very happy about the idea, but ultimately he too succumbed to the force of this hallucinatory theory. Perhaps you will do yourself a service to educate yourself in this Yin-Yang concept of the Universe, and this Chinese New Year today bodes an auspicious moment when to start.
What’s this based on? If you only count perpetrators of terrorist attacks, does that even get into the thousands? If you count militants of various armed groups, I don’t think it even reaches 100,000. There are about as many militia members in the US.
If two million people could have gathered in the National Mall on the day of the inauguration, I see no reason why Terror bin Baghdadi cannot gather around himself at least half that number in the vast expanse of the desert in a land replete with people who subscribe to his ideology. You have no idea how small a crowd of a million people looks like.
“You have no idea how small a crowd of a million people looks like.”
Apparently, it looks bigger in small hands.
That’s not even remotely an indication of how many actual terrorists there are in the Muslim population. If you surveyed Americans and asked if they believe violence is justified in pursuit of the national interest, how many do you think would answer in the affirmative?
Heck, that’s not even rhetorical. Would you say that around half of Americans are terrorists?
Your rant is replete with ignorant falsehoods.
Like who? Both the San Bernadino and Orlando attackers were U.S. citizens. The Orlando shooter was born in New York.
All these shooters were hypnotized and coerced by the incoming terrorists and made to perform to their bidding, as we are slowly finding out. They were not bad people when they were here living peacefully. But the sudden influx of very bad people made them bad by the phenomenon of diffusion of crooked thoughts and ideas. Our policies failed to protect those shooters as well as us.
One shooter dad got very close to one of the presidential candidates in one election rally. Imagine what could have happened in those circumstances had that radical chap also had been under influence, which is highly probable in any case. It was our great fortune that nothing happened.
You seem to be claiming the shooters were radicalized by immigrants. That’s an extraordinary claim, as there are lots of ways someone could be radicalized in the age of the internet. So what’s your evidence?
The terrorists are clever people. They are taught to identify and influence vulnerable people and not endanger themselves by taking on suicidal missions. These days only novice terrorists use the internet and get caught quickly.
“It was our great fortune that nothing happened.”
My great fortune said I was going on a trip soon.
I feel that is something to crow about as I’ve been cooped-up for sometime.
OK, Mona (many of whose comments are quite good), some terrorists are citizens. But all of the 9/11 terrorists were foreigners, who entered the country legally on a temporary visa.
So if we put a moratorium on all immigration and visas, we’ll not stop ALL terrorism, but we’ll likely largely reduce the chances of it, esp. of mega-attacks.
What’s wrong with that? Why do we need more people here? To spur us to pillage the environment even faster than we’re already doing? (Americans inflict much more damage to the environment than do most other peoples, per capita.)
(See my comment below, at 11:56 a.m.)
“But all of the 9/11 terrorists were foreigners, who entered the country legally on a temporary visa.”
—-
You may want to check the number of Americans killed by the citizens of these seven countries compared to the numbers killed by the citizens from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt since 1975.
Link: http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2017/01/29/exp-gps-0129-take-travel-ban.cnn/video/playlists/donald-trump-muslims/
Between 1975 and 2015, the number of Americans killed by the citizens of these seven countries: ZERO
By the citizens of Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt: watch the clip.
Perhaps Fareed Zakaria is telling alternate facts?
OK, Sufi, I’d indeed rather take my chances on Sudanese that on Saudis.
But why must we gamble on any of them? We’ve too damn many people (and too few decent jobs, and a pillaged/ dying landscape) as it is.
Moreover, our recent leaders have shown themselves (e.g. on/after 9/11) incapable of anything of public importance, so we can’t trust them to exercise judgment about who to let into the US. So let’s strip them of the power to exercise such ” judgment”.
As Glenzilla wrote a decade ago (about the Bushies) “they ruin everything they touch” (except for the portfolios of Wall St., the health care and Education cartels, the Deep State crowd, etc.).
Dubya’s two successors couldn’t hold FDR’s or JFK’s jocks, so our honorable inclinations to still try to be a haven for the oppressed must face the realities of the degeneracy of our current leadership class (incl. in the MSM, as Glenzilla continues to remind us).
Interesting stuff, Herc. The issue is Wahhabi/ Salafist ideology, born in Saudi, and exported to Pakistan and others. This ideology breeds not only terrorism, but mass-rape-fests like that which ambushed Colonge on New Years over a year ago (exploiting scantily-clad females who thus make themselves, by Salafist lights, into “public women”).
On the practical aspects, if it’s so easy for two countries’ passports to be bought online, what if we included those two countries on the ban list, until they clean up their systems, enough to stop such purchases?
And, until we invented “surgical procedures” to vet budding terrorists/ rapists, why not start a moratorium on immigration from all countries, ESP. those who’ve recently opened their borders to potential terrorists/ rapists? Are we really in such dire need for immigrants, that we should be flirting with Russian Roulette? (Such a moratorium might also help ease pressure on working-class wages.)
I find it rather bizarre that a proven liar, denounced as a xenophobe/racist, specifically toward muslims, can get away with droning muslims to death without providing any evidence of their crimes.
This to me is the greatest crime of all. Death without trial, with no consideration for sovereignty or civilian casualties.
He rightly gets plenty of grief for everything else yet this goes relatively under the radar.
Well, drone assassinations certainly have not been under Greenwald’s radar.
Yes, how is that we have come to a point were we accept that it is OK to drone un-named people on secret lists in other countries?
Glenn’s statement:
“The danger now is that this immigration ban is merely the first step on this heinous path, not the last.”
It is not the first step, it it? What I would like Glenn to postulate is where is the whole thing going? What is the “end game’ going to be?
Semi-war, freedom fighters, terrorism, partial occupation, uncontrolled immigration, drone strikes, closing borders – where is this all leading?
It seems to me that this is all heading for greater chaos as opposed to greater cooperation – the zero-sum gaming mentality here is scary.
Glenn doesn’t do much prognosticating, and especially with Donald Trump, how could anyone? Trump is unstable, ignorant, and in many ways unpredictable.
More willful ignorance.
Anyone can predict where this goes. That’s why many people voted for him.
Michael Brown may be dead and Ferguson forgotten, but there’s another Michael Brown walking down the street today, maybe in Ferguson or maybe in Detroit. Somewhere in America.
What happens next is entirely predictable.
Then do set forth some specific predictions of the Trump Administration’s actions and policies. Provide a basis is sound reasoning and fact in support of your predictions. So, you know, you can show that I’m truly “willfully ignorant.”
Are you referencing Obama or Trump?
If the latter, then a simple search using duckduckgo listed stories about the first drone strikes under him which started literally the day he was sworn into office. It was reported by the following media organizations, among others:
Breitbart
CNN
The Hill
MSN
USA News
CBS
Here is what CNN had to say about it,
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/23/politics/drone-strikes-president-trump/index.html
For such a heinous crime it is hardly a scathing criticism, it it just reporting that it happened.
As Mona points out the likes of Greenwald do denounce drones, but the “respectable” outlets arent so bothered.
For example the Guardian reported it happened in one or two pieces, then run 10-15 or so on his foreign aid policy.
You are correct to condemn Obama.
Thank you for bringing clarity to countless issues: mass surveillance, alleged Russian interference in the election, Trump’s policies in the context of the Bush and Obama administrations, and more. It is a pleasure to read your articles. In your writing and speeches, I have never seen you discuss Dennis Hastert, and the implications from his case that key figures in government may be compromised through blackmail by members of intelligence agencies. What are your thoughts on Bill Clinton’s close ties to Jeffrey Epstein, the Franklin Scandal, and alleged child abuse by numerous politicians in the Thatcher administration? Gary Webb, the journalist who broke the Iran Contra story, claimed that Clinton helped the CIA bring cocaine into the US through the Mena, Arkansas airport when he was governor. Given the huge amounts of money involved in human trafficking and the drug trade, it seems likely to me that factions within the intelligence community would involve themselves in these seedy enterprises to obtain two main benefits. 1) Money that is not officially accounted for, which can be used to fund covert operations. 2) Ensnaring politicians as business partners and customers to compromise them and excercise further control over our political system. In all of your discussion of the US’s unprecedented mass surveillance program, I have never heard you touch on the frightening potential to blackmail key government figures, something that Russ Tice has hinted at in interviews. I would love to hear you discuss some of the issues I have raised. Thanks again for all your work, Mr.Greenwald.
Amazing article, agree 100%, but I believe the country Obama didn’t bomb was Iran instead of Sudan?
“Indeed, as of a 2015 study by the New America research center, deaths caused by terrorism from right-wing nationalists since 9/11 have significantly exceeded those from Muslim extremists.”
This is misleading and detracts from an otherwise excellent article. Both San Bernardino and Orlando occured after this date
Your claim that the article is “misleading” is not supported by the reason you cite, to wit: San Bernardino and Orlando. The support in Greenwald’s piece is a link to this NYT piece:
My son is an auxiliary police officer who reports the same. Cops fear the white,
“sovereign citizen” militia types more than any other political actors.
So, if anyone should be banned, it’s domestic militia members and white nationalists.
I don’t like these comparisons, because you can’t compare the two populations. Some would point out that Muslims are a small minority in the US. But there’s a more significant difference: Right-wing nationalists are not a population that is constantly being bombed and oppressed by foreign governments. What’s the root cause of their violence?
Yes, President Trump, you do the right thing to keep refugees from nations we have destroyed out of our country. There is no justification for risking the lives of ordinary Americans by importing people who despise us.
The real solution is not immigration, it is stopping the wars that have shamefully destroyed those people’s countries.