Defending free speech and free press rights, which typically means defending the right to disseminate the very ideas society finds most repellent, has been one of my principal passions for the last 20 years: previously as a lawyer and now as a journalist. So I consider it positive when large numbers of people loudly invoke this principle, as has been happening over the last 48 hours in response to the horrific attack on Charlie Hebdo in Paris.
Usually, defending free speech rights is much more of a lonely task. For instance, the day before the Paris murders, I wrote an article about multiple cases where Muslims are being prosecuted and even imprisoned by western governments for their online political speech – assaults that have provoked relatively little protest, including from those free speech champions who have been so vocal this week.
I’ve previously covered cases where Muslims were imprisoned for many years in the U.S. for things like translating and posting “extremist” videos to the internet, writing scholarly articles in defense of Palestinian groups and expressing harsh criticism of Israel, and even including a Hezbollah channel in a cable package. That’s all well beyond the numerous cases of jobs being lost or careers destroyed for expressing criticism of Israel or (much more dangerously and rarely) Judaism. I’m hoping this week’s celebration of free speech values will generate widespread opposition to all of these long-standing and growing infringements of core political rights in the west, not just some.
Central to free speech activism has always been the distinction between defending the right to disseminate Idea X and agreeing with Idea X, one which only the most simple-minded among us are incapable of comprehending. One defends the right to express repellent ideas while being able to condemn the idea itself. There is no remote contradiction in that: the ACLU vigorously defends the right of neo-Nazis to march through a community filled with Holocaust survivors in Skokie, Illinois, but does not join the march; they instead vocally condemn the targeted ideas as grotesque while defending the right to express them.But this week’s defense of free speech rights was so spirited that it gave rise to a brand new principle: to defend free speech, one not only defends the right to disseminate the speech, but embraces the content of the speech itself. Numerous writers thus demanded: to show “solidarity” with the murdered cartoonists, one should not merely condemn the attacks and defend the right of the cartoonists to publish, but should publish and even celebrate those cartoons. “The best response to Charlie Hebdo attack,” announced Slate’s editor Jacob Weisberg, “is to escalate blasphemous satire.”
Some of the cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo were not just offensive but bigoted, such as the one mocking the African sex slaves of Boko Haram as welfare queens (left). Others went far beyond maligning violence by extremists acting in the name of Islam, or even merely depicting Mohammed with degrading imagery (above, right), and instead contained a stream of mockery toward Muslims generally, who in France are not remotely powerful but are largely a marginalized and targeted immigrant population.But no matter. Their cartoons were noble and should be celebrated – not just on free speech grounds but for their content. In a column entitled “The Blasphemy We Need,” The New York Times‘ Ross Douthat argued that “the right to blaspheme (and otherwise give offense) is essential to the liberal order” and “that kind of blasphemy [that provokes violence] is precisely the kind that needs to be defended, because it’s the kind that clearly serves a free society’s greater good.” New York Magazine‘s Jonathan Chait actually proclaimed that “one cannot defend the right [to blaspheme] without defending the practice.” Vox’s Matt Yglesias had a much more nuanced view but nonetheless concluded that “to blaspheme the Prophet transforms the publication of these cartoons from a pointless act to a courageous and even necessary one, while the observation that the world would do well without such provocations becomes a form of appeasement.”
To comport with this new principle for how one shows solidarity with free speech rights and a vibrant free press, we’re publishing some blasphemous and otherwise offensive cartoons about religion and their adherents:
And here are some not-remotely-blasphemous-or-bigoted yet very pointed and relevant cartoons by the brilliantly provocative Brazilian cartoonist Carlos Latuff (reprinted with permission):






Is it time for me to be celebrated for my brave and noble defense of free speech rights? Have I struck a potent blow for political liberty and demonstrated solidarity with free journalism by publishing blasphemous cartoons? If, as Salman Rushdie said, it’s vital that all religions be subjected to “fearless disrespect,” have I done my part to uphold western values?
When I first began to see these demands to publish these anti-Muslim cartoons, the cynic in me thought perhaps this was really just about sanctioning some types of offensive speech against some religions and their adherents, while shielding more favored groups. In particular, the west has spent years bombing, invading and occupying Muslim countries and killing, torturing and lawlessly imprisoning innocent Muslims, and anti-Muslim speech has been a vital driver in sustaining support for those policies.
So it’s the opposite of surprising to see large numbers of westerners celebrating anti-Muslim cartoons – not on free speech grounds but due to approval of the content. Defending free speech is always easy when you like the content of the ideas being targeted, or aren’t part of (or actively dislike) the group being maligned.
Indeed, it is self-evident that if a writer who specialized in overtly anti-black or anti-Semitic screeds had been murdered for their ideas, there would be no widespread calls to republish their trash in “solidarity” with their free speech rights. In fact, Douthat, Chait and Yglesias all took pains to expressly note that they were only calling for publication of such offensive ideas in the limited case where violence is threatened or perpetrated in response (by which they meant in practice, so far as I can tell: anti-Islam speech). Douthat even used italics to emphasize how limited his defense of blasphemy was: “that kind of blasphemy is precisely the kind that needs to be defended.”
One should acknowledge a valid point contained within the Douthat/Chait/Yglesias argument: when media outlets refrain from publishing material out of fear (rather than a desire to avoid publishing gratuitously offensive material), as several of the west’s leading outlets admitted doing with these cartoons, that is genuinely troubling, an actual threat to a free press. But there are all kinds of pernicious taboos in the west that result in self-censorship or compelled suppression of political ideas, from prosecution and imprisonment to career destruction: why is violence by Muslims the most menacing one? (I’m not here talking about the question of whether media outlets should publish the cartoons because they’re newsworthy; my focus is on the demand they be published positively, with approval, as “solidarity”).
When we originally discussed publishing this article to make these points, our intention was to commission two or three cartoonists to create cartoons that mock Judaism and malign sacred figures to Jews the way Charlie Hebdo did to Muslims. But that idea was thwarted by the fact that no mainstream western cartoonist would dare put their name on an anti-Jewish cartoon, even if done for satire purposes, because doing so would instantly and permanently destroy their career, at least. Anti-Islam and anti-Muslim commentary (and cartoons) are a dime a dozen in western media outlets; the taboo that is at least as strong, if not more so, are anti-Jewish images and words. Why aren’t Douthat, Chait, Yglesias and their like-minded free speech crusaders calling for publication of anti-Semitic material in solidarity, or as a means of standing up to this repression? Yes, it’s true that outlets like The New York Times will in rare instances publish such depictions, but only to document hateful bigotry and condemn it – not to publish it in “solidarity” or because it deserves a serious and respectful airing.
With all due respect to the great cartoonist Ann Telnaes, it is simply not the case that Charlie Hebdo “were equal opportunity offenders.” Like Bill Maher, Sam Harris and other anti-Islam obsessives, mocking Judaism, Jews and/or Israel is something they will rarely (if ever) do. If forced, they can point to rare and isolated cases where they uttered some criticism of Judaism or Jews, but the vast bulk of their attacks are reserved for Islam and Muslims, not Judaism and Jews. Parody, free speech and secular atheism are the pretexts; anti-Muslim messaging is the primary goal and the outcome. And this messaging – this special affection for offensive anti-Islam speech – just so happens to coincide with, to feed, the militaristic foreign policy agenda of their governments and culture.
To see how true that is, consider the fact that Charlie Hebdo – the “equal opportunity” offenders and defenders of all types of offensive speech – fired one of their writers in 2009 for writing a sentence some said was anti-Semitic (the writer was then charged with a hate crime offense, and won a judgment against the magazine for unfair termination). Does that sound like “equal opportunity” offending?
Nor is it the case that threatening violence in response to offensive ideas is the exclusive province of extremists claiming to act in the name of Islam. Terrence McNally’s 1998 play “Corpus Christi,” depicting Jesus as gay, was repeatedly cancelled by theaters due to bomb threats. Larry Flynt was paralyzed by an evangelical white supremacist who objected to Hustler‘s pornographic depiction of inter-racial couples. The Dixie Chicks were deluged with death threats and needed massive security after they publicly criticized George Bush for the Iraq War, which finally forced them to apologize out of fear. Violence spurred by Jewish and Christian fanaticism is legion, from abortion doctors being murdered to gay bars being bombed to a 45-year-old brutal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza due in part to the religious belief (common in both the U.S. and Israel) that God decreed they shall own all the land. And that’s all independent of the systematic state violence in the west sustained, at least in part, by religious sectarianism.
The New York Times‘ David Brooks today claims that anti-Christian bias is so widespread in America – which has never elected a non-Christian president – that “the University of Illinois fired a professor who taught the Roman Catholic view on homosexuality.” He forgot to mention that the very same university just terminated its tenure contract with Professor Steven Salaita over tweets he posted during the Israeli attack on Gaza that the university judged to be excessively vituperative of Jewish leaders, and that the journalist Chris Hedges was just disinvited to speak at the University of Pennsylvania for the Thought Crime of drawing similarities between Israel and ISIS.
That is a real taboo – a repressed idea – as powerful and absolute as any in the United States, so much so that Brooks won’t even acknowledge its existence. It’s certainly more of a taboo in the U.S. than criticizing Muslims and Islam, criticism which is so frequently heard in mainstream circles – including the U.S. Congress – that one barely notices it any more.
This underscores the key point: there are all sorts of ways ideas and viewpoints are suppressed in the west. When those demanding publication of these anti-Islam cartoons start demanding the affirmative publication of those ideas as well, I’ll believe the sincerity of their very selective application of free speech principles. One can defend free speech without having to publish, let alone embrace, the offensive ideas being targeted. But if that’s not the case, let’s have equal application of this new principle.
Photo by Joe Raedle/Getty Images; additional research was provided by Andrew Fishman
Long before westerners discovered the human rights and what freedom of speech means, El-Qur’aan El-Hakeem stated in verse [3:186]:
“Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil,-then that will be a determining factor in all affairs”
Sadaqa Allahu El-3adheem
We, muslim, have the obligation to respect freedom of speech and have an obligation to stay calm before verbal and written violences and insults against our beliefs, cultures, traditions as did our Prophet (Sala Allahu 3alaihi wa salam) when he was insulted.
Many from Charlie Hebdo staff, as Wolinski, were against Charbonnier who was a biased cartoonist against Islam and muslims to say the least.
Charbonnier encouraged hate and violence against Islam and muslim in France.
Glenn is absolutely correct that the majority of people would object to the free speech of cartoons that they found objectionable. But I think the public is well served by being shown the objectionable content, if it is anti-Semitic then the public can say “wow, that’s offensive”, if it is racist then the public can say “wow, that’s racist.” If terrorists were so incensed by the content that they were willing to kill for it, then it is valuable for the public to see it and understand the context. Is the material simply offensive or is it an exhortation to violence against a religion?
I think it is an important for context that the general public be shown the offending material, and major news outlets have an obligation to show that content because it is newsworthy. This past week CNN gleefully played ISIS propaganda videos of a child shooting two prisoners. Why? Because it would draw ratings and feed their narrative. But when it came time to publish the Charlie Hebdo cover image they balked saying it violated their journalistic standards.
I just posted a one-sentence (or maybe two ) comment here, and I don’t see it. Where is it Freda?
Here’s to an article well-written, and to a discussion crowd well-deserving…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwkanykMSoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0NpJkuYCgk
They can torture me but they can never stop me…Unless they kill me…
I too, like you Mr. Greenwald, am traveling when I wrote this, and I rushed it to you in the chat box, and have a speaking engagement I am rushing too. It is not without need of editing but at least I have proofread the article once, and would like to replace the original with this copy. Thanks
Dear Mr. Greenwald and The Intercept,
I am Dr. David Duke, former member of the House of Representatives in Louisiana and one of the people who are also demonized by the mainstream media.
They attack me for my involvement in the klan over 36 years ago, but don’t ever bother to read my current writings on many subjects. I too am an outspoken critic of suppression of freedom of speech as well as critical of Zionist-biased media in the United States.
I grew up and evolved and learned that every people must have the same rights that I espouse for my own. I am disappointed that Jewish extremists have not evolved as I have.
I am sure you may disagree with me on many things, Mr. Greenwald and you who read this at this time.
But, how do you know if you don’t read what I actually say and promote every day of my life on my daily radio show and in my books and writings.
Most of you probably have no idea that I was one of the world’s best known opponents of the insane Iraq War, a war catastrophic for the people of that country as it has in many ways been catastrophic for America.
You don’t know that I have excellent friendship with many anti-Zionist Jewish people all over the world, and have been invited to speak before of every race in universities all over the world. They have read my books and articles and saw a person quite different than the media projects.
Most Americans have no idea that I have spoken to the many organizations and in universities all over the world that are African and Asian. I am thankful and humbled that many of the academics and students have now known me for years and respect me greatly.
You probably don’t know some of the leading physicians have linked and supported my videos and that there are many others who are eminent in their fields of study who respect my work. It is exampled by the doctors who published a letter in the Lancet on Israeli crimes against the people of Gaza last summer. Some of them, linked my videos, and just doing that brought the wrath of Zion down around their heads. So much for freedom in a world where Zionists not only control Israel but many other nations of the world.
Of course, how could you know about all this. The mass media is too busy creating a caricature of what they say I say, rather than what I actually have been saying and writing for many years now.
But thank God for the internet….when people go to my site they see what I actually say rather than what they say I say.
Without free speech you never have the chance to hear unabridged what I or any other controversial person says.
Believe it or not, I condemn racism, any racism by any person. I have not only never been violent or advocated violence, but vigorously condemned it. i don’t believe in oppression, harm or exploitation of any other group by any group.
White racism is a legitimate subject to discuss. But, the big question is, why is discussion of Jewish tribalism and ethnocentrism and supremacism (racism) a forbidden subject?
Maybe you can understand why Jewish extremism in the highest echelons of Israel and many of the most powerful Jewish organizations in America is seldom discussed when you learn of the power that Zionist racists have in politics, media and finance. It is far greater than you might even suspect.
Why is Jewish racism in Israel — the extreme, ethnically cleansing Jewish supremacist state of Israel — verboten to discuss? If Zionism and it’s incarnation is not racist, then nothing is racist.
Segregation was condemned in the South and in South Africa but the ethnic cleansing and ethnic terrorism of Israel and overwhelmingly segregated nation of Israel is hardly ever exposed? Often the segregation of Israel is enforced on the very land they continue to steal from the Palestinians in totally segregated settlements.
Why do most people in the West not even know that in Israel no marriage can be legally performed between a Jew and a non Jew. An atheist Jew can marry a religious Jew…so it is primarily, as we should all know, it is overwhelmingly based on DNA, not religion.
Imagine the reaction in the mainstream media if any Western nation made it illegal to perform a marriage between Jew and Gentile.
Are there people who honsestly believe that Jewish racism doesn’t exist?
That’s why I am so demonized. It is because I dare to defend the Palestinian people today as well as every people who are harmed by Zionist, Jewish tribalists. I guess I am at the top of their list. I would suggest it is not because I truly am an anti-Semite (which I am not) but because in defense of human rights, I expose the world’s most influential racist ideology, Zionism.
In fact, I don’t think there is any racism on Earth more powerful and murderous than Zionist racism.
Just look at the history of Israel, and look at last summer’s ethnic slaughter and maiming of over 20,000 Palestinian men, women and children. I believe this should be brought in every discussion with Israeli leaders.
The media brings up my long-ago, short time Klan affiliation in my twenties in every interview, and practically every headline, as in the recent Congressman Steve Scalise issue.
They would probably have done the same to Robert Byrd if he would not have been subservient to the Israeli Lobby.
The Zionist agenda affects politics and media, not just in America but in many countries all over the world.
I did a video on free speech a long time ago. I have been echoing the same thoughts of freedom of speech for my entire political life.
You can google David Duke and on my site you can find the YouTube video called The Zionist War on Freedom of Speech.
Also take a look at my video called CNN GOLDMAN SACHS and the Zio Matrix of Power. It has 770,000 views from every nation on Earth and millions more views in its copies and other video sites. Google analytics show it has a 96 percent viewer thumbs up rating on YouTube. This was the video recommended by some of the Lancet doctors.
If I am preaching such terrible things why do all my videos have such positive ratings even though many come to my site and videos with a bias because of the way I am characterized by the media.
You can find it on the DavidDuke website and in Youtube.
Watch it and other videos, read my articles, listen to one or two of my radio shows or all of them for that matter over the last few years and I challenge anyone to find any racism. One will, however, find plenty of condemnation of racism. Listen for yourself
Thank You Mr. Greenwald for being courageous enough to dare to expose hypocrisy and racism wherever it is found even among the chosen few have enormous power.
I hope your dedication to freedom of speech is real and that you will post my response to this article in the comments section.
For Human Rights and True Human Diversity,
Dr. David Duke
http://www.DavidDuke.com
Note: Sorry for the typo in first sentence my original post, I have some vision problems.
original reads: Louisiana and one the people who
It should obviously read Louisiana and one OF the people who
I am waiting for moderation.
Well you give me the courtesy of your allowing me to post on an issue I have written about for years.
Best Regards,
Dr.David Duke
I will save a copy of my comments, and if you choose not to publish them, I will publish them reporting their censure, if that occurs. Again I hope that you truly believe in free political speech and allowing interplay of ideas and commentary from the modern day “Boogy Man” of the mass media, David Duke.
Thanks again.
I am Dr. David Duke, former member of the House of Representatives in Louisiana and one the people who are also demonized by the mainstream media.
They attack me for my involvement in the klan over 36 years ago, but don’t ever bother to read my current writings on many subjects. I too am outspoken critic of suppression of freedom of speech as well as critical of Zionist-biased media in the United States.
I grew up and evolved and learned that every people must have the same rights that I espouse for my own. I am disappointed that Jewish extremists have not evolved as I have.
I am sure you may disagree with me on many things, Mr. Greenwald and you who read this at this time.
But, how do you know if you don’t read what I actually say and promote every day of my life on my daily radio show and in my books and writings.
Most of you probably have no idea that I was one of the world’s best known opponents of the insane Iraq War, a war catastrophic for the people of that country as it has in many ways been catastrophic for America.
You don’t know that I have excellent friendship with many anti-Zionist Jewish people all over the world, and have been invited to speak before of every race in universities all over the world. They have read my books and articles and saw a person quite different than the media projects.
Most Americans have no idea that I have spoken the many organizations and in universities all over the world that are African and Asian. I am thankful and humbled that many of the academics and students have now known me for years and respect me greatly.
You probably don’t know that leading physicians have linked and supported my videos and many others who respect my work. It is exampled by the doctors who published a letter in the Lancet on Israeli crimes against the people of Gaza last summer. Some of them, linked my videos, and just doing that brought the wrath of Zion down around their heads. So much for freedom in a world where Zionists don’t only control Israel but many other nations of the world.
Of course, how could you know about all this. The mass media is too busy creating a caricature of what they say I say, rather than what I actually have been saying and writing for many years now.
But thank God for the internet….when people go to my site they see what I actually say rather than what they say I say.
Without free speech you never have the chance to hear unabridged what I or any other controversial person says.
Believe it or not, I condemn racism, any racism by any person. I have not only never been violent or advocated violence, but vigorously condemned it. i don’t believe in oppression, harm or exploitation of any other group by any group.
White racism is a legitimate subject to discuss. Why is discussion of Jewish tribalism and ethnocentrism and supremacism (racism) a forbidden subject?
Maybe you can understand why that is when you learn the power Zionist racists have in politics, media and finance, it is far greater than you might even suspect.
Why is Jewish racism in Israel — the extreme, ethnically cleansing Jewish supremacist state of Israel — verboten to discuss? If Zionism and it’s incarnation is not racist, then nothing is racist.
Segregation was condemned in the South and in South Africa but the ethnic cleansing and ethnic terrorism of Israel and overwhelmingly segregated nation of Israel is hardly ever discussed? Often the segregation is enforced on the very land they continue to steal from the Palestinians.
Why do most people not even know that in Israel no marriage can be legally performed between a Jew and a non Jew. An atheist Jew can marry a religious Jew…so it is primarily, as we should all know, it is overwhelmingly based on DNA, not religion.
Do you really believe that Jewish racism doesn’t exist?
That’s why I am so demonized, because I dare to defend the Palestinian people today as well as every people who are harmed by Zionist, Jewish tribalists. I guess I am at the top of their list. I would suggest it is not because I truly am an anti-Semite but because in truly human rights fashion I expose the world’s most influential racist ideology, Zionism.
In fact I don’t any racism on Earth is more powerful than Zionist racism… after all the Zionist agenda dominates politics and media, not just in America but in many countries all over the world.
I did a video on free speech a long time ago. You can google David Duke and on my site you can find the YouTube video called The Zionist War on Freedom of Speech.
Also take a look at my video called CNN GOLDMAN SACHS and the Zio Matrix of Power. It has 770,000 views from every nation on Earth and millions more views in its copies and other video sites. Google analytics show it has a 96 percent viewer thumbs up rating on YouTube
If I am preaching such terrible things why do all my videos have such positive ratings even though many come to my site and videos with a bias because of the way I am characterized by the media.
You can find it on the DavidDuke website and in Youtube.
Watch it an other videos, read my articles, listen to one or two of my radio shows or all of them for that matter over the last few years and I challenge anyone to find any racism other than a condemnation of it. Listen for yourself
Thank You Mr. Greenwald for being courageous enough to dare to expose hypocrisy and racism wherever it is found even among the chosen few have enormous power.
I hope your dedication to freedom of speech is real and that you will post my response to this article in the comments section.
For Human Rights and True Human Diversity,
Dr. David Duke
http://www.DavidDuke.com
Re “the ACLU vigorously defends the right of neo-Nazis to march through a community filled with Holocaust survivors in Skokie, Illinois, but does not join the march” : That would be the “Nazi” Party led by Jew Frank Joseph Collin (Cohen), the pedophile rapist.
Fundametally innaccurate understanding of what happened in Paris. ‘Half’ the crime was killing folks who wrote a journal the terrorists did not like. The other half: Killing folks because they were Jewish. Are we to ‘skip’ the second half in our commentaries? I’m confused. Not a single commentary from a Muslim leader regarding the second half of the crime. Is this because it is so obviously a horrible act that no comment is required? Or is it because they are substantially sympathetic to this half of the crime? Why are there no Jews in Morocco, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc? Is it because Muslim societies are tolerant? Why are anti-semetic cartoons, even the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a regular feature of life in the Muslim world? Why are Christian populations in these countries in sharp decline?
The ultimate act of freedom is the discretion not to exercise that freedom. These cartoons are childish at best. We in the West claim to prize our right to expression, but in the U.S. 36.3% of the eligible voters actually voted. During the Iraq war, Walter Cronkite was just about the only journalist to speak out against the war. Our political debate is within narrow commercially acceptable parameters. If we are willing to sacrifice lives in order to assert our freedom of expression, shouldn’t we be doing a much better job at it?
People understand Voltaire selectively:
“I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”
There are two clauses in this sentence, not one. They demand reciprocity.
Those who claim their right to say what they want, who claim they applaud Voltaire, who accept his defense, must defend to the death Voltaire’s right to not agree with them.
They must defend to the death Voltaire’s right to not say what they say.
They must defend to the death Voltaire’s right to say what they do not say, and do not agree with.
They must even defend to the death Voltaire’s right to say what they do not want said.
Or they have not earned, and do not deserve, Voltaire’s defense.
It’s really sad that Greenwald is consistently incapable of understanding the difference between criticism of religion, and bigotry against all believers of that religion (simply for being believers). Eg, this piece uses the words Islam and Muslims interchangeably, but they are two different things. Again, he persists in his obstinate mischaracterizations of Sam Harris’ views, which comes close to malice in my opinion since he’s been corrected on it numerous times, but maybe Greenwald truly is just incapable of comprehending the issue.
One of the reasons it’s become so difficult to criticize Judaism – and increasingly Islam – is because those two religions are associated with an ethnic identity much more so than Christianity. And I’ve come to believe, sadly, that way too many people share Greenwald’s failing – they are unable to distinguish blasphemy from bigotry. The former is dissent from or criticism of doctrines and practices (and religious leaders), and the latter is prejudice and hatred against an identifiable group or members of it, based on an immutable characteristic or shared identity. The former is an essential freedom, and the latter is what is prohibited as hate speech in many countries.
This boy, I say, this boy can write!
The chic accessory at the Golden Globes this week was a Je Suis Charlie button. It was undoubtedly worn by a few politically correct stars who a few seasons ago wouldn’t have been caught dead wearing Dior as the head of the house had recently been arrested, put on trial, fined and lost his job for going on a drunken rant and throwing some very offensive anti-Semitic remarks around in a French bar.
wow, thank you for the exaustive lecture on freedom of expression!
Bravo, Glenn!
“Is it time for me to be celebrated for my brave and noble defense of free speech rights?”
Just as soon as you’ve taken a bullet for it.
You let us know when that happens, mmm’kay?
Everyone is for “free speech” but not everyone agrees with its application. Even with a very scanty knowledge of the Muslim religion, I know that any image of their Prophet is a serious affront; a cartoon mocking him is horrendous in their eyes. The French magazine showed a cartoon ridiculing Mohammed, offending Muslims, but under the cover of innocent worldly satire. It it is hard to evaluate the cartoon’s purpose as anything other than to stir up Muslims and lead the rest of us to laugh at their religion. Suppose the same magazine printed a cartoon that was a direct equally damaging insult to Jews, or to Christians? Not gentle satire against Moses or Christ, but something designed to inflame: making fun of the Holocaust victims, ridiculing the Crucifixion, etc.
Most of us, including Muslims, agree that retaliation by murder requires that the culprits be apprehended and punished by applicable law. Still, although homicide is far worse than any insult, this affair raises a question. The magazine was in the business of producing satire for money. Should the law permit hateful speech designed to inflame and insult the members of a particular race, religion, or life-style if it is offered under the somewhat dubious cover of harmless satire? Or, do we need a degree of censorship where ordinary sensitivity and a decent regard for the opinions and feelings of others is lacking? If so, should this censorship apply only to vicious attacks on the race, religion, or life-style of the majority?
I could be wrong but these exremists postings on the Internet encourage violence and radicaliztion. It just does not just offer another point of view . The proof is all these terrorists groups. Honestly I would respect other groups. Charles hebdo went too far . Still the killing was wrong.
There is a huge difference between mocking religion, a tried-and-true tradition of the liberal left, and inciting hatred or violence toward adherents of a particular religion, which is prohibited for very obvious reasons. Funnily enough, I arrived at this page searching for a cartoon that would mock my own religion, Judaism, to post it on my FB page in support of freedom of expression. While in the Muslim world not a single nation dared to post a cartoon showing the prophet Mohamed with a teardrop in his eye under the heading “All is forgiven”, there are literally thousands of cartoons based on the most pernicious myths about Jews and clearly intended to inspire hatred and violence against them. None of these mocked my religion, which, like all religions is worthy of lampooning; rather they caricaturized Jews like myself– and Greenwald– as the incarnations of evil. That Greenwald is unable to see this distinction by a cursory glance at he cartoons he has posted in this article is quite phenomenal. Even the cartoon about the Boko Haram slaves is poking fun at the way Muslim polygamists in France misuse the welfare system to their benefit. It serves a social function, attacking the religious custom of polygamy in the context of a modern liberal society. Leaving aside all of the political cartoons here that choose to paint Israelis as bloodthirsty monsters (I pity anyone who believes that to be true), the cartoon that comes closest to mocking Judaism is the one showing Moses descending from Mount Sinai with an 11th commandment on the tablets declaring “Thou shalt control the media”. Very cute indeed! Only that, unlike polygamy in Islam, “control of the media” has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with incitement to hatred based on a false premise of a mythical Jewish religious conspiracy to control the world, a trope first found in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, repeated by Hitler and rampant today in the Muslim world with all its “sensitivities” about mockery of their own religion. Those at Charlie Hedbo were traditional leftists, following in the footsteps of Voltaire, who found religion a subject worthy of provocation. That brand of leftism is becoming increasing rare due to the epidemic of political correctness being spread by misguided individuals like Greenwald, who masquerade behind a false premise of “equal opportunity” but are really opportunists out to appease a totalitarian ideology that not only promulgates hatred and violence but seeks to impose its dictates on the freedoms enjoyed in the West. Mr Greenwald, take another look at the anti-Jewish cartoons you have posted and show me which of those is lampooning Judaism as opposed to slandering Jews? If you are unable to make the qualitative distinction, I woulkd question your credentials as a reputable journalist.
Netanyahu told to stay home by Hollande and not come to France, but Netanyahu goes to France anyway.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.636557
“If, as Salman Rushdie said, it’s vital that all religions be subjected to “fearless disrespect,” have I done my part to uphold western values?”
Not really. There was nothing ‘fearless’ about you posting those cartoons, and you know it – that’s why you posted them. You know perfectly well that no one will kill you for doing so; the most you will get is “Glenn Greenwald is being a pillock again.” You have just kicked the cat as supposedly ‘principled’ demonstration of why it’s bigoted to kick the tiger. You are not brave, or principled, Mr Greenwald, you’re just a weaselly poser.
How horrible would it be if Glenn Greenwald, Glen Ford, Chris Hedges, and Paul Jay had merrily joined the demonstration for “freedom of speech” as so many of our surviving cartoonists have done through their art. The fact that Binyamin Netanyahu joined in is so ironic that it makes me laugh through the pain.
In my opinion any thing which insults an Individual, religion, or any organization should not be encouraged. Freedom of speech and writing should follow human dignity and respects its values. If you do not believe in any faith or do not agree with the views and ideas then you must express your opinion within the parameters of mutual respect and humility.
Expressing derogatory remarks and expression will increase hatered and enemity. We should set and example to younger generation who will follow and respect human values and principles.
Typical Greenwald style apologetics for the worlds most backwards, dangerous, and anti free society ideologies the world has ever known. Criticize the idea and your a bigoted racist xenophobe. Conflating these Jewish cartoons with the Charlie Hebdo or Danish cartoons is remarkably ignorant and short sighted. First of all, no one is being slaughtered for expressing mockery of Jews or the Holocaust. If they were being slaughtered in the way satirical cartoonists are by Muslims or being forced into hiding because a fatwa has been placed on them, then guess what? I would support every cartoon imaginable mocking Jews. However, as we all know this is not the case. There is only one religion that does this and backing down because their religious sensibilities have been offended allows the extremists to set the rules for our society which values free speech as the foundation for all of our other freedoms. Your apologies for Islam get more sickening with every article Greenwald.
ot`
Sharia Law Comes To England: Hide Your Infidel Children, Pets and Jam (Habanero)
http://www.commondreams.org/further/2015/01/13/sharia-law-comes-england-hide-your-infidel-children-pets-and-jam
note: George Hamilton shade..
A Bronzer Production
As more information and in-depth analysis about Charlie Hedbo becomes available, it is increasingly clear that this article was a huge fail by Greenwald, which will probably be negatively associated with his way of thinking for a long time.
I’m inclined to think so too, to some extent anyway, but perhaps for different reasons than you hold. Care to elaborate?
How about that. The more stuff that comes out, the more I’m convinced Greenwald is on the right track; in fact, he’s displayed the most advanced thinking. Funny how that works, isn’t it?
you should read the sentence above the cartoon
the cartoon is not about muslim but about Book-haram.
Charlie hebdo also published cartoon on jews and Christian extremism.
A difference should be done between racial hatred incitation and religious or political extremism denunciation.
A difference should be done between humour bad or not on boko-haram and a video where men kills other men.
If you don’t see any difference it’s a bit sad.
Warm regards from France
I like the principled points about (the hypocrisy re:) the “free speech” narrative.
Would have liked the article even more if criticizing the most nefarious religion of them all, i.e. statolatry, had been included as the greatest taboo of all.
What I really dislike about these kind of articles is the implicit acceptance of the pro-War on Terror vs. the anti-War on Terror framework, when Islam is concerned. I find myself in agreement – if only this one time – with the malevolentists of the NeoCon persuation, who have over the years, argued that, “this (bombing, killing, persecuting, etcetera..) is NOT a war against Islam”. And indeed it isn’t. It also is NOT a war on terror, but wars to spread terror and in the meantime, expand the category “terrorist” to conveniently include (you wait and see) anyone who is planning to resist the managerial state running his life.
Back to Islam, real Islam for a change.
Over here, in the Netherlands, many people are fed up with Islamic doctrine and the obvious negative impact it has on our inner cities. This has nothing to do with “speech” or “phobia” and all kinds of abstract categories fit for the chattering classes. I reckon Mr. Greenwald has never seen neighbourhoods occupied and dominated by Muslims, but in Amsterdam, some blocks away from the museums, where one can shed one’s “tourist view” of the world, real life rears its ugly head. People who write abstract pieces like these also seem to lack in actual knowledge about what Islamic doctrine really is. Or if they have made some study of it, the knowledge never seems to inform the kinds of opinions typically voiced in their articles. Perhaps they don’t really care, and I can’t blame them. Studying a doctrine of hate is no uplifting matter, so keep at it. Write about speech and keep pointing at the hypocrites. You’re doing a good job.
Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Richard
(Sincerely hope this second attempt will be posted on the Intercept. Free speech, remember?)
As more and more people examine the issue of “free speech” in France and in the West, below is a point that I hadn’t seen made – France is quite repressive when it comes to speech in the streets, i.e., demonstrations. The hypocrisy of those chanting “I defend free speech” is truly appalling. (http://www.workers.org/articles/2015/01/13/charlie-hebdo-free-press-racism/)
In 2012, as protests swept the Muslim world in response to an anti-Muslim film made in the U.S., French Interior Minister Manuel Valls said prefects had orders to prohibit any protest and to crack down if the ban was challenged. “There will be strictly no exceptions. Demonstrations will be banned and broken up.” (Daily Mail, Sept. 21, 2012) Even prayer meetings and street prayers were banned. (CNN, Sept. 19, 2012)
In the same week Charlie Hebdo put out an extra run of cartoons featuring a grossly obscene caricature of a naked prophet Mohammed. The magazine was given extra police protection.
Freedom of speech and of the press is hardly sacred in France. It was punishable by a year in prison to even post on the Internet a notice of a demonstration opposing the Israeli onslaught on Palestine during the Israeli 2014 summer offensive on Gaza. France was the only country in the world to bar all demonstrations and protests in any form supporting Palestine during that time. The penalty was one year in jail and 15,000 euro fine.
During the attacks on Gaza, most pro-Palestinian demonstrations were indeed banned. Those who weren’t turned out to be peaceful protests. Those who were turned into riots. It’s as if Valls wanted a clash.
What you need to know is that the presidency has been extremely weak for months. Obama’s Superman in comparison. Hollande’s popularity went as low as 13 % in the polls (from Sep. to Nov. 2014).
http://www.tns-sofres.com/dataviz?type=1&code_nom=hollande
I’m certain a lot of politicians, some of whom despised Charlie Hebdo before the attacks (for the wrong reasons), are now considering the murdered cartoonists as useful idiots. How long it will last is, of course, another matter entirely…
The main issue is that Israélo palestinian conflict is imported in France. And those demonstrations
Finished most of the time by Jews school or synagogue attack.
Moreover in 2011 merah kills children, leading to
Great tension in France .
Please note a few demonstration has been
Forbidden to preserve public order but no Guantanamo neither patriot act have been voted.
Please note also that yasser arafat finished his days in France .
Warm regards from France
“The hypocrisy of those chanting “I defend free speech” is truly appalling”
However, the hypocrisy was not on Charlie Hebdo’s side. In 2012 the editor Charbonnier expressly spoke out against the decision of the then French (Socialist) Prime Minister Ayrault to forbid protests planned by Muslims, expressly defending their equal right to express themselves. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-editor-made-provocation-his-mission.html
Greenwald posted Charlie’s cartoons. He did not draw them. I am grateful that somebody did it because it shows a more complete picture. The media were ver deceptively selective in this.
Slightly off-topic, but this is truly worth your time:
*Unpacking the War on Terror: Letter to a Young Army Ranger (From an Old One)*
http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175942/
“this is truly worth your time…” – Cindy
Yes it was. Thanks, Cindy. Very valuable perspectives here.
Charlie had some pretty spicy cartoons about the Jews. Did they exercise the freedom of speech or were they anti-semitic? Or is this issue avoided in discussions altogether?
Now I don’t believe in trying to define the “Big” or “Magic” words that I don’t self identify under.
That’s just not how I roll.
But in the interest of trying to make a point I will temporarily self identify as a Muslim. And while I don’t believe in God, I also don’t believe in sincerity so this is much easier than you would think.
Now the first thing I will note is that I don’t believe anything different now that I’m a Muslim. It’s funny how this works. I didn’t believe anything different when I became an atheist, I just didn’t believe. Why would it be any different going the other way?
The first thing I want to do as a new Muslim is declare that the idea that Muhammad’s image is somehow sacred is bullshit. Makes no sense. Also, killing people that publish cartoons–evil. I am a Muslim that stands for free speech.
If you want to kill people because of the ideas that they publish you are not a Muslim in my eyes.
It is through the assertion of my beliefs that I affirm the Glory of God. I preach the new way that was always the old way. I speak of the unearthed made new.
Now I ask those that defend Islam but do not believe. Do you defend the hope and promise of Islam? Do you defend the future? Or do you defend the past? Do you defend the sin?
What is it that you want Islam to be?
Ask yourself if your view of Islam is really any different than those you see as attackers of Islam. You both speak of the past, not the future.
You forgive me for sins I did not commit, and call your insults kindness.
And All at once I am closer to God.
A pause to remember past blasphemies: An obituary in the NY Times for Al Bendich, formerly an attorney with the Northern California affiliate of the ACLU, who defended Allen Ginsberg’s epic poem “Howl,” and, later, Lenny Bruce’s comedy routines, in court.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/us/al-bendich-defender-of-howl-and-lenny-bruces-comedy-is-dead-at-85.html
Who started it?
Examples please of Muslims being imprisoned in America for “writing scholarly articles”
This, in today’s Miami Herald:
http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/op-ed/article6326721.html
I have the moral authority to issue that call to arms; the author does not appear to. Conspicuously missing from her jeremiad about free speech are both the case of Steven Salaita and the outrageous attack on speech that is the federal statute criminalizing “material support” for any group our State Dept says are terrorists, a heinous law upheld by an equally atrocious Supreme Court decision, Holder v. Humanitarian Law. I’ve loudly protested both those things.
She’s right about the European and Canadian hate speech laws; they’re intolerable, and it does make one ill to see supporters of these laws prancing about wearing “Je Suis Charlie” placards. But it is equally offensive that the Zionists who engineered and support the Salaita firing also imagine that they are Charlie. As well as any”advocate” of free speech who approves of the “material support” law.
If these folk are Charlie, I am not.
Mona: “Je suis Angela Merkel?”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/world/newspaper-in-israel-scrubs-women-from-a-photo-of-paris-unity-rally.html
Of course the Herald columnist did not mention the Salaita case, as she is concerned only with restrictions allegedly imposed by the all-powerful “left.”
While I believe Salaita was wrongfully dismissed (in the moral sense, if not necessarily the legal one), this is only because I was persuaded that the speech at issue was not anti-semitic. I don’t think universities are obligated to allow their students to be taught by bigots.
I don’t see why support of unfettered expression necessarily has to be an all-or-nothing thing. It seems to me that one may reasonably stand against the murder of cartoonists even if one is untroubled by the “overly broad definitions of verbal sexual harassment” that so concern the Herald columnist.
*Charlie Hebdo, the free press and racism*
“The French government’s protection of the racist journal Charlie Hebdo had nothing to do with protecting freedom of speech. This is a deception that must be confronted. In 2012 the same government that protected this vile publication banned any demonstrations or protests or even public prayers opposing the racist publication. French law allows for the prosecution of “public insults” based on religion, race, ethnicity or national origin. But the racist, sexist, bigoted, grossly insulting cartoons in Charlie Hebdo magazine were never once a source of any successful legal action…”
“In this period when Muslims are facing increasing, extreme right-wing attacks, and fascist mobilizations are growing in Europe, Charlie Hebdo functions as did the Nazi publication Der Sturmer with its vehemently anti-Semitic caricatures. Jewish people in Der Sturmer, as Muslims in Charlie Hebdo, were depicted with exaggerated facial features and misshapen bodies. Both publications use obscene, sexually explicit caricatures. The Nazi newspaper’s caricatures were part of a policy to make Jews an object of hatred, fear, ridicule and disdain. At the end of World War II, Julius Streicher, the editor of Der Sturmer — though he didn’t run death camps but used the press to incite hatred — was put on trial, convicted of crimes against humanity and executed.”
More at:
http://www.workers.org/articles/2015/01/13/charlie-hebdo-free-press-racism/
Highly recommend this storify of Jeet Heer’s tweeting on the subject of: “Spiegelman, Mouly, Crumb, Charlie Hebdo & the Underground Tradition”
https://storify.com/JeetHeer1/spiegelman-mouly-crumb-charlie-hebdo-and-the-under
YES. The Hebdo cartoons are pretty obviously in that tradition to anyone familiar with the genre. The Boko girls cartoon is most certainly Swiftian, as is a lor of the stuff. Th the extent that that’s not understood the whole discussion becomes (and has become) absurd. There really is no comprehension of underground humor aboveground. Maddening and probably futile to try to explain, as everyone has a use for their own misinterpretation.
We have a word for this.
For some reason we seem to believe that people who self identify under the same word, (for example–Muslim, or Republican) are of a hive mind, mentally and spiritually linked as one, submitting wholly and faithfully to a greater will, sharing equally in glory and blame, both messenger and eyes, fists and teeth, one large human composed of millions of individual people acting as cells and nerves. The blood and the virus as one.
All they have in common is that they share the same name.
One more time.
All they have in common is that they share the same name.
Should people named John apologize if some idiot named John goes on a shooting spree because someone called him “Johnny”? If you think there is a difference between someone’s name and their religion, make a list of all the reasons to keep the name you were given at birth, and Behold, I will show you the reasons to believe in god.
What words you self identify under do not matter, that is your metaphor. It is what you do with your metaphor that matters.
So we have some that want to condemn people who self identify with a specific word, and then we have others that want to forgive people who self identify with a specific word. Both ways are madness.
Both ways have thrown out their morality and their humanity for the hate/love of a word.
Not an idea. Not a morality. But for a word.
Madness.
It’s odd how people, who essentially believe in the same values can clash and fractionate in such a way. Freedom of speech, of expression, is a given, PROVIDING you believe you are speaking the truth. There are a lot of public commentators who are blatantly lying to the public. This is the issue we need to address most immediately. The insanity is caused by dissonance between the ‘reality’ depicted by the Western mainstream media and the reality which tends to crop up in feeds like RT.com imho which are vilified by the MSM.
We, the freethinkers, need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and find a way to collectively attack the liars.
The difference in this case, of course, is that no one’s going to kill Mr. Greenwald for publishing these cartoons. How very brave of you, in your Brazilian hideout.
Well, he *did publish one of the Mohammed cartoons.
But I take your point, in that I think publishing in solidarity when terrorists are killingcartoonists and journalists, and causing global self-censorship out of base fear, is the right thing to do. In 2006, vis-a-vis the Danish Cartoons, Glenn Greenwald agreed, saying: “As I’ve said before, I believe the press ought to publish those cartoons as a means of defending their right to publish ideas free of intimidation and attack.”
red herring.
I don’t know where people like you get off, Brian, sneering at someone like Glenn from the anonymity of the comment section. What, he hasn’t been brave enough for YOU? He has risked losing his freedom many times; he could very easily be in the same situation that Chelsea Manning or Julian Assange are in. He went up against the most powerful security agencies in the world, and he has spoken truth to very angry power again and again. The coward journalists of the MSM have accused him of crimes, including treason. Perhaps you should take a look at the statistics concerning the murders of journalists all over the world.
Since you seem to have this bravery test for others, why don’t you give us your real name and address and show us all the brave things you have done in the name of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
“He went up against the most powerful security agencies in the world, and he has spoken truth to very angry power again and again.”
And yet they haven’t had him killed, while supposedly ‘powerless’ nutters in France did kill all a load of cartoonists.
So no, Glenn Greenwald is not really brave, and he knows it.
So Western culture journalists depict a religious figure in a ‘blasphemous’ way, but if you are not a follower of that faith, is it really blasphemous…and even if you believe that yes indeed it is offensive…….but its okay to offend the rest of the sane world and chop off journalists heads on you tube videos, bomb subways and schools killing children, kidnap women and rape them, execute non believers…that is just fine…..most massive group of evil I have ever witnessed, just completely insane!
Glenn Greenwald just couldn’t wait to post those anti-Semitic cartoons. Being an anti-Semite, he wasted no chance to post those pictures to satisfy his inner delight. It is also interesting to note that Greenwald considers those who recruit for ISIS as not really being terrorists. Hence his “quotation marks”. Hizbollah is a terrorist organization and propagating for them by trying to air their terrorist network is against the law. That has nothing to do with free speech. Hizbollah solicits terrorism throughout the world. Greenwald has himself in the past noted that Islamofascist terrorists are really “freedom fighters” opposing “American tyranny”. Greenwald is a joke and the only way he got famous was by publishing illegally obtained classified information. Frankly he is no journalist and should be prosecuted for colluding with Edward Snowden in the theft of classified documents.
You, sir, are quite the humorist. This is gold:
Label an idea or communication “terrorist” and — voila! — it ceases to be speech! Neat trick, beloved by authoritarians everywhere.
” Being an anti-Semite, he wasted no chance to post those pictures to satisfy his inner delight. ”
Were the pictures ( cartoons ) ALL satirical depictions of Islam or the prophet Mohammad, all Al Qaeda would have to do is replace one single word “Semite” of your quote above with ” Islamist ” to make the same point.
This perhaps illustrates that you may have far more in common with AQ than you’ll ever know…
Do I want him executed and assassinated for being an anti-Semite? No. It is who he is. Get yourself some mental help.
Glenn is not an anti-semite; he is a “self-hating Jew.” Please use correct terminology.
” Glenn is not an anti-semite; he is a “self-hating Jew.” ”
Your comment reveals your absolute ignorance about the concept of ‘self-hatred ‘ and what it means to be a ‘ Jew ‘.
Spirited debate and objective and critical analysis and examination of positions and actions taken in response to, as well as in the initiation of, events that affect humanity as a whole and Jews in particular, are long-held traditions of the Jewish people although that is not to suggest that they have any monopoly thereof.
This debate, critical analysis and examination of positions does not exclude actions taken by members or communities of the Jewish faith, and is a resultant product of a long history fret with real existential challenges facing the community at one time, coupled with an age old tradition of emersion in Talmudic precepts. The practical implications imply that Jews, like all other communities, can be expected to have diametrically opposed positions on human events without either side being less or more of a Jew in so doing.
To suggest that to participate in a debate and take positions differing from yours constitutes self-hatred is to expose your lack of understanding of what it entails to love humanity as a whole; to love one’s own or to love oneself as an individual, where neither love necessarily expresses itself at the expense of any other.
So, I’ll say it in my broken Yiddish: don’t be a ‘ schmuck ‘.
I was kidding. I actually think Glenn likes himself just fine.
Do implications imply things, or is that redundant?
” Do implications imply things, or is that redundant? ”
Feel free to parse the words, letter by letter, and feel free to tear the syntax and grammar apart too if that makes you happy, Professor Higgins.
EnglishisasecondlanguagetomeandIdon’tgiveascrewifImangleit.I’dratherbespeakingmynativedialectXhosa…
” Do I want him executed and assassinated for being an anti-Semite? ”
Sassan the idiot, where did I ever say the rubbish that you attribute to me in the above quote?
I could care less who you assassinate or who assassinates you. Murders of any kind generally do not excite me.
You might want to slow down on the amphetamines though..
On how not to construct an argument, read Sassan’s above comments (at the very least, aspire to have a point).
I am guessing (hoping) that you were trying your sarcasm. If not, the comments by Mona and Pat B. should (hopefully) help you orient your moral and intellectual compass!!
A FRENCH SEPTEMBER 11TH?
Who ordered the attack against Charlie Hebdo?
by Thierry Meyssan
While many French react to the attack against Charlie Hebdo denouncing Islam and demonstrating in the streets, Thierry Meyssan points out that the jihadist interpretation is impossible. While it would be tempting for him to see it as an Al Qaeda or Daesh operation, he envisages another, much more dangerous hypothesis.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article186441.html
Glenn…outstanding piece. Peace
jfr
True that some cartoons he cited are merely offensive and insulting, serving no purpose. Not sure what Greenwald’s message is, if he is advocating anti-Semitic cartoons, but I don’t think Greenwald needs to worry that there is insufficient anti-Semitism. He is a simplifier from the left, encouraging the world to blame all Jews, in any country, even those who oppose Netanyahu’s policies. I suppose he thinks ethnic Jews have not been given a hard enough time. He’s not trying to find and target the more hidden root sources of these problems. The far left, like the far right, is dangerously biased and simplistic, lazy thinkers, irresponsible journalists.
Ah yes, liberal Zionists who pout over Netanyahu – – they who would prefer a kinder, gentler ethno-religious supremacy and apartheid.
You re-posted Jay’s words. Anti- semitism is purely a subjective idea? That Hitler was anti-Semitic is merely an opinion? The demonstration in NYC calling for the killing of all policemen was the healthy exercise of the freedom of speech? All police are the same, too? Interesting, what one is called online. But I looked up “Zionist,” and it turns out not to be an insult (neither is liberal). “Zionism: an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel” (Webster’s dictionary). I believe liberals have a much stronger desire to avoid force than the far right or far left does. I was born after Israel was established. I did not realize that “liberal Zionists” prefer a “kinder, gentler ethno-religious supremacy and apartheid”. Two separate states would be best. Here is a discussion of a 2013 Pew survey on American Jews: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/10/03/8-fascinating-trends-in-how-american-jews-think-about-israel/
Claudia: my cut ‘n paste function screwed up, and what I “quoted” above is not your words. I mean this:
————————————-
Ah yes, liberal Zionists who pout over Netanyahu – – they who would prefer a kinder, gentler ethno-religious supremacy and apartheid
They do. It is inherent in Zionism, which is a species of 19th century blood and soil nationalism. Problem is, there were already hundreds of thousands of indigenous Arab and other people on the coveted soil. Mark Braverman explains it well:
The rest of Braverman’s excellent essay, The Two State Illusion, Racism in Israel, and Jewish Hubris, here: http://markbraverman.org/2013/10/the-two-state-illusion-racism-in-israel-and-jewish-hubris/
The larger point being missed – the capricious nature of applying “free speech” rules and its impact on the future of a peaceful world!
Arbitrary application of “free speech” is not just in Paris, France. It is in the UK, US, AUS, … the same countries that lay claim to the ideals of open and democratic society. In these same places, cartoons can get you fired if you insult the assault on Gaza. Writing a severely critical message about cops in NY on twitter can get you arrested. Journalists can get fired for expressing views that someone else deems anti-semitic. And, the list goes on… and include more drastic “punishments” for the exercise of free speech.
The so-called non-democratic and non-secular world, looking at the level of hypocrisy on open display, has to conclude what? That democracy, free speech, secularism, tolerance, are simply a marketing tools?
Freedom and democratic means are ideals that we should all strive for. None of us in the West is anywhere near this goal – but it is difficult to win hearts and minds when the same ideals are lampooned by the actions of the very leaders that lay claim to it.
You really believe that losing a job and being arrested for using words that suggest plans to use violence against another person is the same as losing our life? Right now in Pakistan a woman has been sentenced to death for insulting Muhammad, you really feel that you are in the same boat as this woman? You who are exercising your free speech by wiring here? If you really feel that it is the same then I think you should find this poor woman and change places with her and spare her children from losing a mother.
The false equivalency argument is specious! The point being made is fundamental. While not all viewpoints are equally valid at the same time, “freedom” must guarantee their unhindered expression. If you believe in the relative argument that you are proposing, the is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Nonetheless, from a fundamental and philosophical viewpoint, I am afraid that you do not have an argument.
The media holds the line on 911 Truthers. The internet is on fire with 911 Truth films, but as far as the media is concerned Nano thermite doesn’t exist. I usually don’t talk about it so as not to get banned (self censorship). HuffPo and the Guardian don’t just ban stories, they ban comments about 911. The irony is that the things they want to keep secret are the things people simply will not stop talking about. How hard is it to do a story on Nano Thermite? A few mouse clicks?
CSPAN is the last bastion of quality reporting in the US Mainstream Media. They actually interviewed Richard Gage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zY9HfwzGPg
As to the U.S., we do have free speech in the above areas. It is legal to assail the assault on Gaza, and if you have in mind the firing of Steven Salaita from the University if Illinois for that “crime,” they know they’ll lose in court and are prepared to settle for $1 million.
One young man has been arrested for posting “put wings on pigs” on FB, but that will go nowhere because it is protected speech.
Finally, a journo getting fired because their boss deems a statement to be antisemitic doesn’t violate freedom of speech, which (with some inapplicable exceptions) only the government can infringe upon.
As of December 30th there were nine arrests in NY alone for alleged threats to police officers. I take it that you do not find any issues with the hypocrisy of selective arrests. The example you choose, the young man for his Facebook page, was followed by a former cop named Doug Humphrey who left a comment on his Facebook page, encouraging police to kill Dirosa. Doug Humphrey was not arrested. I suppose you find that acceptable. Or, perhaps something that can be just excused – an aberration. There are far too many of these aberrations for my sensible view of “freedom”.
It is perhaps emotionally sedative to believe that freedom of speech can be narrowly defined so as to not shake ones foundation of their supposed belief in the system. However, the lives of far too many people has been disturbed as a results of mere exercise of “free thought” – at least for my taste.
Left or right does not define a person’s intellectual foundation. Consistency in the philosophical underpinnings of their arguments does.
I suppose the innocent individuals in Guantanamo will eventually be freed and then it will all be okay with you?
If they are arresting many individuals where it is obvious the speech is protected, they can be sued for civil rights violations. But if some of these were unprotected threats, then that’s what they were. It seems to me, most of these involved legal speech: http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/12/former-cop-not-arrested-asking-police-facebook-kill-cop-critic/
Not exactly. He admonished cops to kill Dirosa if Dirosa approached them. The implication is that Dirosa would be intending to kill them. Either way, what Humphrey said is protected speech.
If you believe in freedom of expression, the statements of the cop as well as the person who was arrested for “pigs on wings” are protected. I do believe both were protected speech – it is that simple.
The other extreme choice is that you don’t believe in free expression – I don’t think that is the case.
The “in-between” case is the one you appear to be dismissive about. Statements of the form “can be sued for civil rights violations” or clinging to the conditional “if Dirosa approached them” are meaningless in practice. In the first case, here is one example (and there are many): Al Arian (I would guess you are familiar with his case) spent a good seven years in jail, or under arrest, after the prosecutors failed to convict him of any crime. How is “suing for civil rights violations” going to help him? In the second case, as I stated earlier, there is no need to appeal to semantic pretzel (“… approached them”) – speech is protected!
Free speech has taken, and continues to take, a sever pounding right here at home – from both the left and the right, liberal and conservative. Undisciplined, dismissive, uncritical thinking tainted with ideological hues has left us lost in the fog of our own making.
It is not that simple – one cannot simply sue problems of this magnitude away with honestly acknowledging their depth first.
No, conditional statements are not “remotely” meaningless in practice. “Go shoot Dirosa” is a very different statement than “If Dirosa approaches you shoot him.” Especially if the odds of Dirosa approaching a cop reading the FB entry are as tiny as they are. In other words, this isn’t a threat; it’s hyperbole.
In any event, I am applying my informed understanding of first amendment case law to these situations. The jurisprudence of language that is an unprotected threat is not entirely settled, and is about to be ruled on by the Supreme Court. Read about it in WaPo: “Supreme Court struggles with defining, prosecuting threats on social media” here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-struggles-with-defining-prosecuting-threats-on-social-media/2014/12/01/26f756ac-7993-11e4-9a27-6fdbc612bff8_story.html
Thank you Mona for the link to WashPo below. I am aware of the historical as well as the philosophical foundations of freedom of expression. I appreciate the nuances involved in restricting this important right and the role the courts have played in creating a balance. Yet, considering the vast number of cases of overreach by government or government funded entities, as documented by the ACLU, and the anecdotal evidence I suggested regarding the case of Mr. Al Arian, it is disturbing to see my friends on the left (and the right) appear to be happy with bandaid lawsuits seemingly meant to address the vast government overreach in restricting expression of thought.
As Mr. Snowden has now shown and Mr. Greenwald has written about, the vast overreach into our thoughts is approaching “preemptive” dimensions. If we can be arrested for an oblique comment today – like the person who gets arrested for a Facebook post – we can get arrested in the near future for the potential “inference” from our online data without having to say anything. This is but a symptom of a larger problem. If the body intellect among us can see the cure as “well sue them!”, then it is truly a sad place we are in.
from the Guardian: According to French magazine Le Parisien, security at Flammarion has been reinforced because of the controversial book’s release…
The book being a fictional account about Muslims winning the 2002 French election. Ironic, maybe?
“Soumission” by Michel Houllebecq. I won’t be reading it because I don’t like that author but a friend whose judgment I trust told me it’s a biting criticism not of islam but of the French people’s servility towards authority. But one can understand the security because of the theme (the story plays in 2022, not 2002 by the way) and the author’s pro-Israel views.
Well then Mr Greenwald, following your logic, the inevitable question must be asked……WHY is there so much “unity” in actively disliking muslims/islam? It surely isn’t racism, because islam is not even remotely confined to a single race. Balkans, arabs, africans, indonesians, asians….all comprise islam in very large numbers and in most cases are NOT a minority in their respective lands…..so WHAT drives the unity in piling on against islam/muslims?
Could it possibly be that after 1300 years of constant warfare, intolerance, supremacism, and religious colonialism/expansionism that this is the meager measure of pushback that the rest of humanity is willing to engage in on their own behalf?
Let me tweak that for you:
Does that seem sensible to you?
So, in the paper’s rightful indulgence in free speech, did the editors ever discuss, given the depictions […] what repercussions the depictions might have and what the implications were for the safety of human lives on their payrolls that were senselessly lost? — Pat B.
I don’t know what was discussed in the inner sanctums of CH, but the following editorial piece, written by Olivier Cyran on December 5, 2013 examines the evolution of CH from the perspective of a former employee. An evolution he contends puts them at one with the racists in France:
“Charlie Hebdo”, not racist? If you say so…
http://posthypnotic.randomstatic.net/charliehebdo/Charlie_Hebdo_article%2011.htm
It’s a lengthy piece that, to my eyes, reads a lot like the arguments/discussions that Greenwald has had with the new atheists embodied by Bill Maher, Sam Harris et al. While I don’t necessarily buy everything inherent to this piece, it again emphasizes the importance of putting events into context: not only that of freedom of speech and historical perspective but also that of more current evolution in the French polity wrt racism and, perhaos, other “isms”. It’s a long, but enlightening read.
That’s all fine and good, except there is one minor, teensy weensy detail…….MUSLIM IS NOT A RACE. ISLAM IS NOT A RACE. It is not genetic. You are not born a muslim (in science and any sane person’s world). You may not have any choice in the matter as a child born into a muslim society until later in life when the brainwashing is beyond the reach of most people to undo. But you still have a brain, and you still have a choice, whether you want it or not.
Islam is an all-encompassing ideology far more expansive than any other hideous and murderous ideology ever invented since…german national socialism, Leninism, Maoism, japanese imperialism, you name it, take the most hideous of the “accepted” villainous ideologies of any era and none of them even comes close to the scope of Islam. None of them achieved 99% elimination of ideological “outsiders” as islam has done across vast lands that once were among the most diverse in the world (and so-called liberals such as Greenwald portend to cherish diversity don’t they?).
Islam is a despicable and soul-crushing oppressor of humanity, liberty, and the individual. There ARE things in this world which must be FOUGHT. There ARE times when a stand must be taken and you cannot be hesitant, or worse, crippled, by ambivalency of if maybe somewhere out there your efforts may not be 100% perfectly in the right 100% of the time.
Islam does not need to be eradicated. it needs to be stopped, contained, and permitted to sow its own destruction at its own hands. The islamic world has been in a state of constant fighting and “lesser” jihad since DAY ONE 1300 years ago. The only thing that has changed is the success of a campaign that began sometime in the early to mid 20th century following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire to focus the attention away from “near enemies” to “far enemies”.
Our idiotic excuse-making for these people and our governments’ insatiable appetite for “victims” (real or fabricated) to pander to in a bid for ever more power over the populace and to take ever increasing cuts of their earnings has done at least as much to enable the success of this islamic campaign as any strategy they could have ever implemented.
” Islam is a despicable and soul-crushing oppressor of humanity, liberty, and the individual. There ARE things in this world which must be FOUGHT. ”
Your palpable detestation of Islam more than qualifies you to answer this question: what is it in your mind that makes Islam “…a despicable and soul-crushing oppressor of humanity, liberty, and the individual. ” ?
Islam functions as a signifier for race; else it would be incoherent to endorse profiling Muslims, as many do, including Sam Harris. Nesrine Malik gets to the heart of the matter in a Guardian column:
Animus against Muslims based on their “religious and cultural identity” is a pretty good proxy for racism.
Thanks Pedinska for this. It is truly a window through which an outsider like myself, uninitiated and unfamiliar with the culture of post 1789 revolutionary France, can at least peek into the spirited dialogues that took place behind the scenes.
This is both enlightening and informational, providing insight into other possible dimensions that may have been driving factors behind the infamous cartoon(s), purportedly driven on the surface, by an obsession with Islam-targeting free speech.
Thanks for posting this Pedinska. I read it carefully once, and it does significantly challenge the defenses I’ve been offering for Charlie Hebdo. I’ll want to ponder and re-read.
“Mocking Judaism, Jews and/or Israel is something they will rarely (if ever) do.”
Charlie Hebdo? Are you kidding? That’s simply untrue.Will this one do? http://forward.com/articles/212292/why-charlie-hebdo-must-be-free-to-offend-all-ev/
Or would one prefer this one? http://anniebannie.net/2014/07/21/la-situation-a-gaza-par-charb-charlie-hebdo/
Is it too much to ask that such an accusation – against the dead, who cannot respond – be factchecked by someone who routinely accuses others of sloppy reporting? 30 seconds of Google will do.
“the vast bulk of their attacks are reserved for Islam and Muslims, not Judaism and Jews.”
The vast bulk of their attacks are reserved for the far-right Front National, with an honorable mention for all other politicians who bash minorities.
“parody, free speech and secular atheism are the pretexts; anti-Muslim messaging is the primary goal and the outcome.”
Absolute tripe. Read the magazine before writing this stuff. Charlie Hebdo was pro-immigration, pro-Palestinian, pro-anyone who is oppressed, and anti-power.
“And this messaging – this special affection for offensive anti-Islam speech – just so happens to coincide with, to feed, the militaristic foreign policy agenda of their governments and culture.”
You mean the militaristic foreign policy agenda they have always virulently opposed?
“To see how true that is, consider the fact that Charlie Hebdo – the “equal opportunity” offenders and defenders of all types of offensive speech – fired one of their writers in 2009 for writing a sentence some said was anti-Semitic.”
Indeed, the senior editor said it was anti-semitic, and the judge to whom the fired cartoonist referred the case threw the argument out and awarded damages. I know fact-checking is difficult in French, but there’s Google translate. The senior editor in question was called Philippe Val, and he was a close friend of then-president Nicolas Sarkozy. The fired cartoonist was named Siné and the offending sentence – which passed the editor’s desk at first – was very innocuous by Charlie Hebdo standards: regarding Sarkozy’s son’s betrothal to a rich heiress (who happened to be Jewish) he simply wrote “that should get him started in life”. Sarkozy, who often used his influence to punish or reward journalists, through Val demanded an apology which Siné refused to give. Val then fired him, using the excuse of anti-semitism, and was later promoted by his good friend Sarkozy to the prestigious directorship of France Inter. All of this says a lot about the press corruption that existed in the Sarkozy era but no more reflects on Charlie Hebdo’s later editor Charb, who was murdered, than the Holocaust reflects on Angela Merkel. At the very least Glenn should have fact-checked whether any of the present (or recently murdered) Charlie staff were in any way implicated. They weren’t. And mockery of Jews had nothing to do with it.
And as for the distasteful cartoon about Boko Haram, please remember that Charlie Hebdo was publishing for its own, rather small, far-left readership and that its trademark was to shock everyone, including their own, including themselves. Political correctness of any sort was anathema to them. Yes, the cartoon is shocking to progressives – that was precisely the point. To never be comfortable in your own ideology.
I don’t understand all the fuss. This sort of thing happens all the time in the US. Sandy Hook, Columbine, Virginia Tech and so forth and so on.
That’s not even a patch on what happens in Iraq, Libya or Syria. Entire wedding parties have been wipe out in Pakistan and Afghanistan. When thousands of Iraqis people were being killed monthly in bombings, the Western media barely mentioned it. Say, didn’t we train these people in order to destabilize Assad?
Ooops?
Haven’t had time to catch up on all comment additions, so apologies if this has already been noted elsewhere below in the thread:
Ultra-Orthodox Jewish Newspaper Edits Female World Leaders Out of Charlie Hebdo March
http://www.mediaite.com/online/ultra-orthodox-jewish-newspaper-edits-female-world-leaders-out-of-charlie-hebdo-march/
Whatever you may think of the, ahem, *stagecraft of this particular march, it does seem more than a bit egregious to use your religious beliefs to edit women completely out of the picture. :-s
Isn’t that “bearing false witness” or some such thing? Maybe they’re not neighbors?
I wonder if that paper was around in Golda Meir’s day.
Yeah, that would have taken selective editing to an entirely new era. :-s
This is the thing, Islam, Christianity, Judaism….it is all the SAME THING. Three versions of the same story. Two being “updated” revisions of the original (Judaism). Only christianity and judaism seem to have, for the most part, allowed their archaic practices to expire from mainstream society. The difference being the state of Israel actively supports the few thousand ultra-orthodox (aka BACKWARDS) among them out of mortal fear of “losing their culture” entirely. There are plenty of Jews who are fervently jewish and pro-israel who despise the practice of subsidizing the orthodox within israel with tax money. This does not happen at all in western lands for christians. You want to live like 17th century Salem, Massachusetts? Then you go out to the middle of nowhere and you do it on your own dime.
I think that Netanyahu and friends support them and allow them to build on contested land partly for petty political reasons, thus creating more danger in the world. The number and political power of Orthodox Jews in Israel has increased in recent years, with immigration from Russia and the U.S. I doubt the intensity of Netanyahu’s religious fervor concerning the lands. If the Palestinians made some concessions, such as not assigning the Elders of Zion in its public schools, Netanyahu might make some, too. But, isn’t there a candidate now who wants to declare Israel a Jewish state?
When practicing law with a Certain Someone, we had a couple of Orthodox clients. I could not meet with them, because you see, they felt they could not say naughty words in my vaginal presence, and that was too confining.
Netanyahu was in the march. The world leaders in front of the camera all holding hands. This is like a pro-government demonstration. It is so nice to see the heads of government all showing how interchangeable they all are.
It would be insulting to the intelligence of the Charlie Hebdo staff for one not to assume that they must have known of the likelihood of extreme arousal of emotion of some Moslems by the cartoon depicting Mohammed as whatever ( have not seen the cartoon ), and how that emotion might have found expression, especially given the fact that most Moslems in that country are not molded from the native stalk of Voltaire that embraces satire without a second thought…
So, in the paper’s rightful indulgence in free speech, did the editors ever discuss, given the depictions – not of Islam as many claim but of the Prophet himself who may be held in much higher esteem by Moslems than the religion itself – what repercussions the depictions might have and what the implications were for the safety of human lives on their payrolls that were senselessly lost?
I guess I am asking if cartoonists in their rightful exercise of free speech have any responsibility at all to the sad, unjustifiable but nevertheless very real repercussions that may flow from their exercise of free speech. And how they balance that responsibility with their free speech rights.
I cannot imagine what Moslems feel. As an unrepentant agnostic, I will have nothing to do with Islam, Christianity, Judaism, NSA Christianity, Hinduism, Umbandisim, Maqumbism, Voodooism, Buddhism and the rest of it…But I know a little about human emotion.
The editor Charb – against whom the Al Qaeda fatwa was decreed – perhaps did not suspect innocents would be killed alongside himself, but he did know the possible repercussions for himself and said he’d rather die standing than live on his knees.
Thanks. I can only wish now, too late of course, that he had at least inquired from the other 11 that died along with him, if they were also willing to ‘die standing’ too. Maybe they would have chosen that route also; but maybe not…
There was a fatwa against him. The offices of Charlie Hebdo had been firebombed. They were under permanent (but insufficient) police protection. There is no way they could have been unaware of the danger.
Thanks again. I was aware of the fatwa against him and of the (inadequate ) police protection and yes, you are very correct in saying there is no way they could not have been aware.
But the fatwa had been pronounced not against the entire staff, as I understand it, and so, human nature being what it is, it is not impossible that, although the staff may have been aware of the danger, they may have believed that the threats were directed exclusively at Charlie and not at the rest of the staff, and may have thus enjoyed a false sense of complacent security. That is an unknowable now of course since they are no longer here with us.
There’s no reply button below your last comment (about the staff perhaps having false complacency). I don’t think there’s any possibility of that because the fatwa was by Al Qaeda and Al Qaeda does not use snipers nor take care to spare bystanders. The main danger they probably saw was a bomb. However, one may feel pity for the cleaning lady who may not have been able to find a safer job and the policemen who didn’t choose their assignment.
Tragic. So tragic. Thanks for your thoughtful responses.
Excellent article.
This is something that bothered me from a few years ack during the whole “publish a Mohamed cartoond day” internet thing.
Why engage in the offending act just to show free speech solidarity? If the govt. banned the KKK from marhcing, I’d say it is wrong and they have the right to march, but I won’t be wearing a white hod and joining…unless I actually DO agree with their ideas.
Also, isn’t France one of those “ban the swastika/Nazi symbols” countries? Who are they to talk about free speech.
The cartoons presented do not mock Judaism or any hypocrisy within Judaism and the behavior of Jews. They just present age old stereotypes and political bias. Nothing exceptional or intelligent in any of them. But they have the right to their views. I am an American born Jew who is atheist.
There is nothing brave or necessary about this article and its cartoons.
I haven’t read about any death threats to Greenwald or warnings of destruction for The Intercept’s offices from radical Zionists. Greenwald does not even bother to understand the context of the Boko Haram cartoon (it slams the typical Frenchman’s impression of any woman of African descent) or take into consideration that both his Charlies Hebdo examples have a second degree that only one or two of his selections can barely muster. The rest are just crudely racist caricatures.
If there is a problem with certain Jewish elements suppressing free speech in America, then why can someone like Sam Harris not point out the same for Islam? If a religion is nothing more or less than the actions of its adherents, why can we not criticize the lack of moderately reforming forces in Islam? We do the same for Christian denominations and Judaism without people dying. Why are all not open to Greenwald’s criticism?
Since Glenn posted this Molly Ivins quote in his twitter feed…
—–
“There are two kinds of humor. One kind that makes us chuckle about our foibles and our shared humanity. The other kind holds people up to public contempt and ridicule — that’s what I do. Satire is traditionally the weapon of the powerless against the powerful. I only aim at the powerful. When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel — it’s vulgar.” – Molly Ivins
—–
….I thought I might bring my question to this thread.
Who is weak enough to satirize Islam?
Are atheists weak enough?
Islam is massively powerful in many parts of the world — it is the globe’s 2nd largest religion.
I guess Monty Python should not have produced “Every Sperm is Sacred,” given that Catholics were an oppressed minority vis-a-vis the Brits.
From Pedinska’s link above, a former employee of Charlie documenting how it changed after 9/11
“Weak enough” is pure straw. Vulgarity is a condition.
The writer goes on to say:
I think Olivier Cyran’s perspective is worth your time.
I like the principled points about (the hypocrisy re:) the “free speech” narrative.
Would have liked the article even more if criticizing the most nefarious religion of them all, i.e. statolatry, had been included as the greatest taboo of all.
What I really dislike about these kind of articles is the implicit acceptance of the pro-War on Terror vs. the anti-War on Terror framework, when Islam is concerned. I find myself in agreement – if only this one time – with the malevolentists of the NeoCon persuation, who have over the years, argued that, “this (bombing, killing, persecuting, etcetera..) is NOT a war against Islam”. And indeed it isn’t. It also is NOT a war on terror, but wars to spread terror and in the meantime, expand the category “terrorist” to conveniently include (you wait and see) anyone who is planning to resist the managerial state running his life.
Back to Islam, real Islam for a change.
Over here, in the Netherlands, many people are fed up with Islamic doctrine and the obvious negative impact it has on our inner cities. This has nothing to do with “speech” or “phobia” and all kinds of abstract categories fit for the chattering classes. I reckon Mr. Greenwald has never seen neighbourhoods occupied and dominated by Muslims, but in Amsterdam, some blocks away from the museums, where one can shed one’s “tourist view” of the world, real life rears its ugly head. People who write abstract pieces like these also seem to lack in actual knowledge about what Islamic doctrine really is. Or if they have made some study of it, the knowledge never seems to inform the kinds of opinions typically voiced in their articles. Perhaps they don’t really care, and I can’t blame them. Studying a doctrine of hate is no uplifting matter, so keep at it. Write about speech and keep pointing at the hypocrites. You’re doing a good job.
Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Richard
Mr. Greenwald implies the Constitution provides unlimited free speech rights. It does not. As is routinely said, “You cannot yell fire in a crowed theater.” The examples of his Muslim victims being jailed for posting videos and cartoons as examples of free speech is off base. Giving aid and comfort to groups engaged in advancing violent, murderous terror campaigns against the US is illegal and not protected as free speech. However, I recommend Greenwald visit several of our prominent university campuses and observe for a week or two. There he will find overt constrictions on free speech masquerading as prohibiting “hate speech,” and banned political activity if it goes against the liberal-socialist mantra imposed on campus. He will find Conservatives are being routinely prevented to express their political beliefs in the name of ridding the campus of hate and intolerance.
Well, in fairness, the distinction between conservative political expression and hate/intolerance can be extremely fine, when it is perceptible at all.
You’re a self-pitying yawper from the ruling class, and as such, your concerns ring completely hollow. As the author already explained, a Muslim who can in any way possible be construed as supporting terror, even if he’s just criticizing Israeli policies, will have the force of government working against him. When Ann Coulter shows up at a university campus and calls Arabs “camel jockeys,” people will protest her hate speech. If you can’t even grasp this basic difference, you will obviously never grasp the difference between why powerless people engage in terrorism, and powerful governemnts simply prevent your concerns from ever seeing the light of day. Instead of your fantasy tour of the oppressive campuses you detest (maybe a professor failed you somewhere along the line), try taking a tour of the Middle East and see what real people are going through every day outside of your privileged white world.
“…why powerless people engage in terrorism…”
I’m sure it will be comforting news to the thousands of non-Muslim women being held as sex slaves by the Islamic State that their captors are ‘powerless’. Or to the 2,000 civilians just murdered by Boko Haram that the people who shot them were powerless. Or to the Jewish shoppers murdered in Paris that they were the victim of ‘powerless’ bullets. The list could go on and on, and take in millions of people in numerous countries afflicted by these ‘powerless’ terrorists you speak of.
Many Muslims are powerless, but Islam itself is a very powerful religion, and Islamic extremists are very powerful people, supported by great wealth and the power of murder, torture and intimidation. It is disingenuous to elide powerful violent Islamists with the least powerful Muslims, many of whom are oppressed precisely by their brethren. The vast majority of Muslims who have been killed in the world in the past couple of decades have been murdered by Islamist terrorists – the same people you grotesquely call ‘powerless’.
As is routinely said, “You cannot yell fire in a crowed theater.”
And almost uniformly misunderstood and misused:
It’s Time to Stop Using the ‘Fire in a Crowded Theater’ Quote
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/
Bless you and Bless free speech!!
Well said and written…hope more journalist like you will have the courage to deliver REAL free speech!
These caricatures are contentually ridiculously wrong. And just propaganda instead of a deep (and therefore stinging) criticism, which a good caricature delievers. But they should be, as long as they don’t insult concrete persons or call for criminal acts, part of the liberty (freedom is another thing) of speech.
Liberty is also the liberty of being one-sided and dumb. As long as you respect the individual rights of everyone (!) else, not just of certain groups etc.
Fascinating article. People always forget those Jewish bombings of cartoonists. Oh, and remember that time Salman Rushdie had to hide from those pernicious jews and had his editor killed? NO? Me neither. Must be the Jewish media covering it up!
I’m not sure if Mr. Greenwald is really quite as illogical as this article makes him seem or if he is striving for a controversy like Snowden again, to bring himself back into relevance. What is clear is that equating self censorship and media bias with murder is unnecessarily provocative at best… which if I’m not mistaken, Glenn may want to criminalize his own behavior, here.
Glenn Greenwald you have absolutely nailed it with this erudite article.
The duplicity being played out since the Charlie Hebdo incident is more of the same in the mythical arena that is democracy and human rights. It’s quite simply a concept that is not open to all, given the seats of power and ethnocentrism.
Samuel P. Huntington’s authoritative piece ‘The Clash of Civilizations’ never seems to falter in its poignancy, that the evolution of conflict will be not be primarily ideological or economic but centred around cultural entities.
Um, people might still be a little sensitive to that whole thing called the Holocaust?
A battle rages among liberal and left-tilting people over the Charlie Hebdo cartoons that blaspheme Mohammed. For some, CH is wrong to lampoon a religious figure held sacred by an oppressed minority; to do so constitutes “punching down.” Moreover, many on the left have entirely misinterpreted some CH cartoons, due to a lack of familiarity with: idiomatic French, CH’s usual MO, French politics, and also the long tradition of a French culture that considers aggressive secularism necessary for their “fraternite.” (3 citations omitted b/c TI software sucks.)
Many leftist Americans are parsing the CH cartoons thru the lens of standard right-wing and Zionist Islamophobia. They lack all understanding that the French tradition of anti-religion and blasphemy is in the political DNA of the country of 1789, Voltaire and Diderot. To the French — and CB is written by and for the French — anti-religion and blasphemy are part of their anarchist cri de coeur: “Ni Dieu, ni maître!”
For the French, with so many stories in the news about bad acts by Muslim extremists, it would be positively unFrench not to apply their legendary contempt for religion to Islam. I wouldn’t, because I’m American and understand, as many of us do, that we only “punch up.” But CB doesn’t see it that way when it comes to mocking religion. Any religion.
For CH, there is no contradiction between strongly opposing discrimination against Arabs and Muslims, as it does, on the one hand, and ridiculing one of the world’s great religions, Islam, as they also do. Muslims may see a huge contradiction; we non-Muslim left-wing Yanks may see it as well. So then let’s dialogue with CH about that, but let us not attribute to it racism and ugliness that it does not — emphatically does not — stand for. They just lost TWELVE of their friends and colleagues, and misunderstanding from those who should support them is, at best, a cruel irony.
Finally, Charlie Hebdo suddenly has some strange new friends, for a magazine as far left as it has always been. Very strange indeed. That’s because a lot of Zionists, fascists and wingnuts are also misreading the magazine — or at least exploiting its tragedy for their own vile ends. I’ll let a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist who survived, Bernard Holtrop — whose pen name is Willem — give the reader a sense of how CB feels about these folks:
“We vomit on all these people who suddenly say they are our friends.”
Mona, first, thanks for indulging my punk ass back there. thought i’d give you a break from Craig.
OK, but what’s the political content? Oppressed in what way?
For example, this CH cartoon is about something specific.
https://twitter.com/JustinRaimondo/status/554813490452389889/photo/1
Keep in mind Sisi’s thugs violently murdered those peaceful demonstrators. The Koran did not protect them from real live bullets. Sisi violently crushed their fledgling democracy. And he just happens to be the latest autocratic darling of the West.
People are dead. What’s understood seems a lot less pertinent than how it’s understood. And racism on the liberal left is generally an unconscious or sublimated affair. Liberals are about institutions. Prison density in America’s “blue states” for example. A banal nightmare. 60% to 70% of France’s prison population is categorized as “Muslim”.
I agree some criticism from the left has the job description of a cartoonist essentially confused. They’re not in the ‘how’ business. The good ones ain’t, anyway.
That’s right. The atheist in me totally gets what Charlie Hebdo is saying: “Listen you dumb fucks, your holy book and god ain’t gonna save you. To defeat a Sisi you’re gonna need lotsa bullets.”
A battle rages among liberal and left-tilting people over the Charlie Hebdo cartoons that blaspheme Mohammed. For some, CH is wrong to lampoon a religious figure held sacred by an oppressed minority; to do so constitutes “punching down.” Moreover, many on the left have entirely misinterpreted some CH cartoons, due to a lack of familiarity with: idiomatic French, CH’s usual MO, French politics, and also the long tradition of a French culture that considers aggressive secularism necessary for their “fraternite.” (See http://t.co/mkDIDGuifE & http://t.co/dWmGmXgaZ4 & http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/11/1356945/-On-not-understanding-Charlie-Why-many-smart-people-are-getting-it-wrong#pq=dbW8fJ )
Many leftist Americans are parsing the CH cartoons thru the lens of standard right-wing and Zionist Islamophobia. They lack all understanding that the French tradition of anti-religion and blasphemy is in the political DNA of the country of 1789, Voltaire and Diderot. To the French — and CB is written by and for the French — anti-religion and blasphemy are part of their anarchist cri de coeur: “Ni Dieu, ni maître!”
For the French, with so many stories in the news about bad acts by Muslim extremists, it would be positively unFrench not to apply their legendary contempt for religion to Islam. I wouldn’t, because I’m American and understand, as many of us do, that we only “punch up.” But CB doesn’t see it that way when it comes to mocking religion. Any religion.
For CH, there is no contradiction between strongly opposing discrimination against Arabs and Muslims, as it does, on the one hand, and ridiculing one of the world’s great religions, Islam, as they also do. Muslims may see a huge contradiction; we non-Muslim left-wing Yanks may see it as well. So then let’s dialogue with CH about that, but let us not attribute to it racism and ugliness that it does not — emphatically does not — stand for. They just lost TWELVE of their friends and colleagues, and misunderstanding from those who should support them is, at best, a cruel irony.
Finally, Charlie Hebdo suddenly has some strange new friends, for a magazine as far left as it has always been. Very strange indeed. That’s because a lot of Zionists, fascists and wingnuts are also misreading the magazine — or at least exploiting its tragedy for their own vile ends. I’ll let a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist who survived, Bernard Holtrop — whose pen name is Willem — give the reader a sense of how CB feels about these folks:
“We vomit on all these people who suddenly say they are our friends.”
The thing that makes me saddest is that ALL of the Jewish people I knew growing up were completely committed to social justice and I literally never even knew that the other right wing Jewish people existed. But I guess all religions have their extremists. When you live in New York City, you interact with everyone. It can be a hundred different nationalities and religions in a day. We interact with the mainstream each day of eve group each day and the extremists are just that…extremist.
I’ll never forget the KKK coming up to march in NYC in the early 2000’s. There were 3 KKK guys and 3,000 protesters. People were very excited to see the tip of the KKK white hat. It was the stuff of legend. Finally, the police had to escort them from the location, before there was the riot. Prior to 2001, Muslims had no problem in America. We really need to make sure we don’t fall for the divide and conquer routine, that the English perfected so well. We are a very diverse country and we are one country.
“We really need to make sure we don’t fall for the divide and conquer routine, that the English perfected so well. We are a very diverse country and we are one country.”
Yes, WE are. But the establishment (the vast swathes of those used as puppets by the elite) is a facet of a criminal, looting enterprise that uses every means to divide us as a means of distraction, thus we end up saying the battle is between (for example) right-wing anti-feminist white men (and those who love them) and left-wing feminist black women (and those who love them), instead of seeing that all resources all over the world are owned and controlled by the ruling class, and that this is defended by the State (law and police) without any redeeming reference at all to social injustice – indeed the only relevance for the duped establishment are distortions employed for their value as a tool for (as you say) ‘divide and conquer’ exploitation.
We are fighting among ourselves, horizontally, when we should be looking up to the vertical threat of greed and power which disenfranchises ALL the non-elite.
Yup, AG14 and Cindy –
The elites of TPTB or whatever — have definitely been promoting the “divide and conquer.” The problem is: how do we break through this and unite/
Maybe Marxist thought should be a serious part of the high school curriculum here in the U.S. Problem is, in some states, curriculum is going in the opposite direction. Religion, with a few exceptions (and celebrities and smart phones) are the opiate of the people.
Ich habe nicht die Französische Zeitung Link zu verstehen.
Hi muntaba,
Eh…my Xhosa is a little rusty, sorry. Would you mind saying that in English?
Michael Brenner:
“The killers’ motivations were those of religious fanatics. In fact, they were at once religious and political. At the time of the elder Kouachi’s conviction in 2005 for facilitating the trafficking of French Muslims to fight in Iraq against the Americans, he stated that he had been deeply offended by the pictures from Abu Ghraib depicting American soldiers humiliating Muslims. That aggravated his hostility toward the invasion and occupation of both Iraq and Afghanistan set against the backdrop of Washington’s unrestrained backing for Israel’s abuse of the Palestinians. A similar avowal came from those English Muslims responsible for the London subway bombings. This aspect of the Paris affair has been slighted in most media coverage. Mentioned in initial dispatches, it has disappeared from The New York Times coverage among other news outlets…”
The significance of this story is not its verifiability; it is the role it is playing in an apparent campaign to use the Paris killings to validate and to sustain a certain narrative about the ‘War on Terror.’ The narrative’s core precepts are readily recognizable: ‘We face a massive terrorist threat from al-Qaeda and now ISIL. They are powerful, well-organized, have a global reach, and are targeting the United States and its allies. They hate us because we embody freedom, tolerance, and democracy. Our military and political actions in the Islamic world have nothing to do with the great animosity they have toward us. We must be vigilant and we must take the initiative in “crushing” these threats. Extra-judicial assassinations like that of Awlaki are an essential ingredient of American strategy. This WOT must go inexorably until the threat of further terrorist acts like Paris is eradicated.'”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-brenner/paris-and-the-war-on-terr_b_6456226.html
Thanks Cindy – the summation of Brenner’s article:
“Paris does not inaugurate a “new era of Terrorism.” It changes absolutely nothing in the big picture of Islamic terrorism or Middle East politics or American/Western policy orientations. Outside of France, everything is pretty much as before. That includes perpetuation of the fables and fantasies that are the enemy of sound and sensible policies.”
Isn’t it sort of ‘blasphemy’ to verbally threaten the US president with murder? That’s “the president” in the abstract, it doesn’t refer to a specific person. Apparently it’s taboo, as though the president is specially exempt from certain speech, just like the Prophet is supposed to be specially exempt from insults in Islam. Why, exactly, is free speech not allowed to threaten this president, this entirely abstracted individual? And why does the US allocate free speech ‘zones’? Isn’t that actually absurd, if free speech is sacrosanct? If the issue is there should be no restriction on free speech, why does the US make glaring exceptions as to what and where things may be said about the leader? Doesn’t that indicate hypocrisy in this area? Is the State actually a secular religion disguised as democracy?
No.
Why is it not permitted? Is the president special in some way?
Yes.
Hi Cindy, My father worked back-up secret service protection. A specific threat against the President will be investigated as a precautionary measure and then determined if it is legitimate. If the President is on location, everybody gets a little more jumpy. This is where the training comes in. You are supposed to look for threats, but not overreact.
The President of the United States is considered the head of the entire (let’s say Western world). Even if they don’t particularly care for the current President, the stock market would drop dramatically…and they care about that. A threat against Jesus, who is long dead, is very different than a threat against a current political leader. As corrupt and crazy as everything is right now…they don’t want upheaval. I know that much.
Thanks for the response. Personally I don’t want to insult the Prophet OR wish violence on anyone at all – I find even fake violence repulsive, in point of fact – I just thought the parallel was worth mentioning.
I’m a Zen Buddhist with ‘issues’ about politics which this site has helped me work through, and although I love my country and see the practical side of what you’re saying, there still seems to be a self-blinding institutionalized egotism that America resists undoing.
When he is black he is beyond simply “special”. Apparently he is then unquestionable.
No one threatened Mohammed in any of the cartoons I saw. Threatening harm should be prohibited. lampooning hypocrisy of the president or any head of state or religious figure should be perfectly acceptable and in fact there is nothing in the Koran about blaspheming. There is plenty in the Christian and Jewish bibles against it.
Just wanted to say that if you think that the cartoon is mocking the African sex slaves of Boko Haram, you have not understood the cartoon or the context. But I’ve seen this happen a lot regarding Charlie Hebdo cartoons. If the context is not understood, the cartoons seem much more offensive. The French also have this concept of “second degré” which is not well known and a lot of people seem to take their cartoons at face value. That is a mistake.
The cover is composed of two new stories that came about the same time in France: reducing social benefits in France and the Boko Haram kidnapping. The cartoon takes an absurd point-of-view, using Boko Haram sex slaves acting out the welfare queen stereotype, which in turn parodies the absurdity of the welfare queen stereotype. They actually want to ridicule the people who criticize these so called “welfare queens” by extreming it to the absurd, as immigrant women in France are more likely to come from harsher backgrounds and be in need of the welfare benefits, than trying to “game the wefare system”.
So many comments, not sure anyone will ever get to read this but hey – I tried.
I saw it, thanks for your perspective.
Yes! Right on the mark! Merging two news stories into one cartoon is something Charlie Hebdo has often done.
I’d say tomorrow’s Charlie Hebdo cover is genius: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/01/12/hayat-boumeddiene-amedy-couilbaly-paris-terror-attacks/21621219/
“Newsworthy” even. Thanks for sharing that link.
Mr. Greenwald, you’re missing the point. Charlie Hebdo were a bunch of assholes, but they didn’t deserve to be murdered, and this is not a case where blaming the victim is appropriate. Publishing those cartoons widely is a great way to say fuck you to the murderers and their supporters.
more on the failures of liberalism re: CharlieHebdo
first, Corey Oakley on chauvinism and amnesia (agnosia?)
http://redflag.org.au/article/charlie-hebdo-and-hypocrisy-pencils
next, Slavoj Zizek (unusually lucid), unpacking the false conflict
see also Corey Robin: “It’s the feudalism, stupid”
finally, Marcy Wheeler last summer, centering ISIS inside the West’s ideological vacuum
https://www.emptywheel.net/2014/09/02/the-wests-ideological-vacuum/
I miss cartoon violence that’s only dangerous to ducks & wabbits!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-k5J4RxQdE
Glenn, calm down…
It was just France’s “turn” to host a “terrorist” event.
First sleepy Canada gets two inside two weeks (the first was wasn’t spectacular enough {a couple of soldiers run down by a muslim}, so they went for the lone jihadist attacking parliament)… as new anti-terror laws were about to be passed into law.
Then Australia just a few weeks later (as new anti-terrorism laws were being debated).
Now France, after supporting a Palestinian State and calling for an end to the Putin sanctions in the previous week.
But, we all know everything happens in ‘3s’ so this is clearly just the universe unfolding as “planned”… lol!
The Left’s Ignorant Islam Critics
‘Secular progressivism has produced some of the most unfair and uninformed assessments of the Muslim faith.’
-Steven Zhou – January 9, 2015
[snip]
‘Criticism of Islam has become a staple of contemporary politics as observers and practitioners alike wrestle with the myriad implications of Muslims living in the post-9/11 West. For the most part, one could argue with great force that the social panic generated by current fears have been “much ado about nothing,” as Muslims have not shown themselves to be an existential threat to their civilizational counterparts.
That’s not to say that no one can or should criticize Islam, as many have. The problem is whether or not such criticism stems from true understanding or total conjecture. Sadly, the latter has been much prevalent, and the culprits aren’t always raving Christian fundamentalists who, in depicting Islam as a “Satanic religion,” prefer an Armageddon-style showdown between faiths. Rather, it’s arguable that some of the most unfair and ignorant assessments of Islam and Muslims have come from those who label themselves as “progressive.”
The attack on France’s satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo is a horrid and barbaric response to some of worst, most unfair “criticisms” of Islam. The cartoons that depict the Prophet Muhammad are meant as a provocation, as was the ensuing massacre which left a dozen people dead. The magazine is now being lionized as a platform that’s been at the forefront of free speech guardianship. A look through its so-called satirical treatment of Muslim figures and it’s quite obvious that the outlet’s top priority when it comes to Islam is to offend and provoke—none of which are crimes, let alone offenses punishable by death. There’s a difference between having one’s expression being protected by free speech principles and actually being a defender of such principles. All of Charlie Hebdo’s writings and cartoons deserve protection (even though their management has fired cartoonists before for anti-Semitism), the framework used for their (mis)interpretation of Islam is awfully similar to those used by the far right..’
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-lefts-ignorant-islam-critics/
One, who sued and was reinstated, and who was fired without the support of the rest of the CH staff. Phillipe Val made the decision to fire & left shortly thereafter.
Glenn, I am a big fan of your work, but you lack humility here, and a mastery of French: you do not know Charlie Hebdo’s history, nor the french culture of satire. You speak from a strictly american point of view without being aware of it. They absolutely were equal opportunity offenders, and it is well documented, to the point that one of their former editors was assigned to court for anti-semitism – the case was dismissed. Not only that, but they had several muslim collaborators on their staff, and were very welcoming to fellow muslim cartoonists. The culture of outrage that is so prevalent in the US is often ridiculed in France. Charlie Hebdo’s philosophy is that freedom of expression has to be used and tested so that it doesn’t disappear. You, of all people, should get it.
Greenwald sets this up as an either/or proposition: Anti-Muslim cartoons versus anti-Semitic or anti-Israel cartoons. Sure, he mentions anti-Christian sentiment, yet doesn’t include even one example of it. So in a way he’s implying that the Jews really do control the media, because anti-Muslim cartoons are allowed and anti-Semitic ones suppressed in the West. This is disturbing.
The fact that some of these nasty anti-Semitic and anti-Israel cartoons were created by a Brazilian cartoonist doesn’t change the fact that cartoons like them are regularly published in the Arab world, where anti-Semitic sentiment runs high. I think it’s incredibly offensive to imply that Muslims are solely victims of oppression and hatred when they propagate so much age-old bigotry and hatred toward Jews. Just read the comments on any story posted on Facebook that is related directly or indirectly to Jews or Israel — there is plenty of hatred, bigotry, and ignorance espoused there with zero accountability or shame.
I realize Greenwald’s M.O. was to shock and appall readers and to wake people up to the hypocrisy in defending freedom of speech only some of the time. The fact is there is plenty of nasty anti-Semitic rhetoric out there if you just pay attention. And considering the recent attacks on Jews in Europe AND the U.S., we don’t have far to look.
Very disappointing, Mr. Greenwald.
It is evident that cartoons real function is to redicule or make fun of certain things. Some of these cartoon are terribly offensive to Jews, but, the only things Jews can do in a civilized world is not buying such publication, or purchase no advertizment in these publication. Muslims, on the other hand, who get offended they call on other Muslims to FIGHT TO DEFEND THEIR RELIGION? The concept of defending the religion in a physical sense is unacceptable in a civilized world. as one is called names, the offended can call the offender names too, but cannot shoot him. Most of the world knows that except the mafia thugs, and the Muslim thugs.
This is a stupid article. Comparing other religions to Islam is apples and oranges. No other religion has been continually for almost 1500 years trying to force people to convert, and if they don’t, they are murdered.
Also, no other religion is killing people, or killing people over other people’s opinions of their religion.
Lastly, in posting anti-Jew photos (whether or not the article is simply a guise to express your underlying ant-Jewish sentiments) you are contradicting the very thing your article wishes to do- prove that muslims are unfairly treated. Yet I ASK YOU THIS:
How many death threats, attempts on your life, etc. have you received from Jews or Christians?
You sir, are an idiot.
I’ve seen some pretty bad comments in this section, but yours actually stood out. No other religion kills people, or committed violence historically based on conversion? Go back to history class and try again, or pay some attention to current events. It’s clear that you’re fully indoctrinated and drinking the kool-aid of how anything that doesn’t overtly support Israel is anti-semitic. It’s also clear that even the most basic logic eludes you, as your blowing Greenwald’s photos out of proportion and totally failing to grasp his use of them or the point of his article shows. Your reaction encapsulates exactly the kind of bias that Greenwald is talking about. I would go on but apparently you think the number of death threats Greenwald receives from Jews and Christians (and I’m sure he has had PLENTY, plus other forms of backlash given how power is used and wielded in this country and in circles where such institutional power exists) would somehow serve to strengthen your point.
https://twitter.com/samhusseini/status/554373849048178689
The failure of liberalism (classic or otherwise).
Sam’s appearance on Bill O’Reilly 9/13/01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUQSY4C6CwE&feature=youtu.be
“Who will get killed in the process?”
“It doesn’t matter”
“This is war!”
“This is war!”
“This is war!”
well I had completed all fields but sadly the comment on the need to limit people’s ability to gratuitously insult all and sundry disappeared into the ether. And I didn’t even insult anyone.
There is indeed such a thing as abuse of free speech – and the more sordid (and indeed thoroughly humorless) Charlies cartoons show that. State authorities in a democracy Worth its salt need to make legal provision for free speech. That does not and should not mean that anyone can say or pubish whatever the hell they like. Can publishers not have the brains to know what should and should not be published or must they keep pushing the boundaries of bad taste even further beyond where they already are. And yes, Greenwald is right about the career-killing nature of anything anti-Jewish. But that proves my point. If a German magazine or paper published an anti-Jewish cartoon there would be hell to pay in the media elsewhere. And so they don’t do it – that may be self censorship but everybody knows why in the German-Jewish context. Must we all be gratuitously insulted in the 21st Century on the spurious grounds of free speech I wonder. Some of you talk about ‘good’ cartoons. But many of Charlie’s were plain bad – unfunny, and designed merely to gratuitously offend – and not just Muslims either. I think Charlies is liberty to put up depictions of Mohamed – but at the same time it is well known that this offends many people. Therefore, having made its rather puerile point some years ago I think it might have been better had the magazine desisted in the main thereafter. Instead, it has added insult to injury, heaped upon insult and injury ever since. All a little silly, rather unnecessary, and giving a convenient excuse to extremists to wreak havoc. We should be in the business of removing the space in which terrorists find their excuse, however unjustified.
I support free speech.
Having read this article and some of the comments here, I have genuinely troubling questions that defy resolution in my mind, perhaps because I may have factored in too many variables in trying to answer them. One of which is human emotion…
Is there such a thing as the abuse of free speech? And if there does indeed exist such, what exactly does it consist of and who decides?
Is there a line if demarcation between free speech and and utterances with deliberate intent to insult, demean and incite through arousal of severe emotional reaction or is every utterance deserving of protection as free speech?
” Threatening the President of the United States is a class D felony under United States Code Title 18, Section 871.[1] It consists ofknowingly and willfully mailing or otherwise making “any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon thePresident of the United States”. Wikipedia.
Would the threat quoted above, suddenly become less so and more of a protected free speech issue when cartoonised or expressed in film intended to “entertain” ?
It’s easy to take any one censorship law, however narrow, and say that it justifies all the others. This is why we have to constantly work toward improving our freedom of speech rather than complacently allowing old and stupid exceptions. In the case of threats to the president, I think we all know how silly it is to go off investigating random bits of rhetoric; _usually_ the investigations seem more limited to crank letter writers who go out of their way to be noticed, but even so… it can be bad. I remember back during the election with Bob Dole in it some tech guy made an “exploding heads” website where cartoon heads of Dole and his opponent (Clinton I think) would inflate and blow up when you moved a mouse over them. Or so I’m told. Because EVEN WHILE newspapers were talking about the site as a lighthearted example of Americans using their freedom of speech, it was ALREADY DOWN and the guy had been fired from his job after the SS showed up and started interrogating his employer.
My opinion: it’s just plain stupid. The most serious assassins aren’t gonna send their targets a note first. The days when the Secret Service protected presidents from guys who hear voices is long gone. (If it ever _was_, that is … I suspect that the connections of Oswald with Russia and perhaps others have been hushed up to avoid direct military confrontations) Today there’s simply no use looking at every kid who threatens the president on social media; they need to be ready for everybody from al-Qaida to North Korea.
Thanks for your thoughts. The incident that you mention about “blowing heads”, and its aftermath I think, is exactly the dilemma that is at the heart of my question and illustrates the point well.
Where was the guy’s free speech rights recognized and protected when he was scooped up by the SS? Or did he abuse free speech by crossing the lines of its confines and if so, where do those lines lie, and who decides?
There is no such thing as an “abortion doctor.”
” . . . Violence spurred by Jewish and Christian fanaticism is legion, from abortion doctors being murdered to gay bars being bombed to a 45-year-old brutal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza due in part to the religious belief (common in both the U.S. and Israel) that God decreed they shall own all the land. And that’s all independent of the systematic state violence in the west sustained, at least in part, by religious sectarianism . . .
There is NO such thing as an “abortion [physician].” Abortion is a procedure, not a profession.
No state licenses, nor does any medical board certify, “abortion” as a profession or medical specialty.
Calling a physician by the name of a procedure, or condition, would leave the yellow pages full of listings for “Appendectomy Physician” or “Hemorrhoidectomy Physician” or “Erectional Functioning Physician” or “Eye-re-wetting & enhanced-tear-producing Physician.”
“Abortion physician” or “abortion ‘doctor'” or “abortionist;” are however, intentional slurs against physician’s who perform this procedure. The term is a is a right-wing shibboleth meant dehumanize physicians and misinform/misdirect civil public discourse related to women’s access to health care.
The term “abortion doctor” came into common usage at the pushing of the pro-choice movement. They considered the prior common term, “abortionist,” too much associated with sleazy, unsafe practitioners from the time what the procedure was illegal. For the same reason, pro-lifers persist in referring to “abortionists.”
The only reason why abortion is a medical procedure is because all governments lack the backbone to define, recognize, defend, and punish those who would be murderers if their victims had already emerged from the womb.
Guess we need to ‘define, recognize, defend (?) and punish’ those would-be murderers who produce guns, bullets, bombs, etc. too then huh?
Jan 7, 2015 Gun Attack on French Satirical Magazine
A manhunt is underway in Paris, where earlier today three masked gunmen attacked the offices of French satirical magazine ‘Charlie Hebdo’. At least 12 people were killed, including the magazine’s editor and two police officers.
http://youtu.be/voMnYeyOzwM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B63FLT4CYAA5CMe.png
Great points on free speech. I’d like to see some Jehovah-bashing cartoons, myself. This jealous, vengeful and violent god is the Big Cheese in all three “monotheistic” religions: Judism, Christianity and Islam. Burn down the bush!
Unfortunately the author failed to discern the difference between satire and hate. To draw a carticature of Moses in a demeaning way would not raise many eyebrows, if any. Had Charlie Hedbo published cartoons attacking ADHERANTS of Islam then publishing the cartoons of Carlos Latuff and other like minded artists would have made sense. Satirising religious icons isn’t necessarily hate. Latuff’s Holocaust Inversion though meets- for example- the EU Working definition of Anti Semitism.
Glen Greenwald falls pathetically short. Indeed, the analogy was nonsensical. Making fun of individuals, whether Jewish OR Muslim dimply for their religious afilliation is obnoxious and can be construed as out and out bigotry. Making fun of an ideology is an entirely different matter. Strangely, Greenwald never realised this.
Hell yes, Glen!
Well said Mr Greenwald. Thanks for this article and publishing of “jokes” at the other end of the spectrum. As an atheist I can concur that it was sorely needed. We will see what the reaction to ‘their own medicine’ really will be though.
P.S. Although I have not agreed with all the masses they have managed to round up, with their fear of difference, declaring “I am Charlie”, not to mention the war criminals such as Netanyahu and his ilk yesterday in Paris, I would say “I am a tree of the Greenforest/Greenwald”, if things would take the same direction. Keep up the good fight.
But of course the right-on, secular/atheist tendency is not the subject of the cartoons. Many of those targeting both muslims and Christians went well beyond the bounds of acceptable humorous good taste. As a Christian, I can take the odd joke – up to a point. (It seems the muslims cannot). But please don’t gratuitously insult me week after week on the fatuous and false grounds that said insults are somehow amusing. They are not. I could publish a diatribe lambasting atheists either with real comments or just innuendo or sheer made up fantasy nonsense and then pass it all off as a laugh. Would you find it funny? I suspect not very. Freedom of speech cannot comprise an exhortation to rip certain groups to pieces week after week. But one thing I genuinely find side-splittingly funny is how AQ can’t stomach a (bad taste) “joke” on the one hand but mass murder is of course quite all right.
This is a great and much needed text, thank you!
Some are more equal than others.
“Indeed, it is self-evident that if a writer who specialized in overtly anti-black or anti-Semitic screeds had been murdered for their ideas, there would be no widespread calls to republish their trash in “solidarity” with their free speech rights.”
Big if. Seems more “self-evident” that overtly anti-black or anti-Semitic screeds” tend to result in the murders of black people and Jews than of the authors of the screeds.
Now this is satire!
It seems Al Qaeda might have done more research on the intent of the cartoons than many critics.
I’d say so. AQ repeatedly says their issue is “blasphemy.” Not a word about racism. And god knows Charlie Hebdo excels at blasphemy in all flavors.
@Mona
Here are some links to some Daily Kos diaries that have some interesting perspectives.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/11/1357057/-The-Charlie-Hebdo-cartoons-no-one-is-showing-you
@Mona
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/11/1356945/-On-not-understanding-Charlie-Why-many-smart-people-are-getting-it-wrong
@Mona
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/11/1356955/-Charlie-Speaks-For-Himself-Charbonnier-on-charges-of-racism
Thank you for all those, lastname. I’ve tweets links and quotes to all three Kos entries.
The staff at Charlie Hebdo must be deeply demoralized; they’ve lost a dozen of their friends and colleagues to unspeakable violence. The right-wing globally is invoking their name in a manner they find revolting, while at the same time fellow leftists are making huge, ignorant misjudgments about who they are. They have my deep sympathy and condolences.
Well-said, Mona. One of the blogs linked to in this post confounds race & religion dreadfully, much in the way that white supremacists confound race with culture when they talk about ‘preservation of heritage’.
Challenging ideas is an integral part of being thinking, evolving human beings. Attacking human beings is not. I am not a French speaker, but it appears from what I have seen it looks like Charlie Hebdo seeks to do the former. I’d like to see some fellow users of the internet go back to school and draw a few Venn diagrams – and realise that not all Muslims are terrorists, not all white people are racist and unaware of privilege, some Muslim extremists are white, not all Jews conduct blood rituals and not all Catholics molest boys.
I do not belong to any religion, but I do not make a habit of attacking the spiritual beliefs of others – except where particular beliefs are acted upon in a way that brings others harm. It saddens me that satire is apparently dead. We’ve lost the courage and the intellectual capacity to appreciate that social commentary dressed as humour is a powerful tool to provoke discussion and independent thought. Fanatical social conservatives have never understood it, but when liberals are afraid to use it, terrorists of all creeds have won.
please read Juan Cole on “sharpening the contradictions”. He says it’s a strategic attack. He compares it to the false flag attacks by Bolsheviks.
http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
The focus on “blasphemy” misses the forest for the trees. I think this is devastating, because it means the strategy is working. Liberals are on board, and the political space for violence against Muslims expands even further.
These groups (cancerous tumors within Islam) seem to have a much bigger agenda. What they did in France may be specifically on the cartoons, but it, and other actions they take, seem to be simply stepping stones for them to get to where they want to.
They are no friends of the Muslims — they have killed Muslims about 8 times the number of non-Muslims they have killed, according to a recent finding, the link to which I provided elsewhere, nor do they love the Prophet (S). They are full of hatred, vengeance, anger, selfishness, and other qualities of the lower self. So their hearts are full of darkness, which is why they annihilate themselves while taking others’ lives.
Here’s another cartoon you can add to the bunch, to test the mettle of the “freedom of expression” folks. ;)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t34.0-12/10933064_10206077648728128_133674629_n.jpg?oh=33cf425147bb40cd913ca0856fb235c4&oe=54B5E2A3&__gda__=1421278834_4e3c2f8ccb07a955906a7fe129dd797f
Bravo, Mr Greenwald.
I Concur! In fact the hypocrisy of French establishment that have laws to make it a crime to publicly refute the official historical account of WWII or anything to do with the holocaust. Up to 10 years in Prison and 250,000 Euros. On top of that, to make sure free speech does not exist anywhere, they have past a law that even in your home you are considered making a public statement when are present more than 3 persons and at least one is not direct family. Further, François Hollande how invites to l’Élysée, ex- French President Sarkozy, the Thursday after the attacks, to demonstrate unity…Sarkozy who, in 2008 I believe) wanted to make it a crime to make a caricature of either him or a member of his family (in this case, his own son how had just gotten an administrative jobs thanks to the UMP, not to say his papa). On top of this, the idea that at a time where Feminism is imposing the new framework to our societies, the idea that Free Speech can survive is risible…no two concepts have ever been more antagonist to each other than Free Speech and Feminism.
An office that was ‘fire-bombed’ and perpetual death threats? Why is no one questioning the paltry security that this self-centered (‘dog less’) editor provided for his employees?
[snip]
‘There will continue to be no taboos at Charlie Hebdo in the future. “It should be as normal to criticize Islam as it is to criticize Jews or Catholics,” Charbonnier says. Is he afraid of attacks or violence directed against him and his colleagues? “I have neither a wife nor children, not even a dog. But I’m not going to hide.” On Friday, another edition of 75,000 copies will appear..’
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/charlie-hebdo-editor-in-chief-on-muhammad-cartoons-a-856891.html
Which countries have a death penalty for blasphemy? And do those countries have a problem with antisemitic cartoons?
Another pathetic, “but, but we’re not as bad as THEM!” comment.
That was not exactly the point. I do prefer to hold ourselves to a higher standard. I have no desire to see a “race to the bottom” regarding tolerance and inhumanity. And I have no problem with antisemitic cartoons re free speech. But it would be insensitive not to see the differences in the which cartoons are tolerated and where. There are many cartoonist in Islamic countries that have been punished even the slightest question of legitimacy of their regimes or culture.
I do see some differences in the cartoon content. The point of satire is to make fun of follies, abuses, etc. While I defend the right to produce antisemitic cartoons, I don’t see them as being satirical. After all, pedophilia in the Catholic Church is pretty well documented. Conspiracy theories about Jews have been proven to be fallacious.
Blasphemy being a victimless crime, there are a great number of governments that inflict the death penalty for them.
Mona, do you have a link to the Olivier letter below that you an share? I would like to share it more widely with friends but would like to include the link so that they can explore it independent of any editing I might do.
Thank you for sharing it here with us. I think it raises important concerns.
http://blogs.mediapart.fr/blog/olivier-tonneau/110115/charlie-hebdo-letter-my-british-friends
Thanks, suave. And sorry I didn’t include it, Pedinska. It had been getting close to my beddy bye time.
Great article, keep speaking truth to power. FNC or MSNBC sure isn’t in that business. Saw your speech in Canada, glad that you did not pull any punches there. I see the poseur David Cameron in the front of the march line in Paris. Read your article on the criminalization of speech in the UK, free speech begins at home. In the UK, the US, or Canada. Thanks for all your work and publishing what none of the rest of the big media would think of publishing.
“Surprising Study On Terrorism: Al-Qaida Kills Eight Times More Muslims Than Non-Muslims
By Yassin Musharbash
Few would deny that Muslims too are victims of Islamist terror. But a new study by the Combating Terrorism Center in the US has shown that an overwhelming majority of al-Qaida victims are, in fact, co-religionists.”
at http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/surprising-study-on-terrorism-al-qaida-kills-eight-times-more-muslims-than-non-muslims-a-660619.html
A better way to stereotype us Muslims would be to lump us all as the primary victims of terrorism of terrorism instead of stereotyping us all as terrorists.
It should follow that Islam is inherently a victim of violence instead of inherently violent.
No surprise there. The mythical “Al Qaeda” is a CIA construct.
Well-said. This has not gone unnoticed by many of us in the West who live outside of the reactionary USA.
Breaking news – The French govt has asked that an investigation into controversial black performer Dieudonné be made – the accusation? “Incitement to terrorism” because Dieudonné said that after the attack he felt like “Charlie Coulibaly” – and that is criminal speech according to the govt. Dieudonné loves to provoke the French and it would be magnificent if he were imprisoned for his speech while the French were hysterically declaring their love of freedom of expression. Many of his shows have been censored by the French govt and he is still being prosecuted for criminal speech by the government for past declarations.
In addition, Dieudonné said he did go to the historical demonstration on Sunday. He qualified it as “a magical moment like the Big Bang”, “comparable to the crowning of Vercingétorix”.
http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/une-enquete-ouverte-contre-dieudonne-pour-apologie-du-terrorisme-12-01-2015-1895826_23.php
GAZIANTEP, Turkey — A U.S.-led coalition airstrike killed at least 50 Syrian civilians late last month when it targeted a headquarters of Islamic State extremists in northern Syria, according to an eyewitness and a Syrian opposition human rights organization.
Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/01/11/252671_us-airstrike-in-syria-may-have.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy
Great and important article!
Sorry Glen. I’m a great admirer of your work, but this time, you’re not even wrong. You’ve missed it completely. Couldn’t you have checked before charging in? Is there no French person you trust you could have discussed it with?
I am one of the three-million-plus French citizens who marched yesterday. I did not do so for an anti-Muslim or racist paper, as you seem to think. Charlie Hebdo is neither of these things. And I certainly wouldn’t have turned out if it had been. As it happens, I am less of an absolute-free-speech freak than you, and I am happy to see hate speech banned (as long as that can be challenged in an honest legal system). Charlie doesn’t publish hate speech. Sure, many Muslims feel offended because they satirise their Prophet, but that is not the same thing as Charlie insulting Muslims. You do get that, don’t you?
And you’ve got it wrong about Charlie not being an equal-opportunity offender, too. Sure, Judaism gets less time than Catholicism and Islam in its cartoons, but that’s largely based on French demography. They don’t have quotas.
We in the west are enclosed in PC tyranny, Going around saying things to deliberately hurt peoples feelings is wrong, So is taking offense at real disagreement on policy and destroying peoples careers of folks who don’t kowtow liberal PC life=styles like Gay marriage crammed down their throats. Now the PC chickens are come home to roost by letting in large groups of people who do not share our values but who have picked up the right to be perpetually aggrieved.
Why are these cartoons (with the exception of one) all about Jews? I was expecting at least a little bit of Catholic bashing, maybe something implying that the Pope is a paedophile. Disappointed.
And attacking Jews personally, and Israel, rather than Judaism. Which misses the whole point about the Mohammed cartoons.
From what I read of this article, the author criticises his contemporaries for endorsing bigoted free speech, and republishing offensive and bigoted cartoons done by Charlie Hebdo in an act of support.
However, he does just the same thing that he accuses them of doing, of being biased and offending only one religion.
He ends off by saying: “One can defend free speech without having to publish, let alone embrace, the offensive ideas being targeted. But if that’s not the case, let’s have equal application of this new principle.” and earlier says “To comport with this new principle for how one shows solidarity with free speech rights and a vibrant free press, we’re publishing some blasphemous and otherwise offensive cartoons about religion and their adherents:”
However HE DOES NOT APPLY the so-called EQUAL APPLICATION to all religions and adherents and uses this article as a platform to post anti-semitic cartoons, manipulating a quasi-liberal argument to share his own malign personal prejudices with a large audience.
“-Mona-
09 Jan 2015 at 10:29 pm
It is common for progressives to (rightly) expect that one try to understand another culture before passing judgment on it. So, too, should one consider the words of a Frenchwoman who insists her culture is radically atheist and secular, and has a right to be. She further explains that Charlie Hebdo is not racist. Addressing the cartoon of their black Justice Minister, Christiane Taubira, depicted as a monkey (her emphasis):
…every french person knows that the [far-right party] Front National was under attack for having compared Christiane Taubira to a monkey…And, if you still haven’t got it, the title of the comic by Charb is “Rassemblement Bleu Raciste” which literally means “Blue Racist Gathering” and is a pun on the slogan of the Front National “Rassemblement Bleu Marine” (Navy Blue Gathering, in French the name of the Front National leader is Marine Le Pen, and Marine means Navy). So, this comic is actually an attack mocking the Front National and their bullshit. Is it tasteless ? Maybe. Is it racist ? No.
Read the woman’s whole (so-so English) here: http://67-tardis-street.tumblr.com/post/107589955860/dear-us-followers
I’ve encountered a similar explanation for the cartoon of the pregnant Boko Haram sex slaves Glenn reproduced; if I can find it again I will reproduce it.”
______________
I understand it’s Charlie Hebdo’s alleged racism this woman is focusing on, but philosophically the Taubira episode is interesting in a freedom-of-speech perspective.
First, the Charlie Hebdo cover, re-tweeted the day of the attacks (with a disapproving comment) by Max Blumenthal, of all people
https://twitter.com/maxblumenthal/status/553028659888807936
But he got the facts wrong : Charlie Hebdo wasn’t the first to illustrate one of far-right magazine ‘Minute’ ‘s cover titles, namely “Christiane Taubira a la banane”, which is an idiomatic expression (involving a banana) meaning she’s feeling great.
This cover itself didn’t fall out of the blue. There were two precedents :
a/ In October 2013, a far-right candidate to a local election had already euphemistically compared her to a monkey on national television : “I’d rather see her jump in a tree than being part of the government”, she’d said. For this statement, she would later be sentenced to a 9-month prison term… by a French Guyana-based tribunal after a local political party filed a lawsuit against her (French Guyana is Taubira’s birthplace. She wrote several books about different aspects of French colonialism, among which the education system, which, until the 1960ies, taught even Caribbean kids they had Gallic ancestors.). A small store owner, the woman wasn’t able to attend her own trial, nor get represented in this far-away piece of the late French empire.
All (caustic) details here (in French) : http://ecrans.liberation.fr/ecrans/2014/07/20/taubira-l-affreuse-et-le-marteau-pilon_1067272
b/ Some anti-gay-marriage demonstrators then recycled the comparison and started throwing bananas at Taubira when she appeared at public events. Posters of her featuring her picture as an adult next to that of a young monkey with a ‘before/after’ caption started appearing.
c/ Only after these two events, and after the ‘Minute’ cover, did Charlie Hebdo publish the cartoon Max Blumenthal now finds so repellent.
This indeed tends to illustrate not only the blatant absence of French cultural background a lot of US media pundits commenting the Charlie Hebdo attack suffer from (as you said yourself, Mona), but also a certain emotional bias that seems to prevent even the bravest among them from gathering (all) the facts before hanging some newspaper out to dry.
Second, the philosophical aspect :
Taubira is not the only European politician who had to endure being compared to a monkey by some extremists. So did former Italian minister of Integration Cécile Kyenge, in her case even within parliament !
Here’s my question : if you take away the harassment and the death threats both were regularly subject to, can such an obnoxious comparison somehow be considered a form of satire when the one making it is a politician ? To paraphrase, is satire the exclusive prerogative of professional satirists, or a basic human right in any free society ? In the latter case, are there any decency limits ? And according to which criteria does one assert when satire is threatening to lead to physical violence ? In the former case, since all journalists/cartoonists need a State-delivered press card, and all humorists a State-delivered license for the entertainment business (renewable every three years), isn’t the State somehow in a position to determine which type of satire it deems acceptable, and which not ? If so, does the concept of State-sanctified satire make any sense ?
As illustrated by the State-level witch hunt against French comedian Dieudonné, accused of being an anti-Semite and a hate instigator, these are no abstract questions…
Without embracing or rejecting all it contains, for informational purposes I offer the following open letter from a French leftist to his co-ideologues in the UK:
—————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
On Charlie Hebdo: A letter to my British friends
11 JANVIER 2015 | PAR OLIVIER TONNEAU
Dear friends,
Three days ago, a horrid assault was perpetrated against the French weekly Charlie Hebdo, who had published caricatures of Mohamed, by men who screamed that they had “avenged the prophet”. A wave of compassion followed but apparently died shortly afterward and all sorts of criticism started pouring down the web against Charlie Hebdo, who was described as islamophobic, racist and even sexist. Countless other comments stated that Muslims were being ostracized and finger-pointed. In the background lurked a view of France founded upon the “myth” of laïcité, defined as the strict restriction of religion to the private sphere, but rampantly islamophobic – with passing reference to the law banning the integral veil. One friend even mentioned a division of the French left on a presumed “Muslim question”.
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As a Frenchman and a radical left militant at home and here in UK, I was puzzled and even shocked by these comments and would like, therefore, to give you a clear exposition of what my left-wing French position is on these matters.
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Firstly, a few words on Charlie Hebdo, which was often “analyzed” in the British press on the sole basis, apparently, of a few selected cartoons. It might be worth knowing that the main target of Charlie Hebdo was the Front National and the Le Pen family. Next came crooks of all sorts, including bosses and politicians (incidentally, one of the victims of the shooting was an economist who ran a weekly column on the disasters caused by austerity policies in Greece). Finally, Charlie Hebdo was an opponent of all forms of organized religions, in the old-school anarchist sense: Ni Dieu, ni maître! They ridiculed the pope, orthodox Jews and Muslims in equal measure and with the same biting tone. They took ferocious stances against the bombings of Gaza. Even if their sense of humour was apparently inacceptable to English minds, please take my word for it: it fell well within the French tradition of satire – and after all was only intended for a French audience. It is only by reading or seeing it out of context that some cartoons appear as racist or islamophobic. Charlie Hebdo also continuously denounced the pledge of minorities and campaigned relentlessly for all illegal immigrants to be given permanent right of stay. I hope this helps you understand that if you belong to the radical left, you have lost precious friends and allies.
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This being clear, the attack becomes all the more tragic and absurd: two young French Muslims of Arab descent have not assaulted the numerous extreme-right wing newspapers that exist in France (Minute, Valeurs Actuelles) who ceaselessly amalgamate Arabs, Muslims and fundamentalists, but the very newspaper that did the most to fight racism. And to me, the one question that this specific event raises is: how could these youth ever come to this level of confusion and madness? What feeds into fundamentalist fury? How can we fight it?
.
I think it would be scandalous to answer that Charlie Hebdo was in any way the cause of its own demise. It is true that some Muslims took offence at some of Charlie’s cartoons. Imams wrote in criticism of them. But the same Imams were on TV after the tragedy, expressing their horror and reminding everyone that words should be fought with words, and urging Muslims to attend Sunday’s rally in homage to Charlie Hebdo. As a militant in a party that is routinely vilified in the press, I don’t go shoot down the journalists whose words or pictures trigger my anger. It is a necessary consequence of freedom of expression that people might be offended by what you express: so what? Nobody dies of an offence.
.
Of course, freedom of speech has its limits. I was astonished to read from one of you that UK, as opposed to France, had laws forbidding incitement to racial hatred. Was it Charlie’s cartoons that convinced him that France had no such laws? Be reassured: it does. Only we do not conflate religion and race. We are the country of Voltaire and Diderot: religion is fair game. Atheists can point out its ridicules, and believers have to learn to take a joke and a pun. They are welcome to drown us in return with sermons about the superficiality of our materialistic, hedonistic lifestyles. I like it that way. Of course, the day when everybody confuses “Arab” with “Muslim” and “Muslim” with “fundamentalist”, then any criticism of the latter will backfire on the former. That is why we must keep the distinctions clear.
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And to keep these distinctions clear, we must begin by facing the fact that fundamentalism is growing dangerously and killing viciously. Among its victims, the large majority are Muslims who would surely not want to be confused with their killers. So I return now to the question: what is the cause of the rise of fundamentalism?
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A friend told me that it was “the West bombing Muslim countries”. I am deeply suspicious of a statement that includes two sweeping generalizations and is reminiscent of Samuel Huntington’s theory of the “clash of civilizations”: the western world vs. the Muslim world. The only difference between George W. Bush and a leftwing stance would be that whilst Bush sided with the western world, the leftwing activist sides with the Muslim world. But to reverse Huntington’s view is a perverse way of confirming it. So let us try to address the issue otherwise.
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It is obvious that the rise of fundamentalism is intertwined with the complex series of tragedies that unfolded from colonialism to the present times, including the Israel/Palestine conflict. Yet I think we should recognize one thing. Just as the Christian religion caused an enormous lot of problems in the West for centuries, problems which were not always peacefully resolved, Islam has caused enormous problems in the Muslim world to a lot of people, too. Anywhere in the world, the space for individual rights has always had to be opened by rolling back religion a few miles. And this is something that the Muslim world has begun doing as early as the nineteenth-century, with difficulties not dissimilar to those experienced in the Christian world – for those who would like to explore the parallel, I recommend reading Sami Zubaida’s excellent book Beyond Islam.
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Few people even know today that there was a period, beginning in the mid-ninetieth century to the mid-twentieth century, called the Nadha (Rebirth, or Renaissance), which saw a wide-ranging process of secularisation from Morocco to Turkey. Few people care to remember that, in the 1950s and 60s, women wearing the veil were a small minority in Tunis, Algiers and even Cairo. This does not mean that they were not Muslims, mind you. Just as in the West, where a lot of Christian girls started having sex before marriage or taking the pill, principles were evolving, with some inevitable tensions.
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Much as it offends the Edward Saïd vision of cultures as bound to devour or be devoured, the Nadha was fuelled by ideas developed by European thinkers and enthusiastically endorsed by local students and intelligentsia – and before you accuse me of Western paternalism, let me stress two things. First, “ideas developed by European thinkers” are not “western ideas”. The anti-colonial movement referred to Marx, Freud and Robespierre, who had – and still have – fierce critics in the West. Second, at the very same time as the anti-colonial movement was drawing inspiration from the history of struggles in Europe, Claude Levy-Strauss was transforming the Western understanding of civilization by studying other cultures, just as Leibniz had extensively studied Chinese language, law and politics in his quest for Enlightenment. Peoples are neither homogeneous nor self-enclosed units: within peoples, people organize themselves and oppose themselves around principles and ideas.
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It is on the ashes of the Nadha that fundamentalism as we know it emerged. I say “emerged”, because we should not be fooled by the fundamentalists who claim to restore Islam in its original purity. The ideology they promote – literal, violent, legalistic, narrow-minded, other-worldly – is a radical novelty in the history of Islam. It is the dramatic perversion of a culture. So how did such a perversion take place? This is where the story gets complex – more complex than that of the West vs. the Muslim world.
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Anti-colonial movements in France’s former colonial empire (in Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco but also in Egypt) were secular (which of course does not mean that their members were atheists): they intended to create modern nation-states independent from the tutelage of Western exploiters. Thus in Algeria, the Front de Libération Nationale was fighting for the creation of a Democratic And Popular State of Algeria (note the distinctly communist touch). Yet the chaos that emerged during and after independence wars (for which the West clearly has a serious responsibility) provided an excellent opportunity for fanatics of all sorts, who had deeply resented the evolution of their countries, to return to prominence with a vengeance. Thus in Algeria, an extremist wing that had already subverted the FLN during the war eventually came into power after decades of political and economic instability, only to unleash atrocious violence. I have friends of Algerian origins who deeply resent to this day the fundamentalists who robbed them of their secular state and persecuted them to the point that they eventually migrated to France. I am not an expert on “the Muslim world” – if such generalization even makes sense – but I think a similar sort of process took place in many other countries.
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So France is home today to many Arabs, some of them Muslims, who were chased away from their home country by fundamentalists as early as the 1960s. They were exposed to racism of course, especially in the workplace – it’s the story that goes back to the Middle Ages of workers who fear the threat of outsiders – and also bullied by the police and treated like second-class citizens. They fought for equality and justice, with the support of many on the left of the political spectrum, for instance during the 1983 Marche des beurs. Believe it or not, none of the protagonists of the march were making religious claims; they were not walking as Muslims but as French citizens who demanded that France truly provides them with Liberté, Egalité and Fraternité.
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The spirit of the Marche des beurs is that of Charlie Hebdo: justice for all citizens, including migrants and minorities. Now let me fast forward. Last year, a film was produced, commemorating La Marche des beurs. The producers asked famous rappers to collectively record a promotional number. One of the rappers threw in the verse: “I demand a Fatwa on the dogs at Charlie Hebdo”. He also contrasted “our virtuous veiled girls” with “the make-up wearing sluts”. Yet there were many women in the Marche; none of them were taking a religious stance and few of them were wearing the veil. How could a secular movement for equality be rewritten in religious terms? This raises the question of the rise of fundamentalism in France.
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Let us be clear: fundamentalism is not caused by immigration from Muslim countries. It is very easy to demonstrate this: Muslims migrated in France as early as the 1950s and the issue of fundamentalism only arose in the last fifteen years. Moreover, among the young men who enlist to fight for Daesh, many are actually disenfranchised white youth with no familial links to Islam. Fundamentalism is something new, that exercises a fascination on disenfranchised French youth in general – not on Muslims in general. In fact, the older generation of French Muslims is terrified by the phenomenon. After the killing of Charlie Hebdo, Imams demanded that the government take action against websites and networks propagating fanaticism.
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That the emergence of fundamentalism is posing serious problems to Arabs also sheds an interesting light on the law banning the hijab – a law that is routinely mentioned as a proof of France’s anti-Muslim bias. I do not have a definite opinion on this law. I was, however, stunned when I read a very angry article by a writer I admire, Mohamed Kacimi. The son of an Algerian Imam, deeply attached to his Muslim culture yet also fiercely attached to secularism, Mohamed Kacimi lashed out angrily at white, middle-class opponents of the law, who focused on the freedom of Muslim women to dress as they please. They were not the ones, he said, who had their daughters in the suburbs called prostitutes, bullied and sometimes raped for the sole reason that they chose not to wear the veil – let us remember that many Muslim women do not consider wearing the veil as compulsory: again, we have here Muslims being persecuted by fundamentalists.
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France has a long tradition of secular Islam, fully compatible with the laws of the Republic, but at war with fundamentalists. In the nineties, the Paris Imam was shot by fanatics whose violence he denounced; more recently, the Imam of Drancy, who expressed displeasure with Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons but firmly denounced the fatwa issued against them by Al Quaida, was himself condemned to death by the terrorist organization and is living under the protection of the police.
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So the question is: how has a fraction of the French youth (of either white, black or Arabic origin) become so responsive to fundamentalism? The answer to this question cannot be directly traced back to “the West bombing Muslim countries”. I think it has primarily to do with the complete failure of the Republic to deliver on its promises of Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. Here, there is an important point to make.
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I often read in the English press, or hear from British friends, that French laïcité is a “foundational myth” – as if France lived under the illusion that religion could be eradicated once and for all. This has nothing to do with laïcité properly defined. Laïcité does not deny anybody the right to express their religious beliefs, but it aims to found society on a political contract that transcends religious beliefs which, as a result, become mere private affairs. The beurs who marched on Paris in 1983 were performing a laïc demonstration. They were not the only ones to demand that the Republic be true to its own principles. In a beautiful book titled La Démocratie de l’Abstention, two sociologists trace the heartbreaking story (at least it breaks my republican heart) of how the French citizens who arrived from the former colonies vote massively: they are proud of their right to participate in democracy. They try to convince their children to do the same; but the latter are not interested. Decades of social segregation and economic discrimination has made it clear to them that the word ‘French’ on their passport is meaningless – there is no equality, no freedom and clearly no fraternity.
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The process of disenfranchisement was gradual. Riots in the banlieues started erupting at the turn of the eighties, and gathered pace in the nineties. They had no religious subtext: they were expressions of anger at discrimination and police harassment. Yet the need to belong is a fundamental human need: if French youth of Arab descent could not feel that they belonged to France, what would they belong to? La Démocratie de l’abstention describes how the conflict between Israel and Palestine – which had been going on for decades already – suddenly caught the imagination of the youth: it was their Vietnam, their cause. They had found their brothers overseas. When, in the 2009 European elections, a bunch of crazed conspiracy theorists launched an anti-Semitic party which had strictly nothing to do with Europe or with the issues that these youth faced, they registered high votes in many suburbs. And as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict itself degenerated from a political conflict into a religious conflict, so did the French youth begin to read the world in religious terms.
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Youth is the age of self-sacrifice and revolutionary dreams. In the sixties, young middle class Frenchmen who felt alienated from their conservative milieu idolized Mao’s cultural revolution – no less nihilist than Islamic fundamentalism –, dreamed of throwing bombs and sometimes did so. But this case is different. The middle-class Maoists belonged to a privileged class. They were highly educated. They had the intellectual, economic and social means to move out of their nihilist craze and back into the world. The disenfranchised, ostracized youth are an easy target for indoctrinators of all sorts. Their world-view becoming ever more schematic, they endorsed a West Vs Muslim grid that apparently made some of them incapable of recognizing that a newspaper such as Charlie Hebdo, who was standing with Palestine, for ethnic minorities, for equal rights and justice, was on their side – a precious ally: the sole fact that Charlie Hebdo had poked fun at their faith was enough to make them worthy of death.
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And yet perhaps this narrative (which, be reassured, is nearing its end) helps you understand what Charlie Hebdo was trying to do. It was precisely trying to defend the republican ideals whereby it is not religion that determines your commitments but justice. It mocked not the religion that Muslims have quietly inherited from their fathers and forefathers, but the aggressive fundamentalism that demands that everybody defines themselves – ethically, politically, geographically – in religious terms. It stressed that a religion that lays a claim to ruling a society is dangerous and, yes, ridiculous, whichever religion it may be – Islam is no sacred cow.
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To conclude. I firmly condemn the bombing of Middle-Eastern countries (or any country for that matter) by Western governments. I vote for political parties that condemn it, and I demonstrate against it. I was shocked when such demonstrations were outlawed by the French government – but happy when the same government recognized the Palestinian state. In these demonstrations, I walk with people of all colours, origins and religious creed – we take a political, not a religious stand. And I despair to think that a fraction of the population of my country refuses to regard me as their ally because I am no friend of religions. Being aware of the root causes of the madness that took hold of these young people, I detest politicians who have done nothing to resolve the deliquescence of the banlieues, to fight routine discrimination and control police persecutions. These issues play as big a part in my view in the rise of fundamentalism in the French youth as do events in the Middle East; that is why, had I been in France today, I do not know if I would have wanted to march together with Angela Merkel and David Cameron – much less with Netanyahu and outright Nazis such as Viktor Orban.
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This is the difficult argument I am having with my French friends: we are all aware of the fact that the attack on Charlie Hebdo will be exploited by the Far right, and that our government will use it as an opportunity to create a false unanimity within a deeply divided society. We have already heard the prime minister Manuel Valls announce that France was “at war with Terror” – and it horrifies me to recognize the words used by George W. Bush. We are all trying to find the narrow path – defending the Republic against the twin threats of fundamentalism and fascism (and fundamentalism is a form of fascism). But I still believe that the best way to do this is to fight for our Republican ideals. Equality is meaningless in times of austerity. Liberty is but hypocrisy when elements of the French population are being routinely discriminated. But fraternity is lost when religion trumps politics as the structuring principle of a society. Charlie Hebdo promoted equality, liberty and fraternity – they were part of the solution, not the problem.
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With all best wishes,
Olivier
Good piece, particularly on the historical background. The political one, however, is a bit flawed, I’m afraid…
__________
“an interesting light on the law banning the hijab – a law that is routinely mentioned as a proof of France’s anti-Muslim bias. I do not have a definite opinion on this law.”
If the law banning burqas and niqabs in all public places is probably less controversial than the one banning hijabs (only for pupils and State services employees !), though one might wonder what which fate the former law promises those women (being forever locked up at home ?), the latter is as much an illustration of hardline ‘laïcité’ than it was a means for a right-wing president and government (the ones prior to the current ones) to do some more Muslim-bashing (In that regard, read below my answer to ‘wnt’.). Furthermore, what does such a law indicate if, once it is in effect, the prime minister (the current one, this time) guarantees the attendees of a powerful Jewish forum they, on the contrary, will always be able to wear their kippas at all times ?…
Last July, Counterpunch published another article, subtitled “Two Weighs Two Measures”. It was trying to highlight in various ways how much the implementation of ‘laïcité’ varies depending on the community concerned, amid an ever deteriorating climate in Palestine/Israel. Here it is :
July 09, 2014
Two Weights, Two Measures
The Israel Lobby and French Politics
by EVAN JONES
Pascal Boniface is a specialist in what the French call ‘geopolitics’. His output has been prodigious, traversing a wide variety of subjects. His latest book was published in May, titled: La France malade du conflit israélo-palestinien. For his literary efforts in this arena, Boniface has moved from respected commentator to being persona non grata in the mainstream media.
This story begins in 2001. Boniface was an adviser to the Parti Socialiste, with the PS then in a cohabitation government under RPR President Jacques Chirac and PS Prime Minister Lionel Jospin. In April 2001, he wrote an opinion for PS officials. The Party’s approach to Israel is based on realpolitik rather than on ethical principles, and it was time for a reappraisal.
Boniface published an article to the same effect in Le Monde in August 2001, which led to a response and rebuke by the then Israeli ambassador. Boniface then became fair game for the Israel lobby (my term – Boniface assiduously avoids it). Boniface was accused, via selective quotation, of urging the PS to cynically cater to the French Arab/Muslim community, more numerous than the Jewish community, to gain electoral advantage. As recently as January 2014, Alain Finkielkraut (rabble-rouser on the ‘Islamist’ problem in France) denounced Boniface on the same grounds.
The 1300 word 2001 note is reproduced in Boniface’s latest book. In a prefatory note to the reproduction, Boniface notes: “How many times have I not heard that one can’t move on the Middle East because of the ‘Jewish vote’ (sic) which of course does not exist but which nevertheless is largely taken on board by the elected of all sides.” Again, “It is not because there are more Arabs than Jews that it is necessary to condemn the Israeli Occupation; it is rather because the Occupation is illegal and illegitimate, contrary to universal principles and to the right of peoples to govern themselves.”
In the note itself, Boniface opines: “The intellectual terrorism that consists of accusing of anti-Semitism those who don’t accept the politics of Israeli governments (as opposed to the state of Israel), profitable in the short term, will prove to be disastrous in the end.” Paraphrasing Boniface: ‘… it will act to reinforce and expand an irritation with the French Jewish community, and increasingly isolate it at the national level.’ Boniface concludes:
“It is better to lose an election than to lose one’s soul. But in putting on the same level the government of Israel and the Palestinians, one risks simply to lose both. Does the support of Sharon [then Prime Minister] warrant a loss in 2002? It is high time that the PS … faces the reality of a situation more and more abnormal, more and more perceived as such, and which besides does not serve … the interests in the medium and long term of the Israeli people and of the French Jewish community.”
As Boniface highlights in 2014, “This note, alas, retains its topicality.”
Then comes 9/11 in September. There is the second Intifada in Palestine. Boniface wanted an internal debate in the PS, but is accused of anti-Semitism. The glib denunciation of terrorism brings with it a prohibition against the questioning of its causes.
Not content to be silenced, Boniface wrote a book in 2003, titled Est-il permis de critique Israël ?. Boniface was rejected by seven publishing houses before finding a publisher. In 2011, Boniface published a book titled Les Intellectuels Faussaires (The Counterfeit Intellectuals). In that book he called to account eight prominent individuals, not for their views (virulently pro-Israel, Neo-cons, Islamophobes) but because he claims, with evidence, that they persistently bend the truth. Yet they all regularly appear on the French mainstream media as expert commentators. The point here is that the 2011 book was rejected by fourteen publishers; add those who Boniface knew would be a waste of time approaching. Belatedly, Boniface found a willing small-scale publisher for Faussaires, and it has sold well in spite of a blackout in outlets that Boniface had expected some coverage.
Boniface also notes that Michel Bôle-Richard, recognized journalist at Le Monde, experienced a rejection for his manuscript Israël, le nouvel apartheid by ten publishing houses before he found a small-scale publisher in 2013. Boniface’s La France malade was rejected by the house that published his 2003 book. By default, it has been published by a small-scale Catholic press, Éditions Salvator. As Boniface notes, ‘this is symptomatic of the climate in France and precisely why this book had to be written’. It’s noteworthy that much of the non-mainstream media, including Marianne, Le Canard Enchainé and Mediapart, steers clear of the issue.
Boniface’s book is not about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Rather, it is about the parlous influence of the domestic Israel lobby on French politics and French society more broadly. Boniface claims that one can criticize any government in the world (one can even mercilessly attack the reigning French President), but not that of Israel.
After 2001, the PS was pressured to excommunicate him. Two regional presses ceased to publish his articles. There were attempts to discredit his organization – the Institut de Relations Internationales et Stratégiques – and to have him removed. He has been slurred as an anti-Semite.
At the peak of French Jewish organizations is the Conseil Représentatif des Institutions Juives de France. CRIF’s formal dominant concern is the combating of anti-Semitism. At its annual dinner, its President cites the yearly total of recorded anti-Semitic incidents, berating the assembled political elite (‘the turn up of Ministers rivals that of the 14th July’) who don’t dare to reply.
There are indeed recurring anti-Semitic events, and there was a noticeable surge for several years in the early 2000s. Prime Minister Jospin was blamed for not keeping a lid on troublemakers (read Arab/Muslim) from the banlieues. The Socialists were ousted in 2002 and CRIF became a vocal advocate for and supporter of the new Interior Minister Nicholas Sarkozy’s domestic hard-line against civil disorder.
But Jospin was ‘guilty’ of more. One of the PS’s most ardent supporters of Israel, Jospin visited Israel and the Occupied Territories in 1999. Experiencing the latter first hand, his government’s policy towards Sharon-led Israel becomes less ardent. For CRIF, France’s less than a 100% plus pro-Israel stance puts French Jews at greater risk, so CRIF maintains as its imperative to influence both foreign and domestic policy. After the Merah murders of (amongst others) three Jewish children and an adult at a Toulouse school in 2012, CRIF was still laying blame on Jospin. As Boniface notes, CRIF perennially attempts to influence France’s policies but refrains from attempting to influence Israel’s policies.
When the publisher of Boniface’s 2003 book rejected the latest proposal (originally planned as a revised edition of the earlier book), the excuse was that it was over-laden with statistics. Statistics there are (helped by French infatuation with surveys and polling), and they ground Boniface’s cause.
Boniface highlights a change in attitudes after the 1960s. Anti-Semitism was still observably prevalent in the 1960s (would you accept Jews as in-laws?, a Jewish President?, etc.) but has since been consistently in decline. At the same time, popular support for Israel has experienced consistent decline. Until 1967, support for Israel, as the ‘underdog’, in France was high. Gradually attitudes have changed. Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 1982 is a turning point. Increasingly the manifestations of conflict – the intifadas, the failures at Camp David and later of Oslo – are blamed on Israel. Increasingly, the sympathy is more in favor of the occupied rather than the occupier.
In 2003, a European-wide survey produced the result that the greatest percentage of those surveyed thought that, of all countries, Israel was a threat to world peace – ahead of the US, Iran and North Korea, and so on. If the facts are ugly then bury them. There has been no subsequent comparable survey.
With anti-Semitism down and dislike for Israeli government policies up, the main agenda of CRIF has been to become a ‘second ambassador’ for Israel under cover of the supposed omnipresent pall of anti-Semitism in France. Other organizations like the Bureau national de vigilance contre l’anti-sémitisme (BNVCA) and the Union des étudiants juifs de France (UEJF) are part of the Israel cheer squad.
Boniface cites CRIF President Roger Cukierman in 2005: “Teachers have a demanding task to teach our children … the art of living together, the history of religions, of slavery, of anti-Semitism. A labor of truth is also essential to inscribe Zionism, this movement of emancipation, amongst the great epics of human history, and not as a repulsive fantasy.” And CRIF President Richard Prasquier in 2011: “Today Jews are attacked for their support of Israel, for Israel has become the ‘Jew’ amongst nations.” After 2008, following the ascendancy of Prasquier to the CRIF presidency, CRIF institutionalizes the organization of trips to Israel by French opinion leaders, and the reception in France of Israeli personalities.
Boniface finds it odious that anti-Semitism should be ‘instrumentalized’ to protect Israeli governments regardless of their actions. There is the blanket attempt at censorship of all events and materials that open Israel’s policies to examination.
Representative is a planned gathering in January 2011 at the prestigious École normale supérieure of 300 people to debate the ‘boycott’ question. Among the participants were the Israeli militant peacenik Nurit Peled, who lost her daughter in a suicide bombing, and the formidable Stéphane Hessel. The ENS’s director cancelled the booking under direct pressure. The higher education Minister and bureaucracy were also lobbied, in turn putting pressure on the ENS.
In February 2010, Sarkozy’s Justice Minister Michèle Alliot-Marie issued a directive criminalizing those calling for a boycott of Israeli products. The formal reason given was that such a boycott militates against the freedom of commerce. The directive imposes a jail sentence and a heavy fine, and the Justice Minister instructed prosecutors that it is to be vigorously applied. Even the magistrature has criticized the directive, noting that its claimed dependence on a 2004 anti-discrimination law is inadmissible, and that it involves ‘a juridical assault of rare violence’ against a historic means of combating crimes of state. The directive remains in force under the Hollande Presidency.
The most striking reflection of the wholesale censorship agenda of the Israel lobby is the abuse of Jewish critics of Israel.
April 2010, under the banner Jcall.edu, a group of respected European Jews criticize the Occupation in defense of a more secure Israel, urging ‘two peoples, two states’ – they are attacked. March 2012, Jacob Cohen, Jewish critic of Israel, is physically menaced by the Ligue de défense juive (LDJ) during the launch of his book. November 2012, the mayoralty of the 19th arrondisement is attacked by the BNVCA for supporting an exhibition on the Negev Bedouins. Its sponsors, the Union juive française pour la paix (UJFP), are characterized as fronts for Palestinian propaganda. December 2012, Israeli Michel Warschawski is awarded the ‘prix des droits de l’homme de la République française’ – he is demonized. Other prominent Jewish intellectuals – Franco-Israeli Charles Enderlin, Rony Brauman, Edgar Morin, Esther Benbassa, members of the UJPF – are demonized.
July 2014, three young Jewish Israelis have been murdered. Charles Enderlin reports from Israel. The television channel France 2 mis-edits Enderlin’s reportage of ‘three young Israelis’ as ‘young colonists’. Widely respected for his sober reporting, Enderlin has been subsequently subject to a volley of abuse – thus: ‘it’s time to organise a commando to bump off this schmuck’.
April 2012, at the first Congress of friends of Israel. Israeli Ofer Bronchtein, President of the Forum international pour la paix, arrives as an official invitee. The LDJ attack him; the organisers, including CRIF, ask him to leave. Bronchtein later noted:
“If I had been attacked by anti-Semites in the street, numerous Jewish organisations would have quickly called for a demonstration at the Bastille. When it is fascist Jewish organisations that attack me, everybody remains silent …”
February 2013, Stéphane Hessel dies. Hessel’s life is an exemplar of courage and moral integrity; in his advanced years, this life was brought to our attention with the publication of his Indignez-vous ! in 2010. Hessel, part Jewish, was a strong critic of the Occupation and of the 2008-09 Gaza massacre. His death is met with bile from the lobby. CRIF labelled him a flawed thinker from whom they had little to learn and a doddery naïf giving comfort to the evil of others. A blogger on JssNews ranted: ‘Hessel! The guy who stinks the most. Not only his armpits but his inquisitorial fingers regarding the Jews of Israel.’ The LDJ celebrated – ‘Hessel the anti-Semite is dead! Champagne! [with multiple exclamation marks].’
Peculiarly in France, there is the LDJ. Its counterparts banned in Israel and the US (albeit not in Canada), the LDJ represents the strong-arm end of the Israel lobby. CRIF looks the other way. Boniface notes that it has been treated leniently to date by the authorities; is it necessary to wait for a death to confront its menace? On the recent murder of the three young Israelis, an LDJ tweet proffers: ‘The murders are all committed by the apostles of Islam. No Arabs, no murders! LDJ will respond rapidly and forcefully.’
As a de facto ambassador for Israel, the lobby has long attempted to influence French foreign policy. Boniface notes that in 1953 the new Israeli ambassador was met by Jewish representatives with the claim that ‘we are French citizens and you are the envoy of a foreign state’. That was then.
At successive annual dinners, CRIF has called for France to acknowledge Jerusalem as Israel’s ‘eternal’ capital, and to incorporate Israel as a member state in the Francophonie (with the associated financial benefits and cultural leverage). On those fronts, CRIF has been unsuccessful. But it has had success on the broader front.
The turning point comes with President Chirac’s refusal to sanction the coalition of the willing in its criminal rush to invade Iraq in March 2003. The lobby is not amused. Now why would that be? In whose interests did the invasion and occupation occur? Chirac’s reluctance is met with a concerted strategy of the French lobby in combination with the US Israel lobby and US government officials to undermine the French position. Thus the ‘French bashing’ campaign – not generated spontaneously by the offended American masses after all. In his 2008 book, then CRIF President Roger Cukierman notes his gratitude for the power of the US lobby, and its capacity to even pressure the French leadership over Iraq.
Boniface claims that Chirac falls into line as early as May 2003. There is established high level links between France and Israel. After that … Sharon is welcomed to France in July 2005. France denies acknowledgement of the Hamas electoral victory in January 2006. France demurs on Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 2006 (in spite of the historic ties between Beirut and Paris). France remains ‘prudent’ regarding Israel’s Operation Cast Lead against Gaza in late 2008 and the murderous assault on the Turkish-led flotilla in May 2010. France did vote ‘yes’ to a Palestinian state at the UN in November 2012, but in general French foreign policy has become captive to Israeli imperatives, thanks in particular to the domestic lobby.
* * *
In February 2006 a young Jew Ilam Halimi is tortured and murdered. The shocking event becomes a cause célèbre in the media. Halimi’s killer was an anti-Semite. The killer’s hapless gang members receive various sentences, but parts of the Jewish community complain of their inadequacy, want a retrial and lobby the Élysée. The Halimi murder has since been memorialized with a school prize for the guarding against anti-Semitism, and several films are being produced. At about the same time an auto worker had been murdered for money (as was Halimi). The latter murder received only a couple of lines in the press.
Boniface produces summary statistics that highlight the violent underbelly in French society. A shocking count of conjugal murders, large-scale infanticide and rampant child abuse. Tens of thousands of attacks on police and public sector workers. A string of shocking gang attacks with death threats against members of the Asian and Turkish communities – those presumed to keep much liquid cash in their homes. Boniface notes that the anti-Semitic attacks (some misinterpreted in their character) need to be put into perspective.
And then there’s the Arab/Muslim communities. A survey was desirably undertaken in schools to combat racism. A student innocently notes that any tendency to display anti-Semitism is met with a huge apparatus of condemnation. (The 2002 Lellouche Law raised the penalties for racism and explicitly for anti-Semitism.) On the other hand, noted the student, tendencies to racist discrimination against blacks or Arabs are ignored or treated lightly.
There is, as Boniface expresses it, deux poids, deux mesures – two weights, two measures. It is widely felt and widely resented. TWTM could be the motif of Boniface’s book.
Arabs and blacks often refrain from reporting abuse or assaults with the prospect that the authorities will not pursue the complaint. Women wearing the veil are perennially harassed and physically attacked. A young pregnant woman is punched in the stomach; she loses her child. There is perennial use of the term ‘dirty Arab’. Arabs and blacks are perennially harassed by police because of their appearance and presumed ethnicity. Islamophobia escalates, with implicit support from CRIF and from pro-Israel celebrities such as Alain Finkielkraut. (Finkielkraut was recently beamed up to the celestial Académie française; his detractors were labelled anti-Semites.)
Salutary is the perennial humiliation experienced by Mustapha Kessous, journalist for Le Monde. Boniface notes that Kessous ‘possesses a perfect mastery of social conventions and of the French language’. Not sufficient it appears. On a cycle or in a car he is stopped by police who ask of him if he has stolen it. He visits a hospital but is asked, ‘where is the journalist’? He attends court and is taken to be the defendant, and so on.
In 2005, a Franco-Palestinian Salah Hamouri was arrested at a checkpoint and eventually indicted on a trumped up charge of involvement in the murder of a rabbi. In 2008 he took a ‘plea bargain’ and was given 7 years in jail. He was released in 2011 in the group exchange with the release of French IDF soldier Gilad Shalit. In France, Shalit is treated with reverence, though a voluntary enrolee of an occupying force. Hamouri’s plight has been treated with indifference. TWTM.
In March 2010, Said Bourarach, an Arab security guard at a shop in Bobigny, is murdered by a group of young men, Jewish and known to the police. They get off, meanwhile alleging that the murdered guard had thrown anti-Semitic insults. In December 2013, young Jews beat up an Arab waiter for having posted a quenelle (an anti-authority hand gesture ridiculously claimed to be replicating a Nazi stance and thus anti-Semite) on a social network. The event received no coverage.
TWTM. The media is partly responsible. The authorities in their manifest partisanry are partly responsible. The lobby is heavily responsible.
Boniface is, rightly, obsessed with the promise of universalism formally rooted in Republican France. He objects to the undermining of this imperative by those who defend indefensible policies of Israeli governments and who divert and distort politics in France towards that end.
For his pains, Boniface is denigrated and marginalized. Evidently, he declines to accept defeat. Hence La France malade …
Evan Jones is a retired political economist from the University of Sydney. He can be reached at:evan.jones@sydney.edu.au”
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/09/the-israel-lobby-and-french-politics/
__________
Though Olivier’s views on Charlie Hebdo are not that far from the truth, if one excepts the newspaper’s former editor in chief and neocon journalists like Caroline Fourest (read below another of my comments in reply to ‘wnt’), his analysis is typically that of a proud representative of “la gauche caviar” (aka wealthy social-democrats, now in power).
The most telling example of this is this next quote :
“They fought for equality and justice, with the support of many on the left of the political spectrum, for instance during the 1983 Marche des [B]eurs. […] So the question is: how has a fraction of the French youth (of either white, black or Arabic origin) become so responsive to fundamentalism? The answer to this question cannot be directly traced back to “the West bombing Muslim countries”. I think it has primarily to do with the complete failure of the Republic to deliver on its promises of Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité.”
Quite some conservative editorialists are now arguing this failure wasn’t one at all, rather a cynical political game on the part of the left wing, during the 80’s, and I think for once they might be right : at the same time it was courting the ‘Beur’ electorate, it was maneuvering to get the Front National (the far right) to such a level it would intoxicate the democratic right. These are known facts : there were several meetings between pres. Mitterrand and FN leader Le Pen (the father of the party’s current president).
Why is it not a failure, according to those editorialists ? Because, contrary to what Olivier says, “many on the left of the political spectrum” didn’t “support” this new emancipation; they instigated it and instrumentalized these youths, knowing full well they wouldn’t be able to deliver, and, even if they did, they wouldn’t benefit politically from the Beurs’ gentrification.
What French social-democracy is now coping with is actually a double blowback : on the one hand, daughter Le Pen has been capitalizing on the gift Mitterrand made to her father, and is now at the castle’s frontdoor, on the other hand, many of the sons of yesterday’s duped youths don’t want to follow the same path, and would rather be duped by some “new” doctrine.
I think this was worth clarifying…
I just want to comment on one thing (emphasis is mine):
If by secular, we mean rejection of the Sacred, then there’s no such thing as Secular Islam; the term is then oxymoron; Islam is about integrating and uniting with the Reality that encompasses and permeates all other realities. One can refer to It as the “Divine Reality”.
However, if by secular, we mean acceptance of ALL religions, allowing ALL of them to equally function within the constitution and the laws of the land, then there are indeed versions of Islam that are fully compatible with “the Republic”; some of them go even further and point out that ALL religions have the same inherent Truth at their Centers. See “The Transcendent Unity of Religions” by Frithjof Schuon, at http://www.amazon.com/Frithjof-Schuon/e/B001H6O0XE/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1
Interestingly, overwhelming majorities of Muslims who live in the West have figured out a way to practice their religions without violating the constitutions and the laws of the land, without any familiarization with the advanced doctrine of Transcendent Unity of Religions.
Also, philosophically, the term “fundamentalism” doesn’t really apply to Islam. Anyone who uses this term for Islam is examining it through the thick glasses of a Christian phenomenon.
In any case, Muslims have their own terms to refer to these “fundamentalist” currents in their midst: “Salafism”, “Wahhabism”, “Puritanical Salafism”, and the classical term, “Kharijites/Kharijite-ism”.
Is not ‘secularism’, in truth, rooted in a religious viewpoint itself? There cannot be simply a philosophical void at the centre of political power, so if it’s not a prescribed religion inhabiting this place then what is there there in this so called ‘secular society’? What is the underlying philosophical thought that forms the foundation of modern Western (and increasingly global) society? Is it not Materialism, as perhaps most clearly expressed in the religion of Neoclassical Economics?
I say that there is no ‘non-religious’ standpoint, atheism is a religious position, and there is no collective escape from religious questions- if we are to live in mass societies then we have to have some shared understanding of what a human being actually is, in the hope that this can support a notion of sovereignty -especially now as our future looks so uncertain and we apparently need to organise globally if we are to survive.
When we consider the notion of secularism, we are deceiving ourselves that there is some neutral, non-committal position that we can collectively take with regard the big questions of existence. We are deceived because materialist science has provided so much common ground on all the other, smaller questions that come to us, and many people have been led to believe that this is sufficient grounds to base a social system upon. I think that history and increasingly the present show us that this is not the case.
We must understand that Materialism- in its basic ontology as well as it’s manifestations, is ultimately antithetical to all philosophical and religious thought that regards humans fundamentally as embodied minds (rather than robots caught in an illusion).
No, it’s a position on religion, namely, a lack of belief in god(s).
Is atheism a lack of belief in god(s) or a belief that there is no god? I have seen dictionary entries defining it both ways, but stand by my assertion that it is a positive assertion that there is no god; ‘a lack of belief’ could be described using a number of different words (e.g.agnosticism) and that would leave the term ‘atheism’ as non-specific.
If atheism is understood as a belief that there is no god (rather than a lack of belief in god) then it is a fairly acceptable generalisation (I accept that there are exceptions) to say that it is equatable with Materialism.
If you want to explore the question of whether Materialism stands on sure ground (metaphysically speaking) I think that would speak more to the point I was trying to make. I am one saying that it doesn’t, and that we have reached a societal crisis point precisely because the core of the dominant worldview doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
My gut feeling is that those who reject ‘god’ know what they reject.
That is, they have formulated an idea, or ideas, about who/what ‘god’ is, and they’ve reject THAT.
Do I have a point?
My feeling is that some of us Sufis have also rejected some atheists’ understandings of ‘god’.
-Sufi Muslim
‘My gut feeling is that those who reject ‘god’ know what they reject.
That is, they have formulated an idea, or ideas, about who/what ‘god’ is, and they’ve reject THAT.’
I would agree and it is for that reason that I think that agnosticism is a more intellectually honest position for the non-committed/ non believer- I grew tired many moons ago of atheists telling me what ‘god’ is and then rubbishing their own straw men.
Personal beliefs aside, my main point is that in a society with a singular focal point of power and a system of law which has to be based on an agreed moral framework, the idea of secularism as a sort of alternative to ‘a belief in something’ ( i.e. a neutral space set apart from existential questions and answers) is illusory. Where I live, biblical Christianity has gradually been replaced by Materialist Scientism over the past 150 years.
Can Materialism as an organising philosophical principle of society accommodate other worldviews, including religious worldviews? Can it support humanity at all?
For me, it is the former, which is often cited as “weak atheism.” An affirmative claim that no god exists would be “strong atheism.”
Most of the atheists I’ve met aren’t. Most of them deify the state, being statists.
-Mona
‘For me, it is the former, which is often cited as “weak atheism.” An affirmative claim that no god exists would be “strong atheism.” ‘
These definitions make sense at an individual level, such that I know people who would describe themselves as ‘atheist’ and mean it in the weak sense and live without spending much time exploring the questions of existence, and, I know others who also describe themselves as ‘atheist’ but whom I consider religiously motivated in spreading a specific worldview (that being materialist scientism).
But I argue that at the societal level, the ‘weak’ meaning breaks down. Society and collective effort have a basis and a direction, and this cannot be formulated from ‘a lack of belief in something’, but must come from a definite belief in something.
We live in times when a Materialistic understanding of humans and the universe is replacing (and has pretty much supplanted) what came before, and many things are being re-arranged in human affairs as a result, from the moral framework that underpins our legal system, to the extreme fetishism of techno-utopians.
Has power ever been aligned with ‘a lack of belief’ with regards to existential questions?
“Most of the atheists I’ve met aren’t. Most of them deify the state, being statists.” – Bill
I’ve observed the obverse – most statists already own government, are in government, or are beholding to the government that they deify. Although deify seems really too strong a word, in that these 1% don’t worship government, per se, they wish to preserve the current status quo which allows their success and furthers their greed at the expense of the other 99%.
““I say let the world go to hell, but I should always have my tea.” – Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Notes from Underground
For lack of evidence, I reject the existence of a personal deity(s) who intervenes either in nature or in the affairs of humankind or, or who cares what any individual on this earth does in terms of “sin.”
The preposterousness of various religious claims about these personal deities and their purported powers, coupled with a complete lack of evidence for any of it, compels my lack of belief.
Yes, atheism is a religious position. But rather than being a lack of a belief in deities, it is a belief that they do not exist. There’s no point in either hypothesis, because neither is experimentally testable. The proper scientific position regarding all untestable hypotheses is agnosticism.
“Yes, atheism is a religious position.” – Mirimir
No, it’s not even a “belief system” as you imply, any more than evolution or global warming is a belief system, as some claim.
Atheism, evolution, and global warming, among many other things, have nothing to do with any religion at all. They are all about what determining what is the best, universal, same-for-everyone evidence that is available at the time that provides data to support that particular position.
Also, these are self-correcting paradigms, in that in an evidence-based world view they demand that should the data/evidence change, then the old position would be invalid, and the new position would then be supported.
“Facts are too busy being true to worry about how you feel about them.” – Dan Wells, Fragments
@Sillyputty
You’re missing my point. Atheism amounts to taking a position on a hypothesis that’s not experimentally testable. That makes it a belief, arguably of a religious nature. Agnosticism, in contrast, is an acknowledgement that hypotheses about religious issues are not experimentally testable. If you can formulate an hypothesis concerning a religious question, such as the existence (or nonexistence) of deity X, which is falsifiable, please share. By the way, much of cosmology is, in my humble opinion, little more than untestable speculation. By training, I’m a hard-core experimentalist.
I understand, agree, and have said so myself. But I don’t say it much any longer because that battle has been lost. Only yesterday a leftist who disagrees with me about understanding Charlie Hebdo accused me of “free speech fundamentalism.” Meh. I let it slide.
SufiMuslim, could you tell me if, apart from power thirst and strategic differences, there’s also a (sub)religious explanation to AQ and ISIL apparently being hermetic to each other. They’re both Sunni, of course, but where, if at all, do the distinctions you mention about “Salafism”, “Wahhabism”, “Puritanical Salafism” come in ? According to testimonies from Western Syria-fighters who’ve returned home, when they weren’t fighting, they were parked in fancy villas on the Turkish border, where they were playing Playstation and hanging out half naked in swimming pools. Since that doesn’t fit within my idea of puritanism, I’d rule out the third of your options. But what about the rest ? And what about the Database ? And is the red line between both organizations that clear : are they really fighting each other on the ground, or are they sometimes, for instance in light of the coalition attacks, collaborating ?…
Scholars, like Dr. Abou El Fadl, have delved into these three currents within Islam at a scholarly level at great deal.
See http://www.scholarofthehouse.org/index.html
He elaborates his thoughts on these currents in some new ways in his book, Reasoning with God.
Apparently, Salafism was considered more reasonable than Wahhabism, which received a lot of bad publicity due to their interpretations and actions. So they decided to piggy back on Salafism in the middle of the last century, and, from their marriage, emerged an entity, which Dr. Fadl calls “Puritanical Salafism”.
It’s been reported that there have in fact been those terrorists who may not be that particular about their religions, but the currents they join nevertheless interpret and apply their religions as the Puritanical Salafists do.
For example, they may not be particular about the basic tenets of Islam, but they nevertheless approach sacred texts to interpret and apply certain punishments in the manner in which these texts present them, with no attempt to understand the historical contexts of them or the purpose behind them.
To them, these punishments are to be taken literally, are timeless and must be carried out. They also feel that these punishments are where the so-called Islamization begins.
A shame that mention wasn’t made of the many documented interventions of para-politics; state and private intelligence networks infiltrating groups in the Middle East and in the West with the specific intent of radicalising, funding, equipping and training of covert proxy forces.
If we are to have the history of this, we must have the whole history.
Thanks for posting that letter! In conjunction with ghost0’s response, it puts all of this in clear context.
The Enlightenment is ongoing, and its outcome remains uncertain.
Remarkable. Or is it?
Among those involved in these massacres was one Maurice Papon. He had also been an active nazi collaborator who had sent numerous Jews to the concentration camps. Oddly enough, he was a member of the French government in the late seventies/early eighties… Not until 1998 was he tried and convicted. Had he sworn some kind of secret oath making him untouchable ? Was he in a position to implicate other well-placed establishment figures with a dirty past ? Who knows ?
And that’s not all : ten years ago, the French Parliament voted a law in relation to the country’s colonial past.
Its first section states : “The Nation expresses its gratitude to the women and men who contributed to France’s undertakings (*) in its former ‘départements’ (**) of Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia and Indochina.”
Often referred to by the media as the law stressing the “positive aspects of colonization”, it goes on saluting the memory of all the French “victims” (both civilians and members of the military) of the turmoil surrounding those countries’ progress towards independence.
Only in its second section does it “associate” the local “individuals and civilian populations who were slaughtered or subjected to acts of violence” during as well as after the Algerian war (***), or during various combats in Tunisia and Morocco.
http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000444898
Surreal. Or is it ?
Even more bitterly ironic is the fact one of the French torturers who served in Algeria is longtime FN president Le Pen, the current far-right leader’s father…
____________
(*) The word used is ‘oeuvre’, which imparts a sense of greatness.
(**) The French territory is divided into regions and ‘départements’. Paris and its surroundings, for instance, are one such ‘département’.
(***) The Evian peace agreement notwithstanding, these massacres continued. The law ackowledges that fact, but doesn’t directly blame the French State for them. Who was responsible, it leaves in the middle.
Europe’s servile relationship to Washington should be endless fun for cartoonists insisting on their freedom of expression.
____
Mr Greenwald wrote:
{Quote:
“When we originally discussed publishing this article to make these points, our intention was to commission two or three cartoonists to create cartoons that mock Judaism and malign sacred figures to Jews the way Charlie Hebdo did to Muslims. But that idea was thwarted by the fact that no mainstream western cartoonist would dare put their name on an anti-Jewish cartoon, even if done for satire purposes, because doing so would instantly and permanently destroy their career, at least.”
End Quote}
Although not a “mainstream western cartoonist”, you should have commissioned Mr. Carlos Latuff since he is a freelance artist. His satire surpasses most that I have seen (Mutt and Jeff stuff he ain’t). Early on during the beginning articles on this website, several commenters suggested that TI hire a cartoonist. A satirical cartoonist would be an essential addition to TI’s repertoire.
Why not do your fellow Brazilian — and thousands of readers — a favor by hiring him full-time, or at least commissioning him on a regular basis? How gratifying it would be to see Hillary/Bill, Cheney, Bush, Boehner, McCain, Obama, Kerry, Rep. P.T. King, Alexander, Rogers, Clapper, Brennan, Comey, Netanyahu, and many, many other deserving ‘subjects’ lampooned daily by Mr. Latuff’s wit and ink. His artist’s color palette will have a never-ending supply of ‘colorful’ public figurines for him to mock with his grotesque caricatures of them and their absurd actions and comments.
____
Is having a big nose “Something Jewish” as suggested by the cartoons above? Do Mr. Greenwald’s facial features make him “Jewish”? How about Mr. Dershowitz?
{Quote:
“No,” says Relethford. Apparently, having a huge honker has nothing to do with being a Red Sea pedestrian. “Being Jewish is not a matter of biology. It’s a matter of culture,” Relethford explains. Biology and culture do overlap somewhat since, to be considered a Jew, your mother generally needs to be Jewish. But that still leaves papa. Take the example of Prof. Relethford himself: “I’m Jewish, yet I have classic Northwestern European features,” says our man in academe. Explanation? The good professor converted to Judaism when he married.
So, is the super-sized Semitic snout just a myth? According to Relethford, “Nasal shape is very much influenced by what type of environment your ancestors found themselves in.” And since Jewish genetic ancestry is mixed, you can’t blame the tribe for your prodigious proboscis. “If you look at any population of Jews,” says Relethford, “you’re going to find Jews with large noses, Jews with small noses. It varies.”
End Quote}
http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/522_jews_and_their_noses.htm
[Safe link verified via URLVoid Website Reputation Checker Tool; q.v.]
…”huge honker”; “super-sized Semitic snout”; “prodigius proboscis”.
In these phrases, I see insult and mockery using free speech as a wrapper. Whilst one might be all for free speech, it appears that free speech itself as a concept, is not above abuse.
I agree with Glenn (as I often do) as far there needing to be a balance in the publishing of political satire. If there is a claim that we’re a free and democratic, then comic strips need to be able to blaspheme all walks of life equally.
These 10 or so leaders are all bullshit artists because they all terrorize and jail journalists.
A January 5, 2015 headline in the Jerusalem Post
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Libermans-secret-meeting-in-Paris-was-not-with-Abbas-rival-Dahlan-386614:
“Liberman’s secret meeting in Paris was not with Abbas rival Dahlan”
From the article http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Libermans-secret-meeting-in-Paris-was-not-with-Abbas-rival-Dahlan-386614
“In the meeting last month at the Raphael Hotel in the French capital, Mossad personnel were in attendance, which raises the likelihood that Liberman met with a prominent figure from the Arab or Muslim world. The meeting reportedly took place without Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s approval.
All of the people who were exposed to information about Liberman’s trip were made to sign strict confidentiality agreements, Maariv-Hashavua has further learned.”
The meeting took place in Paris, on December 25, 2014. No mention of who the meeting WAS with; fine journalism. Presumably, the meeting also did NOT include Santa Claus, Jesus, or the Easter Bunny, though none of their representatives immediately returned calls seeking comment. I’d be OK with subjecting Liberman (aka Lieberman) to ‘mild physical discomfort’, if that would help; or not.
Uhhh Glen, last time i checked muslim was not a race. Being a jew is. Think about it.
Absolutely brilliant and astute piece. Should be required reading for everyone, but unfortunately, most don’t have the intellectual or moral courage to even attempt to understand the principles advocated here.
Whats the point of this? I’m American….make fun of anybody….that’s what freedom is all about. I am Christian. And I love Life of Brian—-the Monty Python movie mocking Christianity…..lighten up world….if you don’t like it—-turn the page.
The right to free speech, in America anyway, is about the GOVERNMENT not suppressing Free Speech. The perpetrators in France weren’t suppressing free speech they were committing a crime, namely murder. People commit murder for all sorts of reasons. It doesn’t really matter why. Murder is murder. If they had killed these people while robbing a bank, what difference would it have made?
As I understand it, the French Govt. shut this paper down once for offending the state. THAT, was suppressing free speech.
If you deliberately provoke people, you get what you get.
A lot. We wouldn’t be wondering right now if a German paper that ran the Charlie Hebdo cartoons was firebombed for that reason. And famous cartoonist Robert Crumb, wouldn’t have just drawn his own cartoon blaspheming Mohammed in solidarity with his slaughtered colleagues. If threats to kill cartoonists for blaspheming Mohammed had not been ongoing since at least the Danish experience in ’06 — and coercing media into conforming their publishing decisions out of fear for at least that long — this Charlie Hebdo matter would have the same notoriety as a bank robbery.
comparing the attack on CH to a bank robbery is misdirection. The notoriety is on par with 9/11, the London bombing, the Boston Bombing et al. It’s the same germ. CH is not a mutation. Eliding the political character of the crime is willfully obtuse.
I beg to differ. 9/11 and the london bombings were terrorism based on random killing of the population. That was terrorism. this was murder of specific people. so specific that they only murdered certain employees. thats not really terrorism; its a crime as Si1ver1ock had previously stated.
Murder is when humans are unlawfully killed by other humans.
Lawful killing is performed by states against soldiers during wartime, or against lawfully convicted citizens via capitol punishment, etc. – therefore 9/11, London bombings, Charlie Hebdo were all murders.
‘misdirection’ was in reference to the larger political container of the crime (vs. a robbery), but I think you’re right, that’s a fair distinction.
Maybe. But you punish people for their crimes not for their politics.
But you punish people for their crimes not for their politics.
That would be ideal, but history, and even current events, would argue that your assumption has little merit.
For historical example see the McCarthy hearings of the ’50s.
For more recent examples on might more easily look overseas to imprisonments that the US government might castigate on the surface, while likely admiring and envying on a deeper level. On that note, it behooves us to remember that Edward Snowden received political asylum from Russia.
The McCarthy hearings were political hearings not judicial proceedings. Legal sanctions are imposed by a court of law using due process. It is the ideal to which the American system of justice aspires. My argument is just that, an argument based on sound legal reasoning. If I were actually a lawyer I could probably cite cases and precedents. Contrary to popular opinion, the American legal system is not arbitrary, but based on legal principles. As it is, I would make the same argument to any American court. It is the sort of thing an American judge would say in his/her instructions to a jury.
“Contrary to popular opinion, the American legal system is not arbitrary” – Si1ver1ock
Yes, it is, in the sense that while it’s supposed to be based on legal principles, the results are anything but reasonable. This can easily be seen in the recent dispositions of no criminality found/prosecuted for the illegal acts of the CIA torture, the war crimes by numerous government officials, the big banks larceny and fraud, and most recently the legal attitude towards General Patraeus, who leaked classified documents to his lover and is now being coddled by his peers because “he’s suffered enoygh already.” (via D. Feinstein)
Contrast this with the same “not arbitrary” legal system with the over-criminalization of minor drug offenses, the threatened and actual prosecution of whistle-blowers and journalists for telling the truth, and the crack-down on minorities protesting peacefully.
These two groups are certainly not being treated by our justice system with the same standards throughout – those wealthier and better connected to the government/political/corporate class have almost no chance of being meaningfully prosecuted under US laws, while those unconnected with that upper tier of citizens are almost guaranteed the chance to experience our justice systems and its prisons, despite the supposed protections of the “un-arbitrary” legal system in America today.
“If you deliberately provoke people, you get what you get.” – Si1ver1ock
In other words, they deserved to die? Really? Isn’t death the ultimate silencer?
“The perpetrators in France weren’t suppressing free speech they were committing a crime” – Si1ver1ock
Clearly, the perpetrators were doing both.
“…to hell with the censors! Give me knowledge or give me death!” – Kurt Vonnegut
Free speech has limits even in the United States there is something called the fighting words doctrine.
The fighting words doctrine, in United States constitutional law, is a limitation to freedom of speech as protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
In 1942, the U.S. Supreme Court established the doctrine by a 9–0 decision in Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire. It held that “insulting or ‘fighting words,’ those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace” are among the “well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech the prevention and punishment of [which] … have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words
Murder isn’t an answer to “fighting words” unless you are a psychopath, even in America. Even then, this is in France not America. Even then, since you didn’t reply coherently, I’ll repeat what I said earlier:
“If you deliberately provoke people, you get what you get.” – Si1ver1ock
In other words, they deserved to die? Really? Isn’t death the ultimate silencer?
“The perpetrators in France weren’t suppressing free speech they were committing a crime” – Si1ver1ock
Clearly, the perpetrators were doing both.
That case and standard is all but dead. Without formally reversing itself, the Supreme Court has narrowed the application to the point of all but ignoring it.
GG has a point, showing offensive cartoons would still be offensive. But the meaning has changed to be a protest against murder. I’ll bet most of the people advocating publishing the cartoons hadn’t seen them, believing that whatever is in them, publishing would be a protest against murder.
GG says criticizing Israel is taboo. This is nonsense. Everybody does it all the time. Supporting Islamic terrorism is taboo.
GG implied through the link that criticizing Israel put Sami Al-Arian in prison. Not so; Advocating murder (“Death to Israel”) got Sami Al-Arian fired. He was imprisoned for contempt of court in very complex legal situation.
GG supports the idea that Charlie Hebdo should criticize everybody with “Equal Opportunity”. Nonsense. Jihad is an enemy of France. The Jews are not. Not even the radical Jews. (Not even Glenn Greenwald).
GG should remember that Jihad is his enemy too.
Your entire comment is vapid bullshit, but the above is particularly pernicious (and false) nonsense. Glenn wrote at length about the Al-Arian persecution at Salon:
To my ongoing disgust, our Supreme Court ruled constitutional the statute prohibiting “material support” for the most tangential and innocuous assistance to any organization deemed a “terrorist” group by the State Department. On that hill, free speech has partially died in this nation, and no one has suffered more for it than Sami Al-Arian and his family.
I abhor the hypocrisy of political correctness (PC) and I agree with Glenn’s point here, but just because someone makes a valid point, doesn’t necessarily mean that there isn’t subtext that’s subverts the issue in another direction that is necessarily legitimate either. Interesting that only Anti Israel or anti jewish satire is used to play ‘fair’ in his examples… Someone quoted Howard Zinn in the comments about how whatever we choose to say and not say is a judgment because it’s always picking facts that we want to highlight and those we wish to ignore… I also find the PC anti-Israel attitude offensive, (and saying so does not mean I condone everything Israel does- that’s part of the Anti-Israel PC trap too..) Interesting how in the comments there is the use of the term “Terrorist” which everyone wants to lay claim to for any purposes of violence that they don’t deem acceptable… and forming ‘equivalencies’ that don’t necessarily hold up… I’m sure anyone reading this will ‘take offense’ at whatever they decide I’m referring to here, since these tactics apply on ALL SIDES of any political discussion.
The state of our global community is the fault of the Jews, Muslims, Christians, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists,…. Blacks, Whites, Yellows, Reds and Browns.. I don’t say ‘check your privilege’ (because I find that offensive too…) and because I think we are all guilty unless we check our bias and our judgment, even those we hold holy, those we believe protect us and those that we think we need to survive. Check how you think another is at fault and use it as a mirror to your own heart.
see:
The Rise of the Police State and the Absence of Mass Opposition
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=1904
Author Deepa Kumar on the imperial roots of anti-Muslim sentiment
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/07/author-deepa-kumar-on-the-imperial-roots-of-anti-muslim-sentiment
Media obsesses over ‘free speech’ in Charlie Hebdo case while ignoring Israeli targeting of journalists
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/ignoring-targeting-journalists
Get this book:
http://catalog.sevenstories.com/products/terrorism-theirs-and-ours
If someone uses a nonoffensive vocabulary that person is considerate, not PC. If someone has a heavy-handed agenda that person is narrow-minded, not PC.
Not the “What about all others?” again. It should be more than obvious that a group whose over 90% is in solidarity with a nuclear-armed terrorist rogue state occupying and “ethnically cleansing” an illegally invaded territory is the appropriate target of the counter-example of satire in this particular case. Besides, “anti-Israel attitude” is anything but PC: it brings general opprobrium, loss of job, hounding by the powers that be and a series of other plagues, not even mentioning posts like yours.
You completely miss the point. When Jews are mocked by cartoons, they don’t go killing the cartoonists.
Because of the way the Islamists have reacted to the cartoons, we have a *duty* to publish them far and wide. If we censor ourselves, the Islamic extremists will see that their strategy of intimidation works and they’ll continue to attack journalists and cartoonists.
It’s not the content of the cartoons that makes it imperative to republish them. It’s the reaction to the cartoonists.
Apparently Greenwald didn’t do enough research because if he had he would have known that Charlie Hebdo very much punctured taboos involving Jews and Israel:
http://listverse.com/2015/01/09/10-incendiary-moments-in-the-history-of-charlie-hebdo/
[See #7]
In fact, their ‘Intouchables 2′ cartoon seems to be making the exact same point you have here.
I agree with most of this, however:
Charlie Hebdo are not ‘bigoted’. So many of their allegedly racist cartoons are described as so because of lack of contextual awawareness of the publication outside of France. They are a far left-wing, anti-racist, pro-immigration paper. Here are explanations for some of their cartoons http://www.quora.com/What-was-the-context-of-Charlie-Hebdos-cartoon-depicting-Boko-Haram-sex-slaves-as-welfare-queens
Secondly, drawing racist, homophobic and misogynistic cartoons is not the same as drawing a cartoon of a man who may have lived 1400 years ago. He’s a historical figure, Muslims cannot copyright his image nor can they trademark his name. A religion is a belief, an idea, an ideology. Being black is not a choice, being ethnically Jewish is not a choice, being Arab is not a choice.
As an ex-Muslim, I’m seriously offended by a lot of the Quran’s passages, I’m offended by its prophet’s actions, I’m offended by Quranic literalists spouting their views. Would I ever call for the Quran to be censored? I’m well-aware of the marginalisation of Muslims, within that context, I am one. That does not mean Islam as an ideology is off-bounds. Neither does it mean Judaism is off-bounds, I’m sorry that many people think Judaism isn’t fair game the way Islam is, but that does not mean Islam is less worthy of criticism. It would be ridiculous to say capitalism, communism, fascism, socialism, libertarianism and anarchism are off-bounds to mockery simply because their adherents may be offended. And unlike those ideologies, Islam makes very specific claims for itself, as do other religions. The fact that so many believe their religions are the incorruptible word of god mean they are precisely the things that need mocking the most.
Of course, some use anti-Islam sentiment as a vehicle to attack Muslims in general. We must not stand for this. And this is where we differ from the far-right. They attack Muslims, we attack Islam. You cannot arbitrarily conflate the two.
Just an innocent question : Besides bashing and ridiculizing Muslims over and over again, did the honorable cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo ever deal with Jews in the same way ? Pls excuse my ignorance, but I’ve never read that paper.
All the time. And they made fun of the Bush reaction to 9/11 relentlessly. But again, the object of ridicule is nearly always the extreme right wing or the most dogmatic opinions. Like Colbert Report or the New Yorker cover with the Obamas as fist-bumping militants, the object of the joke is usually bigotry itself.
The reason for the bombing is not yet known.
Those who expected an impassioned and unqualified defense of free speech from Greenwald will be much more satisfied with Jonathan Turley:
Turley is aware of the selective application of free speech principles (Greenwald’s main concern here), but, on this occasion (when eight journalists were slaughtered), thought it warranted only a paragraph:
If France Wants To “Stand With Charlie Hebdo,” It Must Stand First With Free Speech
Depends. The French don’t particularly pride themselves on upholding free speech, and for them the issue is more about the French dedication to radical secularism and the glories of blasphemy.
Anyway, Glenn’s quite aware the French aren’t paragons of free speech: “France’s censorship demands to Twitter are more dangerous than ‘hate speech'” http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/02/free-speech-twitter-france
@ Barncat,
I started to post the link to Professor Turley’s article but thought I better search the comment section first on the off-chance that someone might have already posted it since it was exceptionally apropos. Links to Turley’s blogs/columns are fairly rare from within TI articles and comments, although his legal commentaries are most often ‘must-reads’.
Free Speech has always been on a conditional basis. I think however that this is something bread into human behavior. We are not likely to defend opinions we find offensive (How often do we come to the defense of neo-nazi/neo-fascist ideas?) I do think that our western media outlets and our governments use this tendency to incite anger against a particular enemy to which we are at war with.
This is why we see such hostile reactions in the media against North Korea with the Sony hacks, and the Islamic terrorists in CH attacks. These are our “enemies” and so the popular opinion of the public can be easily manipulated to propagate anti-Islamic prejudices and stoke anti-Islamic fears. It is much harder to do the same with opinions the general public disagree with such as antisemitism, but were we to be suddenly attacked by Israel and Jewish terrorists than well the story and narrative in the news would quickly reverse course. The general public would likely not even remember that yesterday they were our allies and we defended them with a powerful taboo on antisemitism.
This all amounts to whether the government and news-media can make a story fit a narrative or not. Islamic Activists and their speach will continue to be oppressed in the West as long as it is convenient to the elite and the story they wish to weave to the public. Today’s allies could easily be tomorrow’s enemy.
Any opportunity to smear, smudge and destroy the Jews and Israel, Glenn–you take and run w/it. Have you even ever shtupped a fellow Jew?
Perhaps you could tell your old paper the Guardian. If individual statements or comments represent the true “hidden” nature of the UKIP then why is continued and consistent appalling behaviour by some Muslims in Europe, Africa, Asia and Australia not representative of Islam? If a UKIP party member burns a mosque or a synagogue will we all have to drive a #illridewithUKIP the next day? The manifesto of the UKIP does not mention the subjugation of women, the murder of atheists, or how to treat your slaves. The Koran is pretty clear on these things.
This article by Glenn Greenwald is a real game changer! He has broken through the pervasive taboo that has been in place in western society that one never every criticizes or mocks Jews, Judaism or Israel. Many people have had the careers and live destroyed by simple saying the “wrong” thing about the Jews. I realize that he has not done this to mock or disrespect the Jews, but to highlight the incredible hypocrisy of our society regarding our so called freedom of speech. It is going to be interesting to see the reaction to this article and the cartoons. I hope he’s ready for a shit-storm!
Yeah, a real shit-storm. Let’s see how many death threats he gets over the anti-semitic cartoons.
Zero.
To the extent Jews enjoy any privileges in western society, those privileges were, to put it mildly, hard-earned.
I am confident Glenn will survive, literally and figuratively.
Thanks Glenn for this breath of fresh air amid all the rhetoric about “solidarity” with “Charlie Hebdo”….and the selective “freedom of speech” that is allowed in the west….i would not be surprised however, if you were attacked furiously for expressing these truths….
to write this column is an act of bravery in a world where whatever Israel does is accepted as right and acceptable, and whatever Muslims of any kind do is spat upon….esp. if they support the Palestinian cause….thank you for publishing this!!
Say it like it is. Great article.
This is by far the most idiotic article I have read so far this year. Though I am sure by the end the year, this will still be true. While Greenwald is typically known for writing hit pieces, this one surpasses even that. It’s truly astonishing to see an idiocy like this being published. This article is not worth a bottle of spit.
I should have known as soon as I saw Glenn Greenwald that this would be nothing more than a collectivist rant from a freedom-hating idiot. Of course, he fails to mention that he’s not afraid of actually being killed by Jews, or that it’s OK to publish a crucifix in urine and call it art, or that the Dixie Chicks never faced any real death threats. Heck, the fact that this mainstream publication is showing these stupid cartoons and is afraid to show any anti-Muslim cartoons is telling. Greenwald should move to ISIS to live among his fellow progressives.
A long-winded (and thus ineffective) apology for murderers. With this crap you make us question your whole enterprise. A day later, events have already overtaken your bitter, crabbed argument, with world leaders, NPR and other observers calling for comprehensive, humane efforts to cure these ills (in which you seem to view with such distasteful relish).
by far the best article on the subject I have seen so far. As I expected
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/abbassyed/homophobic-islam
One of the cartoons that set off the attackers was that of the Prophet Muhammad kissing another man. I am sure everyone on here is well aware of the dismal human rights records many Muslim countries have against homosexuals and after reading the passages of the Koran as outlined in the blog below, it should come as no surprise. As an atheist and bisexual male no one has ever attempted too silence me when criticizing the oppression, bigotry and hate in christian countries like Russia, Uganda, and in the United States where religious organizations spend millions of dollars paying off politician’s, too pass there bigoted agenda. However if you criticize Islam for the same thing you are met with possible censorship ( the attempt too ban Bill Maher at Berkley is the perfect example)
Wow!
Pope Francis and Glenn Greenwald tell it like it is
My two favorite people both an example for the world to follow.
Thank you Glenn for speaking out
In Glenn’s rush to condemn anything as racist and anti-Islam he doesn’t even take the time to think about what he’s criticizing. Consider the cartoon “mocking the African sex slaves of Boko Haram as welfare queens” and think about that for two seconds. Can kidnapped sex slaves in Nigeria get welfare? Is it even remotely thinkable that kidnapped sex slaves in Nigeria can get welfare? Are kidnapped sex slaves not living a horrendous existence of suffering completely outside of a system that could even provide welfare? How is it possible to mock something that everyone with a few functioning brain cells knows doesn’t come close to existing in reality? If you did two minutes of research instead of just being a reactionary you would know that the French have a tradition of mixing news stories in their cartoons, which is what is happening in that one. The two stories in the news at the time were the girls who were taken as slaves by Boko Haram and, back in French domestic politics, conservatives criticizing the welfare system and people receiving welfare while trying to rescind welfare, as conservatives are wont to do. So Charlie Hedbo took the two stories and made an extreme example of the conservatives viewpoint. Conservatives criticize poor, desperate people on the fringes of the system for receiving welfare, so Hedbo mocked that opinion by showing hyperbole of it: what conservatives would do to the poorest of the poor in the most desperate circumstances. But it was obviously not mocking the sex slaves because, duh, sex slaves can’t get welfare. The cartoon was mocking the conservative viewpoint of welfare and the people receiving it. Hedbo has a mostly left-leaning bent, if irreverent and anarchistic. Only the most intellectually dishonest and lazy person would use that cartoon to say Hedbo was being racist or bigoted. It was just the opposite.
What about a false false-flag? What I mean by this, is that for example the CIA manipulates someone to such an extend, that this person believes to act by its own volition and in its own cause, yet in reality commits the dirty work of the manipulators and then implicates itself. (Such as by “forgetting their ID in their car with his license plates.) Then the CIA can point to this perpetrator and say: see, he did it. And while its true he did it, but what he wouldn’t say is that it was done according to the manipulators wishes.
Muslims destruction of ancient Buddha statues is ok? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/1326063/After-1700-years-Buddhas-fall-to-Taliban-dynamite.html
Why the world wants apology from Muslims? When they are condemning these bigots and calling justice for these murderers. Go get and kill those who kill others ,irrespective of their belief, religion, and nationality. The world should not forget these paid agents, trained by the west for their own agendas .It’s now their sole responsibility to save the world from these uncontrolled greedy morons.
Childish, beside the point, rationalizations.
It’s more a matter of chose your camp comrade than anything else. But muslims, from a Westerner point of view, attract attention more than Jews. Burka, booze, women rights, interference of religion in what should be the civilian life, etc., they open their flanks to the critic much more than Jews (that’s as per our values). So there is no doubt that you’ll see more stuffs going against Muslims than against Jews.
“63 % of French people support a Palestinian state”, poll. November 28, 2014 by yalibnan 3
There’s a distinct possibility that these terrorists are actually independent Islamist fighters that the West is paying to send a message to France concerning it’s support for the Palestinians. Considering the vast power that AIPAC has long held over the U.S. Congress and White House and the U.S. Right Wing’s long hatred of almost anything French, this was an excellent opportunity to deliver a violent message to the French People and their Government !
“63 % of French people support a Palestinian state”, poll. November 28, 2014 by yalibnan 3
There’s a distinct possibility that these terrorists are actually independent Islamist fighters that the West is paying to send a message to France concerning it’s support for the Palestinians. Considering the vast power that AIPAC has long held over the U.S. Congress and White House and the U.S. Right Wing’s long hatred of almost anything French, this presented an excellent opportunity to deliver a violent message to the French People and their Government !
It should be noted too how incredibly stupid Latuff’s arguments are.
The final cartoon has the Western world laughing at Muslim cartoons but expressing shock and horror at Holocaust cartoons. What hypocrisy!?
But I don’t recall too many people ‘laughing’ at the Muhammad cartoons. It’s not as if he’s a popular target for satire in the West…being that we tend to get murdered for doing so. The subject has come up literally a handful of times over a number of decades and almost solely as commentary on the fact that ONLY Islam can’t take a joke among the religions.
But that’s not even what’s worst about the cartoon. The Holocaust was an historical event involving the killing of some 6 million people. Muhammad was a person (one who even in life couldn’t take a joke, condoning the murder of those who insulted him). What outrage that we don’t joke about the Holocaust like we do with Muhammad!?
“63 % of the French people support a Palestinian state, poll. November 28, 2014″
Were these really strict Islamists fighters or paid Western shills retaliating for the West’s friends in Israel by sending a violent and deadly message to France concerning it’s support of the Palestinians ! A possibility when you consider that AIPAC has for years exercised an extreme level of control over the U.S. Congress and the White House !
This article was terrible and proof in fact that it’s Glenn Greenwald that doesn’t really care about free speech and expression. How hard would it be to simply condemn these killings on their own? No doubt many, if not most of those stating ‘je suis charlie’ are hypocrites, but that’s just politics as it always is.
This is about blasphemy and our right to do so with respect to any religion without being murdered by fundamentalist Muslims. The situation today is such that anyone, anywhere in the world can and very likely will be murdered by fundamentalist Muslims for drawing Muhammad. This apparently does not bother Glenn Greenwald all that much. Greenwald knows damn well too that it’s the blasphemy itself and nothing even remotely to do with racism that provokes Muslim fundamentalists.
On Carlos Latuff, I’m really not sure what your point is here. The very fact that he’s such a prolific cartoonist is proof that his speech is not under threat. Have you stepped on a university campus lately? Have you not noticed all the Muslim and Palestinian groups that make use of his cartoons?
I don’t think that everyone must republish these cartoons in a show of solidarity but this is just a typical case of Greenwald nitpicking at the silly things that get said every time one of these incidents occur.
As others have pointed out too, Charlie Hebdo WAS an equal opportunity offender and it’s incredibly dishonest to suggest otherwise:
http://qz.com/322550/charlie-hebdo-has-had-more-legal-run-ins-with-christians-than-with-muslims/
Once again, Islam sees itself as being uniquely intolerant among the religions.
Paul Tillich: Separation is Sin.
Bergoglio/Francis: Yeehaw! More imperialist violence! Lemme sanctify that Islamophobia and dishonestly call it free speech! Imma bag me an Injun!
The right to blaspheme is free speech, as well as the exercise of the freedom of religion.
No, Mona. Identifying with, and parroting and promoting the lies of the global arsonists and pillagers and pirates of the world, is not free speech.
And again, I encourage you to please take a look at Chris Hedges’ Losing Moses on the Freeway and Deepa Kumar’s Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire.
Vivek, that non sequitur is meaningless.
Blasphemy and free speech protections happens to be a lifelong area of interest for me, and I have read a great deal about it, including “A Brief History of Blasphemy: Liberalism, Censorship and the Satanic Verses.” The right to publish blasphemy in the West has been hardwon, and also implicates religious liberty.
Jesus was not the son of any god, and the notion of the trinity is bullshit — see that? A century ago that statement could have gotten me locked up for blasphemy. Even more recently in the UK if I’d written a poem depicting Jesus as gay.
So, Vivek, I’m not inclined to see vigilantes returning us to fear of committing blasphemy, and will loudly object, as I have been doing. I will encourage the publication of blasphemy in such numbers that the vigilantes see it as futile to attempt to obtain obedience via terror.
You honestly can’t see how this “right to blaspheme” (as praiseworthy as that may be) has played entirely into the hands of the corporatist/militarist/imperialist establishment, and how your zealotry on its behalf serves the oppressors more than the oppressed?
You don’t really have to abandon your principles to see that you might be being (unwittingly) used in this instance by the elite.
If you mean that a bunch of authoritarian jackasses who’d never defend anti-Xtian blasphemy suddenly find themselves manning the barricades of liberty, sure I see that. Fuck them. Survivors at Charlie Hebdo have also been telling these “new friends” to fuck themselves.
@Mona:
Let me try again.
Mona, simply being contrarian isn’t subversive or revolutionary. Unless the criticism is tied to an analysis of capitalism and imperialism, racism (e.g. anti-Black racism or Islamophobia), and class warfare, it’s trivial.
You write, ” I’m not inclined to see vigilantes returning us to fear of committing blasphemy, and will loudly object, as I have been doing. I will encourage the publication of blasphemy in such numbers that the vigilantes see it as futile to attempt to obtain obedience via terror.”
Terrorism and violence and fear works, as the ruling class very well knows. The American public has long been conditioned for silence and is kept misinformed.
It’s imperative that Americans gain an understanding of propaganda, and the need for dissent, anti-fascist disobedience and resistance, and radical analysis, specifically a class-oriented approach to politics, economics, and history. My primary concern is the too-passive, too-ignorant general American public, which has been cowed, disempowered, de-radicalized, disoriented, and de-politicized for decades.
From 2012:
The Rise of the Police State and the Absence of Mass Opposition
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=1904
See also:
Imperialism and the Politics of Torture
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=2018
The Logic behind Mass Spying: Empire and Cyber Imperialism
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=1961
The Deeper Meaning of Mass Spying in America
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=1943
The Two Faces of a Police State: Sheltering Tax Evaders, Financial Swindlers and Money Launderers while Policing the Citizens.
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=1905
The Two Faces of Class Struggle: The Motor Force for Historical Regression or Advance.
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=1934
The Great Transformation: From the Welfare State to the Imperial Police State
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=1903
Signs of a Police State Are Everywhere
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/PSeverywhere.html
While you’re merely saying ‘fuck them’ to the reactionary or otherwise establishment voices across the world that are exploiting this situation for their own benefit, the damage done to average Muslims now being put on notice to accept utterly humiliating ridicule upon the already imperialist looting of their home countries’ resources – and massacre of their military-age males (and sundry women and children) near someone who is deemed ‘suspicious’ – arbitrarily continues, apparently with your (previously unlikely) blessing.
You’ve been propagandized. Open your eyes.
Well Cindy, I somehow imagine I can (and will) continue to oppose imperialist U.S. foreign policy while also insisting that French culture be understood when assessing the Charlie Hebdo paper and cartoons. I further expect that the Western fight to make blasphemy legal — and a virtual sacrament in France — can be upheld and embraced at the same time.
But your concern is duly noted.
I posted this the night before the attack on ‘Charlie Hebdo’ on another website, but I think it acquires an additional, terrible significance and meaning after the fact: “Houellebecq is sincere when he says that Western civilization is hollow to its core and only Islam can save it, his is a truly intelligent, radical, and prescient (indeed alchemical or kabbalistic) response to that gargantuan, continent-sized malaise that, for example, (and here lies the crux of the controversy) Breivik was also responding to, but while the latter would and could only transform himself into a blood-soaked caricature (though quite actually “demon” possessed) of a Dostoevskian “underground” or “superfluous” man, Houellebecq has the capacity, which is above all a creative ability, to resort to the relative equanimity, the sangfroid, the intuition (which is a sort of purity despite all) of the genuine artist, and this makes the transformative possibilities of his impulses, the “eppur-si-muove” power of his vision, all the more actual and existent, because it has not been exhausted, aborted, or made monstrous by self-destruction or destruction of the other.”
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/houellebecq-submission/#post-comments
“I also know the caricatures of Islam…” (https://books.google.com/books?id=rjL8OQWQGpEC&lpg=PA245&ots=f1-JDhEIe0&dq=%22I%20also%20know%20the%20caricatures%20of%20Islam%22&pg=PA245#v=onepage&q=%22I%20also%20know%20the%20caricatures%20of%20Islam%22&f=false)
A “blood-soaked caricature” which is the demonic product of “power” and “transformative possibilities” perverted and “made monstrous by self-destruction or destruction of the other.” In other words, the powerful impulse or intuition that leads to transformative possibilities is instead exhausted, aborted, made monstrous by self-destruction or destruction of the other, as in the case of Dostoevsky’s “demon” possessed young men, as in the case of Breivik, as in the case of the brothers Kouachi who, in the formulaic pattern of “demonic” possession, succumbed to the destruction of themselves and the other, i.e., to quote others, “[to] the grip of a very desperation of hatred” and revenge; “[to] an almost unrelieved catalogue of moral and physical horror, of anguished desperation, of hatred, brutality and callousness…”
Bravo. Well said, and long overdue. I knew there was something that just didn’t quite balance in this situation and I knew part of it had to do with my feeling that people were purposely inciting others repeatedly, for sport. And I know, for example, that in the U.S. the fine folks at Westboro Baptist Church didn’t get a lot of editorial support for their protests praising the deaths of U.S. servicemen and the child victims of Newtown as God’s righteous work. In Germany, to this day, you still cannot walk around singing the praises of Nazis. So, there are limits, but it seemed to me were weren’t too interested in them depending on who was being targeted. You have done an excellent job of presenting the full picture.
Of course, nothing will keep governments from taking advantage of the situation to use it to craft speech more to their liking……
Exactly.
The word “technically” is doing some heavy lifting in the tweeted sentence. If the recent tragedy demonstrates anything, it is that governments are not the only threat to free speech.
I agree Gator. And, though I am not familiar with the particulars of the French laws regarding such, it also struck me as a particularly americanized (First Amendment verbiage) framing of the issue.
I agree that the Isreal/US alliance is very powerful and censorship-like, but what I don’t understand is how GG ignores the attributes of Islamic states that are so repugnant to humanist values. Islamist populations and governments hate homosexuals, oppress women and children and seem to be okay with torture in a way that the US can’t measure up to at its very worst. The self-censorship of criticism for Jews & Israel compares very weakly to the murder of satiric cartoonists of the Prophet especially when considering how GG (and I would) be treated in any one of the Islamic countries, that is, if we were allowed to live at all.
On the subject of context matters with regards to the cartoons in question: I ran across this site linked to below which helps to explain that “the cover [cartoon] is simply the combination of two news stories to make a provocative joke. This is a very common occurrence in Charlie Hebdo front pages.”
In other words, cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo that seem at first glance, as Glenn Greenwald puts it, “not just offensive but bigoted, such as the one mocking the African sex slaves of Boko Haram as welfare queens” are in fact much more nuanced and complex when placed into the cultural context in which the expressions were formed.
This information, along with other poster’s views here who have first hand knowledge of the French culture, remind us that it’s not so black-or-white when it comes to judging content coming from a frame of reference that is, literally and figuratively, quite foreign to most; especially to a majority of the quick-to-condemn, uninformed, knee-jerk American public.
https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-context-of-Charlie-Hebdos-cartoon-depicting-Boko-Haram-sex-slaves-as-welfare-queens
Thanks, Sillyputty. I’d been trying to find that after briefly running into it a few days ago. As one of the commenters says:
And another:
It looks like people may have jumped the gun on these cartoons, which is understandable since half the fun of satire is that it will inevitably bite you in the ass.
Satire is, in many ways, a Rorschach test. But the inkblots are a trick designed to set your mind running full speed down a path and then quickly introduce that stone jutting out of the ground.
Faceplant.
The direct lesson intended, once unwound, is small compared to the heightened sense of critical awareness that accompanies times of rapid deceleration.
Well said. The point of view of the margin is innately foreign to the privileged. And vice versa. Without reconciliation, the signal to noise ratio tends to suffer.
http://www.esquire.com/print-this/james-baldwin-cool-it?page=all
Thanks for that link to the Esquire article – an excellent read!
Hi BenjaminAP –
James Baldwin does seem to come up a lot around here, doesn’t he? I may look up that article…
But I have to note that that quote reminds me of an excellent book I’ve read: by Melba Patillo Beals, one of the Little Rock Nine – her second volume of reminiscences —- it’s called “White is a State of Mind.”
@Sillyputty
welcome!
Baldwin v Buckley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFeoS41xe7w
@feline16
Amazing interview, worth your time. Baldwin seems more relevant today than ever, sadly.
thanks, never read Beals before, to the queue!
@BenjaminAP – The video debate in the link must have been evidential for the recent SCOTUS conlusion that racism no longer exists in America…smh
This article is BEYOND STUPID. You condemn the islamaphobic cartoons of Charlie Hebdo; but then you publish a thousand anti-semitic ones.
You say: “To comport with this new principle for how one shows solidarity with free speech rights and a vibrant free press, we’re publishing some blasphemous and otherwise offensive cartoons about religion and their adherents:”
However, you are only offending ONE religion and you are a hypocrite in your disapproval of others’ support of Charlie Hebdo’s offending cartoons.
You are just an ANTI-SEMITE parading as a QUASI-INTELLECTUAL but hopefully most people will be able to see through your bullshit.
You are DISTASTEFUL and are INSULTING OTHERS FOR BEHAVING JUST LIKE YOU.
3
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The men who attacked the magazine were politically powerless and most likely insane (i.e. deranged), they and political provocateurs would be the only ones likely to unleash an attack on such a periodical–well balanced people, regardless of religious persuasion, who are not social or political provocateurs would of course never think to commit such acts, which begs the question: Who was Charlie thumbing its nose at by drawing exaggerated Mohammedan noses and beards in satirical contexts, sane Muslims who seek only to lead tranquil lives, or an extremely marginalized minority of unbalanced banlieue thugs? Who else would pay such a magazine that much notice apart from the aforementioned young, socially marginalized and mentally alienated male minorities and their fringe-imam manipulators? Why provoke the desperate, the powerless, the insane? Why was Charlie Hebdo not hated, but rather the protected pet of the political establishment, while, on the other hand, keeping a constant guard against elements from the most disprotected sectors of French (post-colonial) society? The only people who would wish Charlie Hebdo destroyed are intelligently psychopathic (irreligious) provocateurs and deranged and marginalized Muslim male youth whose strings the former dispassionately pull.
Thank you for this, Glenn Greenwald.
I just read (most of…*) the Chomsky article Greenwald’s twitter linked to earlier today. It occurs to me his article is in reality shaped entirely by censorship itself, that is he seems to walk right up to the very edge of what he feels is barely politically correct thus the entire article’s foundation is controlled by censorship and in the end edges out as a benefit to the west by being perfectly in line with their viciously imposed narrative, in my opinion.(using the term west simply because there’s no other word, not as the genetic thesis of broader r1 in the context that the only alternative is the east which seems specifically to fall entirely on r1a’s new cultural identity to the complete systematic exclusion of everyone else that was already there)
The seem to have basically monopolized the very feeling that is present in this entire event, that is they’ have stolen this feeling from the people that they get from marching and protesting on this issue and in general and are only allowing them to “feel” it specifically when intel wants them to. this situation occurs often.
they seem to simply steal everything they can, it’s hard to imagine all that’s been stolen from our collective consciousness in this manner.
“it’s hard to imagine all that’s been stolen from our collective consciousness in this manner”
4th of July comes to mind. when else are we allowed to “feel” that feeling? we should probably steal that one back from british 5-eyes.
To answer the author’s question of whether posting anti-Israel cartoons makes him a free speech hero: If he did this despite real threats of violence from Jewish extremist groups, if this was done after actual incidents of violence, and most importantly if it was done primarily to challenge the precedent that a religious group can limit speech (especially blasphemous speech) with violence, than he absolutely would be.
To the sensible among us, the specific religion is completely irrelevant: while there is a violent fringe dynamic of Islam currently, we know that the DNA of this religion is essentially the same as any other. Any faith system is capable of this. And Christianity has historically murdered more than any faith. But this is a model that is happening currently. I don’t think the irony is lost on anyone that Charlie Hebdos criticism of the violent insane wing of Islam is challenged with violent insanity. If CH criticized Islam disproportionately, it was likely because this is where the strongest voices to NOT criticize their faith is coming from. They were agitators and that has value.
You’ve presented those covers without context. The one showing the filming was a send-up (and critique) of that racist youtube movie — and the one of the pregnant Nigerians was a South Park-like critique of how right-wing French characterize marginalized people. Tasteless? Probably. But so unfair to those artists to present them as proof of their so-called racism.
There is a difference between requiring an outlet to publish content, and allowing someone to publish their own content, that Greenwald’s final paragraph seems to conflate. No one should be prevented from getting up on their own soapbox, That doesn’t mean we should require every soapbox to present every viewpoint, or even viewpoints different from their own.
Eventually, the aggregate of each individual’s opinion about content will determine what the market is for that opinion. People will come to their own conclusions about what they will listen to or read.
If I made fun of my (imaginary) neighbor who has a gun and a hot temper, I would be brave, I suppose. But to what end? What would I be trying to achieve? That is how I see gratuitously offensive cartoons of Mohammad the Prophet, which, by their nature, offend not only dangerous people but also harmless ones.
Shouldn’t we be distinguishing between the power of oppressive governments and the so-called power of outlaws? To stand up to the first, using free speech and with the purpose of effecting change, is courageous and admirable. Edward Snowden did this and paid a price. But I don’t think anything can be achieved against the second group by this kind of free speech. It’s just bravado and causes harm to innocents.
Muslims should not get offended by any of these. They should realize that there’s a tendency for the inner self to create inner idols, such as “Personal God”, “Personal Muhammad”, “Personal Islam”.
We worship none of these “Personal” idols.
The actual God, Prophet, Islam, are not harmed by any insults, mocking and satire, thrown at them. God is fully capable of looking after Himself/Herself/Itself and everything else.
Muslims need to realize that our striving is to groom our self so that it is completely detached from these “Personal” entities. It’s very difficult, but that’s what we are to strive for.
Whatever others do, is a reflection of THEIR inner state; not anyone else’.
Many in the West feel that freedom of speech is sacred to them.
So, we Muslims MUST respect what is sacred to them! No Ifs and Buts about it!
Interesting take. You can’t harm a deity with mere words and crude drawings, but you can harm free speech. We should focus on protecting that.
Blaspheming deities and their prophets is what the French do; they have been doing it for several hundred years. It’s a hallmark of their aggressively secular culture.
As for being brave. The Charlie Hebdo staff has been living with 24/7 security and death threats, and still would not cease occasional cartoons that blasphemed the Prophet (or the ones that blasphemed Jesus and humiliated Catholic clergy). On Wednesday death found them. That is brave.
We should. Liberals (classic or otherwise) often falsely conflate the two. Rights are based in law. Claiming a series of murders attacked their “rights” is intellectually incoherent. Murder is illegal.
So it’s a question of emotion. The intellectual understanding of “Rights” becomes a convenient euphemism for “Tribe”. Activating lower mammalian centers of the brain in the name of “Enlightenment”. Meanwhile, the political space for violence against Muslims expands in width and depth.
No, it’s not. One may sue private individuals in the U.S. for conspiring to interfere with their constitutional rights. Including by lynching. Vigilantes to circumvent constitutional protections can, indeed, be punished for the circumvention.
So you’re saying the immediate families of the deceased no longer have a “right to sue”? This is the great attack on liberty you keep referring to? They hate us for our torts? Are you kidding me?
Nope. I’m stating that when you asserted: “Claiming a series of murders attacked their “rights” is intellectually incoherent,” you were wrong.
Strong argument.
Killing someone for exercising their right to speak doesn’t deprive them of that right? The undisguised threat to murder anyone else who might speak similarly doesn’t affect the right of free expression? Are you kidding us?
Who’s us?
Look, this is a “right”.
You see the “congress shall make no law” part? That’s the freedom of speech. Rights are based in constitutional law.
Saying someone’s “right to speak” is under attack confuses a criminal pretext for murder, which is illegal, as an attack on “rights”. This is incoherent. Worse, it falsely assumes a state of war.
Not to mention we’re talking about France, not America, which makes the assertion that “freedom is under attack” all the more dangerous and absurd.
BenjaminAP in a letter he should send to the NAACP:
Benjamin must do some correcting of this wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_civil_rights_workers%27_murders
@BenjaminAP – so rights exist solely in codified law? Then what of Jefferson, that eloquent slave-raper, and the “inalienable rights” with which men were endowed by their creator? Have I no right to eat, absent a law guaranteeing same?
Shorter Mona. “Our civilization is under attack: Give us torts or give us death!”
@gator
They do in the context of a country being “under attack”. ie an act of war. Murder is a crime. Terrorism is a crime. The “interference with rights”, as Mona helpfully illustrates, is ancillary to the crime of murder. But liberals are framing this “interference” as an attack on “their homeland”. False, and completely dangerous.
The support I provided for it is, to wit: “One may sue private individuals in the U.S. for conspiring to interfere with their constitutional rights. Including by lynching. Vigilantism to circumvent constitutional protections can, indeed, be punished for the circumvention.”
Private actors can and are privately sued for interfering with rights, including free speech. Circumstances are somewhat narrow, but they exist.
Liberty!
That’s an interesting way of framing it. If I’m reading you correctly, you’re saying that Muslim lobbyists trying to change the law to include blasphemy laws would be ‘attacking rights’, in a sense, but that simply breaking the law is, well, breaking the law.
I don’t know that I agree that ‘rights’ = ‘tribe’, psychologically. Hopefully, in a secular government, rights = ‘collective knowledge of what it takes for many tribes to live side-by-side and not kill each other’. I am not necessarily gung-ho about free speech at a personal level, for example. (Been reading Thich Nhat Hanh lately, who is a proponent of the idea that ‘ingesting’ questionable material – violent film scenes, commercials promoting rampant materialism, confusing images of soy milk, etc. – affect one’s clarity of mind in the way that ingesting food affects your body, and should be voluntarily censored.) But given what we have learned over the ages about letting any one group be the be-all end-all voice on deciding what constitutes ‘healthy’ viewing materials, and how badly such percepts can be abused for control, developed countries tend to write laws saying that no one group gets to control the environment in which we live, while individuals have the right to make personal choices about how to shape their lives within that environment.
No. Lobbying is legal. Constitutional amendments are legal. ‘Attacking rights’ means attacking the state itself. Losing rights means the dissolution of the state itself (ie losing a war, foreign occupation). I’m saying we’re not at war. Admittedly, a minority view.
Haven’t I told you, these things always end up being discussions of Hobbesian anarchy in one form or another. ;)
I know right! It’s so annoying. Especially when you consider all the worry about anarchy leading to a “monopoly of violence”. In other words, a state.
“time is a flat circle”
I never said anything about a monopoly of violence. I picture it more as a wild rave scene of violence, except everyone is dressed in weird clothes that are somewhere between Viking and bad vampire movie, because my historical knowledge of fashion has many gaps so that’s my generic visualization of anarchic people in ‘the olden days’.
No it’s quite clean and orderly actually. See, entrepreneurs build cages to put the dirty people in. It’s not as bad as you think.
Now you’re just redefining words to fit your ‘cooler than thou’ attitude. Allow me to give you a back pat and a “Wow dude. You just get it, y’know? Cause The Man. And Stuff”. Is there a lava lamp somewhere in this picture?
I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself. I think a lot of the time people think I’m being phony or a poser with my lovey-dovey “We are all one” Buddhism stuff, and I think they’re shitheads for not understanding that to me, those sentiments are genuine. So if you really believe what you’re saying, apologies for scribbling over that picture with my own projections. C’mere. Group hug.
But kids program in Arabs TV contains lots of hate i do not even imagine http://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=PT7kArq4-S8
Comparing anti-islamic speech to anti-black speech is like comparing apples and oranges. It’s literally comparing a religious viewpoint that can be adopted by anyone of any color at any time to the systematic oppression of an entire group of people based on skin color. Comparing anti-islamic speech to anti-semitism is only slightly less ignorant, as Jews have historically been persecuted for racial reasons, not for their religious beliefs. Holding a particular, unproven OPINION about life after death, and especially one that promotes violence and sexism (this applies to both the quran and the bible) does NOT qualify the holder of this belief to cry racism if this viewpoint is (rightly) questioned or even insulted. Furthermore, although christians in the west are likely to be both unreasonable and unpleasant to be around, the only power they have is to bore you to death over Thanksgiving dinner once a year. Islam’s blasphemy laws are the last, dying relics of the superstitious centuries of our recent past, and comparing anti-muslim speech to racism allows these unreasonable ideas to cling to life while killing those who dare to disagree. That the majority of muslims or christians may be peaceful does not change the ideology of their beliefs, explained very clearly in their holy books with violence, misogyny, and racism all condoned in various situations.
A couple of points need to be made about the terrorist attack in Paris. First, Jews were targeted and victimized. The Kosher market attack was not simply by chance. Indeed, the owners may not even have been Zionist Jews and it’s irrelevant anyway. The perpetrators likely didn’t take a poll before the attack. They are Jews and that is enough to “justify” murder. The Haaretz writes:
“……Like previous attacks in Toulouse and Brussels, a “Jewish” target was picked on Friday for the attack. This follows a series of reported harassments of French Jews in recent months. …..”
Second, only the extreme left could possibly use a terrorist attack by Islamic extremist which targeted innocent Jews to press a political point about Muslim victimization – and then show a series of political pictures depicting Jewish power and brutality. Of course, one could say this was a simple political point and Jews were collateral damage, but anyone who understands the obsession with Israel by the fringe left understands the intent of this article – and the timing of the content in the response.
At the very least the article is insensitive to the Jews targeted in the Paris terrorist attack, and at worst, the article is justifying the murder of Jews. It’s clear that the Intercept is incredibly desensitized to Jewish death, but by politicizing Jewish victims in Paris, this article takes that “insensitivity” to a new level.
Justifying the murder of Jews? How so? I’m proud to be part of the “extreme left” as defined by you, but I would definitely draw a line at justifying the murder of Jews. Please elaborate.
Your comment is uncalled for. GG is putting his life on the line by printing anti-Jewish cartoons.
You’ve got to be kidding.
Bullshit. No death threats will come because of posting anti-Jewish cartoons. It’s Islam that’s the religion of jihad, in case you hadn’t noticed.
Oh really? I bet it made an enjoyable change from the normal Israel bashing while pretending its free from anti-semitism, to publishing the real thing. These cartoons are ubiquitous in the Middle East, Jews know them, their history and what’s behind them. But well done, now you have exercised your right to publish them. And unless you are soon gunned down with an AK-47 (or even a tiny little Molotov cocktail) as I am sure many on this board secretly wish, you just made the very point for those targeted. This is called an own goal.
Yes Gator90. I’m having a hard time understanding Craig’s reasoning. At first I thought he might be being ironic. But now I don’t think so. I think I would have to twist my brain into a pretzel to see things Craig’s way.
Could be, and if so, it’s great that didn’t happen here. Glenn posted about an attack on Charlie Hebdo, which AQAP has stressed was carried out due to Charlie Hebdo’s repeated instances of “blasphemy” against the Prophet.
Indeed, I believe Glenn’s post went up before (or perhaps at the same time) the attack at the kosher store was reported.
“…….Indeed, I believe Glenn’s post went up before (or perhaps at the same time) the attack at the kosher store was reported…..”
I checked that out and you are correct. At the time of the publication of this article, the attack on the Kosher Market had not taken place ( I think). My apologies to Mr. Greenwald and the Intercept.
Actually, despite being wrong and apologizing for the false accusations in this comment based on the timing of events and publication, the comment is also wrong for another reason.
While he may not want to admit it, it is not just the “extreme left” or “fringe left” who are “obsessed” with unjust and immoral Israeli policy.
Far from it.
Just looking at the last vote in the UNSC, it’s the majority.
Pretty much every way you can measure it, the result is the same.
The tactic of trying to make critics feel isolated and alone is understandable, and maybe even still works with some people, but it’s just not true.
We are the many, and only a few of the many qualify as extreme leftists.
In the rush to condemn anything as racist and anti-Muslim you don’t even take the time to think about what you’re criticizing. Consider the cartoon “mocking the African sex slaves of Boko Haram as welfare queens” and think about that for two seconds. Can kidnapped sex slaves in Nigeria get welfare? Is it even remotely thinkable that kidnapped sex slaves in Nigeria can get welfare? Are kidnapped sex slaves not living a horrendous existence of suffering completely outside of a system that could even provide welfare? How is it possible to mock something that everyone who puts a moment of honest thought into knows doesn’t come close to existing in reality? If you did two minutes of research and tried to understand the cartoon instead of just being a reactionary trying to score points for your team’s side you would know that Charlie Hebdo has a history of mixing news stories in their cartoons, which is what is happening in that one. The two stories in the news at the time were the girls who were taken as slaves by Boko Haram and, back in French domestic politics, conservatives criticizing the welfare system and people receiving welfare while trying to rescind welfare benefits, as conservatives are wont to do. So Hedbo took the two stories and made a hyperbolic example of the conservatives viewpoint. Conservatives criticize poor, desperate people on the fringes of the system for receiving welfare, so Hedbo mocked that opinion by showing what conservatives would do to the poorest of the poor in the most desperate circumstances who need help more than anyone. But it was obviously not mocking the sex slaves because, duh, sex slaves can’t get welfare. The cartoon was mocking the conservative viewpoint of welfare and the people who receive it. Hedbo has a mostly left-leaning bent, if irreverent and anarchistic. Only an intellectually dishonest and lazy person would use that cartoon to say Hedbo was being racist or bigoted. It was just the opposite.
When NATO killed 16 people in the Serbian TV station
it was celebrated…
http://inserbia.info/today/2014/04/anniversary-of-nato-bombing-of-the-radio-television-of-serbia/
At HuffPo Middle East studies prof explains Charlie Hebdo in terms of French culture:
For the French, their national identity is bound up in secularism and rejection of what they see as the fragmenting potential of religious particularity; they want religion to be a private matter in the home and church/synagogue/mosque, but keeping quiet and unseen in public. Agree or disagree, that’s their culture and attitude toward all religion.
Exactly. But, of course, Glenn Greenwald is a well-known expert on French culture. Not.
@DanielWickham is breaking down the leadership attendance at the rally in Paris today (links included in twitter line left off to ensure comment posts):
That’s a pretty astonishing list of rally attendees, but it certainly isn’t freedom of the press that is being supported if you examine the links associated with each tweet. Supporting links can be found starting here:
https://twitter.com/DanielWickham93/status/554235910095925248
So what is it then that is being supported by this rally? According to @HeerJeet they are there in support of a state monopoly on violence.
https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/554286001472798720
(All of the above found via the twitter accounts of Jeremy Scahill and TallyHoGazehound.
This list only proves that the governments are being administered by normal people. Only fools would punish their supporters and reward their opponents. It is our mistaken fancy to attach imaginary ethical qualities in people who by the force of their occupation have neither ethics nor morality.
In the list above, I would think that #10 is very much in order. In fact, it would please me immensely if all the Washington clarions are compulsorily provided with the same kind of reorientation that our solitary worthy was privileged to have enjoyed.
Good work creating this list. As a point of minor detail it should be ok for Cerar to be there since he was not yet PM at that time – not even in politics in fact.
I don’t think Holder made it to the rally actually, he had other things to attend to. I think its more nimbyism and a good photo op for them. They can make it look like they care about free speech while rallying against violence that is occurring in another country. They are more against the violence than for the right of free speech.
1. Carrying a loaded assault rifle into a restaurant (onto an airplane) is a political act and should be protected.
2. Carrying a loaded assault rifle into a restaurant (onto an airplane) is a criminal act and should be prosecuted.
Same “speech”, different interpretations.
Intent matters.
A KKK march through a Jewish neighborhood intends to provoke — to move from speech to action. How is this provocation substantially different from shouting “fire” in a crowded theater?
If a cartoon provokes a (violent) response and if the cartoonist intended that (violent) response, how does than differ from incitement? Would it be allowable for a large, muscular person to say to someone in an otherwise deserted alley, “give me your money pal”?
How can speech be separated from it’s content and context? The speaker has a point to make; the more effective the speech, the more effective the speech. Indeed it seems like the less effective the speech the fewer State regulations.
“Jose says he ‘likes cinnamon toast'” is entirely different from “Jose says he plans ‘to explode a dirty bomb.'”. In the one, who cares? In other, it’s straight to the torturer for poor Mr. Padilla.
The State properly regulates speech just as it regulates behavior. The less regulation the better .. until lack of regulation harms the commonweal.
Should the State prohibit Exxon-Mobile from erecting fracking wells in the National Mall? In rural Texas? On Rex Tillerson’s property? (In my opinion all harm the common good.) Should the entity Exxon-Mobile be allowed to buy up ad space (free speech) to advocate for harm while preventing the dissemination of anti-fracking speech?
Free speech is a political designation rather than a legal (or empirical) subject. When the USSC allows free speech (free spending) in Citizens United so only the wealthy can be heard, is this a harm to the general welfare? I think so. And I think it should be regulated.
By making speech different from behavior — by unnaturally isolating speech from context, intent, and observable (or reasonably predictable) harm — the State allows identical contexts and intents (say slandering religions) to be treated differently. Would Iran allow Charlie Hebdo to publish in Teheran? Would Israel allow a neo-nazi parade in Tel Aviv? Should these States allow inherently provocative (harmful) speech?
Should any State?
As a Jew, I would certainly be offended, even provoked, by a KKK or neo-Nazi march in my neighborhood. But the right to free expression is more important than my sensibilities, and I believe State policies should reflect this.
Thank you for giving me a chance to clarify.
I don’t advocate the prohibition of free speech.
I think the State has an interest in regulating speech. But there’s the catch. When the State regulates, it necessarily limits.
It seems to me an absolutist “no limits” policy is short-sighted, counterproductive, and an illusion.
Parade permits are a good example of proper regulation.
“Free speech zones” are a good example of improper regulation.
Many hide behind free speech while they openly advocate — repress — the free speech rights of others.
See the strategic attack on A.C.O.R.N. for example.
It’s fine for candidate Romney to call media conglomerates “persons”; it’s quite disturbing when wealthy interest groups (hidden and unaccountable) to poison the public discourse by misinforming, manipulating, slandering and obstructing political speech.
It seems to me the State has an interest in preventing fraud disguised as free speech.
It seems to me the State has an interest in preventing cartels from subverting political discourse in the name of free speech.
It seems to me the State should encourage and support diversity of opinion to counterbalance the increasing uniformity of opinion imposed by media cartels.
But as always we see the media exploiting the criminal behavior of Muslims acting against hate-speech of provocateurs (suppose Charlie Hebdo was financed by the Carlyle Group, etc.) as a “free speech” issue.
I’m with you. I believe in free speech as long as it’s something I agree with!
Thanks Henry. Your approval is as welcome as your insight.
A KKK march through a Jewish neighborhood intends to provoke — to move from speech to action.
My personal favorite-of-all-time action against the First Amendment free speech rights of the KKK happened in Knoxville, TN when the clowns held a counter-protest:
http://www.neatorama.com/2007/09/03/clowns-kicked-kkk-asses/
How is this provocation substantially different from shouting “fire” in a crowded theater?
Trevor Timm wrote a good piece on that in the Atlantic, reminding people about the actual case(s) involved:
**http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/
I am in agreement with you, Milton, on the Citizens United decision, and am extremely uncomfortable with much of the speech that I still think should be protected. Yet still I fall on the side of protecting it. Why? Because of rallies like the one that took place in Paris today whereby a large number of high level representatives of governments attended despite their own governments’ demonstrable actions against free speech. So, why did they attend? Because they want to maintain their monopoly on what kind of speech should actually be free, or even exist. The First Amendment, like all such protections, are being eroded by these people on a daily basis. It is one of the few bullwarks we still have against the monopoly they promote. I would prefer that it still stand, warts and all, until we as a republic decide it is time for its repeal.
This the reddest herring ever. How many anti-semitic cartoonists were murdered last week?
Very intersting comments from Salman Rushdie on HBO Real Time w/ Bill Maher on Friday.
The short version: Some muslim countries are plowing serious money into installing extremist clerics to teach extremist islam (oppressive to women, and other stupid sh1+, etc). And now they are trying to export that to seqular european countries. The goal is to revert society back to the 7th century.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvgdPAEu8vA
Rushdie certainly has the moral authority to opine on these issues. I did agree with him that I cringe at the people addressing the Charlie Hebdo massacre with statements such as: “We should have free speech, BUT….”
Entirely missing from that discussion, however, is the pervasive Western attacks on, occupations of, and oppression of Muslim countries. The attack on Rushdie, and on Charlie Hebdo, were committed by retrograde religious nuts who oppose “blasphemy.” That’s one thing, and these violent extremists get no sympathy from me: blasphemy is tolerated by enlightened peoples.
But other Islamic violence is political, entirely driven by U.S. policy toward Muslim nations and Israel. The rage about those issues is rational and can’t be dismissed with a Bill Maher panel decrying savages wanting to bring back the 7th century. For that violence, we, the West, need to look in a mirror.
I agree 100% that West’s occupation of the ME, Drone Murder Program, Torture etc. are just a psychopathic as what Islamic Psychopaths are doing. Best recruiting tools ever for AQAP, ISIS et al.
And I think Rushdie agree would too.
How do you compartmentalize the “violence against blasphemy” from political reality? The political reality just takes a vacation? Blasphemy is inherently apolitical? Ridiculous.
They don’t primarily hate us for our freedoms. Notwithstanding what a lot of wingnuts would have you believe. But they do have a small cohort of religious nuts who think blasphemers merit death, and for these I have no patience.
The same “small cohort of religious nuts who think blasphemers merit death, ” are the same ones that are wreaking havoc on the planet with their evil acts and have all kinds of political and religious objectives.
I do not believe even for a moment that they love the Prophet (S) and that their motive for their recent evil acts in France was entirely against blasphemy.
No, I see them having a bigger agenda.
The ideology that produced these killers in France is the same that caused the killing of over a hundred students in Peshawar, Pakistan recently.
Many of us consider them the Kharijites that have existed within Islam for 1400+ years, and against whom the Prophet (S) not only warned us, he (S) also gave us their distinguishing characteristics.
Muslim leaders have failed to contain them, and we know the reasons very well; one of the primary reasons is that some of them are guilty of producing and sustaining them.
Good point. It isn’t as tho these fanatical extremists are a problem only for the West.
So you don’t have patience for religiously motivated murder, which you assert is apolitical. Does that mean you have patience for politically motivated murder?
Death. I said I have no patience for religious nuts who think blasphemy merits death. Not whether done in violation of the law, or when imposed legally as a sanction for a criminal law banning blasphemy.
Hi Glenn,
and how many people were revenge-killed over the other cartoons you posted?
Maybe you are just missing the point with your post! Completely!
Mr Greenwald, you should know this is a war. There are sides that people take when there is a war. One side that is always right is called “We”. The other side that is always wrong is called “They”. This concept is mirrored by both teams fighting the war. Each team has Laws and Procedures for their own protection, not for the benefit of the other team.
Once you get this concept right you will be more considerate towards the behavioral anomalies that you notice.
The emerging challenge to Judaism and Christianity is Buddhism. See, I got it wrong! Religions don’t challenge each other. Dammit, I’ll re-word it. The emerging challenge to the economy of the USA and Israel is the economy of China. Ahh … this is the real reason for conflict. The dilemma here is that Buddhists do not use religion as a motivating force, and don’t really bother about the chastity of the Buddha, so I am wondering what strategy we will adopt with the oblique visionaries.
Obviously you have no idea about what’s going on in places like Myanmar and Sri Lanka; Buddhist countries with groups of militant monks hounding Muslim people!
Brilliant article. I am spreading this to friends. Glen Greenwald’s analysis is so insightful. There was something that didn’t feel right about the overdone big demo in Paris. Overdoing it would seem to feed the “clash of civilizations” paradigm which is so false and so dangerous. I hope I am wrong. The cartoons were horrible and racist. I felt offended for my Muslim friends and I think it is wrong to incite racism and to feed hate.. It is wrong to divide and kill.
Glenn thank you for posting this.Every word you wrote is something the world needs to accept and think about.
No one…no one apart from Israel has benefited from this incident especially as you may know this already pro-Palestinian demos are banned in France now.Isn’t it rather suspicious that for 7 months since publication of those pics there was no reaction and days after French ParliameNt passes vote recognizing Palestine as state and Nethanyahu’s threat “You will regret this decision” the Charlie Hebdo is attacked???
And ofc Media didn’t mention Ahmed who died protecting the magazine.There is too much thoughtlessness and hypocrisy in the world.Where was the Freedom Of Speech when so many Journalists were killed in Gaza in 2014?
Thank you…Great article…
A breath of fresh air in a claustrophobic room of parochial thinkers like Maher and Harris. Nationalism is nothing more than religion in the disguise of State, and it’s warped thinking when a person suggest that we are not terrorist because we bomb innocent people out of national interest, but “they” are it’s religious fanatics when we are attacked by the people we bomb. It appears that most wars are conducted by people who think God is on their side.
Superb article. Never ceases to amaze me though how many people fail to understand the obvious argument contained within and thus completely prove the point the writer is making.
Sharp,inspiring and up to the point-as usual.Thanks Glenn
FWIW you might want to know that out of 36 covers of CHARLIE-HEBDO deemed a representative sample by GQ : 24 lampooned French politics, 6 lampooned Christianity, 5 lampooned Islam and 1 Israel.
Can you not see the difference between Jews or Blacks or Hispanics or gays who protest anti-semitic, racist, or homophobic cartoons with letter-writing campaigns, and Islamic fundamentalists who “protest” cartoons about Mohammed with fatwas, death threats, and outright massacres? The examples you cite of Larry Flynn’s attack or a random bomb threat by Christians years ago are the exceptions which prove the general rule: Has Carlos Latuff seen his office firebombed by Jewish fanatics for his anti-Israel cartoons? Does he live in real fear that a Jewish fundamentalist might at any moment enter his office and shoot him in the head? Has he been forced into hiding or 24/7 armed protection to safeguard his life (like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Salman Rushdie) from assaults by settlers?
Can you point to any example where a caricaturist has been killed for “blaspheming” Jews or Blacks or Hispanics or gays? If not, can you instead explain your false equivalence between any of those groups expressing their discontent with Holocaust or “wetback” or “watermelon” stereotypes, for instance, and Islamists who set fire to embassies, throw bombs through windows, and murder in cold blood?
I, and other liberals like me (I am gay, agnostic, and a socialist), are rightfully sympathetic to those minorities who are peacefully offended or even outraged by racist, homophobic, or anti-semitic depictions, even if we would not legally insulate them from the insult. In those cases, perhaps we would follow your logic, and protect the demeaning free speech even as we don’t indulge it with reproduction. But we do not equate these reactions to the violence routinely perpetrated by Muslims when it is their ideology insulted. Real bravery is not what you’ve done, perpetuating a series of anti-Israel cartoons which freely proliferate across the world outside the United States. Nobody seriously thinks Netanyahu–who, whatever his faults, permits gay pride parades and is himself non-religious–is going to send the Mossad to avenge his reputation. True courage consists of supplementing free speech critical of Muslims, whose fanatics have a track record of actual savagery. That’s not gratuitous, that’s proving a crucial point. There is also the important distinction that, unlike being Semitic, homosexual, Latino, Black, Asian, or female, there is nothing intrinsic about being a “Muslim.” Islam is an ideological elective, and should be subject to scrutiny based on the promotion of its ideas, not the immanent biological characteristics of its adherents (who have a wide variation of races and ethnicities–the Boston Marathon bombers were, quite literally, Caucasians).
What sort of psychological complex compels you to feel the need to defend Islam, the world’s largest religion, and probably the most virulent right-wing philosophy extant on our planet, while directing your full opprobrium at a tiny religious sect, like Judaism, which seeks neither conversion of anyone (most especially by the ultra-Orthodox, who wholeheartedly reject proselytizing) nor any interest in territory outside the relatively small area they deem to be “Greater Israel”?
Thanks Glenn. Spot on.
This whole discussion was a big red herring out of the Soviet propaganda handbook.
Pay no attention to the Islamization of Europe and the accompanying violence, rapes, and honor killing. Pay no attention to the no-go zones in France or the Shariah police in Germany. Make everything about Israel and Palestinians. This strategy worked for Arab dictators for a while to distract people from domestic problems, but it’s started to fail for them, and it will fail in Europe.
First, they came for the Jews. Then, they came for the cartoonists. Then, they’ll come for the gays, the atheists and polytheists, the women who don’t cover up, the schoolgirls.
Uh-oh. Someone is badly stuck in the 1950s.
The propaganda tactics don’t change much. Islamists, Communists, and Fascists still use Israel as a scapegoat.
In 1956, the Soviet Union called Hungarian freedom fighters “fascists financed by Western imperialists,” and now Russia describes Ukrainians the same way.
None of which is relevant to Greenwald’s article. Moreover, Islamists don’t use Israel as a scapegoat; scapegoats are not actually guilty. Israel is.
Sure, Israel is guilty of Muslims having no rights in Muslim countries, of high food prices in Egypt, of the Sunni-Shia bloodbath, of causing deadly earthquakes in Iran, of the Muslim world lagging in science and technology. During the “Arab Spring” in Syria and in Egypt, the regime and the rebels accused each other of being Israeli stooges.
Of ethnic cleansing, land theft, and maintaining millions of Palestinians in open air prisons. Israel is guilty of what Moshe Dayan already admitted back in 1956 when a Gazan killed a soldier:
This past summer, the ethno-religious supremacist State of Israel bombed out Gaza with thousands of deaths, including 500 Gazan children — their mutilated baby corpses seen all over Twitter when physicians and nurses took pictures.
What Israel does to its victims, to the people it oppresses, is unconscionable. The whole world sees it, and Israel is now a leper nation.
Yes, Israel is obviously responsible for all the ills of the world. So says the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Greenwald’s (and your) real handbook. Please come out as the Jew hater you really are, it’ll be cathartic for you…
Except the Ukrainian fiasco was financed by USA NGO’s and the NGO’s are financed by the USA government. There is a taped recording of Victoria Nuland bragging about her deciding who runs the Ukraine, there’s also one about the USA spending 5 or 6 billion dollars to overthrow a democratically elected president of the Ukraine. Google it.
Umm…referring to some of the Ukranians involved in the coup d’etat as “fascists financed by Western imperialists” isn’t all that far off base.
Unfortunately for your thesis, it is widely believed that the Hungarian freedom fighters really were fascists – by Hungarians who used the Revolution to escape both them and the Soviet control over the society. I wonder how many Holocaust survivors were among the rebels in Hungary. Those I know about had two choices: adhere to the communists or leave. Those who left neither rallied around Cardinal Mindszenty nor the peoples’ republic that emerged. So if you imagine all the anti-Soviet forces standing up in revolt, think again. Sometimes there are bad choices and worse choices, and sometimes no choices at all.
@Death to Traitors
I humbly suggest that you read some of the online Sufi literature, and proudly change your name to Death to Ego. Believe me, your experience will be most enlightening, and people like Mr Sufi, Ms Mona and yours truly will take pride in calling you a valued friend, which unfortunately is not happening right now. The rest of the squatters here will also benefit from a pleasant change in your perspectives, which at present, I daresay, is a slight wee bit nauseating.
For whatever reason as I scroll along, I keep reading it as “Death To Taters” – which ires me, as I like taters a lot. But then I realize my mistake and scroll along…
The apologists claim that religion had nothing to do with it. It is about Western oppression in the Middle East. That the blowback is a natural reaction.
So I have to ask. Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers?
“Very few know of Voltaire’s repulsive comments, and many (in my opinion) would disavow associating with him if they did.” – Cindy
It’s both ironic and hypocritical that in the comments section of one of the most vigorous expositions of free speech, free press, and the process of reconciliation for the killing of many for espousing the same, we bizarrely find some who propose that even more messengers (such as Voltaire, Hitchen’s, et al.) need to be killed in their entirety simply because some of their message does not fit neatly within their own worldview.
If everyone took this advice, to trash-can whatever person’s entire litany of thoughts and ideas using this grand theory of asinine censorship, we’d all be left with nothing to argue about – or to praise.
“Censorship exercises tutelage over the highest interest of the citizens, their minds… You marvel at the delightful diversity, the inexhaustible riches of nature. You do not ask the rose to smell like a violet; but the richest of all, the mind, is supposed to exist in only a single manner?” – Karl Marx
The link to the other example above of this grand theory being applied: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/07/intercept-liveblog-charlie-hebdo-offices-attack/#comment-101943
Note: This post initially showed up below, but was intended to be independent of a particular thread. I’ll conveniently assign blame to the commenting software here – although it may have just been me.
If everyone took this advice, to trash-can whatever person’s entire litany of thoughts and ideas using this grand theory of asinine censorship, we’d all be left with nothing to argue about – or to praise.
This is one of the most pernicious and successful strategies employed in maintaining the status quo of the criminal US political class. One would hope that people would eventually recognize it for what it is, a strategy designed to keep you from considering ideas based solely on their merit, as opposed to the lips and/or fingers they emerge from.
It derives its perniciousness from the fact that it abuses a wholly human trait – to divide by tribal affiliations – and, in its encouragement of just such base impulses, suppresses our ability to think critically much to our detriment.
I was pointing out that in the context of perhaps unnecessarily inflammatory satire/criticism it is inappropriate to praise a racist (Voltaire) whose work in precisely that area is polluted and vile. I was not saying that selective editing of people’s works is always wrong.
No liberal would sensibly praise Hitchens’ vile attitude toward politics, for example, in a discussion about the problem of neoconservatism.
Selective editing is obviously workable in some situations. I’m saying it isn’t in this regard because the subject matter is the very one Voltaire failed at.
A more thorough response is below, where you also left your comment.
Hi Cindy. Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. My concern rests more largely on the premise, as has been suggested here on many occasions and by many posters, that once someone’s ideas (not acts) are found to be less than desirable, the knee-jerk reaction is to unilaterally erase all of their works, future and past, from the historical and future record as being unfit for human consumption.
I reject that idea. Humans are complex, and they often think about, write about, and discuss conflicting and what often appear to be mutually exclusive ideas. That’s just reality.
In other words, just because Voltaire uttered what some would consider to be undesirable things, should all of his works be ostracized because of this? The same for Hitchen’s? For Greenwald? I don’t think so.
I completely agree with Pedinska’s remarks on this, where she notes, “One would hope that people would eventually recognize it for what it is, a strategy designed to keep you from considering ideas based solely on their merit, as opposed to the lips and/or fingers they emerge from.”
One has to develop the the ability to not kill the messenger either rhetorically or in real life, simply because they do not like their message. It’s that simple.
Marx also put this idea of selective censorship quite eloquently, where he notes that,“You do not ask the rose to smell like a violet; but the richest of all, the mind, is supposed to exist in only a single manner?”
Apologies for the excess in bold – it was supposed to begin and end at “not kill the messenger.” Sigh.
“… just because Voltaire uttered what some would consider to be undesirable things, should all of his works be ostracized because of this?”
If you read my comment downthread (where I respond more comprehensively), perhaps you’ll see more what I’m arguing.
For now, no, I’m not in favor of ostracizing all of his works, I’m saying he should not be praised in the context of possibly inflammatory satire and the context of supposedly impartial criticism. In that context, he should be seen as an opinionated racist whose work in this area is suspect.
“For now, no, I’m not in favor of ostracizing all of his works…” – Cindy
For now, I won’t ask you exactly “when” you would decide to ostracize Voltaire, or anyone else.
“That is a real taboo – a repressed idea.” – Glenn Greenwald
“For now,” as in in lieu of you reading the longer comment.
Again, and read this carefully, “I’m saying he (Voltaire) should not be praised in the context of possibly inflammatory satire and the context of supposedly impartial criticism (and these are the primary subjects under discussion in this very article). In that context, he should be seen as an opinionated racist whose work in this area is suspect.”
Mona –
Perhaps you could make a pie chart, show everybody where you think Voltaire’s different works should go.
Your admitting that the satirists are arbitrary (and thus potentially unprincipled or misdirected) about their targets is certainly a responsible thing to do (and there is certainly nothing wrong with it per se), and if you wish to present them as partial and prejudiced against certain groups, that’s fine as far as it goes, but perhaps you could observe that corrupt politics has infused itself in this situation far beyond it being a proverbial defense of offensiveness.
And, as I’ve tried to explain to you, it is precisely the coercion that is involved in the DEMAND (your demand) that (partial and prejudiced) offensiveness be published that is being resisted by some.
Also, it is precisely the blur between acceptable satire and unacceptable bigotry that is problematic here, in real terms, and what seems to me to be your technical insistence that ‘all bigotry is acceptable in principle’ is where I think you are being inadvisably stubborn.
““For now,” as in in lieu of you reading the longer comment.” – Cindy
Not at all. I read (carefully) the longer comment before I posted the one previous to that post – I just responded to both here.
I actually compiled a longer reply which didn’t seem warranted, as I thought I’d explained clearly already that shit-canning others ideas, praiseworthy or not, is censorship. Plain and simple. You seem essentially, and for now, to agree with this idea:
“I’m not in favor of ostracizing all of his works…”
I do understand also that you do feel that the context of an idea should be considered when appraising whether that idea is best used in a particular conversation. That sounds reasonable. That being said, I still do not agree with your assessment that Voltaire’s ideas on satire in their entirety are suspect, any more than I consider that all of your thoughts on any idea are suspect.
Why not? Because I’ve not yet read all of Voltaire’s or your ideas, so that would be prejudicial.
That said, it doesn’t mean that you or I wouldn’t place this or that idea into whatever place we deem fit in the future, even if it means to choose not to read it – it just means, at least for me, that I wouldn’t get rid of it or not allow its use altogether.
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” – Evelyn Beatrice Hall, The Friends of Voltaire
https://archive.org/details/friendsofvoltair00tall
Two charts: fiction, polemical essays
No, it’s not. The issue is satirical blasphemy; Voltaire didn’t satirize Judaism. He held some personal political animus toward Jews, said by biographers to be driven by his difficulties repaying loans taken out from Jewish lenders.
Anyway, Voltaire’s satirical bete noir was the Roman Catholic Church. Not Judaism.
Ah. Mona the squirmy weasel strikes again!
The issue broadly is agenda-based criticism and its inflammatory dangers, and anyway you are quite an obviously unreliable arbiter of when he was blaspheming, or being satirical or not.
“The issue broadly is agenda-based criticism and its inflammatory dangers, and anyway you are quite an obviously unreliable arbiter of when he was blaspheming, or being satirical or not” – Cindy
I would argue that, in the context of our own personal experiences and knowledge, we are all as equally reliable (or unreliable) arbiters of when someone is blaspheming or being satirical – thus rendering that argument dead in the water as an initial premise.
I also reject this authoritarian notion that anyone should decide for me whether I should praise Voltaire or any other persons ideas, or become subject to their classification systems or pie-charts as to where those thoughts should fit in with how I think about anything.
I go even further and reject the idea that you, and you alone, can deem for me or anyone else that Voltaire is “an opinionated racist whose work in this area is suspect.” I’ll allow you to do that for yourself – but not for me.
I may be overstating things, but in the end this seems nothing more than an attempt to pigeonhole others ideas to make them accord with your own thoughts – which is where Voltaire comes in and what this conversation started by this article seems all about:
“One can defend free speech without having to publish, let alone embrace, the offensive ideas being targeted. – Glenn Greenwald
Sillyputty, I think you misunderstand my intentions in self-expression.
My feeling is that your views can co-exist with mine, and so can Mona’s, just as they do right here on the page of comments, and the world doesn’t end. You don’t need to try to assess my viewpoint at all, let alone agree with it. For someone supposedly keen on allowing all opinions, you sometimes seem determined to speculate unnecessarily.
You state your case. I state mine. We don’t agree. Horrors!
In point of fact I don’t want other’s thoughts to conform to mine unless they and I actually honestly agree, as even when my temper’s bad I don’t care for browbeating victories, and I defend your right to disagree entirely, for what it’s worth.
My persistence in this thread is due to being evidently misunderstood in what I was saying, and as I’m unsure how much of that was willful misapprehension and how much was my own poor communication, I kept clarifying and defending what I meant – which was important to me to express clearly. It never occurred to me to insist that what is important to me should dominate others in the slightest, I just wanted it said – for if it was being misconstrued by you and Mona, chances are it was being lost on anyone unfortunate enough to witness the aggressive back-and-forth.
I don’t consider this to be about winning, having one view knock out the other, especially when the point is as nebulous (and ultimately far-reaching) as this, but of course I’ll defend and clarify my position stridently if I feel that’s necessary.
So feel free to praise Voltaire however and whenever you like, without having to guess at all whether I need you to see things my way. (If that sounds sarcastic, I don’t mean it in that manner.)
Meanwhile, my view is as plainly stated as I can make it (God, I hope so), and even if you’ve not changed my mind and I’ve not changed yours, and even if we don’t agree, it’s okay.
“I don’t consider this to be about winning, having one view knock out the other, especially when the point is as nebulous (and ultimately far-reaching) as this, but of course I’ll defend and clarify my position stridently if I feel that’s necessary.” – Cindy
Well stated Cindy, and I agree – it’s good to have others to knock ideas around with, and I’ll not belabor the point any longer.
That said, I really was hoping to see “Ninny’s Pie Chart-Of-Satire™” – but the comments section here simply doesn’t support that kind of wiz-bangery as yet.
“You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You’re on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the one who’ll decide where to go.” – Dr. Seuss
Your points are fair but fail to explain why drawing a cartoon warrants being shot in the face and chest. Satire is not a crime. Do not forget you are defending this position. The habitual beating and rape of women and children however is in most circumstances. I find it hard to reconcile your arguments with a reasonable approach as you basically are saying don’t ever say anything or you will be murdered and that’s ok because being controversial is naughty
Forgive me if this is a stupid question but I am genuinely curious: how does a website like this generate revenue? The content is free and I have yet to see a single ad anywhere on the site.
Love ya Glenn. Keep it coming.
To my non-French friends, to Glenn Greenwald, hereafter 2 important things to know about France:
1) France is a secular country; all religions are allowed and respected BUT as a private matter.
In France, religious practices are OUTLAWED in public places, and French people are happy with this.
To be clear, showing too brightly your religious faith and/or practices in a public place would be really considered as rude by French people.
2) Freedom of Speech is in the French Constitution since it was written (1789), BUT freedom of speech is nonetheless limited : it is OUTLAWED to incite to all forms of racism, antisemitism, and incitement to hatred.
This is why Charlie Hebdo is allowed in France, and why others people have been condemned by French justice.
Mohammad, Christ, Moses and Charlie walk into bar, and I still wouldn’t print some of Charlie’s silly-ass cartoons, Glenn. Not that there’s anything wrong with that … just not my style./
[Which reminds me, wtf was AQAP/Y/I/etc.* monitoring and planning(?) the destruction of an obscure French political mag. for, anyway? (*note. I thought Scahill/The//Intercept granted ‘anonymity’ to an AQAP ‘source’ … redundant.)]
Anywho, so I buy Charlie a beer and we’re standing together talking about the 37 souls who were blown-up in Yemen on the very day Charlie&co. jumped the great boa and wandered off this mortal coil. You may, or may not, have heard about it… dirty, low-down crying shame.
ps… another round for all my friends ‘~
What a remarkable analysis: to mix up and compare racism, holocaust denial and blasphemy, and throw for good measure bunch of anti-Semite caricatures in defense of free speech, in the very day of Paris kosher market massacre. I must say, Mr. Greenwald, that your article is nauseous and delusional.
Only 2 problems with Glenn’s comments.
A/ Jews aren’t running stunt the world killing muslims.
B/ too bad greenwald wasn’t killed
That’s right glenn, fuck your jihad jizz licking ass, you should have been beheaded by the muslims whose ass you lick..
Anti-Israel Propaganda!
Is Islam religion or a psychological addiction to violence?
excellent presentation!
Thank you, Glenn. For too long freedom of expression has been muzzled. Clearly, some ideas are freer than others.
As you point out, whether we agree with the writer or artists or not, most importantly, we all must agree on the principle of freedom of expression.
Thank you again.
P.S. As an indication of how muzzled I feel, I wanted to ask in Intercept’s running narrative of the shooting, whether Charlie H. ever published cartoon parodies of Judaism.
When I was a boy during the McCarthy era, I remember reading Milton’s Areopagitica: “Let her and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse in a free and open encounter.”
Thank you again for treading where few dare tread.
Charlie Hebdo definitely mocked Jews and the Pope. But only mocking Mohammed got them killed, even though Muslims are a minority in France.
Of course, Zionist Jews have ethnically cleansed and murdered tens of thousands of Palestinians (500 of their children this past summer), and stolen their land. Indeed, Moshe Dayan said it well in a eulogy for an Israeli soldier killed by imprisoned Gazans in 1956:
Indeed, Gazans would have to be superhuman saints not to fight Israelis under those circumstances. Dayan accepted this reality.
You try to destroy Israel, Zionists will fight back. The only ethnically cleansed places are Gaza and the Arab-controlled areas of the West Bank. When Jordan occupied the West Bank, all the Jews were expelled. It was ethnically cleansed. Jordan is ethnically cleansed. Any Palestinian state is expected to be ethnically cleansed of Jews.
You,re going to lose, and already are. Just as the white Afrikaners lost notwithstanding superior weapons and might. Israel is increasingly seen as the moral leper of the Western world; no Western democracy can survive that way. I commend to you Haaretz’s recent interview of Ehud Barak, an excerpt:
Just so.
And now Jews are fleeing France as the Muslim Jihadist antisemitic population grows. They’re fleeing to Israel, which is a refuge for Jews fleeing antisemitism and pogroms.
Not all to Israel — some come here to the U.S.
Certainly Israel isn’t gaining enough French to make up for the younger Israeli Jews fleeing the proto-fascism there for, of all places, Berlin.
Yeah, you know the numbers?
About 6000 Jews fleeing France to Israel last year, versus about 400 Israelis per year moving to Germany.
Certainly you’re off by an order of magnitude and don’t know what you’re talking about.
You are either lying, or whistling past the graveyard: “Tens of Thousands of Jews Leaving Israel for Germany”
http://americanfreepress.net/?p=20298#sthash.dmZasunF.dpuf
Haaretz also just ran a piece on an Israeli Ph.D. student at a Berlin university who says they have a great expat community there, away from the right-wing insanity. You aren’t going to make those numbers up from France.
Oh look, American Free Press, a neo-Nazi publication.
Here’s the Washington Post.
“Estimating the size of the latest migration of mostly young Israelis AND Western European Jews is statistically difficult, but community leaders and diplomats place the current surge between 3,000 to 20,000 over the past FIVE years.”
So that’s 600 to 4000 per year, but that includes Jews fleeing France to Germany: “I generally feel way safer in Berlin than I felt in Paris,” said a 25-year-old French Jew who moved to Berlin to work for an IT start-up.
Here’s the Economist:
“The German Federal Statistics Office records an increase of just 400 Israeli immigrants per year.”
It’s not clear if that’s an increase in the total number or in the annual rate, but here’s their bottom line:
“Overall, Israel reckons there were about 16,000 new émigrés in 2012, but they were MORE THAN OFFSET by incoming Jews from Eastern Europe, America and France, who tend to be more religious and right-wing.”
But speaking of population, and getting back on topic, the Catholics in France outnumber the Muslims, yet it was the Muslims who firebombed Charlie Hebdo in 2011 and now murdered the cartoonists. If every religion has its crazies, why didn’t Catholic extremists avenge the Pope this way?
From the New Yorker:
Israel is losing its young best and brightest. They don’t want to live in a proto-fascist state increasingly seen as the leper of the Western world. Nothing your Zionist type can do will stop this growing stigma and hemorrhaging of your conscientious citizens.
You’re right! I will bless them that bless thee Israel/Jews and I (GOD) will CURSE them that curse thee. Time for a second French Revolution..All muslims given 48 hrs to leave country or face forced deportation.
Arab cartoon on MSM & the Israel Lobby:
http://archive.adl.org/anti_semitism/arab/cartoons/cartoon5_06_02_14.jpg
The Jews deserve what they receive.. They are parasites and must be EXILED about of all Europe. While I am for their end of existance, I believe that it best for all Europe to throw them out of lands in which they live. The Jews are the cause of everything evil. Two world wars, Hitler, etc.. Jews are the reasons for this. I am Ukrainian and I know this as fact, since the Jews rule Ukraine.
well argumented glenn, part of this large phenomena – the selective use of morality – be it freedom of speech, human rights, integrity – aimed at some and not at others…
Glen,
Of course, Charlie Hebdo should have still enjoyed freedom of the press and from violence. Your article, however, only further portrays your unthinking Jewish-by-birth Anti-Semitism and Anti-Israel point of view that is at odds with your great reporting on NSA issues.
If you really wanted to show how much you applaud the right to obnoxious bigoted cartoons (I agree that they should be able to be published but restraint for encouraging racism is admirable), then you should have shown cartoons about your strongly affiliated social group, gays (whose freedom of choice I espouse).
Showing mostly anti-Jewish cartoons did not prove your point because you have dissociated yourself from the Jewish religion, according to your own writings, and this article only inflames the Anti-Semitism that helped fuel the massacre of four of the innocent individuals killed in Paris last week.
it reminds one of the killing of theo van gogh – the dutch movie maker – killed 10 years ago – , very provocative to the point of being senselessly insulting – coming on television calling muslims goat-fuckers etc. and that was heralded as free speech.
in the same period the dutch media were warned not to mock the royal family by the then prime minister balkende – in a great show of double standards
i think this is what is undermining the ‘western’ public civilisation – the double standards and loss of whatever morality there was. in the end this bites back.
the same has happened with human rights – from a good cause it is now a tool that is used selectively.
Very good article–
I must add
Mr Greenwald, in last paragraph of this article, stated his key point— about all the ways viewpoints and ideas are suppressed in the west.
The west is a consumer circuit board. Its about protecting property. Protecting the market and investments.
It boils down, for 90% of the population to this—–
How can I keep my job…..
Yanking on about the classical virtues of “Freedom of Speech” in our time, is like debating whether vinyl sounds better then digital.
It dosent matter….this is about protecting a consumer circuit that has been soldered with blood for the past 150 years.
—–science has been used in its maintenance.
Along with “Free market solutions”—a market morality.
The suppression of “certain” expression; and the monopoly of ideas by the owners wealth, is absolutely required in this age and its control.
If feeding middle managers latent hatred for the peons it oversees, upper management will eagerly set the table.
To divide, To differentiate. All a part of system circuit construction. How many amps, and where are they going?
Fuses are there to protect the machine, burned and then replaced—the poor and the disenfranchised…..
A digital hierarchical system to be sure.
This violence that we see/participate in, is inherent to the system that formats human communities like this…..
We should care for each other, and speak truth to power….
Very unfair comparison. No group should be exempted from criticism or free journalistic inquiry. Under any circumstances.
But fear of career suicide and professional reprisals doesn’t rise to the same level as two armed gunmen marching into a Paris office and executing their critics with military precision and automatic weapons.
Certainly you seem able to post offensive cartoons without fear of impact to your career and kudos to you for expanding the rights of free speech everywhere. Something tells me you’re not too worried about two 20-year Jewish guys barging into your office with AK-47’s, either.
an you not see the difference between Jews or Blacks or Hispanics or gays who protest anti-semitic, racist, or homophobic cartoons with letter-writing campaigns, and Islamic fundamentalists who “protest” cartoons about Mohammed with fatwas, death threats, and outright massacres? The examples you cite of Larry Flynn’s attack or a random bomb threat by Christians years ago are the exceptions which prove the general rule: Has Carlos Latuff seen his office firebombed by Jewish fanatics for his anti-Israel cartoons? Does he live in real fear that a Jewish fundamentalist might at any moment enter his office and shoot him in the head? Has he been forced into hiding or 24/7 armed protection to safeguard his life (like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Salman Rushdie) from assaults by settlers?
Can you point to any example where a caricaturist has been killed for “blaspheming” Jews or Blacks or Hispanics or gays? If not, can you instead explain your false equivalence between any of those groups expressing their discontent with Holocaust or “wetback” or “watermelon” stereotypes, for instance, and Islamists who set fire to embassies, throw bombs through windows, and murder in cold blood?
I, and other liberals like me (I am gay, agnostic, and a socialist), are rightfully sympathetic to those minorities who are peacefully offended or even outraged by racist, homophobic, or anti-semitic depictions, even if we would not legally insulate them from the insult. In those cases, perhaps we would follow your logic, and protect the demeaning free speech even as we don’t indulge it with reproduction. But we do not equate these reactions to the violence routinely perpetrated by Muslims when it is their ideology insulted. Real bravery is not what you’ve done, perpetuating a series of anti-Israel cartoons which freely proliferate across the world outside the United States. Nobody seriously thinks Netanyahu–who, whatever his faults, permits gay pride parades and is himself non-religious–is going to send the Mossad to avenge his reputation. True courage consists of supplementing free speech critical of Muslims, whose fanatics have a track record of actual savagery. That’s not gratuitous, that’s proving a crucial point. There is also the important distinction that, unlike being Semitic, homosexual, Latino, Black, Asian, or female, there is nothing intrinsic about being a “Muslim.” Islam is an ideological elective, and should be subject to scrutiny based on the promotion of its ideas, not the immanent biological characteristics of its adherents (who have a wide variation of races and ethnicities–the Boston Marathon bombers were, quite literally, Caucasians).
What sort of psychological complex compels you to feel the need to defend Islam, the world’s largest religion, and probably the most virulent right-wing philosophy extant on our planet, while directing your full opprobrium at a tiny religious sect, like Judaism, which seeks neither conversion of anyone (most especially by the ultra-Orthodox, who wholeheartedly reject proselytizing) nor any interest in territory outside the relatively small area they deem to be “Greater Israel”?
Most of the anti-semitic cartoons here are by Greenwald’s fellow Brazilian Communist Carlos Latuff, who in 2006 placed second in the Iranian “International Holocaust Cartoon Competition” that was created in response to the Danish Muhammad cartoons. Latuff also deserves the Godwin Award for equating Israel and America with Nazis while supporting genocidal Jihadists.
So, congratulations, Glen Greenwald, for basically rehashing what Iran did. You bought yourself some time before Jihadists behead you for being a gay atheist American Jew, just as they’ve already beheaded other useful idiot journalists and human rights workers.
Dear Anonymous Smear Artist,
1) Zionism is racism.
2) Judaism ? Zionism.
3) No one is equating Israel and America with Nazis. Either you have difficulty with abstract thought and critical thinking, or you’re being dishonest. Political officials ? country that the officials claim to serve. It should be understood that the cartoonist’s depiction of the political leaders represents not the country but instead the ruling class, the policymakers, those who are really in power (as opposed to the civilians whose power is underdeveloped, especially in the US). Also, you may know (or in any case you should know) that the US capitalist class supported Naziism and fascism in Europe, and that the clandestine agencies of the US government supported right wing groups, terrorist networks, and fascists during and long after WWII.
4) If you don’t know that Washington and London have long fueled and supported right wing “Islamic terrorism” in order to advance imperialist objectives, read Mark Curtis, John Pilger, and Peter Dale Scott.
5) Your dig at Iran ignores history. Who was it that overthrew Iran’s democratically elected leader? Who was it that reinstated the brutal tyrant, the Shah, and supported the repressive, brutal internal police (SAVAK) and intelligence apparatus? You speak of “jihadists” but you dishonestly leave out the fact that Uncle Sam and the capitalist class have long been allies with these very jihadists. Did you know that jihad means “struggle”? Are you aware of how the ruling class carries out it’s class “jihad” from above, and how instrumental and strategic its support of right wing terrorist groups is to maintaining and perpetuating the unjust, imperialist political, social, and economic (dis)order?
6) Why would you think that Greenwald identifies as a “gay atheist American Jew”? He’s a courageous human being, and you could learn a lot from him about responsibility and using one’s power to advance justice and truth.
Evolve, Brother. Evolve.
“Power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anemic. Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice, and justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love.”
– King
that question mark in #2 above should have been “not equals sign”, so that it reads “Judaism is not equal to Zionism.” And in fact, the rich tradition of social justice in Judaism, of which the original anonymous commenter is apparently ignorant, itself refutes any dishonest equation of the two or apologies for Zionism and Islamophobia.
Also, for the question mark here in #3 above, in “Political officials ? country”, that should have read “Political officials are not equivalent, that is, are not to be equated with the country that the officials claim to serve (since in reality, they serve the ruling class).”
Anti-Zionism is antisemitism. It’s also KGB propaganda. Look up the KGB-invented pseudoscience of Zionology.
From Wikipedia: “Soviet anti-Zionism was a propaganda doctrine promulgated in the Soviet Union during the course of the Cold War and intensified after the 1967 Six Day War. It was officially sponsored by the Department of propaganda of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and by the KGB. It alleged that Zionism was a form of racism and argued that Zionists were similar to Nazis. The Soviet Union framed its anti-Jewish and anti-Zionist propaganda in terms of the ideological doctrine of Zionology, in the guise of a study of modern Zionism.”
That’s what Latuff’s cartoons represent.
Notice how Russian propaganda now calls Ukraine and Estonia fascists.
Yeah, that Judah Magnes was a raging Jew-hater.
You are funny.
“Why would you think that Greenwald identifies as a gay atheist American Jew?”
That’s how Jihadists identify him. Again, consider the Western bleeding hearts who were beheaded by ISIS and became bleeding necks. ISIS didn’t care that they were anti-Assad, only that they’re Western infidels.
“No one is equating Israel and America with Nazis”
Latuff is. “Uncle Sam wants you DEAD!” by Latuff shows Adolf Hitler with Uncle Sam’s top-hat (representing the United States) and a Nazi swastika atop it.
Uncle Sam isn’t the country. It’s a personification of the capitalist ruling class. Policymakers and imperial planners often claim to be working on behalf of the country, the American people, the nation, “the national interest”, but their pronouns “we”, “us”, and “our” should not be mistaken to indicate that they [either believe or that they actually] are serving the people of America. They’re con men (and women). They try to deceive us about the reality of class warfare, and class tensions, and class interests, and they try to promote the fiction of a classless society, of harmonious co-existence (illustrated in expressions such as “we’re all in this together”) .
For more on Uncle Sam and the ruling class agenda, see Chomsky’s classic primer, “What Uncle Sam Really Wants”:
http://www.cyberspacei.com/jesusi/authors/chomsky/sam/sam.htm
The US government and ruling class has long ago overtaken the Nazis and the British Empire (the latter of which continues to remain out of the awareness of most Americans when compiling lists of World’s Most Dangerous Regimes and Terrorists) in committing atrocities. See:
http://williamblum.org/chapters/rogue-state/united-states-bombings-of-other-countries
http://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list
Per wiki:
How is that cartoon, if as described, antisemitic?
Look up “Holocaust inversion.” Basically, antisemites always demonize Jews as the ultimate evil. For Muslim and Christian antisemites, the ultimate evil is killing prophets, so they call Jews “prophet killers” or “Christ killers.” But nowadays, the ultimate evil is Nazis, so that’s how antisemites depict Jews and Israel, even though it’s an inversion of reality.
Or listen to reformed Jihadist Kasim Hafeez describe how he and his fellow Muslim college students used to equate Israel with Nazi Germany just because they got off on provoking Jews, knowing that the Holocaust is still an open wound, even though Kasim’s own father praised Hitler and said Hitler’s only mistake was not finishing what he started.
Interesting theoretical stuff, but I see the Holocaust as a universal lesson. Jews are not the only victims in history, and they have become victimizers of the Palestinians.
In any event, if that’s the best you can do to “explain” how Latuff’s cartoon is antisemitic, you failed.
Again, I turn to Howard Zinn (1922-2010) who himself was a bombardier in WWII, and who in an essay titled “Respecting the Holocaust,” wrote:
See essay here: http://books.google.com/books?id=FiGX0LEy4jMC&pg=PA105
Do you have any support for your assertion that Glenn claims to be an atheist?
Asked if he believes in God, Greenwald said that he grew up without organized religion. “My parents tried to inculcate me a little bit into organized Judaism, but they weren’t particularly devoted to that, and my grandparents were, but it just never took hold. I wasn’t bar mitzvahed or anything. So I never had organized religion,” Greenwald said.
“I do believe in the spiritual and mystical part of the world. Like, obviously yoga is like a bridge into that, like a window into it. I think other things are as well. But my moral precepts aren’t informed in any way by religious doctrine or, like, organized religion or anything.”
That won’t qualify him for Dhimmitude, which is reserved for “people of the Book,” i.e. Bible believers. In the eyes of Jihadists, he’s an infidel, as are the anti-religious Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.
As I thought, you can’t cite anything for your claim that Glenn is an atheist. Tho I identify as one, and wouldn’t necessarily quarrel with what he said about spiritual and mystical aspects to the world. But bottom line: I’ve never heard him identify as an atheist.
Mystics of all religions, including Islam (see: Sufism) would welcome the insights you’ve quoted Glenn expressing here.
Spirituality and religion are not necessarily synonymous.
Not once since reading my first Cindy comment here have I ever thought you’re in any way naive.
Anti-zionism and anti-semitism are not the same thing. One is against Israeli policy, the other is against a religious/ethnic group of people. Treating criticism of Israel as the latter has been an effective way to curb free speech.
I wasn’t at all surprised to see many repeat the lie that the Charlie Hebdo attacks were an assault on “free speech.”
The flipside of freedom is responsibility. I didn’t hear anyone bring up “the responsibility [of civilians] to dissent and object to violence and injustice” including Islamophobia, which Charlie Hebdo enthusiastically promoted in service of imperialism.
That’s a strong accusation. Your evidence is?
The invention and promotion of Islamophobia serves the political and economic objectives of the ruling class. The ruling class needs racism, needs divisions along artificial lines (race, religion, national identity, etc) which undermine class solidarity and subvert the capacity for empathy. Dehumanization and other-ing is instrumental, and publications like Charlie Hebdo, which are falsely called satirical (because in fact they conspicuously avoid upsetting and exposing those who are actually in power), assist the ruling class by validating and reinforcing smears and lies. Charlie Hebdo became a weapon, a crude cultural bludgeon, against the victims of Empire.
“[T]here is no such thing as a pure fact. Behind every fact presented to the world — by a teacher, a writer, anyone — is a judgement. The judgement that has been made is that this fact is important, and that other facts, omitted, are not important and so they are omitted from the presentation. […] The consequence of these omissions has been not simply to give a distorted view of the past but, more importantly, to mislead us all about the present.”
– Howard Zinn
“The chief problem in historical honesty is not outright lying. It is omission or de-emphasis of important data. The definition of ‘important’, of course, depends on one’s values.”
– Zinn
I’ve seen no evidence of that, and a great deal that contradicts it. Including that al Qaeda itself repeatedly cites “blasphemy” as the motive for the slaughter. Charlie Hebdo blasphemes constantly against Xtianity and Islam. They also mock right-wing parties and politicians.
Being contrarian is not the same as being subversive. We should demand some sophistication of ostensible critics. Mockery is a poor substitute for affirming the dignity, equality, and worth of our brothers and sisters. Even in “Late Capitalism,” we can and must do better than enshrine and applaud or snicker at the low humor of Charlie Hebdo (or Stephen Colbert or TDS).
As for “blasphemy”, have you had a chance to read Chris Hedges’ “Losing Moses on the Freeway”? He looks at the Decalogue and goes beyond the popular (mis)understandings and oversimplifications of the Commandments, unearthing/renewing their universal message.
What is more blasphemous than war and the self-righteous violence of the imperial policy makers and ruling class?
That’s all very interesting, and raises several interesting conversation points one could follow. However, it does not demonstrate that Charlie Hebdo “enthusiastically promotes Islamophobia in service of imperialism.”
Blaspheming against god(s) is a venerable Enlightenment tradition, and no more so than in aggressively secular France.
Mona, is it the “enthusiastic” part that you’re not persuaded of, or the “service of imperialism” part?
.
“enthusiastically” “Islamophobia” and “imperialism”
Mona, are you familiar with Deepa Kumar’s book on Islamophobia?
No.
That’s all well and good. You can’t judge the CH cartoons unless you see them and newspapers, like the the uk guardian this week, who don’t republish them AT ALL under some spurious basis that to do so would be to echo the CH editorial line, are essentially failing to publish a critical aspect of the news story and doing so under the pretty nauseating pretence to a moral high ground. Any newspaper can publish the cartoons, and any piece of news, without ‘agreeing with the content’ and leave the readers to judge. I also think that publishing the cartoons while contextualising them is still an important stance for free speech. I can’t think of any other circumstance where a newspaper wouldn’t publish something so newsworthy. The image of the police officer being shot was widely disseminated in the papers in the uk for example and what about cartoons like this, which The Uk Guardian WILL publish – http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2010/sep/16/steve-bell-pope-visit-britain. It seems to me that the obvious conclusion is that the Guardian and other papers failed to publish for fear of reprisals and only the UK independent admitted as much, which at least has the virtue of honesty. Better than calling someone an ‘asshole’ for pointing it out, which is what the NYT editor has done!
“We vomit on all these people who suddenly say they are our friends.”
-Dutch Charlie Hebdo cartoonist, Bernard Holtrop, whose pen name is Willem.
http://news.yahoo.com/vomit-charlies-sudden-friends-staff-cartoonist-163403612.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory&soc_trk=tw
If the NYT publishes ant-muslim KKK cartoons as you and Bill Kristol are demanding. Can we do the same for anti-Aipac cartoons. Or that’s where you draw the line?
The argument seems to be, we don’t resort to violence, we just get them fired and destroy their livelihood. Just another method of inducing fear and censorship. Both anti-free speech.
Mr. Greenwald offers a thought-provoking and well presented analysis. However, it quickly fails in its objective, unless its objective was to provide an opportunity for him to republish anti-Semitic cartoons.
Ironically, Greenwald invokes the ACLU and its defense of the KKK in a Skokie, IL march to argue that one can defend the right to free speech without agreeing with offensive speech. Yet to make his points, he then conflates republishing Hedbo cartoons with agreeing with their content. That’s obviously a false assumption that completely ignores context; republishing Hedbo cartoons does not amount to “joining the march.”
Twelve people were murdered by extremists whose goal was to eliminate speech they find offensive. A representative of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula stated that they were teaching the French (and presumably the rest of us) a lesson about the limits of free speech.
In this context, Douthat, Chait, Yglesias, Rushdie and many others are right. Greenwald is wrong. Questions about Charlie Hedbo’s intent and the practices of publishers with respect to anti-Semitic or anti-whatever cartoons are basically a red herring. They do nothing other than form a distraction from the real issue, which in this instance is how best to respond to murderous attempts by extremists to hijack the values of a free society.
Mr. Greenwald’s freedom to reprint without risk obnoxious cartoons for his own reasons, gratuitous or otherwise, is exactly the freedom that other cartoonists, editorialists and publishers are willing to protect through deliberate acts that involve risk, and that embrace our larger ideals without accepting the offensive material itself.
Je suis Charlie.
Mr. Greenwald,
What an incredible breath of fresh air and insight. [In Solidarity With a Free Press: Some More Blasphemous Cartoons]
Along the lines of your story…From my research, the only Hebdo reaction to France’s banning of the Burka was this Cartoon which used that blatantly repressive law as yet another excuse to vulgarly attack Muslims with the gross cartoon where the Muslim woman says ‘I’ll wear it on the inside’. Sick and sad.
Thanks for your good work,
Chip Shirley
If someone published an anti Israel or anti Christian cartoon it might prompt a media driven backlash but I doubt it would result in mass riots and credible death threats. Publishing anti Islam cartoons clearly would. Therefore, whatever your personal feelings on the rights and wrongs of these disparate world views, it strikes me that it is far more dangerous to publish anti Islam cartoons; to publish the others is controversial, but hardly requiring of an especial courage.
And this is why, the West, which provides more freedom of speech than the Muslim world does, is the best place to reform Islam in some key areas:
A Saudi blogger convicted of insulting Islam was brought after Friday prayers to a public square in the port city of Jeddah and flogged 50 times before hundreds of spectators, a witness to the lashing said.
The witness said Raif Badawi’s feet and hands were shackled during the flogging but his face was visible. He remained silent and did not cry out, said the witness, who spoke to the Associated Press on condition of anonymity fearing government reprisal.
Badawi was sentenced last May to 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes. He had criticized Saudi Arabia’s powerful clerics on a liberal blog he founded. The blog has since been shut down. He was also ordered to pay a fine of 1m riyals or about $266,600.
From Digby, at http://digbysblog.blogspot.ca/2015/01/objectively-pro-islamic-fundamentalist.html
I think that’s true in some respects, but it’s complicated by the fact that the House of Saud (and thus Wahhabism) wouldn’t exist without the strategic support of its patrons.
wow, it doesn’t get more accurate than this article. WOW!
Not quite sure why everyone is so impressed with Voltaire.
“The Jew does not belong to any place except that place which he makes money; would he not just as easily betray the King on behalf of the Emperor as he would the Emperor for the King?” – Voltaire (Katz, 44).
“The Jewish nation dares to display an irreconcilable hatred toward all nations, and revolts against all masters; always superstitious, always greedy for the well-being enjoyed by others, always barbarous — cringing in misfortune and insolent in prosperity.” —Voltaire, Essai sur les mœurs (1756) Tome 1
“You seem to me to be the maddest of the lot. The Kaffirs, the Hottentots, and the Negroes of Guinea are much more reasonable and more honest people than your ancestors, the Jews. You have surpassed all nations in impertinent fables in bad conduct and in barbarism. You deserve to be punished, for this is your destiny.” —Voltaire, From a letter to a Jew who had written to him, complaining of his antisemitism in L’Essai sur le Moeurs
“… [Jews] are, all of them, born with raging fanaticism in their hearts, just as the Bretons and the Germans are born with blond hair. I would not be in the least bit surprised if these people would not some day become deadly to the human race.” —Voltaire, Lettres de Memmius a Ciceron (1771)
“I know that there are some Jews in the English colonies. These marranos go wherever there is money to be made… But whether these circumcised who sell old clothes claim that they are of the tribe of Naphtali or Issachar is not of the slightest importance. They are, simply, the biggest scoundrels who have ever dirtied the face of the earth.” —Voltaire, Letter to Jean-Baptiste Nicolas de Lisle de Sales, December 15, 1773. Correspondance. 86:166
Well nobody’s perfect. Jefferson was a slave-raper, but the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom was still pretty good.
I don’t know that T.J. raped anyone, but aside from that your point would only be a valid comparison if Jefferson were being referenced approvingly in terms of his views on prejudice and race relations, which he never is. Voltaire is being lauded here by many as a man whose satiric criticism inspired a nation, and his satire is precisely what is highly suspect, as the quotes reveal.
Jefferson had sex with a woman he owned. She could not say no. He raped her. Repeatedly.
Karl Marx on Jews:
There’s tons more of revolting Jew-hating stuff from Marx, but you get the idea.
You don’t know she was raped, repeatedly or otherwise, but again that’s beside the point.
And if there were “people of Marx” – just as you say the French are “people of Voltaire” – would you praise and trust either him or them for a supposedly agenda-free stance with regard to ridicule and humiliating criticism of a religion or race?
Yes, I do. 1. Jefferson owned her, and 2. while owning her, put his penis in her vagina.
There are. I read many of them. Glenn addresses them at their conference every summer. As far as I know, no one serious has ever claimed the Chicago socialism conference is anti-semitic, or that Glenn supports anti-semitism by keynoting them.
God, you’re a squirmy little weasel, Mona.
Again, whether Jefferson raped Sally (which he may well have done, but I don’t accept your reasoning for declaring it emphatically so) is beside the point I’ve made.
Marxism and Marxist theory is class-based and entirely dismissive and independent of Marx’s anti-Semitism – evidently with good reason – while Voltaire is being praised here by you FOR his satiric criticism WHICH CANNOT BE DIVORCED FROM HIS ANTI-SEMITISM SINCE IT INCLUDES IT.
Maybe you should refer to the French as “the people of Voltaire, only not racist like him.”
Marx’s racist rhetoric is not affinitative with Voltaire’s plainly eliminationist frame of Jewry.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/05/corr-m13.html
But your point stands, Voltaire’s antisemitism doesn’t indicate a tradition of satire is inherently antisemitic or racist. It merely implicates its capacity for unconscious bigotry.
Perhaps the lesson is that most racists simply don’t know they’re racists. a) It’s a relatively recent concept in human consciousness b) any challenged hierarchy will attempt to recuperate itself
“Yes, I do. 1. Jefferson owned her, and 2. while owning her, put his penis in her vagina.”
I have to say that really made me laugh, such a great way to respond…. Very funny… the essential facts involved in the RAPE were clearly set out.
I’m sorry Cindy, but you are simply in error across the board:
No. Marx took Jews to be the very embodiment of capitalist greed. For informal purposes here, I’d refer you to the wiki entry for Marx’s work, “On the Jewish Question.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question Excerpt, my emphasis:
It’s certainly easier to divorce Voltaire from anything “witty” he ever said about Jews from his critiques of religion, on the one hand, than it is to divorce Marx from his economic and sociological views of Jews and Judaism on the other.
You should indeed be sorry. You are really demonstrating how pathetic you can be when cornered.
Your attempts at muddying the issue with this latest disjointed hysterical jabbering are almost amusing.
” Maybe you should refer to the French as “the people of Voltaire, only not racist like him.” ”
I am French, I do not believe in god, I am not a racist and I 100% agree with The Rights of Freedom of Expression.
About Voltaire :
“The most oft-cited Voltaire quotation is apocryphal. He is incorrectly credited with writing, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” These were not his words, but rather those of Evelyn Beatrice Hall, written under the pseudonym S. G. Tallentyre in her 1906 biographical book The Friends of Voltaire. Hall intended to summarize in her own words Voltaire’s attitude towards Claude Adrien Helvétius and his controversial book De l’esprit, but her first-person expression was mistaken for an actual quotation from Voltaire. Her interpretation does capture the spirit of Voltaire’s attitude towards Helvetius; it had been said Hall’s summary was inspired by a quotation found in a 1770 Voltaire letter to an Abbot le Riche, in which he was reported to have said, “I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.”[39] Nevertheless, scholars believe there must have again been misinterpretation, as the letter does not seem to contain any such quote.[40]” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaire#Prose
“Not quite sure why everyone is so impressed with Voltaire.” <=================
1/- In a letter to Frederick II, King of Prussia, dated 5 January 1767, he wrote about Christianity: "[Christianity] is assuredly the most ridiculous, the most absurd and the most bloody religion which has ever infected this world. Your Majesty will do the human race an eternal service by extirpating this infamous superstition, I do not say among the rabble, who are not worthy of being enlightened and who are apt for every yoke; I say among honest people, among men who think, among those who wish to think. … My one regret in dying is that I cannot aid you in this noble enterprise, the finest and most respectable which the human mind can point out.."
In La bible enfin expliquee, he considered Bible as: It is characteristic of fanatics who read the holy scriptures to tell themselves: God killed, so I must kill; Abraham lied, Jacob deceived, Rachel stole: so I must steal, deceive, lie. But, wretch, you are neither Rachel, nor Jacob, nor Abraham, nor God; you are just a mad fool, and the popes who forbade the reading of the Bible were extremely wise.[102]
2/- In his tragedy Le Fanatisme ou Mahomet, Voltaire described Mohammed as an "impostor", a " false prophet", a "fanatic" and a "hypocrite".[49][50] Voltaire defended the play, he said that he "tried to show in it into what horrible excesses fanaticism, led by an impostor, can plunge weak minds".[51]
When Voltaire wrote in 1742 to César de Missy, he described Mohammed as a "deceitful character."[52][53]
3/- Despite the criticism of Abrahamic religions, Voltaire had a positive view of Hinduism;[103] the sacred text Vedas was remarked on by him as follows: The Veda was the most precious gift for which the West had ever been indebted to the East.[104]
4/- According to the rabbi Joseph Telushkin, the most significant of Enlightenment hostility against Judaism was found in Voltaire;[108] thirty of the 118 articles in his Dictionnaire philosophique dealt with Jews and described them in consistently negative ways.[109][110]
5/- In a 1763 essay, Voltaire supported the toleration of other religions and ethnicities: "It does not require great art, or magnificently trained eloquence, to prove that Christians should tolerate each other. I, however, am going further: I say that we should regard all men as our brothers. What? The Turk my brother? The Chinaman my brother? The Jew? The Siam? Yes, without doubt; are we not all children of the same father and creatures of the same God?"[114]
6/- Voltaire rejected the Christian Adam and Eve story and was a polygenist who speculated that each race had separate origins.[115] Like other philosophes, such as Buffon, he divided humanity into varieties or races and attempted to explain the differences between these races. He wondered if blacks fully shared in the common humanity or intelligence of whites because of their participation in the slave trade.[116][117]
His most famous remark on slavery is found in Candide, where the hero is horrified to learn "at what price we eat sugar in Europe" after coming across a slave in French Guinea who has been mutilated for escaping, who opines that, if all human beings have common origins as the Bible taught, it makes them cousins, concluding that "no one could treat their relatives more horribly". Elsewhere, he wrote caustically about "whites and Christians [who] proceed to purchase negroes cheaply, in order to sell them dear in America".[119][120] Voltaire believed in the inferiority of Africans and supported the slave trade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaire#Religion
We all have to *update* frequently our own memory and our own knowledge !
– The French Wars of Religion (1562–98) is the name of a period of civil infighting and military operations, primarily fought between French Catholics and Protestants (Huguenots). Between 2,000,000 and 4,000,000 people were killed[1] and at the conclusion of the conflict in 1598, Huguenots were granted substantial rights and freedoms by the Edict of Nantes, though it did not end hostility towards them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre
– "The Troubles" refers to the three decades of violence between elements of Northern Ireland's Irish nationalist community (mainly self-identified as Irish and/or Roman Catholic) and its unionist community (mainly self-identified as British and/or Protestant). Between 1969 and 2001, 3,531 people were killed as a result of the conflict
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
Charlie Chaplin final speech in The Great Dictator : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4
Manufacturing Consent – Noam Chomsky and the Media (1992) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO51ahW9JlE
[throwing hands in air]
As I know from extensive reading, Karl Marx detested Jews and Judaism for, he claimed, constituting all that is worst about capitalism. I showed you this is so, that this was his fundamental view — and the above is your response?
Ok, then.
I hadn’t considered you were actually stupid. Read the following carefully.
You imply Marx’s philosophy and class distinctions were more inherently anti-Semitic than Voltaire’s criticism, and (I suppose you) wish to say Marxism survived ‘selective editing,’ why shouldn’t Voltaire-ism?
The answer is BECAUSE MARX ISN’T NOW REGARDED FOR HIS CRITICISM OF JEWS, but for his class-based philosophy of Communism, and Voltaire is promoted by you as a champion of satiric criticism WHICH IRREMOVABLY INCLUDES RELEVANTLY DISGUSTING THINGS ABOUT JEWS. One can remove anti-Semitism successfully from Marxism (indeed you concede that Marxists have done so) and retain a social philosophy, but one cannot remove anti-Semitism from Voltaire’s significance as a satiric critic without misrepresenting his work.
But hey, go ahead and try to muddy the issue up more, and throw up your hands wherever you like. I’m done.
This is basically true:
But this is not, and nor do you cite any reasoning or evidence for it:
Voltaire’s critique of religion and its supernatural claims — and especially the Roman Catholic Church — stands independently from the antisemitism he shared with many of his time.
You said: “Voltaire’s critique of religion and its supernatural claims — and especially the Roman Catholic Church — stands independently from the antisemitism he shared with many of his time.”
No, not necessarily it doesn’t. You just want it to. It obviously doesn’t amount to a coherent socio-political philosophy (as exhibited by Jefferson and Marx, independent of their rank prejudices), and it is certainly not free of the dubious taint of damning all supernaturalism under one narrow-minded umbrella.
Try critical thinking. You’d be good at it, but it requires consistency, self-honesty and humility, which you apparently lack currently.
Okay. Now I’m done, unless you petulantly and disingenuously blurt out something else in need of clarification.
Yes, I did say that. And while perhaps someone could provide facts and reasoning that would prove me wrong, you have not.
Cindy doesn’t wish to discuss this any more. It’s a hill on which she has wisely seen she is likely to die.
Jefferson’s oratories and legislative contributions to the cause of human freedom are not utterly eviscerated by his hypocrisy in owning and raping a slave, as you pointed out. Ditto for Voltaire as a brilliant anti-religious satirist (e.g., Candide), notwithstanding his antisemitism.
Well, you don’t appear to appreciate ‘facts and reasoning.’
It is a fact that Voltaire cannot sensibly be divorced from his racism, and those lauding his legacy as a satiric critic must admit this.
Your being stubbornly defensive about yourself and your dubious, unstable position in this regard is childish and reprehensible.
And the Jefferson rape subject is irrelevant, as I pointed out (while conceding it may be true), Mona.
You just aren’t paying proper attention, because it’s not you (or those who agree with you) talking.
Voltaire the anti-religious satirist, author of great works such as Candide, can be separated from his antisemitism. Your repeated contrary, naked assertions do not alter the fact that this separation exists.
I haven’t read much of Marx, but those words could characterized as melodramatic “self criticism” and not Anti-Semitic, couldn’t it? I’m not saying there’s any merit to the criticism, and is probably a bit pernicious given the time of his writings. But…my dad criticizes Muslims even more vehemently than that, and he is Muslim. He will refer to Muslims as a plague even. But he identifies somewhat as a Muslim. But I have a feeling he is critical because he wants to effect change or something.
I don’t know. But Voltaire definitely sounds like an anti-Semite, even though some of his religion bashing is just genius.
Because Jesus Christ went into the temple and when he saw the Jewish money changers there and he threw their tables over and set all the animals they were selling free does this equate with Jesus being a “Jew hater” as well? Was Jesus Christ “anti-Semetic”?
Voltaire was an antisemite*, and much of his religion-bashing is pure genius.
*Voltaire primarily bashed Jews as a people and for what he took to be their universal bad behaviors, not for their religion.
Cindy, for all I know, Ms. Heming greatly enjoyed her encounters with Jefferson and had spectacular orgasms. But surely we can agree there is something inherently coercive about sex between owner and property?
What about “that is beside the point” remains unclear to you?
“Voltaire the anti-religious satirist, author of great works such as Candide, can be separated from his antisemitism… (blah blah fucking blah) this separation exists.”
No, this ‘ignorance’ exists, you ninny.
Very few know of Voltaire’s repulsive comments, and many (in my opinion) would disavow associating with him if they did.
This is a reply to Mona, above. I shall blame the commenting system for this, but I am in a hurry to go out so I guess it could be me.
“Very few know of Voltaire’s repulsive comments, and many (in my opinion) would disavow associating with him if they did. – Cindy
It’s both ironic and hypocritical that in the comments section of one of the most vigorous expositions of free speech, free press, and the process of reconciliation for the killing of many for espousing the same, we bizarrely find some who propose that even more messengers (such as Voltaire, Hitchen’s, et al.) need to be killed in their entirety simply because some of their message does not fit neatly within their own worldview.
If everyone took this advice, to trash-can whatever person’s entire litany of thoughts and ideas using this grand theory of asinine censorship, we’d all be left with nothing to argue about – or to praise.
“Censorship exercises tutelage over the highest interest of the citizens, their minds… You marvel at the delightful diversity, the inexhaustible riches of nature. You do not ask the rose to smell like a violet; but the richest of all, the mind, is supposed to exist in only a single manner?” – Karl Marx
Liberally educated individuals know; I certainly have since my college days. It isn’t a secret!
But anyway, Voltaire is dead, so I don’t imagine anyone “associated” with him these days. But many, many do continue to esteem his work; Candide and other of his works are still regularly read in university.
You seem to hold the quaint view that all admired figures held the same enlightened views that progressives do in 2015. Margaret Sanger was a racist advocate of eugenics who retained a Hitler supporter on her board of directors; H. L. Mencken held to some casual antisemitism; Abraham Lincoln disliked blacks and was convinced they were intellectually and morally inferior,& etc.
Sillyputty & Mona –
As you both say something very similar here I’ll address both of you together:
I’m saying that in the context of the subject matter here (satire, criticism with regard to gratuitous offense) it is extremely inappropriate – I would say wrong – to praise a satiric critic whose well is poisoned by racism, for the insidious, contemptuous character of the critic is inextricably bound up in the (very precisely defined) expression being approved.
To deny this is to ignore a (perhaps unconsciously) vicious facet of the criticism itself- which is obviously highly relevant in a discussion about how offensive it can be. If there are “people of Voltaire” (h/t Mona) then there are people who do indeed associate with him, and in the context of satire being perhaps unnecessarily inflammatory (again, which is the present subject matter) the significance of this is very serious.
No one would bring up Hitchens (h/t Sillyputty) approvingly in the context of neoconservatism unless they approved of his views and expressions in that regard, just so no one should laud Voltaire in a discussion of racially prejudiced offensive satire – because in point of fact his work precisely in that area (without selective editing) is polluted and vile.
As for the things you *think* I’m saying, I’ll not bother responding.
Voltaire used to rant against the Jesuits, the Jansenists, and yes, also against the Jews.
But is it really necessary to explain to you that the Holocaust and the Russian pogroms occurred long after Voltaire’s death, and that he’s far from their prime inspirator ?. Can you understand you cannot read these quotes with contemporary eyes, in a post-WWII retroactive way ?
In the middle of the XVIth century, the Catholic Church convened in the Spanish city of Valladolid to determine whether “the Indians of the New World” were indeed to be considered as human beings, for God’s sake. And by answering positively, said Church became a f**king pioneer ! Voltaire was born a century and a half later…
Now, compare that to the fact that, until 1967, Australian natives weren’t considered citizens (cf. the John Pilger documentary “Welcome To Australia”).
If you think you’re the first one to raise the matter of these quotes, think again. For the past fifteen years, a small group of radical French/Jewish self-proclaimed exegetes have been taking it upon themselves to “purify” French culture from all its evil influences : exit Voltaire, exit Jaurès, exit Hugo (Ya know, da one from “Less Misserabless”…), and, of course, exit Céline. Though the latter was clearly anti-Semitic, even during WWII, all some of the others had to have done was to have written or pronounced one sentence directed at Jews to be part of the new Club of the Unworthy, and get their whole oeuvre vilified by a bunch of self-appointed XXIst century mind-crimes prosecutors.
Voltaire never started any war. He never killed anybody. To the contrary, he mocked the world’s cynicism and violence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide), and never hesitated to defend someone who had been wrongly accused (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Calas).
It requires more than quickly copy/pasting a few quotations found on the web to define a character like Voltaire, dearest Cindy…
Voltaire used to rant against the Jesuits, the Jansenists, and yes, also against the Jews.
But is it really necessary to explain to you that the Holocaust and the Russian pogroms occurred long after Voltaire’s death, and that he’s far from their prime inspirator ?. Can you understand you cannot read these quotes with contemporary eyes, in a post-WWII retroactive way ?
In the middle of the XVIth century, the Catholic Church convened in the Spanish city of Valladolid to determine whether “the Indians of the New World” were indeed to be considered as human beings, for God’s sake. And by answering positively, said Church became a f**king pioneer ! Voltaire was born a century and a half later…
Now, compare that to the fact that, until 1967, Australian natives weren’t considered citizens (cf. the John Pilger documentary “Welcome To Australia”).
If you think you’re the first one to raise the matter of these quotes, think again. For the past fifteen years, a small group of radical French/Jewish self-proclaimed exegetes have been taking it upon themselves to “purify” French culture from all its evil influences : exit Voltaire, exit Jaurès, exit Hugo (Ya know, da one from “Less Misserabless”…), and, of course, exit Céline. Though the latter was clearly anti-Semitic, even during WWII, all some of the others had to have done was to have written or pronounced one sentence directed at Jews to be part of the new Club of the Unworthy, and get their whole oeuvre vilified by a bunch of self-appointed XXIst century mind-crimes prosecutors.
Voltaire never started any war. He never killed anybody. To the contrary, he mocked the world’s cynicism and violence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide), and never hesitated to defend someone who had been wrongly accused (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Calas).
It requires more than quickly copy/pasting a few quotations found on the web to define a character like Voltaire, dearest Cindy…
__________
Don’t know what it is with these comments again : one time they get posted, the next they don’t, despite the confirmation…
I,as a Christian,have never seen an anti Jewish religion cartoon in my life.I have seen anti Jewish(people),and anti Zionist cartoons.The only connection to Jewish religion for Christians is the 10 Commandments,which are looked on very favorably by most practicing Christians.The Jewish religion is shrouded in mist(other than their holidays,which usually accentuate their persecutions),as to whom one would blame for that,I’m unsure.
The anti Muslim cartoons attack the religion,its founder,and the adherents.
The jews of the modern period are not the same jews of the bible. First off, the bible has multiple sects of this proto-jewish religion like the pharisees, the sadducees, and others that don’t immediately come to the top of my head. All of these sects practiced different beliefs,many that Jesus rebuked. The pharisees had a belief that there were a lot of other elders, like Moses, in connection with God and had their own oral tradition. The oral tradition was eventually written down into a collection today called the Talmud.
It is much more intuitive to think of the the ancient jewish religions in an evolutionary sense. That the cultural and traditions of the time evolved into the modern faces of religion we see today, not that any single religion is the true face of a past one. Although if your religion prescribes that belief on you that if different.
As for the modern jewish religion, the Talmud is the most important text of their religion, not the Torah or the Ten Commandments. You can see for yourself what the Talmud says, which I definitely recommend.
So what?
It’s an appalling religion, rooted quite literally in mass murder and aggression. Created by a literal murderer and child-rapist. And for its entire history it has been spread by armed aggression. Abdur Rahman didn’t knock on peoples’ door in Kafiristan, he had his soldiers drag them from their homes and if they refused to convert to Islam those soldiers cut their heads off. And the very same process is happening today in Sudan and Nigeria.
Faurisson affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair
The Faurisson affair is a term given to an academic controversy in the wake of a book by French scholar Robert Faurisson, a Holocaust denier. The scandal largely dealt with the inclusion of an essay by American linguist Noam Chomsky, entitled “Some Elementary Comments on the Rights of Freedom of Expression”, as an introduction to Faurisson’s book, without Chomsky’s knowledge or approval. Responding to a request for comment in a climate of attacks on Faurisson, Chomsky defended Faurisson’s right to express and publish his opinions on the grounds that freedom of speech must be extended to all viewpoints, no matter how unpopular or fallacious.
Some Elementary Comments on The Rights of Freedom of Expression
Noam Chomsky
Appeared as a Preface to Robert Faurisson, Mémoire en défense, October 11, 1980
The remarks that follow are sufficiently banal so that I feel that an apology is in order to reasonable people who may happen to read them. If there is, nevertheless, good reason to put them on paper — and I fear that there is — this testifies to some remarkable features of contemporary French intellectual culture.
Before I turn to the subject on which I have been asked to comment, two clarifications are necessary. The remarks that follow are limited in two crucial respects. First: I am concerned here solely with a narrow and specific topic, namely, the right of free expression of ideas, conclusions and beliefs. I have nothing to say here about the work of Robert Faurisson or his critics, of which I know very little, or about the topics they address, concerning which I have no special knowledge. Second: I will have some harsh (but merited) things to say about certain segments of the French intelligentsia, who have demonstrated that they have not the slightest concern for fact or reason, as I have learned from unpleasant personal experience that I will not review here. Certainly, what I say does not apply to many others, who maintain a firm commitment to intellectual integrity. This is not the place for a detailed account. The tendencies to which I refer are, I believe, sufficiently significant to merit attention and concern, but I would not want these comments to be misunderstood as applying beyond their specific scope.
Some time ago I was asked to sign a petition in defense of Robert Faurisson’s “freedom of speech and expression.” The petition said absolutely nothing about the character, quality or validity of his research, but restricted itself quite explicitly to a defense of elementary rights that are taken for granted in democratic societies, calling upon university and government officials to “do everything possible to ensure the [Faurisson’s] safety and the free exercise of his legal rights.” I signed it without hesitation.
The fact that I had signed the petition aroused a storm of protest in France. In the Nouvel Observateur, an ex-Stalinist who has changed allegiance but not intellectual style published a grossly falsified version of the contents of the petition, amidst a stream of falsehoods that merit no comment. This, however, I have come to regard as normal. I was considerably more surprised to read in Esprit (September 1980) that Pierre Vidal-Naquet found the petition “scandaleuse,” citing specifically that fact that I had signed it (I omit the discussion of an accompanying article by the editor that again merits no comment, at least among people who retain a commitment to elementary values of truth and honesty).
Vidal-Naquet offers exactly one reason for finding the petition, and my act of signing it, “scandaleuse”: the petition, he claims, presented Faurisson’s ” ‘conclusions’ comme si elles etaient effectivement des decouvertes [as if they had just been discovered].” Vidal-Naquet’s statement is false. The petition simply stated that Faurisson had presented his “finding,” which is uncontroversial, stating or implying precisely nothing about their value and implying nothing about their validity. Perhaps Vidal-Naquet was misled by faulty understanding of the English wording of the petition; that is, perhaps he misunderstood the English word “findings.” It is, of course, obvious that if I say that someone presented his “findings” I imply nothing whatsoever about their character or validity; the statement is perfectly neutral in this respect. I assume that it was indeed a simple misunderstanding of the text that led Vidal-Naquet to write what he did, in which case he will, of course, publicly withdraw that accusation that I (among others) have done something “scandaleuse” in signing an innocuous civil rights petition of the sort that all of us sign frequently.
I do not want to discuss individuals. Suppose, then, that some person does indeed find the petition “scandaleuse,” not on the basis of misreading, but because of what it actually says. Let us suppose that this person finds Faurisson’s ideas offensive, even horrendous, and finds his scholarship to be a scandal. Let us suppose further that he is correct in these conclusions — whether he is or not is plainly irrelevant in this context. Then we must conclude that the person in question believes that the petition was “scandaleuse” because Faurisson should indeed be denied the normal rights of self-expression, should be barred from the university, should be subjected to harassment and even violence, etc. Such attitudes are not uncommon. They are typical, for example of American Communists and no doubt their counterparts elsewhere. Among people who have learned something from the 18th century (say, Voltaire) it is a truism, hardly deserving discussion, that the defense of the right of free expression is not restricted to ideas one approves of, and that it is precisely in the case of ideas found most offensive that these rights must be most vigorously defended. Advocacy of the right to express ideas that are generally approved is, quite obviously, a matter of no significance. All of this is well-understood in the United States, which is why there has been nothing like the Faurisson affair here. In France, where a civil libertarian tradition is evidently not well-established and where there have been deep totalitarian strains among the intelligentsia for many years (collaborationism, the great influence of Leninism and its offshoots, the near-lunatic character of the new intellectual right, etc.), matters are apparently quite different.
For those who are concerned with the state of French intellectual culture, the Faurisson affair is not without interest. Two comparisons immediately come to mind. The first is this. I have frequently signed petitions — indeed, gone to far greater lengths — on behalf of Russian dissidents whose views are absolutely horrendous: advocates of ongoing U.S. savagery in Indochina, or of policies that would lead to nuclear war, or of a religious chauvinism that is reminiscent of the dark ages. No one has ever raised an objection. Should someone have done so, I would regard this with the same contempt as is deserved by the behavior of those who denounce the petition in support of Faurisson’s civil rights, and for exactly the same reason. I do not read the Communist Party press, but I have little doubt that the commissars and apparatchiks have carefully perused these petitions, seeking out phrases that could be maliciously misinterpreted, in an effort to discredit these efforts to prevent the suppression of human rights. In comparison, when I state that irrespective of his views, Faurisson’s civil rights should be guaranteed, this is taken to be “scandaleuse” and a great fuss is made about it in France. The reason for the distinction seems obvious enough. In the case of the Russian dissidents, the state (our states) approves of supporting them, for its own reasons, which have little to do with concern for human rights, needless to say. In the case of Faurisson, however, defense of his civil rights is not officially approved doctrine — far from it — so that segments of the intelligentsia, who are ever eager to line up and march off to the beat of the drums, do not perceive any need to take the stance accepted without question in the case of Soviet dissidents. In France, there may well be other factors: perhaps a lingering guilt about disgraceful behavior of substantial sectors under Vichy, the failure to protest the French wars in Indochina, that lasting impact of Stalinism and more generally Leninist doctrines, the bizarre and dadaistic character of certain streams of intellectual life in postwar France which makes rational discourse appear to be such an odd and unintelligible pastime, the currents of anti-Semitism that have exploded into violence.
A second comparison also comes to mind. I rarely have much good to say about the mainstream intelligentsia in the United States, who generally resemble their counterparts elsewhere. Still, it is very illuminating to compare the reaction to the Faurisson affair in France and to the same phenomenon here. In the United States, Arthur Butz (whom one might regard as the American Faurisson) has not been subjected to the kind of merciless attack levelled against Faurisson. When the “no holocaust” historians hold a large international meeting in the United States, as they did some months ago, there is nothing like the hysteria that we find in France over the Faurisson affair. When the American Nazi Party calls for a parade in the largely Jewish city of Skokie, Illinois — obviously, pure provocation — the American Civil Liberties Union defends their rights (though of course, the American Communist Party is infuriated). As far as I am aware, much the same is true in England or Australia, countries which, like the United States, have a live civil libertarian tradition. Butz and the rest are sharply criticized and condemned, but without any attack on their civil rights, to my knowledge. There is no need, in these countries, for an innocuous petition such as the one that is found “scandaleuse” in France, and if there were such a petition, it would surely not be attacked outside of limited and insignificant circles. The comparison is, again, illuminating. One should try to understand it. One might argue, perhaps, that Nazism and anti-Semitism are much more threatening in France. I think that this is true, but it is simply a reflection of the same factors that led to the Leninism of substantial sectors of the French intelligentsia for a long period, their contempt for elementary civil libertarian principles today, and their current fanaticism in beating the drums for crusades against the Third World. There are, in short, deep-seated totalitarian strains that emerge in various guises, a matter well worth further consideration, I believe.
Let me add a final remark about Faurisson’s alleged “anti-Semitism.” Note first that even if Faurisson were to be a rabid anti-Semite and fanatic pro-Nazi — such charges have been presented to me in private correspondence that it would be improper to cite in detail here — this would have no bearing whatsoever on the legitimacy of the defense of his civil rights. On the contrary, it would make it all the more imperative to defend them since, once again, it has been a truism for years, indeed centuries, that it is precisely in the case of horrendous ideas that the right of free expression must be most vigorously defended; it is easy enough to defend free expression for those who require no such defense. Putting this central issue aside, is it true that Faurisson is an anti-Semite or a neo-Nazi? As noted earlier, I do not know his work very well. But from what I have read — largely as a result of the nature of the attacks on him — I find no evidence to support either conclusion. Nor do I find credible evidence in the material that I have read concerning him, either in the public record or in private correspondence. As far as I can determine, he is a relatively apolitical liberal of some sort. In support of the charge of anti-Semitism, I have been informed that Faurisson is remembered by some schoolmates as having expressed anti-Semitic sentiments in the 1940s, and as having written a letter that some interpret as having anti-Semitic implications at the time of the Algerian war. I am a little surprised that serious people should put such charges forth — even in private — as a sufficient basis for castigating someone as a long-time and well-known anti-Semitic. I am aware of nothing in the public record to support such charges. I will not pursue the exercise, but suppose we were to apply similar standards to others, asking, for example, what their attitude was towards the French war in Indochina, or to Stalinism, decades ago. Perhaps no more need be said.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19801011.htm
It seem to me the obvious point is that Glenn still will not need armed bodyguards.
Juan Cole has an interesting post on all of this and, in my mind, it lends a cautionary note to any attempt to funnel the reasons behind such atrocities into only one or another conveniently obvious provocation:
Paris Terrorist was Radicalized by Bush’s Iraq War, Abu Ghraib Torture
I have no reason to doubt that the war in Iraq, and the treatment of Muslims there and elsewhere, affected these young men, their life choices and their actions, but I think Cole glosses over the prequel situation of young men from families which immigrated from a country previously colonialized by France, who find difficulty becoming an accepted part of their country as a result of circumstances and prejudices not of their own making. I believe all of these things had some impact on the tragedy that unfolded in Paris, and we do ourselves a disservice at times by trying to whittle the argument down to just one or two contributing factors in order to lessen the burden on ourselves to explore deeper and, perhaps, more uncomfortable factors. To that end, the articles and comments that have been contributed here regarding French culture etc have been a good thing to read. My thanks to those who have brought our attention to them.
I have a question. Are US or France foreign policies responsible for the bad weather in Lebanon?
Agreed Pedinska, well said. A deep disservice. Run towards holism, not away from it.
It seems to be a popular notion that symbolic violence is “newsworthy” of its own accord, but that assumes news isn’t also telling a story, or that it can somehow avoid telling a story. The “view from nowhere” argument. But that’s not how journalism works. What Glenn did with this piece is center the publication of the cartoons in their oppressive structures. He didn’t let the story off the hook. He made it about “us”. When publishers say they’re afraid to publish, it isn’t just physical safety they’re afraid of (which is hardly rational in the first place, these attacks are extremely rare), they’re just as if not more afraid of meeting the context of their delivery.
I think a good litmus test for whether a cartoon is simply hate speech is whether it’s making fun of a person or an idea. That’s is why Glenn’s example of comparing blasphemous cartoons about blacks to those about Islam is a bad one (I know Glenn is on team pro-Islam and so starts there and constructs his arguments with that bias, but it shouldn’t be that hard of a distinction to make, esp for someone who lampoons others for being simple-minded). Being black is not an idea that has real influence in the world, whereas Islam is. If a cartoon denigrated a Muslim independent of any idea about Islam, it would be simply hate. I remember one cartoon in Hebdo that showed an Orthodox Jew and a comment about how you can shave their brains but not the sides of their faces, making fun of whatever stupid rule they have that results in those funny curly sideburns. (Hebdo of course made fun of all religions. I don’t know why Glenn would say they didn’t, aside from his biases causing him to look directly past obvious facts.) It’s making fun of how their religion’s stupid rules influence their behavior and deserves to be mocked, whereas a cartoon of a pickaninny eating a watermelon is simply denigrating a person.
Glenn,
This analogy you are trying to draw doesn’t work because Jews are an ethnicity and Islam is a belief system. Ridiculing and offending an ethnicity is racist but ridiculing and offending a belief system is appropriate in a free society.
Showing solidarity for free speech is different than showing solidarity for people executed for demonstrating their free speech.
who’re we kidding, this particular group shouldn’t have the right to speak about anything until they pay back humanity for the crimes and genocide they’ve committed.
nobody’s fooled, it’s premeditated genocide originating from their intel.
farsnews
Paris Shooting: Premeditated Repression http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13931020001601
All these people that are marching through france, all the media coverage pretending it’s about free speech, that’s not what your efforts are being used for. The end result of your “free speech” efforts are stolen and being used by governance and intel to commit genocide.
‘Je ne suis pas Charlie’
Great article, Glenn.
Re: “[C]ases where Muslims were imprisoned for many years in the U.S. for things like translating and posting “extremist” videos to the internet,” etc. Let’s set aside the obvious fact that these victims of free speech suppression had the benefit of lawyers, juries and some measure of due process. All the cases you mention were done in name of protecting the country and its people from violent attack. You can say that these efforts were misguided & counterproductive; that they weren’t worth the tradeoff in the loss of civil liberties; that the invocation of “National Security” hid hateful and racist ulterior motives. And all these points can be debated with some level of coherence and with some appeal to evidence that exists in the real world. And that’s because the concept of providing for the common defense is “real” thing. “Blasphemy”, a supposed affront or insult to an imaginary being (e.g. “God”) or a set of false ideas (e.g. Christianity, Islam), is not a real thing. It’s a made-up thing; there’s no possibility of debate or evidence.
Charlie Hebdo have, in fact, taken aim at Jews and Israel, at least in the not-too-distant past (whatever about that recent firing). This collection of their cartoons that poked “offensive” fun at Jews was first published by the French Jewish online magazine JewPop when in support of Charlie Hebdo after its editing office was burned down back in 2011: http://www.jewpop.com/religion-et-politique/nous-sommes-tous-des-charlie-hebd/
(Auto-translated to English:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewpop.com%2Freligion-et-politique%2Fnous-sommes-tous-des-charlie-hebd%2F&edit-text= )
They’ve republished it on their homepage in the wake of this most recent atrocity.
When you lose Walter Cronkite, you lose Middle America.
When you lose Mona, you lose the world, Glenn.
So please, publish all the cartoons that are offensive to nearly all Muslims, and not just to the cancerous tumors within Islam.
I, for one, respect this “Western” sacred tradition of free speech. I put the word Western within quotes to suggest that there’s a little known “Muslim” tradition of speaking the Truth no matter what — a tradition that seems to be universal.
I’m being very serious and sincere.
There are little known historical accounts of some/many Muslims responding with patience and non-violence to their persecutions. Your publication of these cartoons will be a huge opportunity for us to turn inward and act with patience and connect with the Divine Attributes of Forgiveness, Love and Mercy, which trump other Divine Attributes.
[My Mercy encompasses everything. – a sacred tradition in which God speaks in the first person.]
The human self needs these opportunities to grow towards enlightenment.
You have accumulated a lot of capital with the Muslims — many of them have taken a 180-degree turn on their traditional views on gays and lesbians because of you.
So, it’s time for you to use that capital.
===========
On another note, does Robert Fisk have a point? The problem with going back into the past to understand something is that how far back does one go, and where does one draw the line?
“Charlie Hebdo: Paris attack brothers’ campaign of terror can be traced back to Algeria in 1954 — Algeria is the post-colonial wound that still bleeds in France”, at http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-paris-attack-brothers-campaign-of-terror-can-be-traced-back-to-algeria-in-1954-9969184.html
CORRECTION/CLARIFICATION:
I stated: There are little known historical accounts of some/many Muslims responding with patience and non-violence to their persecutions. Your publication of these cartoons will be a huge opportunity for us to turn inward and act with patience and connect with the Divine Attributes of Forgiveness, Love and Mercy, which trump other Divine Attributes.
I should have stated this: There are little known historical accounts of some/many Muslims responding with patience and non-violence to their mocking, ridicules, satires, and even persecutions. Your publication of these cartoons will be a huge opportunity for us to turn inward and act with patience and connect with the Divine Attributes of Forgiveness, Love and Mercy, which trump other Divine Attributes.
The original statement of mine gives the impression that I consider the publication of these cartoons as a form of oppression. It is not. It’s just mocking and satirical, which we can easily ignore and not get rattled.
Thank you Sufi. The post you link to and, in particular, this small bit of it,
are exactly what I was trying to get at in my comment about Juan Cole’s article.
I read your comments; I had already read that Cole’s article.
My difficulty is that how far back in history should one go to understand current events?
I’ve read books on the Israeli/Palestinan issue that go back to the time of Moses, to explain what’s happening now.
In case of the conflicts that have occurred, and are occurring, between the Muslims and the Christians, we can go back to the times of Muhammad (S).
The current situation in the Muslim world goes back hundreds of years.
After the evil acts of 911, there were those who said that history began the morning of that tragic day — they were not interested in even thinking about prior events, let alone discussing it.
Perhaps, the solution is to act through the higher consciousness in the now, while deriving constructive conclusions from the past.
My difficulty is that how far back in history should one go to understand current events?
I don’t know the answer to that question but I do know that, at the very least, a cursory knowledge of even recent history – and by that I mean (at minimum) the past 100 years or so – would supply some perspective regarding the circumstances that lend to the desperation and rootlessness which often seems to be a base for violence to build on. Of course, one would also need a modicum of empathy, and that often seems in short supply these days. :-s
“The problem with going back into the past to understand something is that how far back does one go, and where does one draw the line?”
I wanted to go really far back, so I found this… ;)
ISLAM ON DINOSAURS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ks9RL9w-Jo
How many people have interpreted ‘Day’ to mean this many days? (Percentage wise I mean, of all muslims) as I expect you are either in one camp or the other (or possibly undecided)… Very interesting though, had never heard this before…
#JePenseDondqueJeSuis
*#JePenseDonqueJeSuis
I’m not aware of any classical Muslim scholars who interpreted that word used in the Quran to mean the 24-hour days. The Quran also states that a ‘day’ in God’s calculations is much longer than our 24-hour day.
50,000 day or ‘period’ interpretation though, or what ever the number is and the age after the multiplication that fits or allows for the age ‘science’ has put on how old the earth is etc…
Are there creationists and non creationists within the muslim faith and if so how do the numbers split, does it cross over to both shia, sunni etc.
I am by the way assuming that you watched the video link which would perhaps allow you to know what I’m on about…
Most Muslims, whether they be Sunnis or Shias, reject the notion that human beings biologically and consciously evolved from apes.
But, below is something a Sufi teacher of mine has written in one of his recent books, “The Story of Creation in the Qur’an: A Sufi Interpretation” (http://www.askonline.co.za/ebooks.php#ebooks):
Timeline of Creation – According to present day scientific discoveries
Big Bang
13.7 billion years ago – Emergence of the universal and cosmic background radiation. Numerous thresholds where chemistry and physics both at the nuclear level and at the visible levels take place.
12 billion years ago – Stars and galaxies.
4.6 billion years ago – Solar system emerges.
3.8 billion years ago – Life on earth and increased level of oxygen.
600 million years ago – After millions of years of a sterile period, bacteria appear along tidal pools leading to multi-cellular organisms. Most prominent is the jelly fish which is without basic sensation and motor response.
500 million years ago – First vertebrates with forebrain, mid- and hindbrain appear.
400 million years ago – Sharks and amphibians appear.
300 million years ago – Reptiles and winged insects with traces of social organization appear.
300 million years ago – Pangaea is formed = Supercontinent.
250 million years ago – Mammals and dinosaurs appear.
200 million years ago – First birds (well-developed visual system) appear.
150 million years ago – First flowering plants appear.
100 million years ago – India breaks away from Antarctica.
60 million years ago – North America splits from Europe. Atlantic Ocean is born.
45 million years ago – India collides with Eurasia and Himalayas rise from the ocean.
25 million years ago – Grass and herbivores appear.
20 million years ago – Apes and Monkeys separate.
7 million years ago – Hominids and early bi-pedals appear, then Homo Habilis, Homo Erectus and others, such as Neanderthals.
7 million years ago – Chimpanzee and Hominids separate. Improved tools and empathy.
2 million years ago – Homo Habilis with double brain size appears.
500,000 years ago – Complex tools and increased brain size develop.
150,000 years ago – Homo Sapiens appear, with agricultural instruments, innovations in speech, skills and teaching (the earliest skeletal remains of modern humans are dated 160,000 years ago, or earlier, with a brain capacity three times that of early Hominids).
120,000 years ago – Evidence emerges of burial rituals (afterlife) and recognition of ‘heavenly power’.
70,000 years ago – Migration out of Africa.
10,000 years ago – Agriculture.
6,000 years ago – Writing.
5,000 years ago – Civilizations.
600 years ago – Printing press.
200 years ago – Industrial Revolution.
50 years ago and today – Computers, Laptops and Cyberspace access.
50,000 x 365,000 = 18 Billion 250 million years… You seem not to eloborate or talk about this… Another word that comes up in the video is “literalist” who would only allow for the 6,000 year old ‘creation’… So my question again is: how many Muslims beleive the word Day should be interpreted as 50,000 24hour days and if the word translates to period how did they arrive at this number of 50,000?
Thankyou for your responses by the way..
“So my question again is: how many Muslims beleive the word Day should be interpreted as 50,000 24hour days and if the word translates to period how did they arrive at this number of 50,000?”
—–
I’ve never heard of a Muslim taking the number 50,000 literally. I believe it’s mentioned in the Quran. But it’s interpreted to mean a ‘great number”, as we tell someone that we’ve told them a thousand times to do something, which is not taken literally.
‘I’ve never heard of a Muslim taking the number 50,000 literally”…
Well this is an example of taking the number literally by one of the panel in the short link I provided (a Muslim).. And was given as an answer to a question (generally: Islam on dinosoars) that allowed plenty of time for the creation/existance of Dinosoars before man using 50,000 as an equation for a ‘day’.. Also all the way back to the big bang as 14 billion years ‘fits’ in the now 18billion 250 million years available.
The book you linked to would no doubt explain the sufi position and I assume that dinosoars/big bang etc are mentioned. I will quiz a friend of mine about it anyway and look it up again when I get a chance.
50,000 is mentioned in chapter 70 verse 4 of the Quran.
You may read what this commentary has to say on that verse:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/private/cmje/religious_text/The_Message_of_The_Quran__by_Muhammad_Asad.pdf
Here’s the footnote on this verse:
The very concept of “time” is meaningless in relation to God, who is timeless and infinite: cf. note 63 on the last sentence of 22:47 – “in thy Sustainer’s sight a day is like a thousand years of your reckoning”: in other words, a day, or an aeon, or a thousand years, or fifty thousand years are alike to Him, having an apparent reality only within the created world and none with the Creator. And since in the hereafter time will cease to have a meaning for man as well, it is irrelevant to ask as to “when” the evildoers will be chastised and the righteous given their due.
Thanks for the well thought out article
Excellent commentary, Glenn … one of your very best.
It may be reasonable also to re-quote Voltaire: “To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”
Except that Voltaire didn’t say that. Kevin Alfred Strom said something very close to it, though.
Whatever it’s origin, the truth of this observation is abunduntly self-evident. Apologies for the misattribution.
By that standard, I guess the Charlie Hebdo writers worked for the Prophet Mohammed.
Dear Mr Greenwald,
There is no comparison between the right not to be murdered for publishing ideas that are disagreeable and the right to be invited and employed after publishing ideas that are disagreeable. The former is obvious, while the latter is actually the opposite of ‘freedom of association.’ If the conference organizers don’t like Chris Hedges views why ought they invite him to speak?
Please take a step back and think about what you’re writing.
“it’s a durable myth, especially among American cartoonists, that France is the place where comics are given the respect they rarely get on this side of the Atlantic. While the French comics industry is not without many of the same problems that have beset book publishing around the world, there is some truth to the idea that comics are more central to public life there than they are here; it’s notable that Wolinski was the recipient of the Legion of Honor, and he is not the only cartoonist to have received his country’s highest recognition. France integrated comics into the mainstream publishing industry much earlier than did the United States. Here, the distinction between comic strips and comic books was sharply drawn for most of the twentieth century, and comic books were widely regarded as a disposable form of culture for children. Comics in France—and Belgium—developed differently. Since the most popular newspaper comics—like Hergé’s Tintin—were collected as hardcover children’s books as early as 1930, the medium was viewed as more reputable because it existed as a part of the regular book trade. In France, cartoonists can be genuine cultural celebrites. Cabu, for example, appeared regularly on television chat shows where he drew cartoons while discussing the issues of the day.”
~Bart beaty
from: What It Means to Be a Cartoonist in France
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/07/the_french_cartoonists_killed_at_charlie_hebdo_wolinski_charb_tignous_and.html
Having lived in France for around a year I certainly noticed that comic art was highly regarded. Also book stores did give huge areas for comic books, much more so than here in the UK for example (in my experience).. They are of course french language and at the same time quite particular to France having their own cultural signitures etc. So unless french speaking, English and American people are of course under exposed to french cartoons even if they have read a bit of TinTin translated in to english.. I’d even go as far to say that some French humour is difficult for the english to understand as of the common accusation/joke that the Germans’ sense of humour is lacking (something I also know to be untrue in the main but that has it’s roots, apart from the obvious WW2 propoganda etc, in specifyng a difference in humour to ‘our’ own)
Had faulty towers been in full swing today maybe aswell as germans visiting the hotel with John Cleese’s “don’t mention the war” we might have seen a sketch with Muslims visiting and instead we’d have “Don’t mention the prophet” …
Adversarial Satire? Very satirical and very French.
“Always Look on the Bright Side of Life” Monty Python’s Life of Brian
C’est la vie c’est la guerre
Je pense donque Je suis
WG
gerald scarfe, anti-semitism and the danish cartoons
“The Board of Deputies of British Jews, which has complained to the Press Complaints Commission, denounced the cartoon as ‘shockingly reminiscent of the blood libel imagery more usually found in parts of the virulently anti-semitic Arab press’.”
https://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/gerald-scarfe-anti-semitism-and-the-danish-cartoons/
Here a distinction of free speach on a particular day being more abhorent..
Perhaps free speach should be practiced most of the time but as a compromsie not on important days in the ‘victims’ calendar.
Cogitant less and less, alas !…
‘Comic books’, which is a US label, doesn’t even begin to describe the genre. It is a form of literature in itself : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Cit%C3%A9s_obscures
On a side note, isn’t it kind of ironic we are talking about free speech and yet comments get moderated?
The reaction is correct but I would say it isn’t principled, as you have pointed in the article. That being said, it is weird how much press coverage an attack by those claiming to be muslim receive and how much press coverage for example the Pennsylvania shootings got for example. Also we don’t see these same media houses shouting these slogans when the Israelis bomb Hamas’ media wing or Hezbollah’s media wing. We didn’t see any media reactions when Al Jazeera was bombed by the US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan nor when the state media of Yugoslavia was bombed 20 years ago. Apparently these are just “propaganda bullhorns” as John Kerry described RT. Not to mention the media board in the UK want to charge RT with unfair depiction of news(ignoring the BBC completely). Europe and freedom of speech should not even be in one sentence. Murder should be condemned no matter who does it and who the victim is.
Brilliant. Excellent thesis/synthesis and arguments. Elevates the discourse much higher than anyone around.
IN SOLIDARITY WITH JIHADISTS: GLENN GREENWALD
Just curious.
Who’s a Jihadist in your understanding?
Were those who fought against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan Jihadists?
Are those Sufis who carry out Mujahida (a derivative of the word, Jihad) to groom their inner self with prayers, fasting and unconditional charitable service to their fellow human beings, Jihadists?
A “Jihadists” to most who use that term, is whoever Fox News decides is a Jihadist.
Jihadists are those who fight to establish Sharia law or generally fight in the name of Islam. That definitely includes the Afghan mujaheddin.
I’m NOT referring to grooming the inner self.
But, those who fought against the Soviets in Afghanistan are not referred to as Jihadists in the Western media or by the Western writers and politicians; though they were called terrorists by the Soviets, as a Russian colleague of mine once told me.
What you are saying is that, as far as you are concerned, those fighters were in fact Jihadists. And since, in the West, a Jihadist is considered a terrorist, those who fought against the Soviets in Afghanistan were in fact terrorists, right?
Are you aware of this by an eminent scholar?
http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/vol-9-no-1/spiritual-significance-jihad-seyyed-hossein-nasr/spiritual-significance-jihad
What is Sharia law to you anyway?
If a Muslim follows the Shariah in their daily prayers, fasting, doing charitable work, courteously dealing with others, etc., is he or she doing something objectionable?
In any case, you might benefit from “Reasoning with God” by Dr. Khalid Abou El Fadl.
USAID spent $50 million on a “jihad literacy” project in Afghanistan between 1986 and 1992. It was considered the lesser evil compared to the Soviet Union. Fighting against armed forces is not terrorism. I don’t know if they targeted civilians.
Shariah law is the legal system based on Islam.
“If a Muslim follows the Shariah in their daily prayers, fasting, doing charitable work, courteously dealing with others, etc., is he or she doing something objectionable?”
Only if the prayers demonize non-Muslims and the charitable work aids Jihadists.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jan/09/joe-sacco-on-satire-a-response-to-the-attacks
Mr. Greenwald
Just like the Boston bombing, the smoke hasn’t even cleared from the deadly terrorist attack in Paris – and you are politicizing the murderous attack on western values and especially free speech. Regardless of the situation, you have relentlessly pursued the Muslim “victimization” campaign. The day after the Boston bombing, you accused Americans of jumping to racist-driven conclusions when Islamic radicals were suspected.
“……The rush, one might say the eagerness, to conclude that the attackers were Muslim was palpable and unseemly……”
On the other hand, if the perpetrators are Muslims, you parrot your typical fallback position – just about every article:
“….spending decades bombing, invading, occupying, droning, interfering in, imposing tyranny on, and creating lawless prisons in other countries generates intense anti-American and anti-western rage (for obvious reasons) and ensures that those western nations will be attacked as well…..”
Westerners are racist if the terrorist are not Islamic (for shamelessly believing the perpetrators are Islamic) and racist if the terrorists murder in the name of Islam because of western, racist-driven violence directed at Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Muslims are the victims either way.
Earlier this week, you argued that Muslims are unfairly victimized on the issue of free speech. After a terrorist attack in the name of Islam yesterday (clearly designed by a higher being – timed – to make you look foolish), you again turn Muslims into victims:
“……it is simply not the case that Charlie Hebdo “were equal opportunity offenders.” Like Bill Maher, Sam Harris and other anti-Islam obsessives, mocking Judaism, Jews and/or Israel is something they will rarely (if ever) do. If forced, they can point to rare and isolated cases where they uttered some criticism of Judaism or Jews, but the vast bulk of their attacks are reserved for Islam and Muslims, not Judaism and Jews. Parody, free speech and secular atheism are the pretexts; anti-Muslim messaging is the primary goal and the outcome…..”
Jews were victims in the Paris attacks, Mr. Greenwald! Indeed, it’s not like Islamic extremists haven’t earned their place in satire and political commentary. World-wide, terrorists murder innocent people – mostly Muslims – in the name of Islam. In some cases, children are targeted like the Beslan massacre in Russia or the recent bloodthirsty assault on a children’s school in Pakistan. Malala was targeted for assassination after collaborating with the enemy about…….girls education. Boko Haram kidnaps little girls to serve as comfort “women” for their fighters. The ISIS attempted to wipe out the Yazidis in Iraq and Shia Muslims are routinely targeted for murder (many times in their places of worship). Thousands of innocent people – mostly Muslims – are targeted and murdered each year. Ethnic, racial and religious bigotry flourish in the greater Middle East. Sunni Muslims are the leading perpetrators of terrorism in the world and Muslims are also the biggest recipients of Islamic terrorism. No one can reasonably deny that.
Islamic extremism is a world movement – and the primary motive is about gaining power (not revenge). Islamic terrorists (no matter where they operate) are anti-democratic, anti-western, anti-globalization and anti-human rights. Islamists seek power to subjugate mostly Muslims – under sharia law – in the name of Islam. To attempt to disassociate “Islam” from this war is not possible. The war is also within Islam. The legitimate and powerful movement by Arabs to participate in their government (i.e., Arab Spring) has been hijacked by Islamic extremists.
In addition, Muslims in Europe (principally) are being radicalized. Thousands of anti-democratic, anti-western Muslims have traveled from Europe to the Middle East to join the murderous ISIS terrorist organization. How is that even possible? Many more radicalized Islamists remain in Europe with the potential for future attacks. Of course, peaceful Muslims suffer the consequence along with the (real) victims to the acts of terror. This also explains to a large degree – rightly or wrongly – why Muslims are profiled by police.
“……Violence spurred by Jewish and Christian fanaticism is legion, from abortion doctors being murdered to gay bars being bombed to a 45-year-old brutal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza due in part to the religious belief (common in both the U.S. and Israel) that God decreed they shall own all the land. And that’s all independent of the systematic state violence in the west sustained, at least in part, by religious sectarianism.
First of all, to compare Christian abortion clinic bombers to radical Islamists is like comparing a paper cut to a beheading – absurd. You invite ridicule by using Christian terrorism as an example. Secondly, you are lashing out at Israel (and Jews) in frustration. Israel has nothing what so ever to do with the attack in Paris. However, the attack on the Jewish market in Paris was simply the result of anti-Jewish bigotry nurtured by some Muslims (which might have been imported from their culture or acquired during radicalization). Again, Jews are the victims in this attack.
This article does point out quite nicely the absurd obsession that the extreme left has with Israel. At the very least, there are undertones of blame pointed at Israel – a common theme to explain Muslim violence.
Are not terrorist attacks inherently political, by definition? However, in attempting to paint Glenn with the crime of “politicizing”, you suggest something very interesting: This was not a traditional terrorist attack, it was an act of revenge carried out in the name of the prophet for certain very specific insults by certain very specific individuals. Nor was it an attack, by primary intention, on free speech or western values in general. Nor is the free speech issue primarily related to others refusing to publish these cartoons, cartoons which are obnoxious and unnecessary. No, the attack on free speech comes about when
1.) Others decide not to publish other important facts out of fear that they might incite an attack;
2.) Security states take advantage of the act to further curb freedom of expression and extend surveillance.
The murder of a dozen or so people needs to be treated as the very serious crime that it is. But it does not need to be seen as anything but what the guys responsible for it say it is, except in regards to our over zealous response. Such over the top response is your forte. No, Craig, Glenn has not unfairly attacked Israel in pointing out the asymmetry regarding Israel and the Muslim world. That is all in your head.
“……The murder of a dozen or so people needs to be treated as the very serious crime that it is. But it does not need to be seen as anything but what the guys responsible for it say it is, except in regards to our over zealous response…..”
There is plenty to discuss in your response, but the quote above really interest me. You are suggesting that this is a crime – a serious crime to be sure – but a crime like murdering two police officers during a bank robbery. My initial post was meant to dispute that idea. First of all, this was a terrorist act which as you noted was murder of civilians for political gain. That separates it from serial murders, bank robberies, armed robbery and other “crimes”. Like all terrorism, it was meant for reasons of intimidation among other things to prevent the publication of offensive caricatures of the Prophet Muhammed. Cartoons harpooning people of religion can be very offensive. Muslims, Christians and Jews (and others) have every right to be angry – just not violent.
Second of all, the murderers might have trained with al-Qaeda – an internationally recognized terrorist organization with a history of targeting and murdering innocent people including possibly tens of thousands of Muslims in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and other places. Al-Qaeda targeted and murdered 3000 people on 911 and were also responsible for 7/7 and the Madrid bombings among others. That possible affiliation makes this attack far more than just a crime. It makes the attack more than simple revenge. It was a political statement.
Finally, you are in denial over the murderous agenda of groups like al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, ISIS, Hamas and so on. You are in denial over how widespread these groups are and their political goals. You are in denial over the support these groups receive from western Muslims. That’s why the Paris attacks happened. That’s why several thousand western Muslims have traveled to Syria and Iraq. Paris was not a simple crime, but a reflection of the political agenda of Islamists world-wide.
Thanks
Perhaps all that you say about this attack is true, but what I say is based on the facts that we have. We also know how convenient is is for those in power, and those seek power and money, to have an enemy to use as a call to arms. There is always some group that can be used that way, and it helps if they really do have some or all of the desired characteristics! And it is even better when the enemy appears to be a vast array of fire breathing monsters, but really, despite possibly the most evil of intentions, really does not have much power at all. Then you really do not have to fight much of a war, and you have no chance of losing. ISIS is by far the most powerful of these groups, able to actually take and hold territory, fighting a traditional civil war. But where is the threat to the US?
Craig, you are being played, and you have a lot of company. Can millions of people be wrong? You bet.
Fair enough Mike. Thanks.
Equating the acts of these three Muslims with all Muslims is a generalization known as stereotyping… stooping to the level of the terrorists who hold all Jews guilty for the acts of Israelis and all Americans guilty for the acts of our leaders.
It is not an enlightened or defensible position.
Ignoring the context through which the radicalization of these individuals has occurred is little better… particularly given how our tax dollars and government policies contributed to it.
Actually he did not. He specifically stated that Muslims are the main victims of terrorism. That is a fact.
“……Equating the acts of these three Muslims with all Muslims is a generalization known as stereotyping….”
I didn’t, but if you got that impression then I apologize. You might try rereading the post.
I appreciate your response, but my comment was made to another who was not even subtle about it, but somehow my comment ended up under yours.
Not sure how that happened, but I apologize in return.
I can’t even find the post I was responding to in this thread… I think it may have been in the sniper movie review discussion.
Um, Craig, papercuts don’t kill. Violent anti-abortion terrorists do. The FBI has no department dedicated to monitoring inflictors of fucking papercuts.
God, you are an idjit.
I only meant in terms of numbers. Terrorist kill thousands each year – most at the hands of Islamists. How many people have died from abortion clinic bombings?
It all depends on how one defines “terrorism”.
From some perspectives, the dropping of bombs on the civilians that took place in WWII and a few other wars thereafter were acts of terrorism.
The key thing to me is: deliberately harming the non-combatants, including off-duty soldiers, which I’m totally against, including formulating strategies and tactics while knowing in advance that the non-combatants will be harmed.
I use a simple definition: the targeting of civilians for political gain.
“…..From some perspectives, the dropping of bombs on the civilians that took place in WWII and a few other wars thereafter were acts of terrorism……”
Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Dresden, Tokyo were all terrorist acts under that definition. I agree with it. World War II was a massive act of terrorism by all sides – a brutal war where 40-50 MILLION people died.
Thanks sufi
Craig.
I find it sickening you try to minimize the victims of your co-religion terrorists. Tell that to the families of those killed by christian anti abortion terrorists. It is obvious you only care about terrorism as long as you can use it for your anti-Muslim bigotry. Hence your hand waiving dismissive attitude of those murdered by anti abortion christian terrorists. How many must be killed until you give a damn?
@craigsummers,
You wrote this (emphases mine):
Kindly clarify something for me:
You first wrote the word, “Muslims” with two descriptions of them: “anti-democratic”, and “anti-western”.
But in your next sentence, you used the term, “Islamists”.
Was that a slip or did you deliberately try to give the impression that the two terms pretty much refer to the same types of people?
I’d also like to know what you consider to be “Islamism” and what “Islam” is. Also, who is an “Islamist” and who is a “Muslim”? What are their most distinguishing differences?
Can a “Muslim” be against Western policies peacefully, or as soon as a “Muslim” criticizes the West, he or she turns into an “Islamist”?
Are “Muslims” allowed to present an “Islamic” solution and participate in a democratic process peacefully, respecting the constitution and laws of the land, or when a “Muslim” does that, he or she ceases to exist as a “Muslim” and becomes an “Islamist”?
The reason I have taken the time to ask you this is that I have seen other writers do the same as you have done: use the terms “Islamists/Islamism” and “Muslims/Islam” interchangeably, to describe pretty much the same thing/people.
I have also seen many demonstrate against “Islam” and not something called “Islamism”. The recent demonstrations in Germany were clearly against “Islam” and “Muslims”, and not against “Islamism” and “Islamists”.
Just for the record, I do not believe that those Muslims who participate in the political process of wherever they live, even peacefully, and present “Islamic” solutions, have got their messages/interpretations, and priorities, right.
A lot of the times, many of these Muslims “use” Islam as a political weapon, which is hugely problematic to me.
Hi Sufi
I was traveling today and used my I-phone to answer Mona, but I needed more time to answer your post. I really don’t want to get too hung up on terminology, but “Muslim” covers all the different sects in Islam and means anyone that “follows the religion of Islam” – Sunni, Shia, Sufism etc. It doesn’t matter if they are a fundamentalist, terrorist or support gay rights. Islamists (the way I have used the term) simply means a more fundamentalist Muslim. They certainly could be terrorists, but obviously, most are not. They probably(?) support the imposition of sharia law. The politically active Muslim Brotherhood and many of their supporters might fall under this classification.
All Muslims – Islamists or not – have a perfect right to become politically involved and lobby for causes important to their beliefs – non violently (of course).
Thanks.
France could use a huge injection of American free speech values. A rapper there today appears in court:
His error was that his lyrics were not: “Jesus is a bitch, don’t forget to fuck him till he’s exhausted.” That’d be very French, and very fine.
That’s a typically French attitude indeed : they make laws about everything. Their jacobinical tradition requires it. That’s why what happened is very very worrisome…
As for rap, things don’t seem to be that black (in France) and white (in the US), as you’ll see in this short documentary from ReasonTV : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi7xi_SnEDQ
Very good/apt short Doc!
Well done. Exactly what we need in this “debate” over “free speech”. To all of you who support the #JeSuisCharlie business, but somehow have a problem with this (a of of which is actually accurate), I wrote something for you: http://brazenlee.blogspot.ca/2015/01/je-ne-suis-pas-charlie.html
There is a serious error in the headline to this article. It promises “more blasphemous cartoons.” Where are they? All I see are a bunch of cartoons promoting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories or portraying Israel as demonic. What does any of that have to do with blasphemy? Those aren’t cartoons against Judaism, they’re racist cartoons against Jews.
As for Charlie Hebdo, Greenwald’s claim that they publish racist cartoons against Muslims is simply wrong. They publish blasphemous cartoons that mock religious fundamentalism, violence, and prudery. One issue’s cover showed Muhammed, exasperated by fundamentalists, saying, “It’s tough to be loved by idiots.” Such a cartoon may be blasphemous to fundamentalists who consider any depiction of Muhammed a capital offense, but the intent is clearly to defend Muhammed from people who do idiotic things in his name (like killing cartoonists because they can’t take a joke).
Greenwald was offended by the picture of a bare-assed Muhammed and called it “degrading.” I recommend he keep his delicate eyes away from Charlie Hebdo because there are bare asses all over the place. One cover showed a bare-assed President Sarkozy. Another showed a bare-assed Jesus.
And by the way. The bare-assed Jesus was sodomizing God the Father, right there on the cover of the magazine. That should rate higher on the offensiveness meter than the rather tame picture of a bare-assed Muhammed. So no, it’s not true that Charlie Hebdo unfairly singles out Islam for mockery. Glenn Greenwald just doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
I respectfully suggest that The Intercept pull this piece. It’s misinformed and wrongheaded from beginning to end, and on top of that, it is an insult to the memory of the courageous leftwing journalists who just gave their lives standing up for freedom of speech. Is it really necessary to spit on their graves in this way?
A great article Glenn. Sanity AND intelligence AND courage is so rare. Keep explaining. We’ll get there eventually.
i’ve never heard anyone call for the republication of the anti-semitic cartoons from der sturmer, even though its editor, julius streicher, was killed (after trial and conviction at nuremburg) for publishing it.
Glenn, you want to truly demonstrate your commitment to free speech, post a cartoon of yourself sucking off Mohammed or Nihad Awad.
I see your feeling the need to jerkoff….jerkoff.
The raving anti-semite using tragedy as an excuse to post anti-semitic cartoons, what a shocker. Luckily for you, you’ll get to keep your head for it. You see despite your lunatic conspiracy theories, Jews allow freedom of speech and expression. They might get offended and fight you on it, which is fair enough, but they’re not going to march into your office and kill you. Muslims will do that. Islam, along with all other religions, is a mental illness of varying degrees. You don’t want to tolerate Jewish atrocities, fine, but don’t put your head in the sand like a coward when Islam shows its ugly true face. As it stands, you are a coward. A self righteous, self loathing coward who would assume bend over and let that kooky religion penetrate your ass than fight for an actual progressive society.The professional victims of Islam don’t need any help feeling sorry for themselves, they do it plenty fine on their own. Instead of enabling them, encourage them to pick up a science book, or-you know, stop murdering people who disagree with you. I don’t find the cartoons Charlie Hebdo did to be tasteful or nice, but I applaud their right to do it without being killed. I also applaud your right to defend Islam to the end of the earth because you feel overpaid and over entitled and somehow it makes you feel better. You are an anti-semite though, it seethes through your teeth, but even that is okay until the day you decide to hold up a Kosher supermarket. Then rational people get to kill you in self defense and I applaud that too.
So I clicked on this just to see whether Greenwald would show courage, demonstrate his point about disseminating ideas he condemns, and earn some respect by mocking Islam and Mohammed, OR whether he’d just do what he always does by demonizing Jews, Israel, and America. No surprise there.
This fails to demonstrate that Greenwald is willing to disseminate cartoons that HE finds offensive, because he’s a self-hating Jew who’s not offended by anti-semitic cartoons, he’s offended by anti-Muslim cartoons.
You may recall that Iran responded to the Danish cartoons by holding an exhibit of anti-semitic cartoons, so Greenwald did the same thing, and Jihadists applaud this. It rewards terrorism, whereas disseminating anti-Mohammed cartoons shows that terrorism is futile. But mocking Mohammed may actually be dangerous, and worse, it may upset Greenwald’s buddies at CAIR, which paid him thousands of dollars for speaking at its fundraising banquets.
Erm, in your fit of conniption, you failed to realize that Glenn did, indeed, publish one of the blasphemous Mohammed cartoons.
Oooh, one, in the context of explaining how offensive Charlie Hebdo cartoons were.
Yes, one of the cartoons that excites a small sector of violent Muslims to kill the publisher — Glenn published one of those. Yessirree, he sure did. Notwithstanding that your original comment claims he failed to that, he absolutely did.
You are right. No one should be allowed to offend others, until they have first demonstrated they are willing to offend themselves to at least the same extent. This implies some degree of responsibility, unlike the reckless concept of free speech – which is based on the fanciful notion that words and images have no consequences.
The difficult part about the concept of ‘responsible speech’ is, as you suggest, first proving to everyone that you have sufficiently offended yourself. If you are self-hating, then self-abuse may in fact be a form of narcissism. So it’s probably best to place the decision in the hands of a neutral third party arbiter – a censor, in other words. The censor would evaluate your attempts to offend yourself, and then rule on whether you had earned the right to offend others.
“self-hating Jew”
If GG were to write or speak publicly about his Jewish heritage and how he feels about it (which, to my knowledge, he has not done), I would be interested in his words. Unless and until he does so, your armchair diagnosis is a reflexive and witless epithet that says more about you than him.
He sort of has. While speaking in a DC synagogue last year, he admitted that he’d never been bar mitzvahed. Do note, however, that I underwent the Roman Catholic equivalent, i.e., Confirmation. Most would say, tho, that I am an inadequate soldier of Christ. (These things don’t always take.)
Mona– did you listen to Serial.? Did you like it?
I’d be interested if he, GG, is offended by the anti-semitic cartoons by his fellow Brazilian Communist Carlos Latuff, or if he’s reposting cartoons that he agrees with.
I can answer that. He agrees with them. But he doesn’t consider them anti-semitic (nor do I, and I am notoriously sensitive to such things).
I agree the Latuff cartoons — some of which are brilliant — are not anti semitic. One, however, offends me on a different level, to wit: the one showing the world laughing at Mohammed cartoons, and in the next panel the world appearing horrified at Holocaust cartoons.
Blasphemy is a time-honored butt of Western satire. Giggling over genocide, not so much. Nor should it be a joking matter. In other words, Latuff’s “indictment” of this false “double standard” fails.
Did this idiot land up on this site by mistake …it appears he hasn’t been anywhere on the web besides right wing hate sites…
Three points:
I doubt that those professing “Je Suis Charlie” understand what they are saying. The phrase “I am . . .” includes the idea that one is willing to stand in the place of the person or, in this case, the magazine. Do these people really want to stand, even symbolically, in front of a Kalashnikov to defend the vile and bigoted, anti-Muslim dreck that Charlie Hebdo published? Identification with the speakers whose rights we defend is unnecessary. In this case, such identification will just lead to more hate. Nazis can march in boots and armbands as much as they please under our laws, but “I am a Nazi”, not.
Glenn understands more than most how often and deep we fail when defending the ideals of “free speech.” He has reminded us many times that those who want to limit our access to information in a free society say that they really believe in free speech. They repeat they are not censors over and over again. Glenn makes the point over and over again that they are censors. That is the kind of tenacity we all need to practice.
One of the things about the Internet is that we no longer need rely on any one source for information. It is an instant click to anywhere world and if you want to find the vilest or the most profound you can in the same surfing session. Does it matter anymore who publishes what? We are seeing the spiraling down of influence possessed by any single news or opinion outlet. Don’t be surprised that in another generation, or two, today’s valuable news brands are all but extinguished by dilution of an audience that no longer needs to be tethered to a single source.
So now if someone kills Greenwald, it’s at least partially his fault for publishing “offensive” material, right?
Let’s see, so the racist Jew hater Greenwald writes an article saying that media is afraid to publish anti-Jewish racism by showing a very small portion of the massive amount of anti-Jewish racism that is published, with impunity, every day. OK… He might as well have written an article saying, Hey,ya know, I really have no idea what I am talking about and read this article so I can prove it to you.
And Greenwald did not even touch on the most pervasive anti-Jewish racism ubiquitous all over the world.
1. Calling Jews, who are the indigenous people of Israel and have a right of self determination in their indigenous lands, lands where they have been for over 3000 years, calling them the racist term “settlers.”
2. Calling the indigenous lands of the Jews in Israel, Judea and Samaria, the anti-Jewish racist term “west bank”
3. The Nobel Prize committee giving the Nobel Peace Prize to the racist pedophile and murderer of Jewish children Yasir Arafat
4. Having the one international body focused upon as the arbiter of international human rights, the United Nations, daily engaged is overt, unambiguous, violence supporting anti-Jewish racism and having that racist anti-Jewish organization get more international funding than any other international organization.
5. The United States government, showing it anti-Jewish racism, by making Israel, the only nation in the world where the US will not put its embassy in the capital of the country.
6. The New York Times, the most widely read and widely quoted news org in the US, daily engaging in overt anti-Jewish racism in its coverage of the indigenous people if Israel, the Jews.
I could go on, but Greenwald clearly is not someone who believes facts are important in journalism, he, it can only be inferred, believes that racist opinions and supporting the murder of Jewish children as much more important than facts.
People who claim ‘it’s not ALL religion, Christianity [right-wing, etc…] doesn’t condone chopping someone’s head off for, say, denouncing God! Maybe in the 1600’s, but not now!’ are clueless!
They (including apologists) forget to mention they support (by actions or otherwise): environmental misinformation, pro-life (besides, of course, capital punishment or during war, which is always), unequal pay (& treatment – sexually and racially), torture and human experimentation (as long as it’s done in the name of MY God or government), anti-gay [LGBTQ] groups and legislation & etc…, science denial, THEIR religion woven into government, a very skewed vision of American history taught to children, education cuts (esp arts & sciences), bigotry and racism (not all), Christian preachers, televangelists, missionaries… saying – ‘wearing condoms and masterbating is sinful’ (this is particularly horrific in Africa, riddled with HIV due to the aforementioned), voter suppression laws, ridiculous criminal justice system, private healthcare, subsidizing corporations and people who don’t deserve or need it, male dominance (women, know your place!), trickle-down economics, blowing up clinics and killing doctors (in God’s name), never apologizing as the US has done nothing wrong, people are in poverty because they want to be, we live in a post-racial society – everything is equal now… and on and on…
The Right-wing in the U.S. has (& still does) cost us trillions of dollars, killed a great many people, and have caused harm in innumerable ways.
Religion, regardless which, is the poison! (Jainism and a few other non-violent religions may be the exception).
Let me comment that Israelis and other Jews do not generally go around killing people who publish racist and unacceptable cartoons against them, like some of the ones you show above. It’s not alright to kill people over this sort of thing. It is alright to boycott them, or demand an apology.
Secondly, I consider Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons on the prophet Mohamed to be needlessly offensive and provocative. I guess democratic countries can forbid such things through blasphemy laws, as long as the laws are clear and enforced by an independent judiciary (of course free debate about Islam should not be forbidden).
At the same time, it’s impossible not to rise up in solidarity when some fanatic idiots go and exterminate the magazine’s staff in retaliation. We can discuss freedom of speech and blasphemy, but a line has been crossed here. Jews never crossed the line, and in recent times Christians haven’t either, so the outrage over Islam is not out of place.
Marc Cooper, who teaches at the USC Annenberg School of Communication & Journalism (and who I believe is father to The Intercept’s Natasha Vargas Cooper), is publicly calling the NYT’s Dean baquet a coward, and the two are spatting. On Facebook, Cooper asked:
Baquet didn’t sit silent, and Gawker has the details: http://gawker.com/top-new-york-times-editor-puts-asshole-critic-on-blas-1678625665
Thanks for the Gawker link. Since I don’t “do” Facebook, I’d been missing Marc’s voice since he abandoned his blog. He was (or still is?) part of the energy behind Annenberg’s student run site Neon Tommy*.
*http://www.neontommy.com/
I disagree with the following premise in Mr. Greenwald’s piece: “this week’s defense of free speech rights was so spirited that it gave rise to a brand new principle: to defend free speech, one not only defends the right to disseminate the speech, but embraces the content of the speech itself.”
At this point, massively publishing the cartoons is not approving their content, it is showing that extremists and terrorists don’t get to control what gets printed, no matter how offensive, in a society with free speech and a free press. I think it’s an important point to make, especially for a journalist.
I think Mr. Greenwald misses the point completely, perhaps because he can’t help trying to use this tragedy to further his own agenda (some of which I don’t necessarily disagree with, by the way).
That’s all well and good. But you can’t judge them unless you see them and newspapers, like the uk guardian this week, who don’t republish them AT ALL under some spurious basis that to do so would be to echo their editorial line, are essentially failing to publish a critical aspect of the news story. Any newspaper can do so without ‘agreeing with the content’ and leave the readers to judge. I also think that publishing them while contextualising them is still an important stance for free speech. I can’t think of any other circumstance where a newspaper wouldn’t publish something newsworthy. The image of the police officer being shot was widely disseminated in the papers in the uk for example. It seems to me that the obvious conclusion is that the papers failed to publish for fear of reprisals and only the uk independent admitted as much, which at least has the virtue of honesty.
“Some of the cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo […] contained a stream of mockery toward Muslims generally, who in France are not remotely powerful but are largely a marginalized and targeted immigrant population.” — GG
Somehow I believe that’s entirely missing the point. The issue revolving around Charlie Hebdo is not so much freedom of speech as it is secularity. Unlike the US, France is a secular republic. To the vast and clueless majority, secularity (laïcité in French) was established after the 1789 revolution in order to completely dissociate religion from public life. The general idea is that religious practice is tolerated on a personal level but outlawed in public places. I repeat: outlawed.
So when muslims (or chistians or jews or buddhists for that matter) show off their religious beliefs in public, it is an offense against the rules of the republic and, as such, against the entire population of the country. The fact that our government, through its ministry of interior (responsible for the control of cults), isn’t reacting strongly against such offenses doesn’t make them less so. And Charlie Hebdo in that respect expresses the feeling of the nation by justly mocking that which has been deemed unacceptable. When institutions fail to protect the rule of law, it is the role of the press to point a finger in the direction of such failure.
Charlie Hebdo didn’t come up with these satires and criticisms on their own, they actually are fully representative of the national feeling regarding faith: it’s a strictly personal affair which should not be visible to others. Period. Until foreign reporters learn a bit about the concept of secularity, they’ll mistakenly believe this affair is about freedom of speech alone. It is not.
MajorGeek: Thank you for reporting (from France?) on your secular culture. Myself, I reject attacks on religious liberty and endorse the right to dress in religious attire in public. To me, it is every person’s right to express themselves in whatever manner they choose in their clothing, and to practice any faith they choose, in public if they wish.
That said, for several days now I have been trying to get folks to understand this aspect of your culture and country; it is not about — or not *just about — picking on a marginalized part of the population. France, and Parisiennes in particular, simply don’t well tolerate religiosity. You are the nation of Voltaire (and that man’s occasional indulgence in antisemitic tropes does not alter his value as a witty iconoclast of religious power and superstition). This matters.
I’m a huge fan of Voltaire and reason, and of satirizing religion as well as of committing blasphemy, both of which have an esteemed place in humanity’s liberation. The secular French pretty much embrace blasphemy as holy! I don’t take it as far as you (one can’t and also be a full-blown civil libertarian), but I appreciate and acknowledge the aggressively secular dimensions of your culture.
I interpret Charlie Hebdo and its cartoons in the context of French culture, and would wish that more of its critics would take that culture into account.
Bull shit. The current separation was established gradually after the revolution, and the major law covering the legal aspects of this is from 1905. The law banning wearing any religious symbols, etc. in public schools is from 2004. I believe that the French government still plays an advisory role in the appointment of bishops, etc. This whole matter is not so black and white as you claim.
I see. Thus the 2004 law was necessary because students were sneaking into school with their religious objects hidden under their coats, and then they revealed them once inside because public schools were the last places in France outside of the home and church, etc., where one could show off such an object without being arrested?
Mike, laïcité was in use in France basically throughout the 19th century and is to some extent a thread of the anti-clericalism that reached full bloom in 1789. A raft of formal legislation did take place in 1905, but it was preceded by attitudes and other laws pertaining to laïcité.
There were not a great many Muslim women in religious garb for most of French history, and it isn’t surprising that legislation specifically including them (but also others) didn’t pass until 2004. But the law has also snagged Sikhs in turbans and Xtians whose crosses are deemed “too large.”
The French constitution explicitly provides for “laïcité”: “La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale.”
That’s the French, and it has been the French for several centuries. It’s their culture.
Yes Mona, I know. But no description of the issue I have found conveys the extreme that MG does. Nor, as far as I can see, does the unfamiliarity of many with this issue justify the use of the phrase “vast and clueless majority”. Also, Glenn did not miss the point entirely or even at all; the issue is largely one of freedom of speech. This attack was specially directed at those wrote drew cartoons depicting the prophet, especially unfavorably. The right to do so is far more an issue of freedom of speech than one of secularity.
As for religious dress, it is rumored that priests are still seen dressed in their traditional garb in France, upon occasion even when engaged in such secular activities as skiing.
Have you spent time in France? Been particularly educated about its history? I have done both. France is the most aggressively secular democracy to exist, or ever to have existed.
And of course the issue is, as you unnecessarily insist, one of freedom of speech. At no point did I claim anything but that. It is also, however, a matter of comprehending French culture when assessing why (as an alternative to racist obsession with Muslims) a French satirical magazine would focus on a kind of lampooning deemed blasphemous by Muslims.
It is what the French do! They’ve been doing it to Xtianity for centuries. It is the air they breathe.
Those interested in some perspective rather than Mona’s one dimensional view could look here:
http://www.bu.edu/cura/files/2013/10/Bowen-article.pdf
Beats me what’s so “one dimensional” about what I’ve written, but in any event — the article you link to is very good. It’s entirely consistent with my formal education on these topics.
“Nor, as far as I can see, does the unfamiliarity of many with this issue justify the use of the phrase “vast and clueless majority”.” — MS
Sorry if I didn’t get that across diplomatically but, hey, unfamiliarity with an issue is the same, in my book, as cluelessness. As to the word “vast”, how many people on this planet know about the foundation of the French republic? Vast seems an appropriate wording to me.
“Also, Glenn did not miss the point entirely or even at all; the issue is largely one of freedom of speech.” — MS
First allow me to state that I have great respect for Glenn and what he does. But as far as I know he focused in this article on freedom of speech while omitting to provide context regarding the way French people perceived those events. He gave an honest view of the way other people, particularly in the US, see this from their perspective. Unfortunately it didn’t reflect the French view. Not a bit, not at all, not even in passing. So I took it upon myself to add that which I felt was missing.
Now if you find my use of English inappropriate or even out of place, you should hear what I have to say in French. What you call extreme, and I agree it may be perceived as such in a society where political correctness is more important than freedom of expression, is considered perfectly normal, and possibly soft-ish, within the French context, which I share for the benefit of those who may not know about French republican values. Remember all those comments directed at the Obama administration for trampling the American constitution? I don’t think they were less extreme or less justified.
In conclusion, I repeat: this is NOT about freedom of speech, which I understand to be extremely important to reporters, but rather about the tenets of the French republic, which happen to be freedom, equality, fraternity, and their logical consequence, secularism. Of course freedom of speech is necessary to talk about all these but it’s definitely NOT center-stage, at least in France.
To Mona: I’m not actually reporting _from_ France, for the simple reason that I decided to leave France due to a disgust caused by this aforementioned rise in privileges and inequalities. I’m definitely French though, born and raised in the shade of those republican values which I uphold and defend whenever possible from exile.
BULL SHIT. Went to school in Paris in the 1980’s. We had a math teacher who refused to take of his kippa. He was fired. We had children who wore crosses. They were confiscated, and their parents were dragged in to speak to the headmaster: what your child to wear religious symbols? There are private Catholic schools for that.
“The current separation was established gradually after the revolution, and the major law covering the legal aspects of this is from 1905.” — Mike Sulzer
Yes, if you wish to get into fine detail, the law in question was passed in 1905. It was the end result of a lengthy process which started with the beheading of priests, the smashing of religious sculptures in cathedrals and churches, and the confiscation of church property. But this is TI, not a classroom, so I admit guilt in trying to make a long story short.
This issue is in fact more complex than appears at first, and you’re quite correct in stating that such matter isn’t black or white. The starting point is to be found in the system of privileges linking nobility, and the person of the king in particular, to the religious establishment. The church made such privileges possible by anointing kings and, in return, kings gave priests more power than they deserved. So quite naturally, when the time came to get rid of nobility, and since the church was siding with them, priests were seen as an integral part of that system and sent to the guillotine.
That was the rationale for splitting matters of religion and state. It still holds strongly today, particularly since the recent resurgence of a new kind of nobility which can be seen in control of state organs (the president himself, since VGE in the 70’s, and various government administrations) and the French banking system: most of the top honchos at BNP, for instance, descend from noble families. I know because I worked there.
The French, in their vast majority, reject wholeheartedly such comeback of casts and privileges. It is therefore natural that contemporary requests for privileges, whether stemming from religious cults or otherwise, be seen in a bad light. The reason has nothing to do with islamophobia, even if such a feeling does exist indeed, but rather with the second word of the republican triptic: equality. How can kids perceive equality if some of their schoolmates benefit from privileges, whether vestimentary or dietary? And onto the third: fraternity. How can such feeling develop if kids are split into religious groups? The sheer idea of making groups which isolate pupils from each other is contrary to the notion of fraternity.
My personal opinion is that many immigrants come to France seeking freedom, which is the first word they can read on public buildings, but fail to notice the following two: equality and fraternity. It seems normal for Jewish boys to wear a kippah or Muslim girls a veil. It shouldn’t be, as it is outlawed, but they still forge ahead, unaware of the fragmenting effect it has on society.
Apologies for taking the long way around but I think it was necessary in order to put things in their context. France is not the US, the UK, or Saudi Arabia. It’s constitution is primarily based on a strong disapproval of privileges, unlike other places, and satirical magazines are here to remind us that our government is at times too lax or tolerant in situations of exception. Freedom of speech is important, undeniably, but only as a means to express shortcomings related to those essential values of liberty, equality, and fraternity. Laïcité, or secularism, is only but a logical consequence of these three and is therefore inseparable from those pillars of the republic.
My intent here is to provide the necessary background to understand the importance of the likes of Charlie Hebdo and their motives in mocking that which is anti-republican. Personally I’ve never been a big fan of the magazine but, as an ardent defender of the republic, I stand 100% behind their actions and many in France feel the same. What happened this week was not merely seen in France as an attack on freedom of speech but more importantly as an attack against republican values.
Many thanks to Mona for explaining this much better than I ever could.
MG, the above gives me gas — LOL. If this were the direct topic here — the prioritization and purpose of free speech — you and I would be going at it hammer and tongs. But since my only purpose at this juncture is to support your attempt to make French culture and attitudes known to the readership, I’ll waltz right by.
You’re right, I’m guilty of making a shortcut. It’s that TI vs. the classroom syndrome striking again. But thanks to you, I might learn sooner than later how to bridge that gap.
So yes, my comment looks very silly at first glance . Now if you look at it with the perspective of the institutions within the republican framework, it is a democratic safeguard against erosion of those essential values. Assuming they are still in place and upheld, citizens and moral persons (business, administrations, etc.) benefit from the broader scope of freedom which necessarily includes freedom of speech.
In other words, freedom of speech must exist when aspects of freedom disappear, thus enabling a debate, whereas its property as a safeguard becomes irrelevant when freedom in general is effectively granted. In the latter (ideal) case, the need for freedom of speech loses of its relative “importance” as a protective tool for the republic. That’s not to say it’s not important for citizen lambda, at his/her personal level, which might be what you were thinking of, in which case I would be in agreement. But as you put it, that’s a different debate, which I would entitle: now that republican institutions are satisfied, what else can be made of freedom of speech at grass-root level and why is it important?
PS: oops forgot. I do count the press as part of those republican institutions, for which freedom of speech is obviously important. Not wishing to start a whole new debate, I still think it worth mentioning that press freedoms are currently threatened (by governments and media corporations, in addition to false muslims) and it should be seen as a worrying symptom that freedoms in general have been eroding lately. One usually goes with the other and eroding press freedoms are a good gauge of trouble (see 1984).
To illustrate my point, I’ll cite two examples where freedom of speech in particular situations is not important and actually undesired.
– The judicial system and police forces, in the case of on-going investigations/actions.
– The military and intelligence services, which are part of the military in France anyway. They have an obligation to keep a low profile (obligation de réserve).
Interestingly, the military (gendarmerie included) and the police have been breaking that rule for a few years now, ever since their efficacy became endangered by budgetary cuts, which apparently lead to a worrying suicide rate of roughly one per week in the combined police/gendarmerie forces.
MG, thanks for taking the time to explain. I will read and think with greater understanding now.
Brilliant piece of writing and how accurate…
Interesting piece. I tend to side with Mona views in re the need to thwart zealots, 24/7/365. Still I totally share Glenn’s distaste for the pretentious baloney that’s being flung around the MSM by safe, pampered cowards like Douthat and Brooks — 2 of the most unctuous nincompoops writing in the English language today.
The prattle of the AQAP propagandists (Scahill article) works beautifully to piss me off, and makes me want to paste Charlie Hebdo cartoons all over the back of my car, and just above the sig on my emails.
But, analyses of our cultural reaction to the massacre are a sideshow. The usual suspects of the Beltway are spinning this incident to support our gross, expansive surveillance state. Clever creatures that they are, they’ll never let a good tragedy go to waste. This attack was a perfect an example of why we in the West should be spending tax dollars on traditional investigative policing to fight terrorism. France dropped the ball on these guys due to lack of manpower not lack of data. It should serve as example of exactly what all is wrong with our current “security” set up. Instead, it’s being used to support further encroachments.
It’s great fun to rattle on about civic virtue & freedom. You might to keep in mind tho: while you’re arguing about the precisely most perfect-est way to define & defend our highest virtues………. there’s a pack of beribboned moneymongers in NoVa who are working this incident for the betterment of their interests.
here’s a fundamental misapprehension about violence in the world
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11332535/We-think-the-Paris-terrorists-were-offended-by-Charlie-Hebdos-satire.-What-if-were-wrong.html
Speech is just a symbol. It could be tall buildings. It could be marathons. Whatever activates your tribal brain. Where’s the material? You call yourselves materialists?
post 9/11 West, it’s more rational for a publisher to say he is afraid of publishing cartoons about Arabs living on our God given petrol, then to principally demand its needlessly provocative and/or cruel to do so. The latter looks weaker in eyes of the “liberal establishment”. Your membership to the Serious Club is on the line. Are you a fucking hippie?
The former is actually better for your career. I think you can be physically afraid and a careerist at the same time. Nothing indicates they’re mutually exclusive in our culture. Fear is a complex.
Recall HBgary’s scouting report of Glenn Greenwald:
In other words, Glenn is a fucking weirdo.
Brilliant analysis:
“One can defend free speech without having to publish, let alone embrace, the offensive ideas being targeted. But if that’s not the case, let’s have equal application of this new principle.”
Thank you. The Charlie cartoons were grossly offensive and islamophobic. The murders of the paper’s journalists and workers were appalling. Both sides were bigoted, if not insane. These tribal hatreds must end. It is as stupid to re-publish these religious attacks as it would be to replicate the murders. Solidarity? I have no solidarity with either.
Thank you. An excellent and heart building reply to a perfectly written, logical article.
Thank you, Justina, for an honest appraisal. As I read through these comments I feel a lot of folks attempt to shield Islamophobia under the guise of championing free speech. It’s insane on all sides.
Uh, your sense of equivalence is mistaken. Obviously. They are cartoons. Lines on paper. They are not bullets killing people. Big difference.
Sad to see from GG an article that is illogical, dishonest and Jew-hating all at once. So bizarre, you apologists for terror, object to injustice and cruelty by supporting it….
Cause and The Streisand Effect
Barbra Streisand sits at her desk speaking on the telephone. Sliding glass silences waves breaking as backdrop.
“I would like to have some people killed.”
i agree with joe. This article makes you seem like an anti-Semite calling for the publication of anti-Semitic cartoons under the guise of a hardcore liberal trying to defend freedom of speech. I consider my self a hardcore liberal but at least I have not lost my moral compass and can judge cartoons based on there intentions within in context.
Thank you so much for your brave reporting yet again!!! You are without any doubt our most trusted and favorite journalist.
These are specious analogies. The analogy of making fun of Mohammed is making fun of Moses or the Talmud, not making fun of the Holocaust. A better parallel to making fun of the Holocaust would be to make fun of, say, the slaughter of 20K Syrians in Hama by Assad in 1982; or of Armenian and Assyrian Christians by the Turks; or of Cambodians by Pol Pot; or maybe the kidnapping of NIgerian school girls.
The fact that you can publish this without fear for your life shows the difference between Muslims and Jews. The fact that CH couldn’t is further proof of that. You have a Muslim constituency and a right to pander to them while pretending to hold liberal beliefs. Try and give a talk on gay marriage to your muslim groups that you visit during elections. See what happens then.
The thing is Glenn, you still won’t need armed body guards tomorrow.
Glenn, I am a long time reader and think of you as consistently the best reporter in the world. That being said, I think this article is a big misstep. Your point is that the enthusiasm among some fools in the media to publish Charlie Hebdo’s anti-Muslim cartoons is actually a result of anti-Muslim sentiment, or at least a symptom of the media’s vilification of Muslims. Thus, you are making the point that anti-Semitic cartoons would be met differently in the media.
There are two big problems though:
1) The Charlie Hebdo cartoons are independently newsworthy. Knowledge of the content of the cartoons helps readers put the violence in context. In contrast, your anti-Semitic cartoons are not newsworthy at all.
2) By arguing that the “show of solidarity to support free speech” and the newsworthiness arguments are just pretexts to bash Muslims, isn’t your use of that same pretext, in the same article, to bash Jews an indication that you are anti-Semitic? I mean, as a matter of pure logic, aren’t you saying that these people are only supporting the free speech because they agree with it or are somehow okay with the content of the speech? But then, after saying that, you essentially say “well if we can use free speech as a pretext to say what we wish we could say, I’m going to go publish some really odious anti-Semitic cartoons?”
There is a moment in one of the first episodes of Family Guy where local newscasters in Rhode Island realize that their ability to broadcast their message in Rhode Island just got knocked out while they were on air. The newscasters instantly start saying inappropriate things, culminating in one saying “I just plain don’t like black people.” The joke being, he immediately thereafter is told that they are still on in Boston. The analogy is not perfect, but the point is, when you had an excuse to do so, you chose to bash Jews.
Obviously, no violence or governmental action should be targeted towards you for your speech. But private parties are free to scorn you if they believe you are bigoted, and will en masse. So again, I fear that this article was a misstep. I think your criticism of Isreal is principled and well-reasoned, so it is a shame for you to do something that makes your excellent points easier to simply brush off as anti-Semitic.
Joe, your claim of what is newsworthy regarding satire and cartoons is purely subjective. The image of Uncle Sam holding a set of scales for example, is notably newsworthy in my opinion, and is a direct criticism of the USA’s duplicity, which I concede may still qualify as anti-semetic these days. I believe Glenn’s use of these images, is a masterstroke not a misstep or an excuse to bash Jews. The fact that you have labelled them antisemitic has underscored the point. The subject was free speech remember? More specifically … what we will defend, condemn, or even censor, according to our culturally induced pre-disposition. The point has been well made for those who can see it.
1) Newsworthiness is only incidental here, because no one is championing Charlie Hebdo or advocating the republication of these cartoons just so that “readers can put the violence in context.” In fact, people are explicitly saying something different: that the motivation is to show solidarity with those whose freedom of expression is being threatened and attacked. Informing readers is plainly not the point.
2) ” … you essentially say ‘well if we can use free speech as a pretext to say what we wish we could say, I’m going to publish …'” No, that’s wrong. Glenn is not saying that these writers are taking the opportunity to say things they wish to say but ordinarily can’t. He’s saying that they don’t and wouldn’t extend that offer of solidarity to all threatened speech equally; they’re only willing to offer it here because they (and their expected audience) are willing to endorse the content of the offending speech to some degree. To demonstrate this, he offers some cartoons that constitute threatened speech but whose content is clearly something these writers would be unwilling to endorse and asks whether they will receive the same defense. This has nothing at all to do with what Glenn himself thinks of these ideas.
To say “private parties are free to scorn you if they believe you are bigoted, and will en masse” is merely to say that people are free to misunderstand and misconstrue Glenn’s article. It’s true, but it’s not saying much.
Glenn, I am a long time reader and think of you as consistently the best reporter in the world. That being said, I think this article is a big misstep. Your point is that the enthusiasm among some fools in the media to publish Charlie Hebdo’s anti-Muslim cartoons is actually a result of anti-Muslim sentiment, or at least a symptom of the media’s vilification of Muslims. Thus, you are making the point that anti-Semitic cartoons would be met differently in the media.
There are two big problems though:
1) The Charlie Hebdo cartoons are independently newsworthy. Knowledge of the content of the cartoons helps readers put the violence in context. In contrast, your anti-Semitic cartoons are not newsworthy at all.
2) By arguing that the “show of solidarity to support free speech” and the newsworthiness arguments are just pretexts to bash Muslims, isn’t your use of that same pretext, in the same article, to bash Jews an indication that you are anti-Semitic? I mean, as a matter of pure logic, aren’t you saying that these people are only supporting the free speech because they agree with it or are somehow okay with the content of the speech? But then, after saying that, you essentially say “well if we can use free speech as a pretext to say what we wish we could say, I’m going to go publish some really odious anti-Semitic cartoons?”
There is a moment in one of the first episodes of Family Guy where local newscasters in Rhode Island realize that their ability to broadcast their message in Rhode Island just got knocked out while they were on air. The newscasters instantly start saying inappropriate things, culminating in one saying “I just plain don’t like black people.” The joke being, he immediately thereafter is told that they are still on in Boston. The analogy is not perfect, but the point is, when you had an excuse to do so, you chose to bash Jews.
Obviously, no violence or governmental action should be targeted towards you for your speech. But private parties are free to scorn you if they believe you are bigoted, and will en masse. So again, I fear that this article was a misstep. I think your criticism of Israel is principled and well-reasoned, so it is a shame for you to do something that makes your excellent points easier to simply brush off as anti-Semitic.
I believe you missed the point.
Why is turnabout no longer fair play?
Or are you, for example, claiming that AIPAC lobbying for our wars is not a comparably newsworthy context for that violence?
Turnabout? Yikes. You are not helping Glenn at all, altohone. So, by your use of “turnabout,” I assume you’re invoking “they did it to us, so we can do it to them.” Meaning, I suppose, that “those that sympathize with Jews but hate Muslims are using this as a pretext to further insult Muslims, so it is fair to use the same pretext to insult Jews.” Or something like that. In other words, you see this message as coming from Jews, so it is fair game to insult Jews. That is a really messed up thing to think.
Regarding your “AIPAC lobbying for our wars” being newsworthy, that is a really weak argument. If you think that those cartoons are equal to, say, Glenn’s own insightful reporting presenting the facts of AIPAC’s activities, I don’t even know where to start with you. Obviously, that point is newsworthy. But cartoons hinting at that point while invoking stereotypical anti-Semitic images are not, in the same way that a screed containing anti-Semitic slurs would not be. Now, if Glenn gets targeted by terrorists for posting the cartoons, they would become newsworthy, because they would be necessary to fully understand what happened. Just the Charlie Hebdo cartoons now are.
Did you read the article?
It seems not.
We did it to them, so it’s only free speech if we do it to them alone seems to be the argument GG refutes.
The “us vs them” tangent you went down doesn’t make sense if we are all defending the benefits of free speech.
It’s all us. There is no them.
“cartoons hinting at that point”?
That’s some “hint”.
Getting hit over the head with a hammer is less of a hint.
In any case, the obvious violence of war and who is pushing for it is newsworthy without “insightful reporting” being necessary.
The “stereotypical anti-Semitic images” are also unnecessary to make that point,.. but then the cartoon wouldn’t be serving to highlight the point of the article.
The idea that they can be offended but you can’t be ties right back in with what GG is arguing.
GG didn’t choose those cartoons by accident.
He came right out and said they were bigoted and offensive.
“Did you read the article?”
What an absurd way to start a reply comment. If you aren’t smart enough to know that I read it and thought about it, then engaging you is a waste of my time. And if you are smart enough to know that, and just want to score b.s. points with your standard trollish response, then engaging you is even more of a waste of my time. I’m done with you.
Joe
Perhaps saying Glenn is a “Jew bashing anti-Semite” is what led me to conclude you hadn’t read the article.
In any case, having just falsely assumed to know what I was saying, and then argued against the false assumption, then judging me for it, and now insulting me while ignoring what I wrote in an effort to help you understand the meaning, I would have to say there’s more than a little projection in your dismissal.
Think he was more saying – it’s not bold to post cartoons by which no one with any power in our sphere is offended, but much more so to post the ones he did. Accordingly, posting the offensive Muslim ones is easy – everyone w/ the exception of hardcore Muslim fanatics or out-of-fashion super PC people will applaud you. But post something that offends Jews, with whom many of us work and who are well represented and influential in our sphere, and see how willing people are to embrace the “free speech, no matter who it offends” principle they purport to affirm. Think the responses to this article largely bolster his point.
Talk about desperate to wedge his angle in!
Perhaps if there is a HOLOCAUST attempting to kill all European Muslims, then French law will categorize Anti-Islam cartoons as a crime, then, apparently, Mr. Greenwald will be happy.
People react spontaneously to this DIRECT, MURDEROUS, ASSAULT on our basic values, and the bodies and lives of the journalists and policemen who uphold them, and Greenwald’s reaction is “But if you really cared about free speech, you would protect Anti-Semitic speech as well, waaah!!”
It is enough to make one wonder if his paychecks should not read “House of Saud”.
Talk about desperate to wedge his angle in!
Perhaps if there is a HOLOCAUST attempting to kill all European Muslims, then French law will categorize Anti-Islam cartoons as a crime, then, apparently, Mr. Greenwald will be happy.
People react spontaneously to this DIRECT, MURDEROUS, ASSAULT on our basic values, and the bodies and lives of the journalists and policemen who uphold them, and Greenwald’s reaction is “But if you really cared about free speech, you would protect Anti-Semitic speech as well, waaah!!”
It is enough to make one wonder if his paychecks should not read “House of Saud”.
Thanks, Glenn, for this provocative article, radically broadening the perspective of and reframing this “discussion” with your signature considered nuance and eye for the character of mainstream journalism. This is why we love Greenwald!
guarded and carefully-aimed appreciation for many additional insights among the comments. would love to rant about how odious mahr is, but the problem isn’t him so much as political progressives (or, broadly, liberal- and progressive-identifying viewers) who will accord him some authority. the right-wing talking heads are not offensive in the same way, i think because mahr and his viewers seem as though they ought to be on my team. we are not disappointed when our opponents are vile: our opposition is validated. when our allies, or, at least, those-with-whom-we-stand-against-our-common-foes, are vile, or esteem vile authorities, it is more problematic. i think this distinguishes the disappointment in how mahr uses his podium from, say, the righteous indignation and full-bore contempt at how limbaugh and oreilly use theirs.
the question of blasphemy vs. freedom of speech is not quite rightly framed, but this problem hinges on ambiguity in the term blasphemy. you see, in general, blasphemers are members of a faith tradition who hold or espouse a view or opinion that contradicts a tenet or more of that faith tradition’s dogma. infidels — persons not of the faith tradition — generally are not blasphemers except in the obvious way that “infidel” signifies. however, it might be the case in a religious schism situation that divergent tenets lead to actually-separate communities of faith, transforming those original blasphemers into a blasphemous sect, individual members of which may just be infidels (with respect to the original/parent tradition). anyway, when faith community authorities are the instruments of civil policy, and faith community is monolithic, blasphemy may come to signify a crime.
but when persons who are not adherents of a faith elect to perform transgression of that faith’s tenets for the express or implicit purpose of giving offense, the behavior is not properly signified as blasphemy. it is something else, something more akin to desecration than sin or doctrinal fault.
the real distinction between what is described above as “blasphemy” — which i understand is currently being advocated as some sort of gesture of solidarity (or arrogation of the actual suffering of persons involved in a cause celebre to one’s own constructed identity, as BenjaminAP posted Scott Long addressing, above) — and free speech is a question of teleology: what end is the act or gesture calculated or structured to serve? this may not map point-for-point to the notion of authorial intent.
what is being called blasphemy merely seeks to be offensive. freedom of speech ensures a forum for deliberate offense. at present, the advocacy of mass expressions calculated to transgress (what many understand to be) specific tenets of (some caricature of a fiqh of) Islam, feels more like some class of bullying than it does people rallying around free speech.
there might be some utility in applying first amendment obscenity notions of redeeming quality and social value to the scrutiny of the blasphemy movement. not, you know, for actual trials or anything; just insight and nuance.
thanks again, Glenn.
Highly recommend this London Review of Books essay about Americans trying to understand Charlie Hebdo. An excerpt:
Rest: http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2015/01/09/adam-shatz/moral-clarity/
So according to Greenwald, I need to not give in to the stereotype of being angry about Islamic terrorists and instead go with the stereotype that Jews run the media.
This logic goes well with the ridiculous hit pieces on Serial. Is this site supposed to be taken seriously?
no, you are not brave. You are an anti-Semite engaging in foolish and inaccurate bigotry. You are beneath contempt.
Well-written. Promoting hate is not free speech or art.
What a powerful article! Thanks, GG.
Religions were invented by the rich and powerful to maintain abusive control over the masses: we’ll trash your lives in this dimension, in exchange for our word of an eternal bliss for you in an extravagant hereafter. Is it any wonder that anyone who needs to believe in such fanciful fairy tales will go to any extreme to defend that illusion? I have no problem with anyone who needs to believe in dreamlike tales to stay sane, to dutifully show up everyday for the endless life on the chain gang. Without religions, humanity would likely have driven itself to extinction a long time ago. Or created a life worth living equally for all.
Anyone who needs to stoop to attack sacred beliefs, then hides behind the “freedom of speech” to offend with impunity people they don’t know and will never meet, defies faith in humanity. People need their belief in a surreal entity because humanity has failed them again and again. The phony CH journalists, and others like them, clearly are unsophisticated hacks, even psychopaths, who lack the basic capacity to understand reality, have no personal and professional courage, even necessary skills to constructively address the real, underlying issues that drive people to desperate acts. These are not journalists, but useful idiots for their would-be puppet masters, i.e., the rich and powerful pathocrats, worshippers of their own god, Mammon.
Yes, freedom of speech is necessary, but should it be allowed so that a crass minority can offend, with impunity, the most powerful form of hope for the majority of humanity? I don’t know. That was once a safety valve to diffuse pent up prejudices. It’s not working anymore.
I despair at the cruel stupidity of the erudite power mongers, the pathocrats, who are, in reality, primitive brutes; modern day troglodytes with a death wish for all of humanity, who fail to grasp that they too are mortal and following a pointless life, are destined to spend eternity, like the rest of us, as a handful of long forgotten dust.
“even the liberal New Republic”
“Even all the French about their own culture and magazine.”
yes, because one of the hallmarks of institutionally racist society is its self awareness.
France has a left. I’m not hearing from them about Charlie Hebdo’s racism.
People who understand idiomatic French, and French politics, seem to have a different idea than you. Odd, huh?
“Liberals” and “the left” are ever so reluctant to admit that they participated/participate in institutional racism in America too.
As if racism in justice, employment, banking, housing, etc. only occurred/occurs in red states.
Enlightened rhetoric doesn’t excuse the policies.
As usual, Greenwald tailor this story into his preferred narrative of western imperialism. This article is full of factual errors (like no western cartoonist would dare to publish cartoons targeting Judaism) and makes it once again obvious that Greenwald doesn’t understand the distinction between hate speech and criticism of ideas.
Why I am not Charlie
Scott Long for mondoweiss. An excellent companion to Glenn’s brave piece.
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/why-i-am-not-charlie
Glenn’s piece is critically flawed. Charlie Hebdo committed blasphemy, not racism. Running a series of anti-semitic cartoons, as Glenn does, = non sequitur.
Moreover, Charlie Hebdo prolly ran more blasphemy and sacrilege of Christianity than Islam: http://qz.com/322550/charlie-hebdo-has-had-more-legal-run-ins-with-christians-than-with-muslims/
“Muslims are not a race!”
Willfully obtuse. “Blasphemy”, and religion as a whole, deeply implicates tribal identifications (plural). The attack on CH does not exist outside of these contexts. The desperation to avoid said context is telling.
I don’t agree with the argument that anti-Muslim animus can’t be racist; it can. But I’ve seen no evidence of this from Charlie Hebdo.
Blasphemy is not racism. Especially not from the people of Voltaire, who consider blasphemy a sacrament.
I’m trying to follow the more nuanced political and cultural currents being discussed as well, but honestly the blogs I’m reading are focused on the “were the images racist/bigoted?” aspect. In other words, do the images, even though satire, actually support stereotypes and bigotry? So Glenn’s piece would be apropos. Throwing the more technical term blasphemy in there complicates thing, and necessarily for good conversation, but it’s not what I’ve seen as the focus in my readings ….
I’m not surprised the outrage machine overlooks that blasphemy is at issue, and that al Qaeda repeatedly and specifically cited blasphemy as the infraction that motivated the killings. It is, indeed, too “technical” for the simple-minded. As is comprehending French culture and its historical celebration of blasphemy.
The entire point of the article is undermined by the fact that blasphemy was the “crime” for which the murders took place, not racism or anti-Muslim sentiment. If Charlie Hebdo published racist or anti-Muslim cartoons that’s unfortunate, but those aren’t the cartoons I see people reposting now. The parallel of anti-Jewish cartoons fails because most of the cartoons are directed at Jewish people, not their God or their religion. It’s pretty tough to get a rise from Jewish people by making fun of their religion because they’re pretty quick to do so themselves. And of course Charlie Hebdo did publish some very provocative Christian blasphemy, too, but that didn’t get them killed.
The comparison of anti-abortion violence and the Israeli occupation of Palestine are simply laughable.
“the taboo that is at least as strong, if not more so, are anti-Jewish images and words. Why aren’t Douthat, Chait, Yglesias and their like-minded free speech crusaders calling for publication of anti-Semitic material in solidarity, or as a means of standing up to this repression?”
It’s a false equivalency…if you want to make fun of Moses and BiBi…go right ahead…but der strummer esque images of “pernicious Jews” are racist…
however, in my case, I will still defend anyone’s right to print and say whatever they want…and that includes bigots…
in the end I’m as concerned about AQ as I am about Wall Street because ultimately…when you follow the money…the guys who want to be “wolfs of Wall Street”…are as much terrorists as the the psychopaths who stabbed France in the heart…
but then I’m a fan of nuanced readings of historical narratives…
It is common for progressives to (rightly) expect that one try to understand another culture before passing judgment on it. So, too, should one consider the words of a Frenchwoman who insists her culture is radically atheist and secular, and has a right to be. She further explains that Charlie Hebdo is not racist. Addressing the cartoon of their black Justice Minister, Christiane Taubira, depicted as a monkey (her emphasis):
Read the woman’s whole (so-so English) here: http://67-tardis-street.tumblr.com/post/107589955860/dear-us-followers
I’ve encountered a similar explanation for the cartoon of the pregnant Boko Haram sex slaves Glenn reproduced; if I can find it again I will reproduce it.
I understand it’s Charlie Hebdo’s alleged racism this woman is focusing on, but philosophically the Taubira episode is interesting in a freedom-of-speech perspective.
First, the Charlie Hebdo cover, re-tweeted three days ago (with a disapproving comment) by Max Blumenthal, of all people
https://twitter.com/maxblumenthal/status/553028659888807936
But he got the facts wrong : Charlie Hebdo wasn’t the first to illustrate one of far-right magazine ‘Minute’ ‘s cover titles, namely “Christiane Taubira a la banane”, which is an idiomatic expression (involving a banana) meaning she’s feeling great.
This cover itself didn’t fall out of the blue. There were two precedents :
a/ In October 2013, a far-right candidate at a local election had already euphemistically compared her to a monkey on national television : “I’d rather see her jump in a tree than in the government”, she’d said. For making this statement, she was sentenced to a 9-month prison term… by a French Guyana-based tribunal after a local political party had filed a lawsuit against her (French Guyana is Taubira’s birthplace. She wrote numerous books about different aspects of French colonialism, among which the education system, which, until the 1960ies, taught even Caribbean kids they had Gallic ancestors.). A small store owner, the woman wasn’t able to attend her own trial, nor get represented in this far-away piece of the late French empire.
All (caustic) details here : http://ecrans.liberation.fr/ecrans/2014/07/20/taubira-l-affreuse-et-le-marteau-pilon_1067272
b/ Some anti-gay-marriage protestors then recycled the comparison and started throwing bananas at Taubira when she appeared at public events. Posters of her featuring her picture as an adult next to that of a young monkey with a ‘before/after’ caption started appearing.
c/ Only after these two events, and after the ‘Minute’ cover, did Charlie Hebdo publish the cartoon Max Blumenthal now finds so repellent.
This indeed tends to illustrate not only the blatant absence of French cultural background a lot of US media pundits commenting the Charlie Hebdo attack suffer from (as you said yourself, Mona), but also a certain emotional bias that seems to prevent even the bravest among them from gathering (all) the facts before hanging some newspaper out to dry.
Second, the philosophical aspect :
Taubira is not the only European politician who had to endure being compared to a monkey by some extremists. So did former Italian minister of Integration Cécile Kyenge, in her case even within parliament !
Here’s my question : if you take away the harassment and the death threats both were regularly subject to, can such an obnoxious comparison somehow be considered a form of satire when the one making it is a politician ? To paraphrase, is satire the exclusive prerogative of professional satirists, or a basic human right in any free society ? In the latter case, are there any decency limits ? And according to which criteria does one assert when satire is threatening to lead to physical violence ? In the former case, since all journalists/cartoonists need a State-delivered press card, and all humorists a State-delivered licence for the entertainment business (renewable every three years), isn’t the State somehow in a position to determine which type of satire it deems acceptable, and which not ? If so, does the concept of State-sanctified satire make any sense ?
As illustrated by the witch hunt against French comedian Dieudonné, accused of being an anti-Semite, these are no abstract questions…
I understand it’s Charlie Hebdo’s alleged racism this woman is focusing on, but philosophically the Taubira episode is interesting in a freedom-of-speech perspective.
First, the Charlie Hebdo cover, re-tweeted three days ago (with a disapproving comment) by Max Blumenthal, of all people
https://twitter.com/maxblumenthal/status/553028659888807936
But he got the facts wrong : Charlie Hebdo wasn’t the first to illustrate one of far-right magazine ‘Minute’ ‘s cover titles, namely “Christiane Taubira a la banane”, which is an idiomatic expression (involving a banana) meaning she’s feeling great.
This cover itself didn’t fall out of the blue. There were two precedents :
a/ In October 2013, a far-right candidate to a local election had already euphemistically compared her to a monkey on national television : “I’d rather see her jump in a tree than being part of the government”, she’d said. For this statement, she was sentenced to a 9-month prison term… by a French Guyana-based tribunal after a local political party had filed a lawsuit against her (French Guyana is Taubira’s birthplace. She wrote several books about different aspects of French colonialism, among which the education system, which, until the 1960ies, taught even Caribbean kids they had Gallic ancestors.). A small store owner, the woman wasn’t able to attend her own trial, nor get represented in this far-away piece of the late French empire.
All (caustic) details here : http://ecrans.liberation.fr/ecrans/2014/07/20/taubira-l-affreuse-et-le-marteau-pilon_1067272
b/ Some anti-gay-marriage demonstrators then recycled the comparison and started throwing bananas at Taubira when she appeared at public events. Posters of her featuring her picture as an adult next to that of a young monkey with a ‘before/after’ caption started appearing.
c/ Only after these two events, and after the ‘Minute’ cover, did Charlie Hebdo publish the cartoon Max Blumenthal now finds so repellent.
This indeed tends to illustrate not only the blatant absence of French cultural background a lot of US media pundits commenting the Charlie Hebdo attack suffer from (as you said yourself, Mona), but also a certain emotional bias that seems to prevent even the bravest among them from gathering (all) the facts before hanging some newspaper out to dry.
Second, the philosophical aspect :
Taubira is not the only European politician who had to endure being compared to a monkey by some extremists. So did former Italian minister of Integration Cécile Kyenge, in her case even within parliament !
Here’s my question : if you take away the harassment and the death threats both were regularly subject to, can such an obnoxious comparison somehow be considered a form of satire when the one making it is a politician ? To paraphrase, is satire the exclusive prerogative of professional satirists, or a basic human right in any free society ? In the latter case, are there any decency limits ? And according to which criteria does one assert when satire is threatening to lead to physical violence ? In the former case, since all journalists/cartoonists need a State-delivered press card, and all humorists a State-delivered license for the entertainment business (renewable every three years), isn’t the State somehow in a position to determine which type of satire it deems acceptable, and which not ? If so, does the concept of State-sanctified satire make any sense ?
As illustrated by the State-level witch hunt against French comedian Dieudonné, accused of being an anti-Semite and a hate instigator, these are no abstract questions…
I understand it’s Charlie Hebdo’s alleged racism this woman is focusing on, but philosophically the Taubira episode is interesting in a freedom-of-speech perspective.
First, the Charlie Hebdo cover, re-tweeted three days ago (with a disapproving comment) by Max Blumenthal, of all people
https://twitter.com/maxblumenthal/status/553028659888807936
But he got the facts wrong : Charlie Hebdo wasn’t the first to illustrate one of far-right magazine ‘Minute’ ‘s cover titles, namely “Christiane Taubira a la banane”, which is an idiomatic expression (involving a banana) meaning she’s feeling great.
This cover itself didn’t fall out of the blue. There were two precedents :
a/ In October 2013, a far-right candidate to a local election had already euphemistically compared her to a monkey on national television : “I’d rather see her jump in a tree than being part of the government”, she’d said. For this statement, she was sentenced to a 9-month prison term… by a French Guyana-based tribunal after a local political party had filed a lawsuit against her (French Guyana is Taubira’s birthplace. She wrote several books about different aspects of French colonialism, among which the education system, which, until the 1960ies, taught even Caribbean kids they had Gallic ancestors.). A small store owner, the woman wasn’t able to attend her own trial, nor get represented in this far-away piece of the late French empire.
All (caustic) details here (in French !) : http://ecrans.liberation.fr/ecrans/2014/07/20/taubira-l-affreuse-et-le-marteau-pilon_1067272
b/ Some anti-gay-marriage demonstrators then recycled the comparison and started throwing bananas at Taubira when she appeared at public events. Posters of her featuring her picture as an adult next to that of a young monkey with a ‘before/after’ caption started appearing.
c/ Only after these two events, and after the ‘Minute’ cover, did Charlie Hebdo publish the cartoon Max Blumenthal now finds so repellent.
This indeed tends to illustrate not only the blatant absence of French cultural background a lot of US media pundits commenting the Charlie Hebdo attack suffer from (as you said yourself, Mona), but also a certain emotional bias that seems to prevent even the bravest among them from gathering (all) the facts before hanging some newspaper out to dry.
Second, the philosophical aspect :
Taubira is not the only European politician who had to endure being compared to a monkey by some extremists. So did former Italian minister of Integration Cécile Kyenge, in her case even within parliament !
Here’s my question : if you take away the harassment and the death threats both were regularly subject to, can such an obnoxious comparison somehow be considered a form of satire when the one making it is a politician ? To paraphrase, is satire the exclusive prerogative of professional satirists, or a basic human right in any free society ? In the latter case, are there any decency limits ? And according to which criteria does one assert when satire is threatening to lead to physical violence ? In the former case, since all journalists/cartoonists need a State-delivered press card, and all humorists a State-delivered license for the entertainment business (renewable every three years), isn’t the State somehow in a position to determine which type of satire it deems acceptable, and which not ? If so, does the concept of State-sanctified satire make any sense ?
As illustrated by the State-level witch hunt against French comedian Dieudonné, accused of being an anti-Semite and a hate instigator, these are no abstract questions…
______________
PS : I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE COMMENT VALIDATION SYSTEM. SOME COMMENTS I POST APPEAR RIGHT AWAY. OTHERS NEVER SHOW UP AT ALL ! THIS ONE, I MUST HAVE POSTED 5 TIMES BY NOW…
Having grown up in France, and being a native speaker, I can attest that the interpretation of the “monkey” cartoon of Christiane Taubira is correct. The title of the cartoon makes it absolutely unambiguous.
I understand it’s Charlie Hebdo’s alleged racism this woman is focusing on, but philosophically the Taubira episode is interesting in a freedom-of-speech perspective.
First, the Charlie Hebdo cover, re-tweeted the day of the attacks (with a disapproving comment) by Max Blumenthal, of all people
https://twitter.com/maxblumenthal/status/553028659888807936
But he got the facts wrong : Charlie Hebdo wasn’t the first to illustrate one of far-right magazine ‘Minute’ ‘s cover titles, namely “Christiane Taubira a la banane”, which is an idiomatic expression (involving a banana) meaning she’s feeling great.
This cover itself didn’t fall out of the blue. There were two precedents :
a/ In October 2013, a far-right candidate to a local election had already euphemistically compared her to a monkey on national television : “I’d rather see her jump in a tree than being part of the government”, she’d said. For this statement, she would later be sentenced to a 9-month prison term… by a French Guyana-based tribunal after a local political party filed a lawsuit against her (French Guyana is Taubira’s birthplace. She wrote several books about different aspects of French colonialism, among which the education system, which, until the 1960ies, taught even Caribbean kids they had Gallic ancestors.). A small store owner, the woman wasn’t able to attend her own trial, nor get represented in this far-away piece of the late French empire.
All (caustic) details here (in French) : http://ecrans.liberation.fr/ecrans/2014/07/20/taubira-l-affreuse-et-le-marteau-pilon_1067272
b/ Some anti-gay-marriage demonstrators then recycled the comparison and started throwing bananas at Taubira when she appeared at public events. Posters of her featuring her picture as an adult next to that of a young monkey with a ‘before/after’ caption started appearing.
c/ Only after these two events, and after the ‘Minute’ cover, did Charlie Hebdo publish the cartoon Max Blumenthal now finds so repellent.
This indeed tends to illustrate not only the blatant absence of French cultural background a lot of US media pundits commenting the Charlie Hebdo attack suffer from (as you said yourself, Mona), but also a certain emotional bias that seems to prevent even the bravest among them from gathering (all) the facts before hanging some newspaper out to dry.
Second, the philosophical aspect :
Taubira is not the only European politician who had to endure being compared to a monkey by some extremists. So did former Italian minister of Integration Cécile Kyenge, in her case even within parliament !
Here’s my question : if you take away the harassment and the death threats both were regularly subject to, can such an obnoxious comparison somehow be considered a form of satire when the one making it is a politician ? To paraphrase, is satire the exclusive prerogative of professional satirists, or a basic human right in any free society ? In the latter case, are there any decency limits ? And according to which criteria does one assert when satire is threatening to lead to physical violence ? In the former case, since all journalists/cartoonists need a State-delivered press card, and all humorists a State-delivered license for the entertainment business (renewable every three years), isn’t the State somehow in a position to determine which type of satire it deems acceptable, and which not ? If so, does the concept of State-sanctified satire make any sense ?
As illustrated by the State-level witch hunt against French comedian Dieudonné, accused of being an anti-Semite and a hate instigator, these are no abstract questions…
I get the culture thing. I’m a descendant of French ancestors, maybe that helps. However, 2 billion Muslims don’t see the humor in it (likely most have not spent time absorbing French culture). This is 2015. W.r.t. publications, we are global. Depicting naked Muslim woman on the cover of a magazine as humor (like funny, haha), progressive though it may be, isn’t the smartest way to get your message out. But GG was just illuminating the hypocrisy in fascist geopolitical tolerance. And on that note, he’s right on.
An excellent companion piece by Teju Cole:
**http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/unmournable-bodies
A nice thought provoking piece – and the point about double standards is certainly valid. However, the problem is that I really do not think there are many extremist Jews running around murdering cartoonists, nor are there clear rules within Judaism that prohibid the drawing of certain cartoons. That is the difference. Nor is career destruction quite as bad as getting murdered by crazed theocrats.
Well we’ll never know, will we? Not if anti-Semitic cartoons & imagery continue to be suppressed.
They couldn’t have been all that suppressed if Glenn was able to find and publish them. Anti-Semitic cartoons of this kind are broadcast pretty widely in the middle east. Iran even held a contest for the most offensive holocaust cartoon.
Gee, Glenn. Take a look at that cartoon all the way on the right at this link: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/07/charlie_hebdo_covers_religious_satire_cartoons_translated_and_explained.html
Hey, how about that. They also mocked jews. How come you didn’t include that one? Maybe because it doesn’t fit in with your thesis?
“Nor is career destruction quite as bad…” – yes, let’s suggest next time they get such cartoonists fired instead.
Folks, you’re gonna have a lot of work to do for the next few years at least. Most people are against you. No reason to give up, but you should know just how unpopular you are. Europe is fracturing over this issue. Get ready to rumble!
Most people are against who about what?
There is a serious error in the headline to this article. It promises “more blasphemous cartoons.” Where are they? All I see are a bunch of cartoons promoting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories or portraying Israel as demonic. What does any of that have to do with blasphemy? Those aren’t cartoons against Judaism, they’re racist cartoons against Jews.
As for Charlie Hebdo, Greenwald’s claim that they publish racist cartoons against Muslims is simply wrong. They publish blasphemous cartoons that mock religious fundamentalism, violence, and prudery. One issue’s cover showed Muhammed, exasperated by fundamentalists, saying, “It’s tough to be loved by idiots.” Such a cartoon may be blasphemous to fundamentalists who consider any depiction of Muhammed a capital offense, but the intent is clearly to defend Muhammed from people who do idiotic things in his name (like killing cartoonists because they can’t take a joke).
Greenwald was offended by the picture of a bare-assed Muhammed and called it “degrading.” I recommend he keep his delicate eyes away from Charlie Hebdo because there are bare asses all over the place. One cover showed a bare-assed President Sarkozy. Another showed a bare-assed Jesus.
And by the way. The bare-assed Jesus was sodomizing God the Father, right there on the cover of the magazine. That should rate higher on the offensiveness meter than the rather tame picture of a bare-assed Muhammed. So no, it’s not true that Charlie Hebdo unfairly singles out Islam for mockery. Glenn Greenwald just doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
I respectfully suggest that The Intercept pull this piece. It’s misinformed and wrongheaded from beginning to end, and on top of that, it is an insult to the memory of the courageous leftwing journalists who just gave their lives standing up for freedom of speech. Is it really necessary to spit on their graves in this way?
Glenn and everyone –
Wow, very powerful piece. I to have just a couple of reactions. Although there were some who probably did want to “celebrate” what might be called bigoted, there were also probably some who wanted the cartoons published in defiance of the climate of fear you noted can afflict many media outlets. I’m glad you keep making the point that supporting the right to say X doesn’t mean you agree with X. I think that trying to maintain that distinction is one of the things that makes Freedom of Speech hard, not easy. But as JFK said we do things not because they are easy but because they are hard (or something like that…).
Maybe a cartoon mocking Christianity would have rounded things out, as some have suggested. Ah well… maybe another time…
To be honest, I don’t like hate speech and I don’t really look to find ways to offend others about their religion or ethnicity or whatever. Satire has its place but I prefer it slightly less biting.
But I think you made the point admirably that we should not “embrace” some “offensive” content in defending Freedom of Speech and shun other content. I hope more people will attend to that idea.
As Maz Hussain reports elsewhere here, it was not racism or other grievance that caused the attack on charlie Hebdo. It was : blasphemy. AQAP statement, my emphasis:
Blasphemy. The subset of Muslim culture that will execute for committing blasphemy is incompatible with Western culture.
Errata: It is Jeremy Scahill, not Maz Hassain, reporting on AQAP’s statement about the Charlie Hebdo attack.
And I stated the following in that thread:
THESE BASTARDS ARE CANCEROUS TUMORS WITHIN ISLAM!!!
These cancerous tumors must be removed. They are wreaking havoc on earth. The Muslim leaders need to get together, throw them out of Islam, and come up with a strategy to defeat them once and for all.
They are the ones that are harmful to Islam, not the cartoons.
When is execution compatible with “Western culture”? Murder is illegal. Murder happens anyway. Muslim murderers are not special murderers. These crimes are not special crimes. “Your” culture is not under special attack. You’re engaging in a “liar’s conversation”.
http://fredrikdeboer.com/2015/01/07/on-debating-dead-moral-questions/
Nope — unless Scahill’s report of AQAQ’s stated reason for the Charlie Hebdo massacre is wrong, that atrocity was driven by one thing: blasphemy. The West stopped punishing blasphemy many years ago; our classically liberal culture considers absolutely protected speech.
But beginning with the Danish in ’06, Western media has been terrorized into not publishing anything that certain Muslims would deem blasphemous. Back then, Glenn Greenwald wrote:
Exactly. The right of Westerners to publish blasphemy is under attack, and has been since at least ’06. We must, therefore, begin promiscuous publication of material deemed blasphemous by the killers and terrorists.
This is false consciousness. The law hasn’t changed. You can still visit the bad part of town. Right now! Go! It’s your right. But you may be afraid to do so. Or you may have no reason to visit. That is the political reality of interdependent existence. You can’t legislate the inner world of rational creatures.
Oh. Go tell that to the 12 slaughtered Charlie Hebdo staff and their families. Tell it to CNN’s Jeff Zucker who says protection of his employees dictates not running the blasphemous cartoons — even tho they are absolutely newsworthy. Tell it to all the Western journos and media outlets who have been self-censoring blasphemy against the Prophet since at least ’06.
Yeah, false consciousness, that’s the ticket. [snort]
You’re the prescriber in this discussion Mona, not me. You tell “them” they have no right to be afraid. Murder is illegal. But apparently that’s not enough. What is your suggestion? Should they sue? What?
Huh? My reply was to your absurd prattle about “false consciousness.”
False consciousness as in “rights” are based in law. You don’t have the negative liberty to “not be afraid”. That doesn’t exist in the world of flesh and emotion.
If you think that’s an absurd view, fine. Let’s not get hung up on that. What I want to know is what is your suggestion. People are afraid to publish antagonistic cartoons. Murder is illegal. Now what? What are you suggesting?
As I’ve said before, I believe the press ought to publish those blasphemous cartoons as a means of defending their right to publish ideas free of intimidation and attack. (Almost verbatim Glenn Greenwald, 2/06)
And you think this will persuade anyone who intends to murder cartoonists, not to murder cartoonists?
I think if it is seen that the western media won’t conform publishing decisions to terrorist preferences, such attacks will no longer seem so useful.
Mona, you are now expressing yourself and your preference, as in “I THINK if it is seen…” (my emphasis), just as when you basically quoted Glenn (apparently in ’06) saying “I BELIEVE the press OUGHT to publish…”
Realize this is not a demand, nor does it imply total inflexibilty.
What you’ve been saying up till now has been often a variation on what you said to BenjaminAP in the comment these replies are beneath:
“WE MUST, therefore, begin promiscuous publication of material deemed blasphemous by the killers and terrorists” (my emphasis).
This is a demand. It is not identical to the other statements, although all of them use strident language.
Consider that it’s the coercion that THE PRESS MUST which is being resisted, regardless of the merit of the principle behind the demand.
Fair enough. But I think that misunderstands the nature of terrorism, rooted in humiliation – feeding on persecution. It only gets worse from here.
There has been concerted effort by the Organization of Islamic Conference – which is made of 56 Muslim countries – to make blasphemy illegal under international laws at the UN level. This is incompatible with western values. This is not just about murders by some fanatics, there is a larger cultural conflict.
I think “je suis Charlie” has much less to do with Islam and much more to do with showing spine and refusing to give in to fear- specifically, fear of those who would use murder and other heinous acts to re-make the world in a way that conforms to their own desires and belief systems.
Much as I admire Mr. Greenwald’s work, after reading this article I felt as if I had been slathered with buckets of red herrings. Murder is murder. The murder of journalists and artists is an effort to intimidate.
The Western culture you praise says “being in the way of our resource-looting corporatism or militarism will get you marginalized, imprisoned, raped to death or otherwise tortured or murdered, along with anyone near you.”
But wait: perhaps this is of course no more actually a ‘subset’ of true, honest Western culture than lunatic extremists are really a ‘subset’ of Islam.
Perhaps both terrorists AND corporatist militarists are simply greed and frustration mixed with violence, using the tenets of respectable expressions to hide their evil beneath a convenient deception.
I’ll stand second to none in having undertaken my share of deep criticism of U.S. policy and culture. Literally countless are the times I’ve been advised I hate America.
In point of fact, I greatly esteem the Bill of Rights, and would die for the values it guarantees and reflects. That would include the right to satirize religion and commit blasphemy, which I do in terms of Xtianity with some frequency.
You have been and continue to quite brilliant in your criticism, and though you’ve disappointed me in a major way you should know I respect you. FWIW I think your disagreement with Glenn on this is mostly due to the WE MUST aspect of your argument.
The state is the secular religion.
The Dixie Chicks were found guilty of blasphemy by “patriots” (or the secular religious patriarchy) and sentenced to death.
Assigning new and different names to age old actions doesn’t change what they are in the human experience.
“Progress” is merely a means of disguising and making old, primitive things seem new by the use of new language.
See how torture became enhanced interrogation?
There is no established religion in the US. Therefore, there are to be no false gods before the apotheosis of the all powerful and beneficent state. To hold otherwise is heresy.
Thou shall not consume the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. To reason is to doubt the secular god. See how that works?
” we’re publishing some blasphemous and otherwise offensive cartoons about religion and their adherents:”
Interesting that these cartoons supposedly about “religion and their adherents” are only about the Jewish religion. hmmm .
The article misses the point of what happened . First of all he is wrong and charlie hebdo did criticise all religions . Muslims got extra converge recently because they were being extra ridiculous . There is a big difference between not writing something because it is socially unacceptable and not writing it because you are getting death threats . Muslim people and liberals are free to draw cartoons of Jews and criticise Israel without having death threats . There is only one religion in the world that has blasphemy laws at this moment in history . I also failed to see anything about Theo Van Gogh, Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali which have either been killed or live with death threats .
If predominantly Jewish populated countries had been bombarded into the stone age like the predominantly Muslim populated countries have for the last 25 years, I’d like to see the reaction to those anti-Semite cartoons Glenn posted.
Muslims have tried to drive the Jews into the Red Sea for 70 years now. I’m sure you’re greatly disappointed at their lack of success.
Rick, just curious how many predominantly countries you can name?
To use this tragedy as an excuse to publish anti-Semitic cartoons, wow what a courage…
I wonder why my freedom of speech is not respected and why my comments are not posted.
I wonder why my freedom of speech is not respected and my comments are not posted.
Maybe you should look up the definition of blasphemy. The anti semetic cartoons you posted arent blasphemous just hateful. And you won’t get killed for them and you knoknow it.
Regarding the firing of Sine in 2008, this is more complex than what is in the telegraph article (more context in French http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/2008/07/17/sine-vire-charlie-hebdo-en-deuil-philippe-val-dans-la-tourmente). Also it should be noted that Sine had a lot of supporters (a majority of French people – Tignous being at least one of them). In 2010 the Paris High Court ordered the publisher of Charlie Hebdo to pay Sine 40 000€ in damages for unfair dismissal. And in 2012, the Paris Court of Appeal increases the amount to 90 000€. The charges of anti-semitism were completely absurd. It was Val – editor of CH and a partisan of the Gayssot Law – being overzealous. And since then CH did draw cartoons mocking jews (and christians too) and no one was fired. Charb even expressed criticism of Israel.
I am not a big fan of CH but some of the critics they get are rather unfair.
That being said I personally think we should be able to mock/criticize everyone and everything.
OT: Paging coram nobis. Please pick up the nearest white courtesy phone:
Findings and sentence disapproved in US v. Noor Uthman Muhammed
http://www.defense.gov/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=17107&source=GovDelivery
10 USC is the title under the US Code for the US military. § 950 involves an executive branch review of a court sentence under the aegis of the DC Circuit Court of Appeals. He was tried and convicted by a military commission after confessing, in the best Soviet tradition. The bit about “it was legal error to try the offense of providing material support or terrorism before a military commission” suggests an error of procedure, maybe it should have been in a real Federal Court and not this star-chamber system. It suggests that the defendant gets another retrial at some point, i.e., he goes back to jail for a few more years, do not past Go, do not collect $200.
Thanks coram. That’s pretty much how I read it as well.
I don’t comment on Glenn’s articles at all any more, mostly because this is a piss poor comment system, but wow, this is one helluva gutsy article– probably one of his best. It’s unfortunate that many, if not most, will not understand his point. Kudos
I find this entire thing repellant. I support freedom of speech. But just because you have that freedom does not mean you should say or write things. People know Muslims do not like it when people draw disrespectful images of the Prophet Mohammad PBUH. Why do it? Most of you barely know anything about him. Like that saying, if you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say it at all. This is rude and nasty. You are insulting people simply because the law cannot do anything to you even if it is wrong. Logical real criticism is one thing. I do not say you cannot question what Islam says but insult the man over a billion Muslims respect? For what? Because you can? It is like questioning the Christian Trinity versus just insulting it. I am truly disgusted by your actions.
Oh this is good:
mediate – “Dershowitz denied that is what he said, but O’Donnell confronted him with an actual quotation about France: “They reward every terrorist.” From there, the pair got into a heated argument.
“It’s a crazy thing to say,” the MSNBC host declared in a clip first flagged by BreitbartTV. “They do not reward every terrorist do you want to say they’ve rewarded a few terrorists? Are you really going to sit here and say they rewarded every terrorist?”
“Virtually every terrorist who has been convicted and sent to prison in Paris has either gotten out,” the law professor pushed back. “[France] voted for Palestinian statehood for a country that was built on terrorism. They have done everything to avoid joining the fight on terrorism. I feel terrible for these people.”
That set O’Donnell off further, as he noted that many countries have supported such statehood. “So most countries in the world are Alan Dershowitz bad countries?” he asked.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWC-CIqX1Jo
Doesn’t that dead horse have an Epstein party to attend ?
File under Where the Hell Do You Get Off:
Bill Maher
@BillMaher
Condemning attack is not enuf: unless U strongly endorse the right of anyone to make fun of any religion/prophet, U r not a moderate Muslim
https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/552917610757500929
Many Muslims do not care how the likes of Bill Maher view them as. However, I’m going to copy and paste a previous post of mine below; I don’t know how to copy and paste its link on my iPad.
PREVIOUS COMMENTS OF MINE:
Yes, you have the right to insult me and what’s sacred to me.
Yes, you have the right to demonize me and what’s sacred to me.
Yes, you have the right to denounce me for things I have not done and what’s sacred to me.
Yes, you have the right to poke fun of me and what’s sacred to me.
Yes, you have the right to even physically and emotionally attack me and what’s sacred to me.
Yes, you have the right to behave discourteously towards me and what’s sacred to me.
Yes, you have the right to try to provoke me.
Yes, you have the right to lump us all Muslims together and paint us all with the same brush as if we are a monolithic herd of animals who are all wired and act the same way.
Yes, you have the right to draw satirical and not-so-satirical cartoons insulting me and what’s sacred to me.
Yes, you have the right to install billboards on buses, subway trains, subway stations, and all over every city to paint me and what’s sacred to me in a negative way.
Yes, … .
BUT,
I also have these rights:
I have the right to act patiently.
I have the right to act peacefully.
I have the right to not be provoked and not react at all.
I have the right to act kindly, generously and in a loving and mature manner towards you.
I have the right to consider your behavior towards me and what’s sacred to me as a reflection of your own inner state and nothing to do with me.
I am a Muslim and I approved this message, which came from my heart.
P.S. My heart goes out to the victims of this senseless massacre in France and their families. I also have the right to denounce all violence towards any non-combatants, including off-duty soldiers, regardless of their religion, non-religion, sect, race, culture and nationality.
I think if Maher were to read your words, his head would explode from the dissonance between what is in his mind and reality.
Like this: https://twitter.com/tomtomorrow/status/553558893432147968
There’re those who are not interested in anything positive emanating from the Muslims. I’ve posted this real life incident of Steven Emerson before:
In 1985 or 1986, Steven Emerson showed up at a Muslim gathering to collect dirt that he could throw at the Muslims in an anti-Islam book he was writing.
He was working for a company and was broke.
A friend of mine — a white American Jewish convert to a form of Sufi Islam — had a kiosk there. He took Emerson to a Taco Bell, bought him lunch and spent time with him discussing Islam.
Emerson showed no interest in anything positive, and was very disappointed that he could not collect the dirt there that he was looking for.
I do not know if Maher sees anything positive in the Muslims. But he does generalize and stereotype us all as if we are robots assembled on the same assembly line, wired to think and act the same way.
As I have stated before, he needs to spend some time researching and conducting thoughtful interviews with the likes of SEYYED Hossein Nasr, Kabir and Camille Helminski and William Chittick, to see how diverse we are, how concerned we are of what some Muslims are doing, and to develop a better understanding of the whole situation.
Sufi Muslim for president!
So, Bill, what about this Muslim?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/ahmed-merabet-mourned-charlie-hebdo-paris-attack
That was the gendarme murdered on the sidewalk. Complicates the story, doesn’t it?
Great article, was thinking the same last night while reading about Merabet’s death.
Weren’t there Muslim victims of the evil acts of 911?
Are they ever mentioned and mourned?
Hi,
I left a comment here a couple of hours ago under this name and using the same email address. A message in green said it was awaiting moderation, but it still hasn’t shown up. I’m just wondering why as myriad comments from other people have appeared in the meantime.
Much obliged,
Very impressed by this, I must admit. Sparks come off it.
Adversarial journalists should afflict the (comfortable and corrupt) establishment that is looting and stupefying the populace with corporatism and militarism, not succumb to pressure to pointedly approve inane, unproductive and vile caricatures.
Yes, commissar. they should rid them of their false consciousness only.
How many Christians and/or Jews in France have threatened or murdered cartoonists over the insulting or racist depictions of the Pope, Jesus, or Jews? Was Charlie Hebdo a brilliant publication, no. We don’t have to be supporting racism to criticize Islam. It isn’t a race. If there were a large minority of Christians supporting conservative Christian theocracies as there are in Muslim countries, I’d be criticizing the hell out of their Christian fundamentalist ideology too.
Stop being afraid to criticize Islam.
I find it a bit pathological that an article that is ostensibly about the right to offensive free speech is illustrated by anti-Jewish, anti-Israel cartoons. No other examples available? How does the author manage to turn this into something about Israel and Palestinians? I thought he was trying to make a (valid) point of free speech hypocrisy inherent in the je suis Charlie campaign. This formulation, however, clouds the main point and makes me see primarily the self-hating Jew.
I find it a bit pathological that an article that is ostensibly about the right to offensive free speech is illustrated by anti-Jewish, anti-Israel cartoons. No other examples available? How does the author manage to turn this into something about Israel and Palestinians? I thought he was trying to make a (valid) point of free speech hypocrisy inherent in the je suis Charlie campaign. This formulation, however, clouds the main point and makes me see primarily the self-hating Jew.
David Bernstein : “Glenn Greenwald: Pro-Israel sentiment in the U.S. is at least as bad for freedom of speech as Islamist terrorists murdering cartoonists”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/01/09/glenn-greenwald-pro-israel-sentiment-in-the-u-s-is-at-least-as-bad-for-freedom-of-speech-as-islamist-terrorists-murdering-cartoonists/
I don’t know if I remember reading that in the GG article…but Greenwald sure has stirred up the hornet’s nest.
What else does Bernstein say…He doesn’t think there is a taboo against criticizing Israel in the US, That reminds me…does anyone have the latest count on unanimous support-Israel resolutions in the US congress?
I looked it over with a magnifying glass and failed to find an actual supported argument there.
You restore my faith in Jews. Why can’t they all be like you?
worth your time.
http://www.humiliationstudies.org/research/terrorismlong.php
Freedom of speech can only be threatened by a monopoly of violence. Non-state actors have no such monopoly, never will, and pretending otherwise is false consciousness.
this too
http://dougsaunders.net/2013/04/muslim-immigrants-terrorists-jihad-terrorism/
I am used to Mr. Greenwald’s superb writing and uncompromising stance against all tyrannies and staunch defense of real democratic values. And this article is no exception, though I would say it is the most powerful I have read from him thus far. That is the real defense of free speech, the reaction of most of the western press is clearly hypocritical in extreme and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of human rights and freedom of expression. In France it is customary to confound the subject because yes, it is quite easy there to defend what we like to see, but quite another to tolerate the right of those who express different and abhorrent views to our eyes. We’ll see if madam LePen reaches her goal of becoming the elected power of Frnace. They will then have a ton of their own medicine…but I bet they will end up hating it.
Why are there no humorous or satirical cartoons depicting Christianity in the article, Glenn? I wholeheartedly agree, AIPAC and its siblings are quick to call any opposition to Israeli behavior anti-Semitic. But I suspect the tolerance in the US toward lampooning the absurd and contradictory tenets of fundamental Christianity would elicit a reaction no less vituperative than those we have seen from the Islamists.
The freedom of the press issue has been at the forefront of the western media lately, with the Sony hack and now murders in Paris. I continue to wonder what would have happened had Sony Pictures’ comedy been about a pair of North Korean morons who were recruited to assassinate President Obama, just as I wonder what the response would be to the murder of Edward Snowden. My suspicion is that the majority of Americans, and certainly the mainstream media here, would not be up at arms.
If you are going to be in favor of freedom of expression, it has to be accorded to your opponents as well as your allies. People who cannot comprehend that, and are unwilling to defend that right, ought to just shut up.
I agree 100% with what you said in your comment.
I too value freedom of speech as long as it belongs to EVERYONE EQUALLY…. Freedom and laughter are precious indeed, but isn’t it the French ‘socialist’ government that has been harassing and banning the best and most successful comedian in France, Dieudonné M’bala M’bala, because he satirized the Holocaust religion? Who pushed the French government to take such harsh actions against an artist; wasn’t it the Jewish lobby group CRIF?
The saliency of this article is deeply undercut by Greenwald’s failure to note that Charlie Hebdo itself has repeatedly caricatured Jews, including a famous cover in which it mocked the very supposed “untouchability” of Jews as a subject for mockery. In this context, the Sine firing is much less significant than Greenwald makes it out to be (not to mention that, as far as I know, no one at Hebdo itself ever described the magazine by the trite American phrase “equal opportunity offender”).
Exactly. I was surprised to hear Greenwald falsely claim that Charlie Hebdo as a rule has insulted Islam more than Judaism; a look through past issues shows that the paper has, as it claims, disseminated its insults evenly. I’ve been a longtime fan of Greenwald’s, and I had–perhaps still have–high hopes for The Intercept. But Greenwald’s writing over the past couple of months suggests he’s sliding from objectivity into something resembling mere contrarianism.
Also: Threats of death over journalistic content are widespread among Muslim-run governments–but they barely exist, if at all, in the West. Even if Charlie Hebdo were to aim a somewhat larger share of its ridicule at Islam–so what?
The saliency of this article is deeply undercut by Greenwald’s failure to note that Charlie Hebdo itself has repeatedly caricatured Jews, including a famous cover in which it mocked the very supposed “untouchability” of Jews as a subject for mockery. In this context, the Sine firing is much less significant than Greenwald makes it out to be (not to mention that, as far as I know, no one at Hebdo itself ever described the magazine by the trite American phrase “equal opportunity offender”).
Lookie here! The real argument(*) works just fine without misrepresenting or making assumptions about Douthat et al.
Ryan Cooper: censorship is not just about rando nutters threatening violence
Damon Linker: Yes it is. Self-censorship to avoid criticism is one thing. To avoid being murdered another. The distinction matters.
Glenn Greenwald: How about people prosecuted and imprisoned for years because of their political speech? That count?
Damon Linker: If they’re imprisoned for speech alone, of course that’s unacceptable and counts as censorship.
(*) “But there are all kinds of pernicious taboos in the west that result in self-censorship or compelled suppression of political ideas, from prosecution and imprisonment to career destruction: why is violence by Muslims the most menacing one?”
How can you say a “45 year old occupation of Gaza”? Israel left Gaza completely and for 6 months suffered rocket attacks until it started the blockade. Now the border crossing with Israel is the only one bringing supplies and aid into Gaza, since Egypt has completely shut down their border. If blockade is occupation, as you seem to think, then the only occupier in Gaza is Egypt. You are clearly misguided and interpret reality through an anti-israel cum anti-Semitic lens.
How can you say a “45 year old occupation of Gaza”? Israel left Gaza completely and for 6 months suffered rocket attacks until it started the blockade. Now the border crossing with Israel is the only one bringing supplies and aid into Gaza, since Egypt has completely shut down their border. If blockade is occupation, as you seem to think, then the only occupier in Gaza is Egypt. You are clearly misguided and interpret reality through an anti-israel cum anti-Semitic lens.
I can’t think of any western journalist who would have the balls to publish an article like this by Greenwald. He is truly fearless. May you live and prosper, my brother.
I wish we’d stop pretending that France (or anywhere else) actually has absolute freedom of expression. There are restrictions everywhere, and many of them are probably acceptable to many people. France has laws against holocaust denial, various forms of ‘hate speech’ (which aren’t applied to insulting Muslims or Islam, of course), showing drug-taking in a positive light, public display of pornography and its sale to minors… Some of may favorites: insulting the national flag or national anthem can get one fined or imprisoned. It is illegal to offend the dignity of the republic or insult any public servant. This is why Muslims don’t buy the patronizing “We civilized countries value freedom of expression above all, and you backwards people don’t understand this” line. It’s pure hypocrisy.
(This hypocrisy was demonstrated by those who, while unreservedly supporting that ‘freedom of expression/speech/the press’, complained bitterly that some media outlets showed photos of the police officer just before he was killed – or complained that certain articles (promoting conspiracy theories) shouldn’t have been published.)
As for the idea that France is the symbol of freedom in general, how does anyone say that with a straight face when, for example, young women have to take off their headscarves or be kicked out of school?
I fully agree with the sentiment that freedom of speech is important. However, I think you try to get away with some fast ones here. It’s not that there haven’t been real, serious injustices done in some of the cases you mention, especially that of Sami Al-Arian. But these injustices occurred by familiar mechanisms we know about and need to stop, and not by the unfamiliar ones you suggest.
To begin with, consider the case of Javed Iqbal, the New York cable TV case. Do I want us to have access to hear Hezbollah’s statements, views, beliefs? Sure. (I don’t intend them to benefit from that…) But so far as I could tell looking up the case, he was prosecuted for his business relationship, i.e. paying money to Hezbollah for the content. We can’t have sanctions _at all_ if all that Osama bin Laden has to do is scribble a few words on a piece of paper and you can pay him $100,000 for the content and call it a licensing deal. The real censorship bugaboo hiding here is a ubiquitous one – copyright. Whether you can’t afford the copyright, can’t pay it because the source is under embargo, or simply can’t find or reach the author of an abandoned work, the effect is the same: it’s censored. What we need to do is recognize that copyright has no place in an age when content can be copied for free (and was never really the right solution before then, just seemed fairly harmless when costs were substantial). Pushing for a right to buy that piece of paper from Osama? Not so much.
Now as for Al-Ariani, to begin with I’m seeing reports he pled guilty to something like 46-57 months, was promised lower end recommendation, got hit with the maximum… it may be ugly, but that’s not the injustice. The INJUSTICE is that prosecutors can throw the book at people, wild, outrageous charges, with no real protection from a grand jury system unless you happen to be a cop. And then they can present it as a bargain to give into the unconstitutional charges, give up your rights, because it’s better to do “time served” (itself an abomination of justice) than to risk losing your whole life to a bad jury verdict. That’s the same whether it’s a Muslim extremist or that poor kid Justin Carter who was talking a few lines of trash about going nuts during a video game. And then, of course, there’s the demand that he testify under a more or less unlimited penalty – that too is an injustice, but it’s not an injustice because a plea bargain should have freed him for it. A journalist concealing his source or (classically) an alleged Communist trying to shield his old friends faces the same thing. It’s simple McCarthyism, same now as ever – they ought to put Joe McCarthy on the $20 bill, replace Andrew Jackson, as the quintessential American. But it’s not some special justice system for Islam, just another out of control legal sanction.
As for your cartoons … I don’t think Charlie Hebdo deserves the comparison, but yes, all are free speech, and you have a right to post them. Fortunately the Jews don’t ever seem to go nuts trying to shoot you for it, which says something good about their religion I think; the fact that some of them still seek reprisals that contradict academic freedom, of course, puts the limit on how much good I might say there.
Wait a second. For you its ‘s ok to publish US intelligence info but “tasteless” cartoons are off the table ???
Why is it that all of the offensive cartoons you showed were anti-Jewish, but all of the examples of non-Muslim violence and threats to censure were Christian? That seems a grave oversight in your thesis, Mr. Greenwald. You should have included more examples of Jewish terrorists censuring free speech in the West to really drive home your point because, otherwise, your article seems a bit disingenuous.
And there’s not a Jew on the face of the planet that will commit murder and blame it on these cartoons. Thanks for pointing that out, Glen.
Dawkins is losing it. Okay, he did that a while back, but this????????
Richard Dawkins ?@RichardDawkins Jan 7
Of COURSE most Muslims are peaceful. But if someone’s killed for what they drew or said or wrote, you KNOW the religion of the killers.
Except when the dead guy is named al Awlaki of course.
The religion of the killers is not the same as the religions of the vast, vast, majority of those who call themselves Muslims.
Cancerous tumors are not part of the original body in which they reside. They must be removed!
“Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe. The demographic trends are ominous: Given current birthrates, France could be a majority Muslim country in 25 years, and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow.”
I wonder if Glenn Greenwald believes Jews are the cause of these other peoples misery as well? And I wonder how he would rank the areas in terms of most urgent to least. http://peoplesunderthreat.org/
This is one of the best defense-of-free-speech articles that I’ve seen since the attack. However, I take issue with something that Glenn said regarding commentators and publications being overly critical of Islam and hardly, if ever, criticising Judaism.
There are roughly 1.6 billion Muslims and 15 million Jews in the world. Assuming that Jews and Muslims (or Israelis and inhabitants of overwhelmingly Muslim-majority countries) commit heinous acts at the same rate, statistically there will be far greater number of Muslims to parody than Jews, not because there are inherently worse people, but purely because there are far more of them. You couldn’t expect both groups to be parodied equally since the Muslim-to-Jew ratio is about 111:1. Now I’m not arguing that, in order to be fair, we should expect to see 111 satirical/offensive cartoons mocking Islam for every one mocking Judaism, but to expect parity is also unreasonable.
In fact, Glenn said something similar a couple of years ago when he was having that spat Harris: why didn’t he criticise Christianity, Islam and Judaism equally. However, Glenn wrote an article a couple of years previously decrying the attempt by some commentators to falsely equate the beliefs of vocal and provocative media personalities on the left and the right, and cited the March held in Washington by Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert as a particular case-in-point. The voices on the right were far more pathological and thus deserving of stronger condemnation.
Fair enough. But doesn’t anybody think that Glenn is committing the same crime here in asking that all religions be condemned and mocked equally? Obviously, textually speaking, the Old Testament contains far more barbaric ideas than the Quran, and per-head there probably are as many sectarian and misogynistic orthodox Jews as there are Salafi Muslims. But considering there are a far greater number of Muslims than Jews inhabiting a far greater number of countries, shouldn’t we expect to Islam being mocked more frequently?
Thoughts?
Sorry Glenn but simply showing your bias towards Jews is not the point here. When have the Jews slaughtered people because they were maligned in a cartoon? Your abject stupidity on this topic is beyond the pale.
Crushed it Glenn. Absolutely crushed it. It’s getting me all nostalgic for the good ol’ days.
Glenn, how very Nazi propaganda of you.
BTW Jews and Gays burned in the same ovens.
I concur with Barncat on the Douthat piece, which is anything but monolithic and unidirectional.
And, so as to make my position very clear, here’s what I published elsewhere yesterday :
The Charlie Hebdo that took over from Hara Kiri was indeed of anarchist South-Parkish (avant la lettre) inspiration. The Catholic Church and the French political establishment were its main targets. But it went bankrupt in 1981.
Ten years later, it was reborn again, but with a different crew, under the financial umbrella of “Les Editions Kalachnikov” (a disturbingly premonitory name). At its head, a guy whose autocratic impulses would grow stronger by the year.
A manager who was in it for profit and fame rather than a rebel without a cause, he first got rid of most of the initial staff (who filed a lawsuit against him because they claimed the name of the newspaper was theirs). Those he kept became his subordinates : Cavanna, for instance, a (great) French writer of Italian descent who died last year, and was the prior version’s editor in chief, became a simple columnist.
Unhappy with the way things went, 5 or 6 new contributors/cartoonists also left the boat in the late nineties, when they weren’t simply fired for repeatedly opposing the new “chef”.
Anti-clericalism remained on the agenda, but Catholicism was slowly replaced by Islam as of 2002, as the paper was growing more and more politicized. At the time of the Danish cartoons, in late 2005/early 2006, Islam became somewhat of an obsession, not only in the cartoons, but also in op-eds and other articles. The “chef” had also taken the filthy habit, shared by many neocons, of silencing his opponents by accusing them of being anti-Semites. And, for years, he would also remain a staunch adversary of the internet, that “lawless epicentre of rumors and anonymous calomny”. By that time, Charlie Hebdo’s newsroom had its fair share of pseudo-left-wing imperialists.
Mid-2009, the “chef”, who had grown close to the Muslim-bashing right-wing president, went on to manage a major public radio station, where his first deed was to fire two of the most controversial editorialists.
Charb took over as Charlie Hebdo’s editor in chief, but the newspaper was having trouble remaining afloat financially. Hence, some argue, the repeated (cheap) provocations against Islam it engaged into (whose goal may have been to sell more paper), even before the 2011 bombing.
This said, although the Jewish religion was very rarely subjected to criticism, the Israeli State and government were, particularly during last summer’s attack on Gaza.?
_____________
Regarding GG’s piece :
“But this week’s defense of free speech rights was so spirited that it gave rise to a brand new principle: to defend free speech, one not only defends the right to disseminate the speech, but embraces the content of the speech itself. Numerous writers thus demanded: to show “solidarity” with the murdered cartoonists, one should not merely condemn the attacks and defend the right of the cartoonists to publish, but should publish and even celebrate those cartoons.”
One simple question : if a newspaper or an individual, say a blogger, is posting external material on his own platform, does that necessarily imply they agree with it, in GG’s opinion ? And if so, wouldn’t refusing to publish said material amount to a particularly repressed form of puritanism ? I know the issue raised by people like Chait isn’t limited to that aspect, but that’s the question I’m asking myself.
“Some of the cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo were not just offensive but bigoted, such as the one mocking the African sex slaves of Boko Haram as welfare queens (left).”
Quite frankly, the second-degree irony is pretty obvious here, isn’t it ? I mean, you can call Charlie Hebdo journalists a lot of things, but they certainly aren’t (weren’t) proponents of any radical right-wing anti-welfare agenda, far to the contrary, nor were they anti-feminists. What they did here was precisely the contrary of what Glenn seems to blame them for, namely mocking conservatives who accuse immigrants of seeking asylum in France only for the social advantages it would offer them.
This mix of social progressivism and borderline “islamophobia” (which I prefer to call miso-islamism, from the Greek word ‘misein’, to hate, rather than ‘phobos’, fear) is what makes (made) them so typically French. A tip to the TI staff : Charlie Hebdo is neither a print version of Fox News, nor an equivalent of Le Monde diplomatique.
“[I]t is simply not the case that Charlie Hebdo “were equal opportunity offenders.” Like Bill Maher, Sam Harris and other anti-Islam obsessives, mocking Judaism, Jews and/or Israel is something they will rarely (if ever) do.”
Untrue : there were numerous cartoons mocking the Israeli propaganda machine during the latest assault on Gaza. Though obsessive of Islam, people like Charb had in no way reached Bill Maher, even less Sam Harris, levels : advocating preemptive nuclear strikes was not part of their toolbox… As for people like Cabu, they really were kindness, dedication and altruism impersonated, and they sure didn’t take themselves too seriously.
“Is it time for me to be celebrated for my brave and noble defense of free speech rights? Have I struck a potent blow for political liberty and demonstrated solidarity with free journalism by publishing blasphemous cartoons?”
Far more daring would have been, i.m.h.o., to publish only the cartoons, without context, for the readers’ critical thinking to dissect and comment. But you can’t do that, can you ? I mean : one isn’t able to do that at present, for critical thinking isn’t doing so well on the stock exchange. There must always be a guide showing the right path, musn’t there ?…
We’ll aren’t you a courageous butt packer.
I’m sure the Jewish community is sending over gunmen to shoot you full of holes and saw your head off right now.
Oh, wait they don’t, so it isn’t courage it just being a annoying little twerp.
Go play with your boy toy until you grow up.
The obvious difference is that no Jews are going to kill you for publishing these. That’s so obvious I feel like it doesn’t even bear mentioning.
1- The passage about Charlie not criticizing Jews or Israel (!!!) suggests that you have never actually read Charlie Hebdo. Which makes your entire piece ethically bankrupt IMO.
2- Contrarily to a rising narrative in the supposedly “liberal” Anglosphere, Charlie Hebdo was a rabidly left-wing, anti-racist, *pro-immigrant* journal. What Charlie did was staunchly defending Arabs (and Blacks, and, yes, ethnic Jews) while relentlessly bashing Islam (and Christianity, and Judaism – again, contrarily to your ignorant portrayal).
Your conflation of their cartoons with actually racist (read: ethnic-based) anti-semitic cartoons shows that even the puerile, scatology-happy Charlie cartoonists were somehow more sophisticated than you in this regard.
To conclude: next time you feel the need to piss on people’s graves, at least wait until they’re buried. Who knows, that might even give you time to actually read what they actually wrote.
Holocaust jokes and satire?
I think they’re a GAS.
Now if I’m murdered for having made that joke, THEN you have a comparable statement to decry… otherwise you’re really stretching here.
It makes me want to vomit to hear Obama tout the virtues of freedom of expression after his DOJ tapped into the phone records of almost 100 AP reporters. Everyone likes free speech unless it’s turned on them and their misdeeds. How many American whistle blowers are rotting in American jails, and how many people have been ruined for trying to tell the truth?
Right on ! It’d be one more disgrace if he doesn’t pardon Manning before leaving office.
I think most people here don’t really get the point (maybe because they are americans, and have a specific “view of things” ?)
The point is not about satiric/comic/cartoon ways, but that it is not OK to kill for it !
The catholic church also killed thousands (or was it millions ?) some centuries ago (for saying the earth isn’t the center of all, or the “witches”, or muslims (!!!),….)
But over the centuries even tese people got the point that it is wrong … and i can not remember that the masses were protesting about that killings “in the name of god” in that time… or even after….
And from a lot of comments here i see that israelis killing palestinians is “acceptable” for quite a few….which shows the same stupidness … but its even worse: the islamist killings are obviously the acts of a few fanatic/radical minds…. but the killings in palestine or irak, afghanistan, africa, southamerica, ukraine and elsewhere with “support” of the us forces are widely accepted !!! or is america as a whole a fanatc/radical “group” ? or is it just the government ?
I really don’t blame you personally,… you are just manipulated. But in the same way these fighters are manipulated ! Only in a bigger number ;-)
I watched an interesting doc from the BBC last night… which explained a lot of it for me… maybe you should have a look to get an idea whats happening to you:
info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self
doc: http://vimeo.com/85948693
PS: its a 4 part doc, so take your time (about 4 hrs in total)
I think Glenn has misinterpreted the Charlie Hebdo cartoon of the kidnapped girls. I’ve read several analyses of it from French left-wing individuals who have noteed it to be a mashup of two separate topical headline issues in France: 1. The kidnapping/rape/forced marriages of young girls by Boko Haram; 2. The right wing attack on, and resulting decrease in French welfare payments. The point of the cartoon is to mock and criticize the right wing and Boka Harem. The cartoonists at CH are/were left of center and pro-immigrants rights. Greewald totally misses a common fixture in the satirical themes of not only CH but the French press in general.
Overall, I think Greenwald’s piece misses the most important point — 12 human beings were deliberately slaughtered by two Muslim fanatics who were offended by their drawings. And now, of course, addition human beings were robbed of their lives for the crime of shopping or working in a Jewish market. That’s the only thing that matters. Anything else is pure obfuscation.
Funny, given that the pictures I saw of US publications today only pixelated Mohammed on the Charlie Hebdo covers but not the hook-nosed jew.
Jew suis Glenn Greenwald.
Oooops… I am SOOOO sorry.
Obviously, I meant to write: JE SUIS GLENN GREENWALD.
Will we ever get the ability to edit our posts?
yeah,… i miss that function too ;-)
but at least its possible to insert links… i know pages where even that is not possible !
And I’m even more happy that this website is not flashing in 10 mio colours and that there are no additional frames with ads ;-)
Be happy about the things you have, not be unhappy about the things you don’t have, right ?
Edit function would be good, or at least a “preview” so we can see if we smeared a hyperlink or quote tag all over our post, before putting it up on permanent display.
They can’t afford it. 250 million dollars only go so far these days.
Ever heard of a WordPress? This isn’t a fashion statement, ” “. Hi Intercept! Long time no see.
Arth, you are obviously suffering from mental illness. It probably comes from hanging out with white supremacists in a hole in Idaho–waiting for the world to end.
I think he scored up his spooling. Spell check doesn’t flag everything.
At least Glenn got to get all of his anti-semitism out under this ruse. Good boy. Keep up the hate down there on the low road. Didn’t see any phaggot cartoons in there.
“why is violence by Muslims the most menacing one?” This is a laughable line, one that equates the right of a people (and b/c it’s Greenwald, as always his main focus is on Jews) to non-violently respond to offensive materials with the “right” of Muslims to respond with violence and murder to cartoons that offend them. Is he really implying that a non-violent expression of protest to an anti-Israel cartoon is on par with a fire-bombing or murder? No one is saying there should be zero consequences or backlash to publishing a provocative or offensive cartoon (in a free society, people can respond to whatever offends them as they see fit, just as people are free to publish the offending materials) – what people are saying is that the response should NOT be violence and death, which consistently, only one group of people tends to resort to. This is what separates civilized, modern society from, well, the other kind. Greenwald is essentially saying “if Jews can lodge a non-violent protest against cartoons that offend them, then why can’t Muslims murder and kill to protest cartoons that offend them?” Only in Greenwald’s twisted worldview could this even be thought of.
“With all due respect to the great cartoonist Ann Telnaes, it is simply not the case that Charlie Hebdo “were equal opportunity offenders.” Like Bill Maher, Sam Harris and other anti-Islam obsessives, mocking Judaism, Jews and/or Israel is something they will rarely (if ever) do. If forced, they can point to rare and isolated cases where they uttered some criticism of Judaism or Jews, but the vast bulk of their attacks are reserved for Islam and Muslims, not Judaism and Jews. ”
Please, for the love of God, READ EVEN ONE COPY OF THE GODDAMN JOURNAL BEFORE SAYING STUFF THAT IS OBVIOUSLY AND FACTUALLY WRONG!!
From Mondoweiss:
Media obsesses over ‘free speech’ in Charlie Hebdo case while ignoring Israeli targeting of journalists
I am sure that Hollande will change his mind re supporting the Palestinians, and just to make sure:
Because the Jewish community is allegedly threatened, Israel is to come to the rescue of the kosher grocery store. This was confirmed in an official statement by the Israeli government.
In this regard, Prime minister Netanyahu has confirmed the dispatch of an Israeli Police SWAT team unit which will be working in liaison with its French counterparts. The Israeli SWAT unit “specialising in siege situations and rescues is on standby ready to travel to Paris to assist the French authorities resolve the siege of the kosher grocery store.” according to Haaretz
In addition to the Israeli SWAT team, Prime minister Netanyahu “has ordered Mossad to provide French officials for all the assistance they need in tackling the ongoing terror situation in and around Paris” (Daily Telegraph, emphasis added). What this suggests is that Mossad agents would be operating on French soil in partnership with France’s Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure formerly known as Le Deuxième Bureau.
According to Israel’s prime minister Netanhayu, (January 9)
“[the attacks on Charlie Hebdo and the Paris kosher grocery store] are a microcosm of of a greater battle against jihadists …
This is a global struggle. Bringing to justice the Paris murderers is just the beginning,…
And all of them seek to destroy our freedoms and to impose on all of us a violent, medieval tyranny. They might have different names, but all of them are driven by the same hatred and blood-thirsty fanaticism.”
They bomb churches in Iraq; they slaughter tourists in Bali; they rocket civilians from Gaza; and strive to build nuclear weapons in Iran…we have to fight these enemies of our common civilization” (quoted in Times of Israel, January 9, 2015)
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-attacks-on-charlie-hebdo-and-the-kosher-grocery-store-israels-mossad-to-the-rescue/5423715
Glenn Greenwald: The Italicized “that” in Douthat’s column was by far the biggest tell of what he was and wasn’t saying.
From the column (emphasis in original):
Douthat’s defense of blasphemy isn’t limited; his first principle is this: “The right to blaspheme (and otherwise give offense) is essential to the liberal order”. He’s only saying that blasphemy that provokes a violent reaction deserves an active defense because of the violent reaction: “If a large enough group of someones is willing to kill you for saying something, then it’s something that almost certainly needs to be said, because otherwise the violent have veto power over liberal civilization, and when that scenario obtains it isn’t really a liberal civilization any more”. If it’s true that only blasphemy directed at Islam puts one in danger of a violent response, that doesn’t justify an anti-Muslim reading of Douthat’s argument.
You disagree with Douthat and the others on the significance of the violent/non-violent response distinction:
So, why must you read an anti-Muslim bias into Douthat’s argument when it’s completely unnecessary?
How does that principle play out here:
“If a large enough group of someones is willing to kill you for saying something, then it’s something that almost certainly needs to be said”
A “large enough group” of Muslims didn’t kill the cartoonists. Two (that’s 2) people did. The Muslims in France are a disadvantaged minority. So I’m wondering, under this principle, why offending them would be a necessary step on the way to the rescue of liberal civilization.
Are you forgetting this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy
Also:
“It was Muslim leaders inciting other Muslims to commit deadly violence, …”
———-
I don’t know who these “Muslim leaders” were, but, at the time, my Danish contacts told me differently about the Danish Muslim leaders. I’m not suggesting who’s right and who’s wrong; I’m aware that there are in fact those “Muslim leaders” who exploit these things for their own political ends, and do incite violence.
The following by Digby might interest you; it’s long:
http://digbysblog.blogspot.ca/2015/01/we-need-to-do-nuance.html
“They presented a dossier containing the twelve cartoons from the Jyllands-Posten, false information and other images manipulated to indicate hate.”
I don’t get your point, “they presented …false information…manipulated” ya da ya da… many died. Are you sure you are not describing the Colin Powel UN presentation before the US Iraq invasion?
My question still is:
A “large enough group” of Muslims didn’t kill the cartoonists. Two (that’s 2) people did. The Muslims in France are a disadvantaged minority. So I’m wondering, under this principle, why offending them would be a necessary step on the way to the rescue of liberal civilization.
The false information was introduced by Danish imams. So, in the best case for your argument, it was Muslim leaders inciting other Muslims to commit deadly violence, and the Muslim leaders were acting in response to the cartoons. Maybe you want to find someone who says the violence wasn’t really in response to the cartoons (like Juan Cole did with the current case).
Glenny, now you’ve done it!
If we told you once, we told you a thousand times! No more provocative articles!
That’s not the way we raised you!
Your father and I are very upset!
Now, go to your room and think what you’ve done!
And, another thing: No TV or the Internet, for TWO weeks!
Imagine having a kid like GG….completely out of control or fear…the parents would go grey prematurely.
Imagine having a kid like GG….completely out of control or fear…the parents would go grey prematurely.
First, I condemn your use of anti-Semitic cartoons here. I condemn Islamophobic cartoons as well. I understand you were making a point, but neither one is acceptable.
I have a feeling that Western history will, one day, view the sentiments of today much the way we now view our treatment of the Japanese during WWII. Oops, cringe, well that was a bit hysterical, wasn’t it? Security threats are very real and should of course be treated seriously, but we’re far more tolerant of kids grabbing dad’s gun and shooting up their school and violence in impoverished neighborhoods, so I don’t think our visceral reaction to such things, as a society, is based entirely on overall level of violence / threat. What we’re protecting, more or less, is our narrative and our right to it. The Catch-22 being that liberal Western society’s claims to the moral high ground tends to be based on tolerance and acceptance or at least not suppression of diverse points of views. So I do think it’s important to vigorously defend that point in these discussions, because otherwise we’re arguing our position from a nonsensical place.
As to freedom of speech and taboos – that is an interesting topic that I haven’t pondering fully yet. I’m relatively certain, for example, that we do not apply the same standards of free speech to rapists, child molesters, sadists, and so on. So there is no doubt always a wall where you can’t claim 100% consistent application, and probably there should be. But in this case you are comparing freedom of speech in relation to two different religions, specifically, so presumably we would expect standards to be similar for both (although to be fair to both groups, I think your cartoons above should have featured things like Yaweh and Moses, since there is a difference between going after religious symbols vs. the adherents of a religion).
In refer to your last phrase inside parenthesis, i’ve written a comment about an hour ago but don’t know why still not appears:
There’s confusion in the original post between blasphemy and racism. All those cartoons Grennwald posted are racists, not blasphemous. Blasphemy is: “Profane speaking of God or sacred things; impious irreverence.” And i think this is absolute necessary in these moments.
Blasphemy is about ideas, not people. It has no victim except prejudice.
George Carlin’s gig on religion is pure blasphemy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE , but there’s not a single drop of racism in it.
It’s pretty unfair to not mark the difference between mocking superstition and produce hateful stereotypes (which in some cases Charlie Hebdo did, for example in Boko Haram’s slavery girls) on religious people.
We Westerners also have a right to defend our culture. France has the right to maintain its culture as well. What that means in this context is well-captured by The New Yorker:
Attacking Charlie Hebdo is to attack an icon of the Enlightenment and heir to Voltaire. The aggressively secular French have no Mecca; Charlie Hebdo is their sacred space, physical, spiritual and intellectual.
um .. can we trade cultural icons? Or at least the oevre represented by said icons? I prefer the enlightening rather than the endarkening …
No.
I’m very partial to the Enlightenment, and to Voltaire. Of the Roman Catholic Church, he wrote: “Ecrasez l’infame,” translated by many as: “Crush the infamous thing.”
My wack-job Catholic parents warned me that Voltaire and the philosophes were heretical demons whom it was sinful to read. I read them anyway, and the liberation has been beautiful.
“Attacking Charlie Hebdo is to attack an icon of the Enlightenment and heir to Voltaire.”
I disagree with your characterization of Voltaire’s satire vs. Charlie Hebdo’s “satire”. Voltaire was satirizing powerful religious doctrines which permeated not only governments but also everyday thought of that period. It was a *self-critical* look at the society of that time. Can Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons be characterized in the same light? Are Muslims the dominant political and philosophical power in French culture? Charlie Hebdo has every right to draw blasphemous cartoons. But let’s not kid ourselves. It’s not Enlightenment to demonize a largely powerless, uninfluential minority population for the problems of France. It’s similar to many Americans who blame illegal immigrants for lack of jobs but ignore how their favorite “free-market” corporations outsource jobs, destroy workers protection and in many cases create the poverty/violence which leads to people leaving their home countries to come to the US. Voltaire’s satire called on French culture to look in the mirror and see its problems. Charlie Hebdo just poked fun at people which many French people consider outsiders.
“They hate us for our freedoms.” – George W. Bush
*roll*
Why do you suppose it is that the vast majority of Western media are not publishing the Mohammed cartoons from Charlie Hebdo? (Hint: Glenn concedes a lot of it is FEAR.)
It’s never that simple Mona. The press is suppressed for a variety of reasons, in a variety of contexts. It’s not always based in fear. And to the degree that it is based in fear? You have a right to call those people cowards. But I don’t understand what your expectations are beyond that.
No, it really is that simple. As Jeff Zucker of CNN said:
Everyone knows that is why the vast majority of Western outlets are not publishing Charlie Hebdo’s blasphemous Mohammed cartoons; it is why virtually none of them published the Danish Cartoons in ’06.
It is simple. As simple as fear in response to a terror threat.
Baquet plainly disagrees. Is he a coward?
Which is as individual and personal as it gets. What are you suggesting is the answer? Shame? Have at it.
Likely; he has been before in other contexts. And a liar.
lol, fair enough.
You need to stop hyperventilating and start thinking. You are talking about things you know nothing about.
I bet before this week you’ve never heard (much less read) of Charlie Hebdo.
Saying that Charlie Hebdo was an icon of the Enlightenment is beyond stupid. Saying that it was ‘sacred space, physical, spiritual and intellectual’ is not-know-where-to-look-at idiotic.
I have been a reader of Charlie Hebdo and Le Canard Enchaine for years so I know what I am talking about.
Your ridiculous assertions are just the typical American unthinking lack of sense of proportion, the one that allows you to say things like
“they hate us for our freedoms” with a straight face.
For a change, you should take some time off and think before you write. THAT is something that D’alembert, Diderot, and Baron D’holbach, would surely recommend (and also, before you spout about the french enlightenment you might consider ACTUALLY reading it)
“The aggressively secular French have no Mecca”
I think you very much misunderstand “secularism” in France to mean a place of ethnic/religious neutrality. Head scarves are banned in France, just as they are obligatory in Afghanistan. What French opponents of multiculturalism really mean is “secular Christian”. That is why all the consternation about Islam. They are not worried about the compatibility between secularism and Islam, The French Islamophobes, are worried about preserving “their” Christian Franch culture, because you know, France belongs to the Christian white guys, and not those other French citizens who just happen to hold French passports but are kinda weird.
You very much are mistaken to think I misunderstand. I spent much of yesterday explaining that the French are hyper, aggressively secular. As you imply, they enforce their militant secularism, and one ought to keep that in mind when considering whether France is the nation to which one wants to move.
“You very much are mistaken to think I misunderstand”
No Mona, it is you, who are very much mistaken, to think I am mistaken, to think you misunderstand.
I’ll try to make it simple. Imagine…
French Catholics wear blue. French Muslims wear green. Now imagine that the government says that to be “secular” all must wear blue…to be equal, to be secular. (it’s just a coincidence that blue is the Catholic colour, you see)
Now instead of colour, France went after head scarves, which coincidentally are less important to Catholics than Muslims. I don’t know, are kippahs banned by the US government? It would be the same thing. I don’t think Americans would say banning kippahs is “secularism” would they? Probably “anti-semitism” would be the first thing to come to mind in America.
You are wrong. France, ever since 1789, has been a hotbed of secular anti-religious sentiment. For better than a century it often happened that a too-large crucifix around the neck got one expelled from a French school. A few years ago, a Sikh male was expelled for his turban.
I strongly disapprove of these laws, and am glad we in the U.S. have a First Amendment that prohibits them. Nevertheless, France has a very hostile view of religion and public displays of religiosity. To understate, it would be unhinged to suggest this fierce secularism is a response to Muslims; such an ahistorical position is wholly untenable.
It’s their culture, and if you want to live there, it is what you are stuck with — obsessive secularism.
“France has the right to maintain its culture as well” by forcefully taking away the rights of *other* people within it to live by the lifestyles of their choice? Totalitarian secularism?
“…France is the nation to which one wants to move”, you apparently want to move Mona, its up to you. How about a French wanting to live according to a religion other than secularism (as defined by the current majority), in a non-marginalized respectful way?
What of free-speech if someone expresses questions on the extent of events given in the official history of Hitler’s onslaught on the Jews (holocaust denial that is)?
You’re right, but ‘Judeo-Christian’ would be closer to the truth…
Honestly, I think that the “anti-Muslim” component of the head scarf ban is a misdirection. Oklahoma just passed a general ban on concealing headwear that includes hoodies, but not headscarves. Sure, maybe they’re more afraid of blacks than Muslims, but honestly… I think that everywhere from Tulsa to Paris, the spies want to clearly establish their right to allow nothing to conceal your face from their camera recognition anywhere you go. Maybe that’s for tracking terrorists/dissidents, or maybe the businessmen have dreams that if they ever catch you buying a $2 mini-bottle of soda at a convenience store, they can double the price at any supermarket you go to from then on because they know you’re not that fussy. Or both. But it’s not really about religion; religion is just an obstacle to it.
I’m not saying that in particular played a decisive part in the minds of these madmen, but you have to be aware of the constant-Muslim-bashing agenda the previous French president implemented.
– Is hallal food in school restaurants compatible with France’s secularism ?
– Should France tolerate Muslim women demanding specific time slots be booked for them in public swimming pools ?
– Can a Muslim woman refuse to be treated by a male physician in a public hospital ?
– How could France cope with polygamy ?
– Shouldn’t France ban the burqa ?
– Isn’t it legitimate for French high schools to ban girls who insist on wearing the hijab ?
– Is it really France’s duty to build new mosques ? And, if so, are minarets compatible with the French landscape ?
– Is it normal that, where there is no mosque, Islam worshippers are praying in the streets ?
– Should every French kid abide by Muslim customs ? Can France accept that Muslim kids steal then throw away a white kid’s donut during the Ramadan period ? (I kid you not !)
– Why do Arabs (and Blacks) have the highest levels of incarceration ? What could explain their higher level of criminality ?
– Can the Muslim way of life be reconciled with the French lifestyle ?
Month after month after month after month, these pseudo-vital debates were instilled into French society by the highest figures of the right-wing Parisian political establishment and relayed into the media by some of the most influential intellectuals and columnists, who’ve all been carrying on their crusade till now. Nuanced as they are, the media summoned the usual archetypes : gangsta rappers, a radical cleric living with four or five unofficial wives, etc. The minister of the Interior was caught on camera making racist comments like : “one Muslim is fine, but when there are many of them, things are getting out of hand”. Radical Christians and secularists alike started organizing folkloric events like porc-only barbecues.
And, as the cherry on an indigestible pie, the president himself launched a huge national debate (in the media, but also through town hall meetings) about “national identity”, leaving no doubt about who it was effectively aimed at.
Knowing there wasn’t at the time a single MP of Arabic descent in Parliament (Now, there’s one…), to my knowledge, and not a single colored person, knowing also that the media pundits were more than overwhelmingly white, I think it’s fairly understandable some people, who were model law-abiding citizens prior to that,started snapping, albeit symbolically, don’t you ?
That’s the schizophrenic context in which the Charlie Hebdo offices were bombed, in late 2011.
Now, two months ago, the most prominent right-wing journalist stated the country was inevitably heading towards civil war because there’s a people within French society that’s refusing to assimilate to French customs (for instance, by refusing to give their children Christian names !). His conclusion was that, however unlikely it seems right now, history being full of surprises, millions of French Muslims might be leaving the country sooner or later, in the same way Germans who had been living in Hungary for decades, if not centuries, massively fled to their ‘heimat’ after WWII, before the iron curtain fell. Ring a bell ?…
Well, that’s about as fine a piece of writing as I’ve seen here, above or below the Comments tab, so I can’t help but see what you mean. It’s frustrating in that a few of these things are clearly wrong, a few are clearly OK (pork barbeques), and quite a few really require a nitpicking philosophical analysis of what the role and organization of a school or a public pool in a society is. I have a bit of a mindless prejudice that the French are supposed to be good philosophers … they should be leading by example on issues like that, not pandering between extremes.
But this was far from an exercise in philosophy,rather a deliberate attempt to politically stigmatize one particular community. I formulated these issues as questions, but they weren’t, actually; these were all negative statements, and most of the topics (the pool thing, hallal food, polygamy, the donut scandal, the burqa, Muslim women insisting on being treated by female physicians) were turned into generalizations despite the fact they were always based on a few isolated cases.
One might argue pork barbecues are ok. They might even be seen as a form of expression. By God, pork barbecues fall under the 1st amendment ! And, after all, the hygienic reasons which historically motivated the ban on pork in both Islam and Judaism are a thing of the past, aren’t they ? So, one might say this ban is outdated in modern society. But that’s not the question : these initiatives were destined to send a clear message : no Muslims AND no Jews allowed at WiCaF (white Catholic French) parties.
You might also argue secularism requires pupils to look the same. After all, isn’t that the very condition of social equality ? Hence banning the hijab. But is it preferable to let a girl with a headscarf get a public education, or to force her into the arms of a private Coranic school ? And what about distinctions between expensive and cheap clothes, which indicate class disparities ? Should all pupils wear a uniform again ? The possibility has been raised, and some mayors even decided to go for it.
You might also argue banning the burqa is the right thing for a Republic to do, even if only a handful of women are wearing it : in addition to the potential security problems it might cause (Neither the police nor social services are able to identify the person.), it might be seen as a degrading outfit underlying male gender superiority. But, if such a ban is imposed (and it was !), what’s more likely : will the husband all of a sudden allow his wife to come out dressed in jeans or wearing a skirt, or will he “lock her up” at home ?
The same question applies regarding some’s refusal to see a male physician : will they agree to it all of a sudden, or will these women simply resort to unsafe underground methods ?
These are all battles of principles, and indeed food for philosophic thinking, but never were they treated as such. It’s as if a new (soft) Inquisition was born. And the fact many intellectuals were more than eager to collaborate is a disgrace in itself.
In the following video, you’ll see how a debate in a secular college was brutally interrupted by protesters who were fed up with the burqa symbol used as a means to vilify the Muslim community as a whole.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NjjkR1WFOc
Who was the speaker that night ? A Charlie Hebdo “journalist”…
Alas for reasons of language I have no idea what’s going on in the video; I support the right of people to protest but also the right of the original speakers to be heard. While this one is obvious, that people have a right to see the presentation, such basic questions of the allocation of common or commonly held space are at the root of many of these issues, such as reserving time at the public pool. The issue of whether funerals should have a zone of protection from protests like the Westboro Baptist Church is the same. We need to evaluate the origin and justification of private property, for example in a Georgist sense. If ten thousand people have access to a pool, and one wishes to swim only by himself, how often can he reserve the pool for his own use? Eventually you can build up a theory by which the nudists, swim teams, artists, even the parents of young children whose impact may require a special chlorination and filter can all be worked out in a mathematical way, so that anyone can point to the time apportioned and say that it is at least approximately fair.
All I was trying to point out is that, if indeed some of these debates might have a philosophical value, the fact they were all aimed at one particular community for no apparent reason other than political gain, and based only on a series of fringe cases made them look like repeated psychological torture to the people concerned. It was impossible, at the time, to turn one’s TV or radio on, or to open one’s newspaper without being submerged with what amounted to a new form of brainwashing.
As for the video, it shows a clash between extremes. I agree with your statement about the implicit basic rule of any debate, namely listening to one another. But even public debates have become so format-based no real contradictory discussion can ever emerge anymore.
The leader of the protestors, who was an assistant professor at the time and got expelled following the incident, had requested to be able to oppose the lady’s arguments on stage. The organizers didn’t allow it. So, he and a few of his friends decided to stage that protest instead.
What exactly did they protest against ? Aside from the fact the “debate” turned out to be more of a tribune for the speaker than anything else, he expressed his rage at people like the lady-speaker more than often depicting not only Muslim extremists, but Islam and Muslims
in general, as having a hidden agenda of submission for Europe. Among other things, she wrote an article called “The War For Eurabia” in which, contrary to what she’s claiming on stage, she managed to blur the lines between Islam and Islamic extremism, without ever tackling the role of Western invasions and bombings in the radicalization process. He was also stressing the fact marginal issues like the burqa ban were nothing but diversions deliberately orchestrated by a cynical political establishment, supported by pseudo-intellectuals like her.
Now, I’m not saying this was a black-and-white confrontation. It wasn’t : the guy himself has a huge ego, and a few issues of his own, for instance regarding homosexuality. But it’s undeniable the lady isn’t famous for her intellectual rigorousness. Among other blunders, she stated on French TV 6,000,000 French Jews had been deported to the concentration camps during WWII, a statement she never corrected.
The evening of the debate, she immediately accused the protestors of being far-right-wingers, which was completely absurd. The ironic thing is that she herself is often quoted by far-right bloggers and activists : Pamela Geller, for instance, quoted her as saying Islamic scholar Tariq Ramadan is a jihadist in disguise.
Well-respected French Geopolitics professor Pascal Boniface (who specializes in the Middle East) said of her she is a fraud. Others revealed her connections to a network of French neocons. In other words, she’s an ideologue, not a thinker, and she was very vocal on many of the topics I mentioned, but never in any philosophical way, rather as a secularist pasionaria moved by the fantasy of an Islamic sword of Damocles hanging over Europe.
As many others in French media, she uses and abuses of false anti-Semitism accusations against her opponents, and also labels anyone who, on any given subject, vaguely suggests the official narrative is perhaps a little too simplistic a conspiracy theorist.
I can’t say for sure she was still a Charlie hebdo contributor at the time of the debate, but she worked there for several years. Not every (former) Charlie Hebdo journalist shares her views, but some do. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, none of those who were killed…
We’ll always have Paris.
You concede “French Culture” doesn’t include those who though born and bred Frenchman and women but have darker skin and follow Islam. If that is t racism I don’t know what is.
You’ll note that one of the cartoons at issue *actually has* an unpleasant depiction of Jews (the big-nosed Chasid in the “Intouchables” cartoon). There is just no real risk in being violently attacked for a cartoon that is critical of Israel or even anti-Semitic.
I think a key difference must exist between ‘I am with Charlie’ and ‘I am Charlie’.
You’re a fucking genius, Glenn. This is your J’accuse.
Consider this hypothetical chain of events:
1 Anti-Semitic cartoonists publishes drawing depicting the minority Jewish community as a virus that should be exterminated.
2 Violent Jewish extremist kills cartoonist.
3 Free speech defenders republish the anti-Semitic drawing.
A cartoonist is dead and anti-Semitism is spread. Who wins from this dynamic? Surely not the Jewish community?
…and as if on cue:
Paris shootings lead to firebomb attacks on French mosques
Grenades thrown at mosque in Le Mans and shots fired at Muslim prayer hall in Narbonne
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11332467/Paris-shootings-lead-to-firebomb-attacks-on-French-mosques.html
It makes me wonder, when free speech activists, who are keen on the principle of spreading hate speech, and are trying to prove that they won’t be intimidated by the all powerful Imams of France, have common cause with violent bigots…maybe they should question what they are doing.
Problem with 2.- there are not significant collectives of violent Jewish extremists who would be offended by said cartoon such that murder would be condoned as a response to a racist cartoon. Nor Do over half the Jewish population in Israel believe death is an acceptable punishment for apostasy. Islam is a conservative religion. Most Muslims live in Muslim countries with horrible practices- and majority support for some form of sharia law. Islam as practiced by ordinary Muslims might be more benign, but Islam is not Judaism… hence when you hear that Charlie Hebdo who is racist toward Jews, Muslims, et al was attacked by terrorists, your first thought is Islamic extremism, not radical Judaism.
Thank you for putting so coherently what I so clumsily tried to express to some of my students yesterday. I will print this and share it with them. Thank you. Thank you.
“I’m hoping this week’s celebration of free speech values will generate widespread opposition to all of these long-standing and growing infringements of core political rights in the west, not just some.”
“Defending free speech is always easy when you like the content of the ideas being targeted, or aren’t part of (or actively dislike) the group being maligned.”
“Violence spurred by Jewish and Christian fanaticism is legion, from abortion doctors being murdered to gay bars being bombed to a 45-year-old brutal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza due in part to the religious belief (common in both the U.S. and Israel) that God decreed they shall own all the land. And that’s all independent of the systematic state violence in the west sustained, at least in part, by religious sectarianism.”
“One can defend free speech without having to publish, let alone embrace, the offensive ideas being targeted. But if that’s not the case, let’s have equal application of this new principle.”
Thank you for putting so coherently what I so clumsily tried to express to some of my students yesterday. I will print this and share it with them. Thank you. Thank you.
“I’m hoping this week’s celebration of free speech values will generate widespread opposition to all of these long-standing and growing infringements of core political rights in the west, not just some.”
“Defending free speech is always easy when you like the content of the ideas being targeted, or aren’t part of (or actively dislike) the group being maligned.”
“Violence spurred by Jewish and Christian fanaticism is legion, from abortion doctors being murdered to gay bars being bombed to a 45-year-old brutal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza due in part to the religious belief (common in both the U.S. and Israel) that God decreed they shall own all the land. And that’s all independent of the systematic state violence in the west sustained, at least in part, by religious sectarianism.”
“One can defend free speech without having to publish, let alone embrace, the offensive ideas being targeted. But if that’s not the case, let’s have equal application of this new principle.”
I get what Greenwald is saying, but most of us to openly criticize the lunacy that is Islam, also point out the lunacy that is Christianity, Judaism and any other group of people who value faith over reason. Pointing out threats against the Dixie Chicks, and gay bars being firebombed, is simply proving the point that RELIGION is the problem. It just so happens that in 2015, Islam is used to justify violence more than others. I agree with the comment above; Greenwald is so worried about being politically correct, that he is allowing logic to walk out the door. And no, I don’t consider a cartoon of Muhammad blasphemous, and I’m tired of being told I must respect and take seriously people of faith. Do I wish them harm? No. Do I wish them to make religion illegal? No. Do I wish that we live in a world that is free from being influenced by religion in the public sphere? Absolutely. An adult who thinks Goldilocks and the Three Bears is based on historical events would be laughed out of Congress or any other position of power, and so should people who believe man-made texts about man-made Gods are anything more than an ancient fairy tale.
@ Glenn Greenwald,
You’ve hit a lot of home runs over the years with your writing Glenn. But in my humble opinion this is right up there with the top two or three best pieces you’ve ever written.
Well done.
Ditto, rr. Very inspiring. It makes me want to join the fray and attempt some political writing. Illustrated.
Wow. And, yes.
So you believe that the depiction of sex slaves as welfare queens represented an actually espoused view of the magazine? Does that seem likely to you? It is obviously a parody of right-wing stupidity. Or maybe I’m biased by having some actual knowledge of this publication.
The insane Christians are always viewed as ‘insane’. The insane Muslims are viewed as ‘Muslims’.
Brilliant.
It is beyond cavil that Glenn Greenwald is the most articulate, principled and courageous advocate of civil liberties in the world today.
yah, I wonder why… Greenwald, any thoughts on exactly why it is that they allow you in particular to run your mouth so loud?(as opposed to the pile of bodies under the rug). guess they calculated the end result was still a benefit to them.
there’s 100% censorship over here, it’s plain as day. he posts a bunch of anti-“semitic” propaganda…. You have trouble finding all the anti-r1b cartoons greenwald?
“you have trouble finding all the anti-r1b cartoons greenwald”
and he complains there’s no anti-jewish cartoons in the west ~as if we haven’t seen a hundred times as many of those in our lifetimes than anything else.
#AllScum #HillaryClinton #JohnMcCain #ISisUS OWN mouths #US Senate Funds #IS #AlCIAda https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOGK57xs5Ro
#1 Google Result: Boston Treason, 4 Articles https://edwardmd.wordpress.com/category/boston-treason/
63 Drills Since 93 Where ‘the Drill’ = Actual Terrorist Attack: More US Drill Death in Waco Explosion – Drill Stops for Reality, Again https://edwardmd.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/more-us-drill-death-in-waco-drill-stops-for-reality-again/
As for the reference above to David Brooks, the University of Illinois reference was to a 2010 case involving an adjunct professor. Brooks’ reference to it is careless and a sloppy if-it-happened-once-it’s-the-rule, offhand, one-sentence mention. I’m not able to find where the instructor or his Christian legal friends made much of a case of it.
Anyway, Brooks’ column was more of a hoity-toity dislike of offensive, or what he calls puerile, speech (see, e.g., reference to the kids’ table). It’s a very white-glove way of distinguishing his oh-so-dignified status at NYT from the vulgar. It reminded me of Lily Tomlin’s Most Tasteful Lady schtick. To be fair, it is one of the odd tones in Justice Holmes’ famous dissent in Abrams v. U.S., in which the defendants drew 10 and 20 year sentences over two leaflets they scattered out a New York window. It’s reasoning that excuses speech because it’s puerile, de minimis, rather than what the defense should be: that if it’s said, it should be freely said.
That’s Brooks’s problem, not an offhand reference to some four-year-old incident. The encouragement, not just the tolerance, of free speech, even billingsgate, is a very recent and hard-won achievement in the US, and it’s worth grasping it — and not with white gloves.
More on David Brooks and the kids’ table.
http://www.salon.com/2015/01/09/david_brooks_has_a_bill_maher_problem_more_smug_sanctimonious_nonsense_from_nyts_laziest_columnist/
I was an admirer of Glenn Greenwald. I think him defending free speech and many more things he has done as a lawyer and journalist is admirable. But this article is cuckoo. And it changes my whole view of him and what he represents. I pointed this out on twitter by stating that the end-result of the premise in the article is flawed. To summarise it: although Mr. Greenwald has defended free speech and will continue to do so, he thinks the free speech of muslims has been much much more restricted than the free speech by westerners, be it christian, jews or atheist. So I pointed out that the article is flawed and badly researched. The only response I got by Mr. Greenwald was that I was a liar. Really? Does he live as a jew in Western Europe? Does he read Facebook or Twitter, even in languages he doesn’t normally read? Does he view Arab press, some also available in the West? Has he followed the #jesuiskouachi on twitter? If he had done all those things and responded in the way I expected of him he would have thought to himself: this article proves the opposite of what I intend. Mr. Greenwald wants to have free speech applied equally to all. I applaud him for that. I understand he has witnessed things that have shown him that free speech is not applied equally. But I think better of Mr. Greenwald. With a little bit of research, maybe talking to other jews who live as jews in Europe, not as an ordinary-looking westerner who might be something but he’s gay so ok and living a sunny well-to-do life in Rio, he would have come to the conclusion that this piece is an affront to those who feel literally (not just psychologically) threatened by the presence of a lot of muslims. He could have engaged me (and others) at least explaining the premise of the article a little better (at the least) That was obviously too difficult. Sometimes defending something means shutting up. Shutting up is also free speech sometimes!!! Which Mr. Greenwald should have thought about before publishing this article which basically allows thousands of my Muslim fellow-travelers to threaten and insult me and be proven that they are in the right, because free speech. Reality proves however over here that it’s not just speech but physical fact. Facts on the ground means I have to take their speech literally in my daily life. Yes, I have been attacked etc etc. I have one word left: obnoxious!!!!
Unfortunately the cartoons are weak, they are not hard hitting, ones with real bite.. You should’ve found really offensive ones.
Glenn, you make a very serious and fundamental omission in your framing: fear of death. You, and all Western writers and cartoonists, should publish the Mohammed cartoons for the reason that many sensibly fear to do so. To quote…Glenn Greenwald in February of 2006 about the Danish Cartoons: “As I’ve said before, I believe the press ought to publish those cartoons as a means of defending their right to publish ideas free of intimidation and attack.” If everyone does it, well, the religious freaks can’t get you all.
You and I — but especially I — go about the Internet spewing some of the most shocking attacks on Israel and its lobby one could hear, so it isn’t as tho either of us could be indicted for only having concern when speech is being attacked by Muslim fanatics. (I’ve been verily breathing fire over the Steve Salaita firing.) In our Western culture, the mocking of sacred figures has been a cherished act, one which assisted in throwing of the yoke of heavy church oppression. We can take a moment to defend our own culture as well.
Muslims rightly expect us to respect their culture; and if they want to live in our western countries they must also respect ours. Our culture includes Voltaire and the Enlightenment he contributed to; no prophet is sacred; or at least, the right to desecrate a prophet is more so.
Here here.
“they”, “ours”
‘clash of civilization’ rhetoric. sharpening the contradictions. hook line and sinker.
Mohamed Ghilan says it best.
Last I checked, murder is still illegal in the Enlightened West. No one is “free” to murder today, because of these attacks.
And anyone who intends to murder tomorrow, will intend to do so whether or not there is “solidarity” with racist speech. Because the etiology of this violence has nothing to do with “protected speech”, or any reified value system. Speech is and will remain protected by the law. Some speech more than others. But what the law won’t protect anyone from, in America or anywhere else, what it cannot protect, are the realities of humiliation within the human condition. It cannot protect us from the realities of empire, of racism, of alienation, and its attendant blowback. There is no such thing as “Negative Liberty”. No man is an island. We have the liberty to provoke that humiliation (do we ever). Murder is illegal. But it’s a deep set fallacy that assumes the human consequences of that humiliation are addressed by showing “solidarity” with it. On what Earthly body?
Yes. We have secular law and do not punish blasphemy. We do, in fact, have a culture, and so do they; it isn’t called “uniculturalism.”
If one finds it intolerable that blasphemy be not only tolerated but celebrated by some, then ours is not a culture in which one would want to live. The vast majority of Muslims have no such difficulties. But enough of them do that, ever since the Danish Cartoons episode, the threat of these extremist exceptions has caused pervasive self-censorship among our writers, journalists and cartoonists. That’s simply reality.
“Asking me to condemn the obviously condemnable presumes my basic moral code is in question.”
Yes.
Exactly.
Anyone who has read the Qu’ran would realize that Islam has no recognizable moral code when it comes to non-Muslims. Non-Muslims are essentially lower forms of life, and Muslims are free to oppress, enslave, sexually enslave and kill them with impunity.
“Muslims rightly expect us to respect their culture; and if they want to live in our western countries they must also respect ours.”
——
Actually, many Muslims living in the Muslim majority countries do not expect the West to respect their religions (there is no single Islam) or cultures (there’s no single ‘Muslim’ culture). They just want no interferences or meddling in their affairs. Many of them actually admire the West for its positive achievements.
As for those Muslims who live in the West, please consider this:
Many of them were born in the West. So they consider the Western countries of their births as their own, and it’s not that easy for them to migrate to the Muslim countries in which their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. were born. I hear congressman Keith Ellison’s ancestors came to America in the 1700s. Apparently, there were job opportunities for them there, and the ride on the ship was free.
Many, many, of them have adopted many Western ideas and cultural habits, while modifying their religions to match these Western cultural norms.
And, they are not only law-abiding good citizens, they are educated and contribute to their societies in many ways, just like their ancestors who migrated to the West legally.
And yes, they are all respectful of the “us” you refer to. Actually, they feel part of the “us”.
“…if they want to live in our western countries they must also respect ours.”
Wow Mona, you’ve really gone off the deep end. Surprised and disappointed.
It’s the “deep end” to observe that the U.S. is built on classically liberal values that include free speech rights, and that all who wish to live here must abide by those values? This is not a new position of mine.
It is a reality that Western media are cowering in fear of publishing cartoons Muslims deem blasphemous; a dozen Western journalists were just executed for violating this religious taboo; a taboo that’s been controlling Western media since 2006 at least. This is antithetical to our political order for our press to be suppressed by a small sector of religious fanatics. I won’t accept it; I will fight it. Whether the gun-toting fanatics are Catholic, Jews or an oppressed people like Muslims.
“Muslims rightly expect us to respect their culture.”
I would take out the word “rightly”. Islam is a cesspool of misogyny, paranoia and fascism. It’s not worthy of any respect whatsoever. I hear the complaints of so-called “moderate” Muslims and I have nothing against them as people. But there’s no way I could possibly say I respect their religion; we’ll simply have to agree to disagree.
very well put Mona….
You cannot compare ridiculing a belief system to ridiculing a group based on race, gender, or sexual orientation. A person can, after all, change his or her beliefs. For example, I may feel free to disagree with the government of Israel, or with some of the beliefs of Judaism, without being antisemitic. But the cartoons you posted about Jews and the media, or the representation of Jews as exhibiting unattractive and outsized physical traits (very much like the simian-looking images of Irish immigrants in the 19th century), are in fact racist. There is a huge difference. Religion MUST be fair game, for the same reason governments are, for the same reason corporations are. There is too much influence there. Ridicule is one of the most effective weapons we have against such power.
Is there any limit to FREEDOM OF SPEECH? I would like to answer my 6 yr old , any response is highly appreciated.
Yes, freedom of speech means freedom from the GOVERNMENT infringing on the speech. The limit is private property; you can only publish that which you own, or have been granted the right to publish by the owner, such as these comments on this site.
I already answered you after your other similar comment below. All others might feel compelled to add to that, but what I informed you of in answer to your other comment is really about all there is to say to you in regards to your question.
Thanks for teaching me first amendment of United States and I guess being American you think it is not limited to America alone but followed globally.
It should be, at least for Internet purposes.
as a private citizen, choose to allow your child to be a bigot or a thoughtful and respectful person.
What’s the point if society teaches him to be a thoughtless and disrespectful one
If you’re posting snark, you’re shitty at it. If you’re serious you are showing yourself to be a proudly irresponsible parent. That’s my final comment/reply to you. Best of luck to your six year old.
You can say whatever you want, after all acc to the first amendment of US you are entitled to have freedom of speech
The limit is personal taste, I guess. But I agree with you on this : negative nihilism is disrupting the whole game.
There’s a wonderful example to illustrate it : when the “Jada case” was made public (a teenage girl who was allegedly raped after her drink had been spiked), some morons came up with the brilliant idea to create a Twitter hashtag (#JadaPose) everyone was invited to use to take and post pictures of themselves mimicking the girl lying unconsciously on the floor. Some unknown third-category rapper also made a tune about it. Now, these people knew as little about the case as anyone at the time, which means they did this knowing very well a major crime may have been commited. Since their initiative is only considered as a comment on a crime, they cannot be sued for it, unless it amounts to a form of harassment or defamation.
A lot of the traditional landmarks which were ruling Western societies have disappeared during the past thirty or forty years, with such despicable amoral attitudes as a result. The whole challenge now is to be able to bring back some respect to human interactions, without resorting to patriarchal models of indoctrination.
In that regard, the anti-model of ruthless competition our so-called Western “values” are now based on needs to adapt drastically.
wouldn’t it have made more sense to post anti-christian or anti-western cartoons, to make this point? you just posted a pile of classic anti-middle eastern propaganda.
Sorry, overthrow, according to anti-Zionist narcissists like Greenwald, due to the existence in Israel, Jews worldwide deserve their fate.
Those 3 Jewish hostages killed in Paris today are just collateral damage for Israel’s actions. Muslims were justifiable in killing them much as they were “forced” to kill the cartoonists the day before.
Making shit up may amuse you, but you might want to go try that in a venue populated by American Idol fans. Folks at a level appropriate for your work.
You obviously have no idea how utterly ridiculous you make yourself spewing such childish nonsense. No one bothers to counter your comments, because no one takes you seriously –they just laugh and shake their heads.
So? He can post whatever he wants.
So? He can post whatever he wants.
Absolutely one of the best response in the current anti-muslim frenzy. Too bad this article is not on the front pages of the Newyork Times.
Next you should publish anti military cartoons. That would really make them have second thoughts about embracing offensive cartoons. They worship the military.
I truly wish we could post images.
Brilliant and totally OT response from Charlie Sacco on satire and it’s uses and abuses.
http://bit.ly/1IyVGuY
Thanks for sharing that Bill. An excellent reminder that zeitgeist matters.
Brilliant? Can’t really agree with you, given that his take off point was “thoughts about the nature of some of Charlie Hebdo’s satire” and those thoughts weren’t very deep thoughts at all. In fact they showed a thorough misunderstanding of Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons – if indeed Joe (not Charlie) Sacco had any real acquaintance with them at all. His “playing this game too” cartoon frames completely misrepresented “the nature” of Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons. Those frames were ludicrously unfunny and without point beyond an unflattering stereotypical depiction – something Charlie Hebdo’s weren’t at all (as many postings here have since made clear). In one frame Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons could and did address more than one aspect of an issue of Western social, cultural and humanitarian import at the same time, in particular referencing French cultural images and current affairs which as clearly eluded Sacco as they did Glenn. Charlie Hebdo provided thought-provoking cartoons which fulfilled the function satire has in a society with free speech and thereby – contrary to Sacco’s implied criticism of Charlie Hebdo – did contribute to Sacco’s desired aim of “figuring out how we fit in each other’s world”.
I tried to post this comment well over 10 hours ago and it hasn’t shown up, so I’m trying again:
Brilliant? Can’t really agree with you, given that his take off point was “thoughts about the nature of some of Charlie Hebdo’s satire” and those thoughts weren’t very deep thoughts at all. In fact they showed a thorough misunderstanding of Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons – if indeed Joe (not Charlie) Sacco had any real acquaintance with them at all. His “playing this game too” cartoon frames completely misrepresented “the nature” of Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons. Those frames were ludicrously unfunny and without point beyond an unflattering stereotypical depiction – something Charlie Hebdo’s weren’t at all (as many postings here have since made clear). In one frame Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons could and did address more than one aspect of issues of Western social, cultural and humanitarian import at the same time, in particular referencing French cultural images and current affairs which as clearly eluded Sacco as they did Glenn. Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons were thought-provoking and fulfilled the function satire has in a society with free speech and thereby – contrary to Sacco’s implied criticism of Charlie Hebdo – did contribute to Sacco’s desired aim of “figuring out how we fit in each other’s world”.
well, my comment has finally showed up after FOUR days! An inefficiency that has made it impossible to join the conversation in a useful manner.
I’m an atheist, so I have no dog in the religious fight. However, I am concerned about homicidal maniacs and a have a soft spot in my heart for civilization.
When you make fun of Muhammad, there are people who will riot and kill over it. Make fun of Jews or Christians, and you’ll get some disapproval from some…however, it will be peaceful disagreement.
Muslims have to join the 21st century (heck, I’d settle for the 19th century in the meantime), and stop acting like spoiled children when their Magic Man In The Sky is insulted. He is fake and meaningless, just like all other religions.
Interesting that the Jews in those cartoons are drawn with the stereotypical big noses. Do today’s cartoonists also draw pictures of blacks with big lips and shuffling feet?
Yes, Charlie Hebdo did, on many occasions.
“Did you hear the joke about Israel’s occupation of the Gaza Strip?”
punchline
“That’s not funny!!!”
I’m sorry but I don’t get it: Blasphemy and Racism are two separates things.
The images you claim to be Blasphemous are studpid anti-semitic racist cartoons. Blasphemy is “Profane speaking of God or sacred things; impious irreverence.”. Is mocking superstition. If someone is offended by mocking a superstition in which he believes, well, his faith is not so strong.
Everybody has the right to mock the invisible man in the sky that loves me but send me to hell if i masturbate or eat pork or work on sabbath. Like George Carlin did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE . Is he racist? No. He is blasphemous? Absolutely yes. And his gig applies well to all the 3 monotheistic religions.
And yes, this is what is needed more, at this time.
Oh! This was well done. I think I get the violent vs non-violent response that some want to make, but I’m not convinced it’s germane. Or, maybe it’s an order of magnitude (or more) back. These cartoons by Carlos Latuff are exceptionally good*. And, I cannot imagine them ever being widely printed in the American press. They would simply be taboo. There is no need to imagine any kind of violent response because I don’t believe they would ever appear here to provoke one. If they appear in Brazil, who really cares? I’m reasonably confident that Brazil has a Jewish population, but Brazil isn’t involved in any violent incursions into Israel. It becomes a “sticks and stones” circumstance. The meaning of these cartoons appearing in Brazil is not equivalent to the meaning cartoons lampooning Muslims has in Europe or the US. Were they, against all odds, to appear in American media, the ADL, and all of the other institutional entities that line up behind it (to include our own Congress), would condemn loudly and with great fanfare where they couldn’t sanction directly; a punitive sanction, of course, being the preferred course of action (see: Steven Salaita).
*IMO, a good cartoon will make some laugh, make others angry, reduce some to tears, leave some totally confused, and make others squirm.
“a good cartoon will make some laugh, make others angry, reduce some to tears, leave some totally confused, and make others squirm”
Those Latuff cartoons did all of the above to me, except I wasn’t confused.
Hey, Gator! No, I don’t imagine any of them left you confused. Thanks for alerting me to having expressed an incomplete thought. Leaving some confused and perhaps willing to search and understand…. Latuff’s cartoons left me with my head in my hands, dizzy from the emotional roller coaster of being a citizen of a major power that seems to excuse Israel whenever if can’t directly support her (which is rare).
Free speech is desirable, at least in theory. One can imagine a world where dispassionate intellectuals apply tests of logic to each other’s free speech and allow the superior argument to win the day.
In practice, people become enraged by free speech, and start killing each other.
Limiting free speech to cartoons is a good compromise.
In the past, the humor expressed in a cartoon often served to soften the edge of the underlying message, sometimes even sufficiently to avoid triggering a homicidal rage in the reader. Now of course, in order to maintain a baseline level of latent outrage, many people have dispensed with their senses of humor. This is a natural evolution of society – we no longer need a sense of humor to help us get along, since the same thing is achieved more efficiently by enforcing general obedience to authority.
But it’s still nice to maintain a certain number of cartoonists as a sort of romantic link to our past. These should be strictly vetted and licensed, and then provided with 24hr police protection. These cartoonists shouldn’t attempt to entertain us – which would be pointless since the audience lacks a sense of humor. But they can attempt to offend as many people as possible. Thus free speech will continue to exist, in the form of cartoonists, the way that wild animals will continue to exist, locked in zoos.
Excellent comment, Benito. And Glenn, this is a remarkable piece of writing. Very much looking forward to more cartoons from Carlos Latuff.
Should’ve credited ilduce.tumblr.com for the quote.
Careful, Duce. Cartoons and caricatures can have the power to bring down political figures, for instance, Thomas Nast’s cartoons of William “Boss” Tweed of New York. It even got to the point where the cartoons made Tweed recognizable for police arrest.
Simply a brilliant comment. I’ve long admired your work, Benito, but this one moved me to reply. A diamond among rubies, this one.
I have to say it’s been both hilarious and educational to read some of the responses to your Twitter feed regarding the rank hypocrisy of “freedom lovers”. Cartoons attacking Muslims equals FREE SPEECH while cartoons attacking Jews or Christians equals HATRED. One of my favorites is a user declaring that it’s different when you attack Muslims as opposed to Jews because Jews aren’t “evil and murderous”
As always, your voice has no parallels for consistent clarity. Thanks so much for your extraordinary insights.
Any religion is fair game. ANY. Beliefs are not the same as race, gender, or sexual orientation and ALL belief systems should be open to questioning, if not outright ridicule. And no belief system should be spared. By the way, those cartoonists who were murdered did not spare anyone.
So what I assume is that from now onwards when my child tries to disrespect someone regarding his colour, religion, creed, accent I would let him because it’s FREEDOM OF SPEECH. A society has some moral values as well.The most important one is not to hurt anyone’s sentiment. Peaceful Muslims of the world strictly condemns these types of barbaric acts by so called Muslims ,but demands respect from the other side as well.
Before you try to teach your child anything about “FREEDOM OF SPEECH, I suggest that you read and learn the meaning of the First Amendment. It doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not you personally, as a private citizen, choose to allow your child to be a bigot or a thoughtful and respectful person.
“The First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference. See U.S. Const. amend. I. Freedom of expression consists of the rights to freedom of speech, press, assembly and to petition the government for a redress of grievances, and the implied rights of association and belief. The Supreme Court interprets the extent of the protection afforded to these rights. The First Amendment has been interpreted by the Court as applying to the entire federal government even though it is only expressly applicable to Congress. Furthermore, the Court has interpreted, the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment as protecting the rights in the First Amendment from interference by state governments”
That would be impolite and probably stupid of you, but not illegal or unconstitutional….
What does that even mean?
“A society has some moral values as well.The most important one is not to hurt anyone’s sentiment. ”
NO, NO, a thousand times NO. Avoiding giving offense is a DEATH SENTENCE for a free society. If we all restricted ourselves to say things that offended no-one, meaningful political and philosphical discourse would cease.
The most important moral value in society is to combat speech you don’t like with speech of your own and not to resort to murder.
Islam fails this test. The punishment for mocking Mohammed is death. For this reason, Islam is not compatible with a free society and should be considered a threat.
And here’s another hyperlink that’s perhaps apropos. Sister Wendy discusses the “Piss Christ” with Bill Moyers. Interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9pAKdkJh-Y
God Bless Sister Wendy, may her tribe increase!
It’s also worth remembering Larry Flynt’s moment with offensive satire, that is to say, Hustler Magazine Inc. v. Falwell, 485 U.S. 46 (1988), in which he did mock a religious figure, a holier-than-thou man if not a holy man, certainly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hustler_Magazine,_Inc._v._Falwell
Although Falwell sued Flynt on a theory of libel, rather than blasphemy, it’s still worth noting that libel lawsuits can also be a way of squelching criticism, not to mention mockery, of high public figures, religious or otherwise. Still, the Flynt principle is true enough: “If the First Amendment will protect a scumbag like me, it will protect all of you. Because I’m the worst.”
Me and Jerry’s boys have been trying for years to score our first kill but still are batting zero. What do these Muslims know that we don’t that gets them thousands of kills a year?
Je m’appelle Cleve Hicks. Je ne suis pas un autre. Je deteste la meurtre de ces dessinateurs humoristiques, mais je n’ai aucune obligation morale de partager les desseins que je n’ aime pas.
I don’t think that’s fair to either Douthat or Yglesias. (Chait’s statement about defending the “practice” is ambiguous to me.)
You wrote later:
Indeed, and that is hardly the same as “embracing” the offensive ideas.
Your Douthat quote continues: “If a large enough group of someones is willing to kill you for saying something, then it’s something that almost certainly needs to be said, because otherwise the violent have veto power over liberal civilization, and when that scenario obtains it isn’t really a liberal civilization any more”.
Your Yglesias quote is immediately preceded by: “Images that were once not much more than shock for its own sake now stand for something — for the legal right to blaspheme and to give offense. Unforgivable acts of slaughter imbue merely rude acts of publication with a glittering nobility.”
Your main point seems to be that “there are all kinds of pernicious taboos in the west that result in self-censorship or compelled suppression of political ideas, from prosecution and imprisonment to career destruction: why is violence by Muslims the most menacing one?” I don’t see why you need to establish that Douthat, Yglesias and others are embracing the content of offensive anti-Muslim speech in order to make that point.
@GG – Douthat and Yglesias seem to be taking the same position that you once took with regard to the Danish cartoons. You weren’t embracing the message of the cartoons and neither are they.
2/19/06 (emphasis added):
9/12/07 (emphasis added):
The reason is this: “… it is self-evident that if a writer who specialized in overtly anti-black or anti-Semitic screeds had been murdered for their ideas, there would be no widespread calls to republish their trash in ‘solidarity’ with their free speech rights.” Would Douthat call the content “something that almost certainly needs to be said” in such a case? Would Yglesias call the publication of these ideas “a glittering nobility?” Of course they wouldn’t. This demonstrates the point that the reason for all this solidarity is not merely a belief in the freedem of expression but is also a level of comfort with the content of that expression.
That’s well reasoned, but to reach your conclusion you have to accept the (“self-evident”) assumption about Douthat, and I’m saying that even if the conclusion is granted, it’s not necessary for making what I consider to be the most important (effective) point. Also, Greenwald is saying they’re “embracing the content” whereas you’re only going as far as “a level of comfort with the content”. That’s definitely something, but I don’t think it’s enough. If it is enough, then Greenwald should have used those words or similar. Thanks for the reply.
I am Cleve Hicks. I am not anyone else. I hate that people killed those cartoonists, but that does not give me a moral obligation to share cartoons I don’t like.
Je m’appele Cleve Hicks. Je ne suis pas un autre. Je deteste la meurtre de ces dessinateurs humoristiques, mais je n’ai aucune obligation de partager les desseins que je n’ aime pas.
FANTASTIC.
INCROYABLE!
:)
What would be fantastic is an American or European choosing to live in a Muslim state instead of Israel. Never heard of it yet.
Obviously, you have never travelled out of your state. There are hundreds of thousands of expats living in cities such as Istanbul, Dubai or Kuala Lumpur. Again so many European retirees in Southern Turkey. I am pretty sure Turkey alone has way more Westerners living in welcoming conditions than Israel especially if you dont count super religious American Jews moving to illegal settlements. I don’t think these people represent our Western values anyways.
You’ve never heard of any American or European moving to India or Turkey or Indonesia or Egypt?
You might want to get out more.
Lots of Europeans live in Tunisia, Morrocco. The latter is a very popular holiday spot for French jews as it happens.
You didn’t say they had the choice of Israel. Re-read.
I have to say it’s been both hilarious and educational to read some of the responses to your Twitter feed regarding the rank hypocrisy of “freedom lovers”. Cartoons attacking Muslims equals FREE SPEECH while cartoons attacking Jews or Christians equals HATRED. One of my favorites is a user declaring that it’s different when you attack Muslims as opposed to Jews because Jews aren’t “evil and murderous”
As always, your voice has no parallels for consistent clarity. Thanks so much for your extraordinary insights.
Please talk about the Jews who killed people over cartoons.
Oh, Jewish terrorists are so much more sophisticated: They kill for talking to Ted Koppel on Nightline.
You’re not suggesting that there are not now and never have been Jewish terrorists, right?
You might want to check out Dubai.
Not if you’re a woman. Marte Deborah Dalelv was raped in Dubai and ended up in jail because of it.
This is the first coherent argument I’ve heard on the other side of the debate for a long time. I was taken aback that the Journalist in question was actually making valid points. Then I realized it was Glenn Greenwald and it all made sense. God, he’s good. Still, I disagree with him on some issues but his main point is valid and a very good one. Even Christopher Hitchens made the point that stymieing the free speech of Holocaust deniers and anti-semites would be counterproductive in the end and is a disgraceful practice. He specifically referred to the Historian David Irving’s case who was jailed in Austria for three years simply for expressing a scholarly opinion that did not match that of the mainstream. In case of the Holocaust or criticism of Jewry free speech does not apply, in fact you can be jailed for having an opinion that does not comport with officially sanctioned reality. It should not be a crime to be wrong about something or to question something that is established fact, no matter how many people it offends.
Charlie Hebdo printed their cartoons in solidarity with the Danish outlet. That took some balls since they knew that muslim extremists would try to attack them for it. You have printed “blasphemous cartoons” but they are anti-Semitic and not anti-muslim. The “solidarity” that you are showing to Charlie Hebdo is not the same as the solidarity that Charlie Hebdo showed to the Danish cartoonists. Jews do not believe in terrorism and believe in freedom of the press. So you risk nothing by printing these anti-Semitic cartoons and you should not pretend that you are taking the same risk that Charlie Hebdo took by showing true solidarity with the Danish cartoonists by printing anti-muslim cartoons.
For the record, I don’t care for anti-Semitic or anti-muslim propaganda. But I respect the freedom of the press and I respect the rights of people to say stupid sh#& and be dumb a$$es since we have the 1st amendment in the USA.
I’m going to alter you “Jews” to ‘Israeli Lobby’ and then ask, are you goddamned kidding? Are you actually serious?
” Jews do not believe in terrorism” – Person
and
“I respect the rights of people to say stupid sh#& and be dumb a$$es since we have the 1st amendment in the USA.” – Person
Your latter completely proves your former.
Really? What explains the fact that not a single MSM entity in the US published the story that the NSA was selling information on all US citizens to Israel with absolutely no legal restrictions – the New York Times had to be prodded for days by its readers and its public editor to even give an answer as to why they refused to mention it. Freedom of the press, indeed. While I saw a video online of Israeli soldiers killing 2 Palestinian schoolboys right before the kidnapping of 3 Israeli teenagers, I waited in vain for any mention of this incident to ever be mentioned.
They don’t need to ‘kill’ Glenn, they have armies of columnists, pundits, and useful idiots commenting for them.
So, Bill, are you now equating the pen and the bullet? Are these equal?
“Jews do not believe in terrorism”
MONA, you are needed. A teachable moment has presented itself.
Ah, Gator, yes, your people may be chosen, but alas, they are not above the foibles of the rest of us schlubs. In the 1980s, The FBI identified the Jewish Defense League as the #1 domestic terror threat, and these fine and sober gentleman assassinated a Palestinian-American after he had passed an evening conversing with Ted Koppel on Nightline.
And of course, there is that whole thing with Yitzhak Shamir innovating the letter bomb and advocating terrorism, but let’s let our novice start chewing on the JDL. I’ll update the syllabus for later.
Ah, -Mona- another Left-wing anti-Zionist kool kat. You’re so hip, you just can’t wait to high five Salaita.
Please, please, teach me some more how bad the Jooooooooooooooos are. Now where should we start. The single murder by the JDL (30 years ago)? The Stern Gang (75 years ago)? How about Joshua taking the land of Canaan by war (~2300 years ago, if not apocryphal)?
Unfortunately for your argument, Islamic terrorists slaughtered 4 Jewish civilians in cold blood this f*cking morning in a supermarket.
Your mentality is so depraved, it makes me wonder if you are railing against some sort of negative upbringing as opposed to objective reality. Were you teased by the pretty girls at Sunday school?
And how many civilians were slaughtered by The Jewish State in Gaza last year?
Ah, but that’s not terrorism, you say, because reasons. And so it goes.
“Islamic terrorists…”
——
There’s nothing Islamic about harming the non-combatants, including off-duty soldiers.
That was mature, classy too. Nonetheless, it doesn’t distract from the fact that Zionists and Israelis have a long, rich history of terrorism and are still at it today. Of course, I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know –and most likely wholeheartedly support and defend.
You mean the single murder in the U.S. You may read about Baruch Goldstein and the Hebron massacre here: http://972mag.com/a-city-of-devastation-hebron-20-years-after-the-massacre/87714/
The State of Israel likely would not have been born in ’48 but for Zionist terrorism, including that committed by two terrorists whom israel would eventually elect as prime minister, Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin. Shamir’s devotion to terror has been discussed by many:
JDL which, by the way, remains perfectly legal in France…
JJ, how many victims did Baruch Goldstein make again ?…
And how many Swedish mosques were targeted in the course of one month ?
Ah, but Goldstein is soooooo 20 years ago … AND back then, we didn’t have the terror hysteria we now have. I’m SURE if that happened now, we would have all the same folks talking about how terroristic the Radical Jewish faith is … https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein
So twenty years ago ? What about burning Mohammed al-Kudair alive ? And what about my second example ?…
read : Mohammed Abu Khudair
Took some time before I grasped the irony. Keep up the good work ! ;-)
Wow, you really are obsessed with Jewish violence. Yes, of course it exists. Jews are people too and have their violent sociopaths.
But Islam extols violence. It COMMANDS violence as a means to convert non-believers. And the millions upon millions of those killed in the name of Islam or in violent conflicts between Muslims just in the last 50 years dwarfs the casualties in all the Jewish-related conflicts since 2000 years ago. Hundreds of thousands in Syria; millions in the Iran-Iraq war, Boko Haram running amuck in Nigeria; Somali terrorists wreaking havoc on a large scale; the list goes on and on.
And those who claim it has “nothing” to do with Islam are quite incredibly capable of rejecting all the evidence before them and living in a fantasy world.
What I claim is that all the coups, all the puppet dictators, all the wars of agression have undermined Muslim reformism. That’s what I claim…
And, on that other thing, when I watch radical zionists, most of whom are living comfortable lives and most of whom enjoyed a mighty fine education, boil in rage in the exact same way as the “cavemen” they claim to be fighting, when every single word they pronounce is one that denies ALL Muslims their humanity, when they furiously advocate killing every single Gazan or “vitrifying Iran” (quote from the World Likud’s president), then I do think they’ve come a long dark way from that tolerant, humanist and democratic tradition they’re trying to sell…
Am I equating all Jews with those who cheered at the 2,000+ slaughtered Gazans as you do all Muslims to Boko Haram ? No, I’m not.
Am I claiming the Tanakh is what inspired the IDF and Netanyahu’s far right ? That would be ridiculous, wouldn’t it ?
Merely counting the dead here…
Sitting on a hilltop and cheering as the bombs were falling on Gazan civilians including kids & elderly, weren’t those the Israeli Jews?
Humans -Jews, Muslims, Atheists, etc.– have violent instinct and thirst for vengeance, some more than others. So let’s not feel too special.
As for freedom of Press, recall when IDF terrorists murdered journalists on Flotilla. Or when they block UN inspectors and media from entering into war zones. There’s a lengthy list.
Brilliant piece.
Liberals are not going to like this.
@ PERSON:
Apparently you’ve never heard of the JDL (Jewish Defense League):
I won’t bother to linking to all acts of fundamentalist or orthodox Jewish whackos in Israel who have engaged in “terrorism” against other Jews and their various neighbors who are not Jewish–because I’d run out of space in this comment section. That you’ve never been confronted with those violent acts and actors is a function of either laziness or willful obtuseness.
Oops forgot the link for the blockquote: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/pg-jdl.html
But acts that can be classified as “terrorism” are not mutually exclusive with those nominally self-identifying with the Jewish faith.
“Jews do not believe in terrorism…”
You’re kidding, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/4351672/French-cartoonist-Sine-on-trial-on-charges-of-anti-Semitism-over-Sarkozy-jibe.html
h/t
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-lefts-ignorant-islam-critics/?utm_source=feedly&utm_reader=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-lefts-ignorant-islam-critics
Brilliant, Glenn. This is a superb rebuttal to all the nonsense that has been spewed over twitter and elsewhere since Wednesday. Thank you for a greatly needed perspective and response.
Agree totally
me too.
So my comment making the point that calling Charlie Hebdo “racist” involves intentionally misrepresenting the actual underlying point behind their cartoons (which in both the Boko Haram case and in the monkey case are actively mocking racism), and pointing out that this article specifically avoids that context in an attempt to make a point, isn’t going to pass moderation?
@Joe — I’ll clue you in. You can choose to get it, or to go on with your incorrect assumption and accusation about “moderation.” If you posted a comment that you have yet to see, it was not moderated. It will show up eventually. The reason for it not showing up immediately has to do with some spam filter or some other much less than adequate comment system crapazoid piece of junk that will some day no longer exist here. Again: your post was not “moderated.”
Yeah, it eventually came up. Feel kinda dumb about this second one now. =x
If it’s any consolation, you are far from the first one to have made that assumption and accusation. And in fact, if one is not familiar with the Intercept, it’s reasonably understandable for a commenter to assume that they have been moderated when their comments don’t show up relatively immediately.
You are right, he got that Boko Haram cartoon wrong. (Don’t know what you’rereferring to with the monkey one.) But I don’t think it has to be ranked as intellectualy dishonest. I’m srue lots of people misunderstood it.
And the overall point here is not diminished by that error.
This is good, comments especially: http://www.quora.com/What-was-the-context-of-Charlie-Hebdos-cartoon-depicting-Boko-Haram-sex-slaves-as-welfare-queens
Concerning that last cartoon by the artist you endorse: Is a cartoon mocking a “prophet” really the equivalent of a cartoon mocking the Holocaust? Not even close.
Police in Scotland now monitoring Twitter for crimethink and crimespeak. No problem. Racist anti-Semitic cartoons bad. Racist anti-Muslim cartoons? FREE SPEECH.
Maybe it’s doublethink that is the enemy?
No, wait, the enemy is Glenn Greenwald, because he makes NSA Nate’s head hurt.
well put Bill.
But there are all kinds of pernicious taboos in the west that result in self-censorship or compelled suppression of political ideas, from prosecution and imprisonment to career destruction: why is violence by Muslim the most menacing one?
Because getting killed is worse than prosecution or imprisonment or career destruction? Are you seriously asking “why is violence worse than non-violence?”
Perfect. Greenwald sounds so out of touch. I think he really doesn’t get it and that’s why he thinks he maybe is being just as brave for publishing these cartoons.
Leaving aside from all the examples of death threats and violence I cited in the name of non-Muslim religions, your argument is that it’s only truly disturbing when free speech results in someone’s death, but not in their imprisonment for many, many years?
So you insist that the threats in the name of non-Muslim religions are on par with the threats for blasphemy against Islam? Honestly, you sound like an out of touch liberal American who is unaware about what goes on the world.
Your charge, that Greenwald is “out of touch” borders on insanity.
Oh, fuck that, it is insane.
You are putting words in my mouth. You literally asked “why is violence by Muslims the most menacing” in comparison to imprisonment/prosecution/career destruction. And I answered your question: because it is violence and violence to me (and most people) is worse than nonviolent punishments.
And to answer your second question: violence as punishment for taboo breaking = truly disturbing, imprisonment/prosecution for breaking a taboo = disturbing, career destruction for breaking a taboo = not disturbing.
Based on your second paragraph, you’re not much interested in defending freedom of speech. You’re interested in protecting human lives, which is obviously admirably, but free speech itself isn’t particularly important to you. So please don’t pretend that it is. I think that was Greenwald’s point.
I don’t care about free speech if free speech means freedom to say whatever you want without any employment consequences. I don’t give a flying monkey shit about what happened to Steven Salaita, he is an alive and free man. I do care about free speech in that one shouldn’t be subject to violence or incarceration for their speech. I have a friend who was expelled from a middle eastern country for engaging in pro-Hezbollah/Shiite speech. I’m sad that this happened but I’m glad that this friend is still alive and unharmed and not sitting in a dungeon.
There we have it!
We here are discussing free speech, which encomapses issues such as academic freedom. This is not an area in which an authoritarian such as yourself can contribute much. But if you stay, we do now know what you are.
“This is not an area in which an authoritarian such as yourself can contribute much. ”
Is that what we are doing here, contributing? I thought we were all just crazy people who like to argue with strangers for some stupid reason. Better time spent than shooting people I suppose.
Once in a while, an interesting idea is popping up. You might wanna check it out… in other people’s comments.
“admirable,” not “admirably”
@ Ghostyghost:
Have you ever been imprisoned for any length of time? If you had you would not refer to it as “nonviolent” punishment. Have you ever had your “career destroyed” and tried to find a job in another career and support a family while being “unemployable” or the depths of poverty or destitution because you’ve violated some societal taboo? If you had you wouldn’t be described it as “nonviolent”. Walk around some of the neighborhoods in America where poverty is rampant, or talk to a man who has violated a social taboo and ask him how “violent” is his existence if he is prohibited from working. Hell ask any felon convicted of a violent or sex crime in America. There are millions so they shouldn’t be hard to find.
Yeah the streets are full of brutalized ex-cartoonists who have to eat out of garbage cans because they used twitter to criticize Israel. Meanwhile in the real world there are dead cartoonists because they criticized Islam. You trivialize the plight of the poor and those trying to re-enter society after incarceration by comparing them to a college professor who had to experience the injustice of having a job offer revoked.
career destruction for breaking a taboo = not disturbing.
Thomas Drake, who went from a career in the high levels of the NSA to working at an Apple store might beg to differ.
Would you rather that the government had executed him for treason, which is what every government in history up to this point would have done? He paid a harsh punishment for what he did but he has a chance to live his life and work, his current existence is not a tragedy but is a story of resilience.
You don’t really know anything about the case of Thomas Drake, do you?
his current existence is not a tragedy but is a story of resilience.
Yes. I would still label disturbing the fact that the government tried to destroy him, nonetheless. They have done the same to a number of less strong people.
Really? Then I invite you to draw up some cartoons skewering the KKK, distribute them in The South, and see how long you live.
The modern KKK is a feeble shadow of what is once was and hasn’t murdered anyone in decades. I would distribute those cartoons without the slightest bit of fear
Exactly. I’m glad to see this – and applaud you for making the point starkly. Someone needed to say it.
I too defend the right of free speech, but at the same time don’t condone offensive or other such speech. That seems to have been lost.
True defense of free speech requires someone to defend speech that personally offends them. Not something that doesn’t bother them, or they find humorous.
“I am Charlie Hebdo” otherwise is really “I’m a bigot”. Is the lesson “It’s ok to hate muslims” or that “free speech is precious”?
No, the lesson is that most people just shoot first.
A few people think about it later.
Even fewer think first.
Here endeth the lesson.
“”True defense of free speech requires someone to defend speech that personally offends them. Not something that doesn’t bother them, or they find humorous.””
Thank you. I will keep that for life.
i think the message is: “it’s OK to hate Muslims…” but don’t you criticise Christians, or Jews….or the Americkan Military….then you are really in deep doo doo….
yep it really is about “i’m a bigot”…and openly admitting it.
Oh, so brave!
I look forward to an Israeli settler paying a visit to the gay, privileged, narcissistic, Westernized Court Jew known as Glenn Greenwald.
Of course, that’s not going to happen.
didn’t like the article? awww….
I made similar points on Twitter yesterday. As per usual, hypocrisy and bigotry rule.
Thanks Glenn.
My comment on the CBC website and in the Calgary Sun website was that anyone who moderates comment threads is NOT Charlie Hebdo. CBC took down comments, some of my staunch opponents at the Sun agreed with me.
I am staunchly for free speech, staunchly against ‘moderation'(censorship). AND with that, I believe that one should prepare to defend ones speech.
He good for you. The CBC comments section is occupied territory – for sure.
Those “free speech” maniacs moderate me so much, I have to force myself to try to post there knowing full well that most of what I consider honest, frank and fair they consider crimethink.
“My comment on the CBC website and in the Calgary Sun website was that anyone who moderates comment threads is NOT Charlie Hebdo.”
This rings true. Well said.
BRAVO GLENN!!
I would also like to add another strictly observed taboo in the US media: satire and ridicule of the US military. Our military is absolutely sacrosanct. Any cartoonist who dares to lampoon the US military will inevitably be rebuked, their paper will be pressured to apologize and yank the cartoon. The cartoonist will be disciplined and even fired.
All this ranting & raving about our commitment to free speech in recent wks with the Sony/N.Korea kerfuffle and now this Paris massacre has been sickening to watch-the hypocrisy is breathtaking. And now apparently there is only ONE proper, valid response to this massacre: rejecting one orthodoxy in favor of another. We’re supposed to universally unquestioningly love, admire and embrace this magazine because several of their staff members were murdered for what they published.
Well, so very sorry but I fkg dissent. I can condemn this massacre and criticize the magazine all at the same time. And fuck off to all those sanctimonious authoritarian scolds who demand that I believe otherwise. I’m not embracing any orthodoxy.
OUR mass murderers are nobly sacrificing to defend all that we hold dear.
THEIR mass murderers are barbarian savages.
Isn’t this self-evident?
well written, totally agree.
brava Sandra!!
loved your comments…
Well said!
“If, as Salman Rushdie said, it’s vital that all religions be subjected to ‘fearless disrespect,’ have I done my part to uphold western values?”|
For the most part. You mention Christianity in the article but it would have been nice to see more direct criticism of it and overt US militarism in the cartoons.
As to Christianity, it’s well worth holding up to criticism and, yes, ridicule, not just because of its political power in the US but because it seems to want an enforced piety as well — and outrage can be manufactured, inflamed, to suit a narrative. The annual “War on Christmas” is perhaps the best example of this kind of pietistic self-stimulation, and it’s gotten to the point where you’re taking a risk if you say “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas.” In any event, either you govern what you say or they will.
Thanks, Coram, for that excellent quote from Jefferson.
thanks for the Jefferson quote…it was extremely apt to the occasion.
Not to tarnish coram’s excellent post and quote, but for the OP – there is a Charlie Hebdo cover that shows God being sodomized by Christ, who is in turn being sodomized by what appears to be the Holy Spirit. Don’t have a link, but it’s out there.
Pretending the Boko Haram cover was racist is straight up intellectually dishonesty – it’s mocking nationalist attitudes about the nature of immigrants. That moronic thinkpiece you linked also presents the monkey cartoon – actively mocking racism of the far right – as just racist, because it ignores all of the context.
Jesus Christ, it was left-wing satire. If you have to rely on these misrepresentations to make your point, I hope you start making the same condemnations of South Park, and then maybe you can join up with #CancelColbert, since they purposefully misrepresented satire as well. I’ll start taking your Enlightened Progressive Outrage when you stop being a liar in the process.
So…only “our” satire is “good” satire?
My only point is, if you’re going to criticize satirists, criticize their actual underlying message as opposed to a bland surface level analysis of what’s offensive. If Greenwald’s point is “we should not accept the use of racist symbols in order to make an anti-racist point” (which, given the examples he’s chosen, is essentially his point), he should say so.
To do otherwise is to chastise Jonathan Swift’s eating habits.
Agree completely. I also agree with Glenn’s basic points above. Like you, I just don’t agree with the characterization of the covers that you specify … it IS satire, very good, pointed, satire, and the folks who think it reinforces racial stereotypes and other social ills need to show me the studies proving that. I have seen this argument elsewhere. Sorry if people don’t “get” the satire OR don’t think it’s useful, that’s not the responsibility of CH. If Glenn and others are aesthetically disliking the caricatures, that’s cool … but to misunderstand the intent or the actual satire, and to claim that they reinforce stereotypes? I disagree with this thinking. I have also seen the argument pushed into the “Intent is not magic” realm … where again I will need to see evidence showing that satirical pieces reinforce negative stereotypes instead of dissipating or diffusing them …. my mind is open.
I dare say it’s part of a larger pattern taking place on the progressive left (in which I now find myself in only ~90% agreement these days). This is a good read: http://fredrikdeboer.com/2014/04/18/free-speech-rights-and-ability/
And yes, Glenn makes some fair points about double-standards and thinly veiled usage of legitimate concepts to mask bigotry. But man, I’ve been reading these misrepresentations of CB everywhere today it seems, and it rather rustles my jimmies.
I think you’re missing the basic definition of satire: to poke fun at the ruling class, not for the ruling class to poke fun at populations they oppress. THAT is called oppression.
No place where people are prevented from criticizing behavior they disagree with can be considered free. And, yes, people are welcome to criticize me for feeling this way. I can handle that.
I’m lining up behind Greenwald on this one.
me too.
The greatest threat to free speech remains political correctness. Imagine 2 cartoonists in a mainstream Western newspaper. One draws a cartoon mocking Islam, and the other draws a cartoon similar to ones above (the ones mocking Jews). I think we all know which cartoonist is more likely to have his career terminated.
well put….and exactly what Glenn was saying in his article….
One could say that, in media and intellectual/political circles, there are different niches with their own hypocrisy which are a mirror image of each other. If for some, criticism and mockery of jews and israel are an outrageous taboo whereas mockery of Islam is ok, for other is the exact opposite. Greenwald certainly lives in a circle where criticism of muslims and fundamentalist islam is a taboo, since he never does it. There is nothing courageous to toe the party line like that, only criticizing the other side. And worst of all – keeps the analysis incomplete, superficial, contradictory and often times hypocritical. It doesn’t have to be like that.
“Greenwald certainly lives in a circle where criticism of muslims and fundamentalist islam is a taboo, since he never does it. ”
Yeah, because there’s so very little of that criticism going around – we so little of it.
Satire that punches up to the powerful is far far more preferable than satire that punches down to the powerless.
Are muslim fundamentalist powerless? I would think their victims are the powerless ones – you know, the millions living under oppressive religious regimes, not to mention the ones being killed.
Seeing the entire picture is far far more preferable than incomplete analysis and selective and hypocritical outrage.
Your reasoning is lousy. You are dumb. That is all.
I would so greatly enjoy it if you moved to a Muslim dominated country.
I remember when Putin was our bro, our wingman, and the French were cheese eating surrender monkeys – so vile we had to change food names. And they will be again. But not today.
My how times (and agendas, not people or countries) change.
I remember that vaguely….. FREEDOM-FRIES ;-)
I’d agree it’s more politically useful.
Preferences are … well, preferences. As Glenn Greenwald might say: who gives a shit what you prefer?
In Myanmar the officially pacifist Buddhist extremists are dragging Muslims out in the street and beating them to death, then torching their houses and sometimes their children.
Cue beard scratch and thoughtful gaze into the distance.
How should that preference be enforced? Should the freedom to speak be mediated by a marxian power analysis of who’s up and who’s down? This is what’s going on on US college campuses. Glenn notes that some Charlie Hebdo satire is directed not at Islam, but at Muslims themselves, “a marginalized and targeted immigrant population.” Perhaps he agrees with you.
Great reply –too bad it was wasted on the obdurate.
Remind me, are extremist Israels murdering satirists as well? If so, then yes you’re SO brave.
And therefore you balance the scale by posting anti-Israeli cartoons. We get it Glenn, you’re a rebel!!
Um, because there is VIOLENCE involved. What other extremist religious group out there today are firebombing and murdering journalists who dare criticize their religion or publish images of their prophet?
Without reading your comment. (Why bother?) You are wrong as usual.
How would you know I was wrong if you didn’t read it?
The intellectual giants are out today
The meaning of “Nate” is coterminous with “wrong”.
Thanks Mr. Greenwald (I avoid using your first name in addressing you so as not to appear to be addressing myself) for stating that which would be obvious if not for pervasive cultural blindness.
The movie “They Live!” by John Carpenter has an absurdly extended fight scene where the fight is about one absurdly refusing to merely look through special sunglasses that reveal messages otherwise not visible.
In my experience, getting people to see the things that are plainly there for all to see results in the most vitriolic of verbal reactions.
Don’t you just love that actor ? I mean, it was a whole other level than Steven Segal back then, wasn’t it ?
great comment.
Statistics!
Gideon Levy routinely receives death threats for his journalistic work at Haaretz. The threat of violence is not the exclusive purview of radical Islam. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.636377
Well, I read the first line of your comment (where you tried to answer a hypothetical question) a concluded that you are at least dumb, if not wrong
“Um, because there is VIOLENCE involved. What other extremist religious group out there today are firebombing and murdering journalists who dare criticize their religion or publish images of their prophet?”
Exactly, it is telling that the counter examples he brings up of non-muslims trying to suppress speech with threats of violence are all over a decade old and his one example of a Christian actually using violence for the purpose of punishing free speech (Larry Flint’s shooter) was nearly 40 years ago. The amount of violence committed by radical Muslims on blasphemous non believers is simply unique and disproportionate and threatens our collective peace and safety.
@Nate – Greenwald acknowledges the violent/non-violent distinction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naji_al-Ali
Naji Salim al-Ali (Arabic: ???? ???? ?????? N?j? Sal?m al-‘Al? ; born c. 1938 – 29 August 1987) was a Palestinian cartoonist, noted for the political criticism of the Arab regimes and Israel in his works. He drew over 40,000 cartoons, which often reflected Palestinian and Arab public opinion and were sharply critical commentaries on Palestinian and Arab politics and political leaders.[1] He is perhaps best known as creator of the character Handala, pictured in his cartoons as a young witness of the satirized policy or event depicted,[1] and who has since become an icon of Palestinian defiance. On 22 July 1987, while outside the London offices of al-Qabas, a Kuwaiti newspaper for which he drew political caricatures,[1][2] Naji was shot in the face and mortally wounded.[3] Naji al-Ali died five weeks later in Charing Cross Hospital.
Killed by Mexican drug cartels, no doubt.
I would like to congratulate you sir. Someone should have brought that up by now.
I think Greenwald is offensively correct. I’m not sure he needed to kick quite so ferociously to make his point. One trick he’s missed though is the argument that not all religions are created equal. I could post a cartoon of Jesus smoking a cigarette, sitting at the bottom of the cross and taking a tea break without expecting much fuss… but a picture of the Prophet Mohammed even in a state of respectful reverence will result in death threats. That is a form of bullying that deserves as much condemnation as the questionable selectivism of Bill Maher and Western Editors. Put another way, while all religions are twisted to suit twisted objectives, Islam more than most seems be an easy one for even its leaders to “misrepresent” – if that’s indeed what they are doing.
I see almost NO blasphemous anti-Christian cartoons, while there are lots of mainstream American anti-Muslim cartoons. Tell you what…make up some anti-Christian and anti-KKK cartoons and distribute them in The South. Let me know how that turns out for you…
“I see almost NO blasphemous anti-Christian cartoons” – that is an indications about your lack of information. The blasphemous anti-Christian cartoons by Charlie Hebdo have been making the rounds all over the internet in the last few days.
I take your point. I picked my example from a girl in a convent school in the 1960s, who was admittedly expelled for her creative sins… but no one threatened her life, well, other than to tell her she’d burn in Hell ;)
Groups that are in power have no need to kill. What they do do, is vilify, expel, and imprison.
Also bomb, invade, subjugate, torture and exploit. Oh boy, how they do exploit.
One man’s “terrorism” is another’s “guerilla” warfare. I imagine today’s security jargon being applied quite neatly to the ‘American’ war of independence. Certainly the British regarded the rebels as scum, to be exterminated.
“I see almost NO blasphemous anti-Christian cartoons”
Welcome to your first day on the Internet. You’ll be seeing plenty. Personally, I get out of the Jesus Fucking Christ one. Check Google Images.
Ever heard of “Piss Christ”? Search on it. Tell us what you think would happen to an artist that exhibited a statue of Christ in a bottle of urine.
Not quite. Most religions are prosecutorial, hypocritical, murderous and capable of selecting carefully in which moment and circumstance to be each. For instance, a point repeated many times in christian television in the US is that AIDS is the cure for homosexuality. This horrible statement is recited as if it was god’s truth by people like Pat Robertson or used to that other one who died, on a regular basis, and multitude of American christians repeat it to their families and children. Not to mention of course the frontal attacks of PR against Islam, which based on pure hatred and ignorance, are rarely criticized by the mean stream media. The hypocrisy Greenwald speaks about is alive and well and oozes from many of these comments.
well put, and all too true…unfortunately….
Exactly. Greenwald publishing anti-Jewish cartoons is not an equal act of bravery; it’s just picking a safe target, because he knows Jews won’t shoot him in the head for doing it.
Glenn does not seem get Charlie Hebdo. It is fundamentally anti-racist and anti-Islamophobe. The closest thing we have in the U.S. is Colbert Report. And he has also been accused of being bigoted by people who don’t get that the joke is on the bigots, the extremists, the dogmatists, and the reactionary. That is not true of most of the comics Glenn posted to be equally offensive to Charlie Hebdo (unless they are in fact intended making fun of anti-Semite bigotry)
Sorry, but Colbert Report was nothing like Charlie Hebdo.
It certainly deserves condemnation, but you are assuming those who are angered by a pictorial representation of Mohammed are rational. In the context of the modern world, it seems more like an extreme sort of paranoia, especially since Mohammed never stated that there could be no pictures of him. Maybe the terrorists are really concerned about disrespect they believe is shown to themselves, as evidenced by the cartoons, etc. How can one reach people who are either intensely angry, confused, or sociopathic (within any belief system)?
Well said. I agree.
The terrorists were looking for attention. The Paris media was using the word Attentat which has the meaning of a political act of terror, usually failed, to get attention. The fact that the magazine published the cartoons was an excuse to put the staff on the terror map for an eventual attentat. If the magazine hadn’t been attacked, it would have been some other target, offensive for some other reason. The terrorists are like the problem children in a classroom. it they feel they are not getting enough attention they act out to get some.
No one will kill you for those publications and no one said Charlie Hebdo was out of critic; you are off the point.
Also, you might not speak French and not be a reader of this newspaper: it’s clearly offensive and vulgar (if you don’t like it, just don’t read it) but has never been racist.
The first picture you publish is a reference to a Godard movie, for instance.
Inconvenient truths.
Somebody will fire you for cartoons about the Holocaust and you will go to jail for Holocaust denial in France and most of Western Europe. Freedom of Speech is not wieghed equally.
There is a very thin line between racism and Islamophobia, especially in Europe these days.
Once again, its eurocentrism at oys best.how can you not figure out that you’re hurting other ppls feelings.and these drawing which are pornographic sometimes cannoy seriously be considered as the flagship of freedom
I think you’re taking the safe road here. Blasphemy laws – of illegal retaliation – are a huge threat to free speech around the world and it is an overwhelmingly a Muslim dogma. I get the point that there is a lot hypocrisy in the form of pseudo-liberal islamophobia, but I think you’re just sliding too far into a PC-tendency which has nothing courageous about it: it is safe behavior for a liberal blogger like yourself. There could be a little more substance in your analysis and less political correctness.
Totally agree. No Jews are going to go shoot Glenn Greenwald in the head for publishing anti-Jewish cartoons. What Greenwald’s done here is not courageous at all–it’s just picking a safe target.
political correctness in his blog???? you must be insane to believe that….Glenn is the last person to accuse of that old canard.
Ah, it’s all about the Jews. Again.
Stupid comment. Again.
yeah,… lets do more cartoons about american killings abroad instead ;-)
or about their way to bring “democracy” to other countries who even doesn’t want it…. (and “democracy” is just newspeak for “our system”, which has nothing to do with the real meaning of democracy)…
very pertinent comment.