The Washington Post late Friday night published an explosive story that, in many ways, is classic American journalism of the worst sort: The key claims are based exclusively on the unverified assertions of anonymous officials, who in turn are disseminating their own claims about what the CIA purportedly believes, all based on evidence that remains completely secret.
These unnamed sources told the Post that “the CIA has concluded in a secret assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump win the presidency, rather than just to undermine confidence in the U.S. electoral system.” The anonymous officials also claim that “intelligence agencies have identified individuals with connections to the Russian government who provided WikiLeaks with thousands of hacked emails” from both the DNC and John Podesta’s email account. Critically, none of the actual evidence for these claims is disclosed; indeed, the CIA’s “secret assessment” itself remains concealed.
A second leak from last night, this one given to the New York Times, cites other anonymous officials as asserting that “the Russians hacked the Republican National Committee’s computer systems in addition to their attacks on Democratic organizations, but did not release whatever information they gleaned from the Republican networks.” But that NYT story says that “it is also far from clear that Russia’s original intent was to support Mr. Trump, and many intelligence officials — and former officials in Mrs. Clinton’s campaign — believe that the primary motive of the Russians was to simply disrupt the campaign and undercut confidence in the integrity of the vote.”
Deep down in its article, the Post notes — rather critically — that “there were minor disagreements among intelligence officials about the agency’s assessment, in part because some questions remain unanswered.” Most importantly, the Post adds that “intelligence agencies do not have specific intelligence showing officials in the Kremlin ‘directing’ the identified individuals to pass the Democratic emails to WikiLeaks.” But the purpose of both anonymous leaks is to finger the Russian government for these hacks, acting with the motive to defeat Hillary Clinton.
Needless to say, Democrats — still eager to make sense of their election loss and to find causes for it other than themselves — immediately declared these anonymous claims about what the CIA believes to be true, and, with a somewhat sweet, religious-type faith, treated these anonymous assertions as proof of what they wanted to believe all along: that Vladimir Putin was rooting for Donald Trump to win and Hillary Clinton to lose and used nefarious means to ensure that outcome. That Democrats are now venerating unverified, anonymous CIA leaks as sacred is par for the course for them this year, but it’s also a good indication of how confused and lost U.S. political culture has become in the wake of Trump’s victory.
Given the obvious significance of this story — it is certain to shape how people understand the 2016 election and probably foreign policy debates for months if not years to come — it is critical to keep in mind some basic facts about what is known and, more importantly, what is not known:
There is still no such evidence for any of these claims. What we have instead are assertions, disseminated by anonymous people, completely unaccompanied by any evidence, let alone proof. As a result, none of the purported evidence — still — can be publicly seen, reviewed, or discussed. Anonymous claims leaked to newspapers about what the CIA believes do not constitute proof, and certainly do not constitute reliable evidence that substitutes for actual evidence that can be reviewed. Have we really not learned this lesson yet?
A reminder to take every claim made by unnamed US officials about intelligence conclusions with healthy skepticism.
— Christopher Hayes (@chrislhayes) December 10, 2016
To begin with, CIA officials are professional, systematic liars; they lie constantly, by design, and with great skill, and have for many decades, as have intelligence officials in other agencies.
Many of those incidents demonstrate, as hurtful as it is to accept, that these agencies even lie when there’s a Democrat overseeing the executive branch. Even in those cases when they are not deliberately lying, they are often gravely mistaken. Intelligence is not a science, and attributing hacks to specific sources is a particularly difficult task, almost impossible to carry out with precision and certainty.
Beyond that, what makes claims from anonymous sources so especially dubious is that their motives cannot be assessed. Who are the people summarizing these claims to the Washington Post? What motives do they have for skewing the assertions one way or the other? Who are the people inside the intelligence community who fully ratify these assertions and who are the ones who dissent? It’s impossible to answer any of these questions because everyone is masked by the shield of anonymity, which is why reports of this sort demand high levels of skepticism, not blind belief.
Most important of all, the more serious the claim is — and accusing a nuclear-armed power of directly and deliberately interfering in the U.S. election in order to help the winning candidate is about as serious as a claim can get — the more important it is to demand evidence before believing it. Wars have started over far less serious claims than this one. People like Lindsey Graham are already beating their chest, demanding that the U.S. do everything in its power to punish Russia and “Putin personally.”
Nobody should need an explainer about why it’s dangerous in the extreme to accept such inflammatory accusations on faith or, worse, based on the anonymous assurances of intelligence officials, in lieu of seeing the actual evidence.
Recall that the top echelon of the CIA was firmly behind Clinton and vehemently against Trump, while at least some powerful factions within the FBI had the opposite position.
Former acting CIA Director Michael Morell not only endorsed Clinton in the New York Times but claimed that “Mr. Putin had recruited Mr. Trump as an unwitting agent of the Russian Federation.” George W. Bush’s CIA and NSA director, Gen. Michael Hayden, pronounced Trump a “clear and present danger” to U.S. national security and then, less than a week before the election, went to the Washington Post to warn that “Donald Trump really does sound a lot like Vladimir Putin” and said Trump is “the useful fool, some naif, manipulated by Moscow, secretly held in contempt, but whose blind support is happily accepted and exploited.”
Meanwhile, key factions in the FBI were furious that Hillary Clinton was not criminally charged for her handling of classified information; pressured FBI Director James Comey into writing a letter that was pretty clearly harmful to Clinton about further investigating the case; and seemed to be improperly communicating with close Trump ally Rudy Giuliani. And while we are now being treated to anonymous leaks about how the CIA believes Putin helped Trump, recall that the FBI, just weeks ago, was shoveling anonymous claims to the New York Times that had the opposite goal:
One can choose to believe whatever anonymous claims from these agencies with a long history of lying and error one wants to believe, based on whatever agenda one has. Or one can wait to review the actual evidence before forming beliefs about what really happened. It should take little effort to realize that the latter option is the only rational path.
The always-observant Marcy Wheeler last night documented many of those; anyone interested in this story should read her analysis as soon as possible. I want to highlight just a few of these vital contradictions and questions.
To start with, the timing of these leaks is so striking. Even as Democrats have spent months issuing one hysterical claim after the next about Russian interference, the White House, and Obama specifically, have been very muted about all of this. Perhaps that’s because he did not want to appear partisan or be inflammatory, but perhaps it’s because he does not believe there is sufficient proof to accuse the Russian government; after all, if he really believed the Russians did even half of what Democrats claim, wouldn’t he (as some Democrats have argued) be duty-bound to take aggressive action in retaliation?
It was announced yesterday afternoon that Obama had ordered a full review of hacking allegations: a perfectly sensible step that makes clear that an investigation is needed, and evidence disclosed, before any definitive conclusions can be reached. It was right on the heels of that announcement that this CIA leak emerged: short-cutting the actual, deliberative investigative process Obama had ordered in order to lead the public to believe that all the answers were already known and, before the investigation even starts, that Russia was guilty of all charges.
More important is what the Post buries in its story: namely, what are the so-called “minor disagreements among intelligence officials about the agency’s assessment”? How “minor” are they? And what do these conclusions really mean if, as the Post’s sources admit, the CIA is not even able to link the hack to the actual Russian government, but only to people outside the government (from the Post: “Those actors, according to the official, were ‘one step’ removed from the Russian government, rather than government employees”)?
This is why it’s such a shoddy and unreliable practice to conduct critical debates through conflicting anonymous leaks. Newspapers like the Post have the obvious incentive to hype the flashy, flamboyant claims while downplaying and burying the caveats and conflicting evidence. None of these questions can be asked, let alone answered, because the people who are making these claims are hidden and the evidence is concealed.
Contrary to the blatant straw man many Democrats are railing against, nobody ever said it was McCarthyite to want to investigate claims of Russian hacking. To the contrary, critics of Clinton supporters have been arguing for exactly that: that these accusations should not be believed in the absence of meaningful inquiry and evidence, which has thus far been lacking.
What critics have said is McCarthyite — and, as one of those critics, I fully stand by this — is the lowly tactic of accusing anyone questioning these accusations, or criticizing the Clinton campaign, of being Kremlin stooges or Putin agents. Back in August, after Democrats decided to smear Jill Stein as a Putin stooge, here’s how I defined the McCarthyite atmosphere that Democrats have deliberately cultivated this year:
So that’s the Democratic Party’s approach to the 2016 election. Those who question, criticize or are perceived to impede Hillary Clinton’s smooth, entitled path to the White House are vilified as stooges, sympathizers and/or agents of Russia: Trump, WikiLeaks, Sanders, The Intercept, Jill Stein. Other than loyal Clinton supporters, is there anyone left who is not covertly controlled by or in service to The Ruskies?
Concerns over Democrats’ McCarthyism never had anything to do with a desire for an investigation into the source of the DNC and Podesta hacking; everyone favored such investigations. Indeed, accusations that Democrats were behaving in a McCarthyite manner were predicated — and still are — on their disgusting smearing as Kremlin agents anyone who wanted evidence and proof before believing these inflammatory accusations about Russia.
To see the true face of this neo-McCarthyism, watch this amazing interview from this week with Democratic Rep. Adam Schiff, one of the party’s leading Russia hawks (he’s quoted in the Post article attacking Obama for not retaliating against Putin). When Schiff is repeatedly asked by the interviewer, Tucker Carlson, for evidence to support his allegation that Putin ordered the hacking of Podesta’s emails, Schiff provides none.
What he does instead is accuse Carlson of being a Kremlin stooge and finally tells him he should put his program on RT. That — which has become very typical Democratic rhetoric — is the vile face of neo-McCarthyism that Democrats have adopted this year, and nothing in this CIA leak remotely vindicates or justifies it:
Needless to say, questions about who hacked the DNC and Podesta email accounts are serious and important ones. The answers have widespread implications on many levels. That’s all the more reason these debates should be based on publicly disclosed evidence, not competing, unverifiable anonymous leaks from professional liars inside government agencies, cheered by drooling, lost partisans anxious to embrace whatever claims make them feel good, all conducted without the slightest regard for rational faculties or evidentiary requirements.
But, but, but,…It’s the absolute consensus, sort of, of 57 intelligence agencies that the Russians wrote “Yay Trump, KKK” on a woman’s hijab after drawing swastikas on the black Baptist synagogue she was attending, and then burning it down. Just how much proof do you need, Glenn?
Undoubtedly the unnamed source is Barak Hussain Obama.
i have to say, that I have generally been a fan of your work but your EXTREME Bias shows here. You know that there is a difference between the ppl who run the DOJ DOD etc, they are political stooges. The CIA ANALYSTS are A-Political.
It was CIA analysts who during briefing mentioned The Godfather of ISIS, in another terror camp in Iraq, with nothing to do with WMD’s or Sadamn Hussein. But Cheney, Rumsfield actually called the analyst who put together the briefing and asked her to change her report. The speech that Colin Powell gave, was totally off script from what the CIA said he should say. Iran Contra? Seriously? That was still during the Cold War, and most of the jokers cannot remember Bush Jr. The FBI is not A-Political. What James Comey did, violated the hatch act and it was because the group of FBI agents in NYC who hate hillary.
Whic you obviously do too, but using your credibility to dismantle something significant is a shame. Oh Well, who cares about loosing readers right?
Using the Bush WMD intelligence as an example is ridiculous. The actual CIA document was far different from whatever Tenet may have said to Bush. We know that because it was obtained under FOIA and it’s been published. The CIA said the opposite about WMD in the full report. I’d expect Mr. Greenwald to have read that…
Mr. Greenwald,
What do you believe of the Russian hacking plot? I believe that Putin wants sanctions dropped so he can build his personal wealth beyond the 86 billion dollars of the poor Russians money he already has. Common Russians live in poverty he lives like a king. He is the totalitarian leader of a kleptocracy. The bringing down of American democracy comes much later. So that as a motive is little weak. It could be a vendetta as thugs are predisposed to it. Don’t be stupid, “follow the money” will be the rallying call for democrats from now on. With Trump as president, I believe everything that isn’t nailed down, will be stolen. It’s already begun. If you can’t see that, your blind or maybe brainwashed. Stephen Mnuchin, what a great choice for Fed Chairman. Not.
The leaks have revolved around the internet worm fzzybear and cozybear for penetrating private servers. Now, I for one don’t believe that the CIA did it. Really? That’s pitiful and ridiculous. If I were a CIA operative I would be irate that they (the Russians) would think to do that to us. Again that’s something that a punk would do. Putin a classic punk and thug by US standards. He might be better thought of in Russia, but why would we go out of our way to back a douche murderer. I believe in what Reagan called them. I think only a fool would trust a man who took absolute power the way Putin did.
“I am also instructing James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, to arrange for briefings to any elector who wants one. Fifty-six electors have signed a letter asking for an intelligence briefing on Russia’s role in this election. They want access to the best possible information before they cast their votes. As president, I see it as my duty to provide it.” — The outgoing Nig-A !
JAMES CLAPPER ????
—————————————————————————————————–
So this MOFO is going to tell the truth to a bunch lower MOFOs ?
Gimme a break already !!
GEEZ ,, this is such a “PASS THE CRAP ” game .
SO IT GOES !!
Why would the CIA attempt to short cut “the actual, deliberative investigative process Obama had ordered”? Maybe because the CIA did the hacking and left phony evidence to make it look like Russia. I suspect that the CIA fears a vigorous investigation might uncover the CIA’s own efforts to get Trump elected (not to mention a sequence of characteristic October swing-state terror attacks orchestrated during both of Obama’s campaigns. The framed “perps” were either publicly identified as “Democratic Party Operatives” or superficially resembled members of Obama’s family, e.g. tall thin mulattos).
I found this article informative, but in light of the CIA’s long history of lying, it disturbs me that Glenn Greenwald seems to have believed the former CIA officials’ claims that they preferred Clinton hook, line, and sinker. I say they’re lying. All these CIA people wanted Trump, but they made sure they had a plan in place to retain power no matter who won. Pretending to support Clinton gave the same CIA power players a chance to get appointed CIA head if Clinton had won, and also provides cover so no one will imagine that the CIA conducted the hacks to get Trump elected.
Very good and well researched article. Thank you Glenn. I don’t always agree with Glenn, but he is the only writer who’s work I read on the Intercept. Glenn, please, keep us informed with real information and well researched news.
Along the lines of “how confused and lost U.S. political culture has become in the wake of Trump’s victory.” but with a longer, big-picture view, enjoy “Stepping Back from Trump’s Election: Critique of Underlying US Culture in a List – 25 Limitations”
http://www.culturechange.org/cms/content/view/961/1/
– Jan Lundberg, independent oil industry analyst, anti-plastics activist, musician
This is your excuse for helping to erect F… face von Clownstick?
Pathetic!
We already got one,no thanks.
leaks are not evidence?
whuuu .. ???
DocHollywood ? Bill Owen
December 14 2016, 9:01 p.m.
Hi Bill;
I genuinely appreciate your intent and what you say.
he is a troll.
he is a dupe
he is stupid
he can’t be an agent.
he’s merely a clownish diversion, not a distraction……..”
See what happens Doc when you start taking this to such an obsessive and personal level? You look childish and angry – and you don’t rebut a single political argument I make.
Thanks Doc
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“I don’t think[.]
I have described Chomsky as anti-American[, but I’m too ignorant to recognize that I did because] when you look at the description “world domination” then you can immediately see that this is how certain folks [like Chomsky] view the US[: the subtitle of one of his best selling books, Hegemony or Survival: America’s Quest for Global Dominance might be a clue for anyone as uninformed as me.
But I don’t bother to consider what I post. I obviously don’t know what I’m talking about.] There is nothing new or earth shattering about this.”
Damn, you are right Doc. Chomsky actually has a new book out which I plan to read. Maybe you have read it? “Hegemony or Survival: PNAC’s Quest to Initiate the Civil War in Syria”. Should be a good read……
Thanks Doc.
Pot -Mona- meets kettle -Mona-, again.
“You frequently mischaracterize others’ statements , and have done so here, repeatedly, where I am concerned. ”
Why do you bother linking to something as a reply to me? Is it your rational-wiki site? Does it warn of “cranks” as you call them? I have not looked even to see where you want to send me. Blind linkys are dangerous.
Please post an actual, rational, comment so we might sort all of this out.
I know, you have said you would ignore me, too, a few (million) times but, then you respond with a taunt or insult.
Somewhere in an analysis of the alleged Russian hacks I read that the malware used that supposedly has the “fingerprints” or the GRU had itself been infected with a virus or in some way made vulnerable to third-party use by independent hackers, so attribution is completely unreliable. Does anyone else recall reading this, and if so, where?
Meaningless, that software is out there, anyone can download and use it. http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/12/14/questions-for-the-electors-on-russian-hacking/
Sounds like more Russian disinformation. By the way, are you Russian? (correct answer: no I’m taking my time)
What I believe – a short essay by Craigsummers
Original text:
“I don’t think I have described Chomsky as anti-American. When you look at the descriptions like “evil nature, “world domination” or “holding the United States responsible for all the evils in the world” then you can immediately see that this is how certain folks view the US. There is nothing new or earth shattering about this. Obviously Joffe based his definition on experience.”
Slightly [edited] for clarity
I don’t think[.] I have described [everyone who doesn’t agree with me] as anti-American [or a Russian dupe because I explicitly trust anything the U.S. government says or does]. When [I] look at the descriptions like “evil nature, “world domination” or “holding the United States responsible for all the evils in the world” [I] can immediately [dismiss them out of hand because I am relying on only government disinformation] that [others don’t take as fact.] [T]his is how [I] view the US[:] There is nothing [the US can say or do that is wrong or unjust. There are no] earth shattering [facts that I would allow myself to believe that would threaten my unwavering belief in the USG and be a completely submissive pawn to their authority].
You are clearly better than the original (DocHollywood), but you need to cut out my original text above your interpretation. It gets to be too long. You can do this by posting directly below my post. By the way, please don’t get bogged down in PNAC conspiracy theories, OK?
Thanks. I look forward to more of your artistry.
Great job; two thumbs up!
I sincerely mean that, and I look forward to seeing more.
I always assumed it was the NSA that hacked DNC and Clinton campaign servers. They were supposed to have been very unhappy about prospect of Clinton winning. But as article suggests, it’s hard to know which agency, or who in which agency, is on who’s side. Personally, I see CIA as relic of Cold War and spy-game era. It’s grasping at straws in effort to ensure its survival. If Trump can do one good thing, it would be to mothball the CIA or ignore it into irrelevancy.
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“. . .I post at the Intercept, Guardian and elsewhere because I am a political hack.
[So if I just for once abandon my hypocrisy and] apply [to myself] the same arbitrary criticisms [of others that I have] been pressing for years, [it follows that] ‘Craig[summers] is simply a [pro-]American, self flattering (i.e. a liar) political hack who has zero credibility when it comes to Russian hackers and human rights activism.”
!!
DocHollywood, or is that DocBollywood?
“…….‘Craig[summers] is simply a [pro-]American……”
Anti-Americanism:
“……..German newspaper publisher and political scientist Josef Joffe suggests five classic aspects of the phenomenon: reducing Americans to stereotypes, believing the United States to have an irremediably evil nature, ascribing to the U.S. establishment a vast conspiratorial power aimed at utterly dominating the globe, holding the United States responsible for all the evils in the world, and seeking to limit the influence of the United States by destroying it or by cutting oneself and one’s society off from its polluting products and practices.[14]……[believing that defunct PNAC controls the policies of the Obama Administration]……..” my addition in brackets
The Intercept: making Joffe look like a genius!
That’s a caricature of what’s called “anti-American”, which is really just anti-imperialism. For example, would you say Noam Chomsky believes the US has a “irremediably evil nature”, when he has stated the opposite many times, and has explained that any power in the same position would behave the same way?
Now, wouldn’t you say the description you quote applies more accurately to the way you and most US centrists view Russia?
I don’t think I have described Chomsky as anti-American. When you look at the descriptions like “evil nature, “world domination” or “holding the United States responsible for all the evils in the world” then you can immediately see that this is how certain folks view the US. There is nothing new or earth shattering about this. Obviously Joffe based his definition on experience.
Wasn’t the USSR the evil empire? However, Russia does not fall into that category (with the possible exception of their war in Ukraine which is really fighting for a cold war concept of sphere of influence). Putin is pragmatic, authoritarian and understands what keeps him in power. He is a brilliant propagandists (as was Ahmadinejad).
Please don’t get distracted by trolls, agents, stupes or dupes. No one reads his comments anyway. Why would they? We have TIME magazine if we want to know what that entity ‘thinks’.
Nice to see you again Bill. I’ve missed you.
Hi Bill;
I genuinely appreciate your intent and what you say.
he is a troll.
he is a dupe
he is stupid
he can’t be an agent.
he’s merely a clownish diversion, not a distraction.
rrheard
“…… And why exactly do you have “credibility” to opine on Mr. Murray’s “credibility” in the arenas of Russian hackers and human rights activism? ”
Oh I don’t know, maybe by what he writes? Does that make sense? I really saw all that I needed to see from the one line I quoted from Murray’s blog. I’m not going to repeat it here, but it disqualified him as a human rights activist right away. According to the Guardian:
“……..In October 2002, Murray made a speech to his fellow diplomats and Uzbekistani officials at a human rights conference in Tashkent in which he became the first western official for four years to state publicly that “Uzbekistan is not a functioning democracy”, and to highlight the “prevalence of torture in Uzbekistani prisons” in a system where “brutality is inherent”. Highlighting a case in which two men were boiled to death, he added: “All of us know that this is not an isolated incident.”…..”
This IS courageous – exposing state torture. Yet the same idiot had the gall to say that “thankfully the four year agony of Aleppo comes swiftly to a close today”. He certainly must understand that based on pictures smuggled out of Syria that 25,000-50,000 people held in the Syrian regime detention died from torture, neglect, starvation and murder (and there are tens of thousands more still in detention). I would say that Assad’s record is far worse than the government of Uzbekistan. Murray cannot plead ignorance to the indiscriminate use of barrel bombs targeting hospitals and civilians by the regime (and Russia); the use of chemical weapons by Syria (documented by the UN); the destruction of Aleppo from Syrian and Russian bombers; and most importantly, he seems to ignore that Assad initiated the war to begin with. Amnesty International could write a book on Assad’s war crimes. Murray also cannot claim ignorance to the fact that people in Aleppo are seriously at risk for arrest, torture and detention after the rebels are defeated.
If you claim to be a human rights activist, put politics aside and act like one. It’s clear he can’t because – like his “friend” Assange – he is simply a far left wing political hack (thanks for reminding me).
As far as his credentials on the DNC hack and the claim that the theft was conducted by an insider, I certainly am not going to take his word for it. Let’s say the insider comes forward and the FBI is allowed to interrogate him. If he does turn out to be an “insider” (not a hack job), then Murray was right and I’m OK with that. That would be the truth. However, currently, we have three independent cyber-security firms and 17 intelligence departments in the US who are accusing the Russian of the hack based on evidence collected from the DNC computer i.e., Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear. That is far more convincing than what Murray has at the moment. Indeed, Edward Snowden also indicated that tracing a hacker is easy with Xkeyscore (Mackey article):
“…….Even if the attackers try to obfuscate origin, #XKEYSCORE makes following exfiltrated data easy. I did this personally against Chinese ops……”
Can you imagine China hacking into US private business and the government? For shame. You can now return to what you are good at – apologizing for US policies past and present and suing people online.
ISRAEL PROVIDES HACKING AGAINST US & CITIZENS
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/10/digital_blackwater_meet_the_contractors_who_analyze_your_personal_data/
How’s Haifa?
Seen Jesus lately?
LEAKS! NOT HACKED
Wouldn’t you know it? Lots of subcontractors lied and propagandised to influence the election.
Who killed Seth Rich?
Way too many premature deaths in the Clintons rise to be just a co-incidence.
Somebodies working behind the scenes and probably still are.
The state-operated New York Times is reporting today that what crowdstrike found on the DNC computer did indeed link to the Russian government (Following the Links From Russian Hackers to the U.S. Election http://nyti.ms/2a0zep8}:
“……..The Central Intelligence Agency concluded that the Russian government deployed computer hackers to help elect Donald J. Trump…….”
July 2015
Federal Security Service
“……..A hacking group possibly linked to the agency, the main successor to the K.G.B., entered Democratic National Committee servers undetected for nearly a year, security researchers said. The group was nicknamed Cozy Bear, the Dukes or A.P.T. 29 for “advanced persistent threat.”……” – reported by NYT
March 2016
G.R.U.: Military Intelligence
“………Investigators believe that the G.R.U., or a hacking group known as Fancy Bear or A.P.T. 28, was the second group to break into the D.N.C., but it has played a bigger role in releasing the committee’s emails…..”.- reported by NYT
WikiLeaks
“…….The website released about 50,000 emails from the Democratic National Committee’s computer servers. It is unclear how WikiLeaks obtained the emails. But Russian intelligence agencies are prime suspects, researchers said…..” reported by NYT
In my honest (and neutral) opinion, there is little doubt that the Russian intelligence services worked with Assange to release the information (probably through a third party). The political motivation for Assange makes this accusation reasonable considering his anti-American view point. He almost certainly knew the emails came from Russian intelligence services. Assange is a really a scumbag (in my neutral opinion).
Again, no. First, there’s no evidence linking FancyBear to the Russian government. That link appears to be a guess. Second, the material Wikileaks released was much more interesting and comprehensive than anything released by Guccifer 2.0 or DCLeaks. It seems quite plausible that it didn’t come from Guccifer 2.0. It might have not come from a leak at all. The article admits the source of Wikileaks material is unknown. Third, there are indications that Guccifer 2.0 is fairly naive about covering his tracks.
Jose
“……..Again, no. First, there’s no evidence linking FancyBear to the Russian government. That link appears to be a guess……”
In fact, Crowdstrike has a lot of experience with Fancy Bear and Cozy Bear (http://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/):
“………CrowdStrike Services Inc., our Incident Response group, was called by the Democratic National Committee (DNC), the formal governing body for the US Democratic Party, to respond to a suspected breach. We deployed our IR team and technology and immediately identified two sophisticated adversaries on the network – COZY BEAR and FANCY BEAR. We’ve had lots of experience with both of these actors attempting to target our customers in the past and know them well. In fact, our team considers them some of the best adversaries out of all the numerous nation-state, criminal and hacktivist/terrorist groups we encounter on a daily basis. Their tradecraft is superb, operational security second to none and the extensive usage of ‘living-off-the-land’ techniques enables them to easily bypass many security solutions they encounter. In particular, we identified advanced methods consistent with nation-state level capabilities including deliberate targeting and ‘access management’ tradecraft – both groups were constantly going back into the environment to change out their implants, modify persistent methods, move to new Command & Control channels and perform other tasks to try to stay ahead of being detected. Both adversaries engage in extensive political and economic espionage for the benefit of the government of the Russian Federation and are believed to be closely linked to the Russian government’s powerful and highly capable intelligence services…….”
There is nothing set in concrete, but the independent identification of Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear strongly implicates the Russian government. Is this really so surprising?
I think FancyBear is Guccifer 2.0, and Guccifer 2.0 is probably just some guy (perhaps Russian) seeking attention. Again, there’s nothing to suggest much sophistication as CrowdStrike suggests. We’re talking about simple methods of attack (e.g. phishing). Beyond that, it seems to me that Wikileaks got material that didn’t come from Guccifer 2.0.
Why create this Guccifer 2.0 persona at all and these silly websites? What is there to gain from that? It feels like a very amateurish operation.
I doubt this can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt so there is no reason to accept that Russia is behind the hack if you choose not to.
Thanks.
it seems like the persons behind the Hillary effort are concerned that President Trump will discover who killed Seth Rich and why.
It’s a subjective article. Both cozy bear group and fancy bear group have been involved in a lot of intrusions. Many of these intrusions are not aligned with russian interests or would be deemed against russian interests.
While this particular breach may have served russian interests to disrupt our electoral process, their is once again, no smoking gun that indicates Russian state involvement.
With all the evidence that’s been provided, you could say lizard squad who is famous for it’s DDOS attacks has been acting at russias behest.
Crowdstrike’s own assessment throws out a lot of technical detail for the average joe. What it essentially states is any guy and his cousin with a professional skillset in cyber security could have perpetrated this. Which once again, tells us nothing.
If nothing else, the russian government really stopped giving a shit in 2014. Meaning, their intelligence sources changed the way they engaged in their cyber proliferation. Prior to 2014, once these people were discovered, they disappeared and engaged in counter forensic’s. Post 2014, no fucks are given. They get discovered, they literally do not care, and do not disappear. This is a noticed behavior by every single cyber security firm.
I’m a firm believer in common sense, but no the shoe doesn’t fit.
The real tragedy in all of this and what should scare people the most is that no one seems to really care about the political corruption. Moreover, that revealing it, no matter who did it, is considered a disruption to our electoral process.
“……..Crowdstrike’s own assessment throws out a lot of technical detail for the average joe. What it essentially states is any guy and his cousin with a professional skillset in cyber security could have perpetrated this. Which once again, tells us nothing……”
Totally unpersuasive. No links, nothing of value. Just a bunch of denials on behalf of the Russian government. The intrusion was so simple, even a caveman could do it. Right and Geico can save you 20% on your car insurance……
Thanks.
“or painting yourself [-Mona-] out as being victimized by this particular commenter’s ravings”
Indeed, Mona warped Pizzagate into real harm like witch burning or some bullshit.
She edits a blog that warns everyone of what crazy folks are capable of. She has a long history of warning the board who is too crazy to respond to … as if we can’t figure that out.
Reply.
America’s hacking panic
Hey Glenn, do you care to tell your readers why you used an anonymous second leaker in the Snowden affair. Why should we believe what you say? Or does that inconvenient truth violate your comment policy? https://www.yahoo.com/news/feds-identify-suspected–second-leaker–for-snowden-reporters-165741571.html?ref=gs
as the article says, that anonymous leaker turned over *documents*, rather than saying the CIA *believes* such-and-such happened even though it has no smoking gun.
you need to be careful reading yahoo headlines….
what matters is that Hillary lost
the Dems were crushed
The Russia-did-it scam is being exposed for the garbage it is.
The conflict in Syria is OVER and Russia did that!
US intervention in the middle east is criminal
the CIA lies most of the time
president obama despises whistleblowers and loves corruption
the YINON PLAN is washed up
If you don’t understand something as basic as the difference between an anonymous leaker and an anonymous government official, you have no business trying to start an argument here.
“she should stop addressing me on this website”
Then you should stop posting all together or at least change your style by providing some evidence or better logic for your inflammatory statements.
This is an interactive site. Albeit, Mona is a rather zealous personality, she has every right to post here, just as you do.
You can’t really believe that you just post stuff and expect someone not challenge it, do you? Really?
I would also like to say, that I believe you have every right to post your ideas or opinions, (even if I disagree with them) but then Mona or anyone else also has the right to challenge your opinions and positions.
Also, starting off a new post with terms like “vicious”, “lying”, “abusive” and “troll” aren’t going to draw you any positive comments from her.
Galactus, she reported me to the FBI. Or at least she says she did. (The FBI doesn’t even have fucking jurisdiction over defamation claims, even if I had libeled her, which I did not do.)
That is abominable. I’ve been active in Occupy, and more recently in Black Lives Matter. The FBI is inclined already to have files on people like me. What she says she’s done is outrageous.
How’s that working out for you so far?
Have you called the agencies she has purportedly “reported you” to in such an “unspeakably vile manner” and asked them if she actually has, or the status of those reports? If not why not? That would seem more productive than engaging her here or legitimizing her lunacy by suggesting how horrible horrible horrible and vile and abominable all those purported actions are by some poor impoverished woman in India who appears to be struggling with some serious issues?
I mean just a tip from someone who loves a good internet dustup as much as the next guy, but it is a lot more fun for the reader when you find clever ways to mock and deride a loony interlocutor (assuming you feel so compelled other than to just ignore him/her) than actually treating his/her claims as serious or legitimate, which you do using the rhetoric of how “vile”, “abominable”, “outrageous” and “bizarre” et al such purported actions said interlocutor has taken against you are, instead of appearing like you are being victimized by them in the real world.
Now outrageous and bizarre aren’t half bad, but how about “cuckoo for cocoa puffs” or “nuttier than squirrel shit” or “batshit insane” or maybe even try to throw in some good descriptors like birdbrained, brainless, boobish, preposterous, buffoonish, clownish, empty-headed, witless, mindless, daft, dippy, half-baked, . . . .
Just sayin.
Seriously, just my $0.02, but you really aren’t doing yourself any favors other than to mock or ignore here, because you just appear to legitimize her ravings by responding to them as if they were serious.
Spare me your wisdom. I can do without it, considering you make no valid points.
Feel feel to ignore me. In fact, I would encourage you to ignore me.
I don’t respond to persons who attack commenters personally. That is what you are doing. Another Mona enabler I might add.
“Spare me your wisdom”
Sure, just spare us the horsesh*t comments you spew that are just looney and stoopid.
I encourage you to offer some proof and better analysis along with some reasonable logic….not circular gibberish.
as i said spare me your comments. Ignore me.
I do not respond to abusive trash like you.
“abusive trash like you”
This is exactly my point Seema. Each new post actually is an opportunity to NOT make these sort of inflammatory statements.
Both you and Mona carry grudges just a little too far.
If you want to be ignored, then don’t post. Calling someone ‘abusive trash’ will get you a response. So, No, I won’t simply let you have your way and just call me trash without responding.
Grow up.
Information Glenn Greenwald and his idol Vladimir Putin don’t want you to see: The Mitrokhin Archive and propornot.com Mitrokhin was the Soviet version of Snowden. Except when Russians do it it’s called being a traitor, not a whistle blower.
What are you babbling about exactly? The Mitrokhin Archive is a collection of hand written notes made by a KGB archivist prior to 1992. Propornot.com is a site that pretends to blacklist non-centrist media outlets as “Russian propaganda mouthpieces” based on nothing, and which further tells us:
What does one have to do with the other?
Trump has as well as admitted doing the hacking himself “Trump said US cyber attacks could have been committed by a 400-pound person “sitting on a bed” http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/08/19/world/giggles-fly-till-union-squares-nude-emperor-donald-statue-yanked/#.WFAbin3xJqo
Still no proof. All the CIA has said this entire time is, “The Russian did it. The Russians hacked us, and it affected the way people voted.” Really? So, you are saying that a corrupt organization was revealed to the public as being corrupt (DNC) and we are supposed to be mad at Russia? No. The CIA is scapegoating because their candidate did not win. End of story. Also, this shows how stupid the CIA and the Media thinks American citizens actually are. “You were all persuaded by the release of all those emails!” Or maybe us Americans were fed up with the lies disseminated by the CIA. If the Russians really did hack the DNC they did the American public a HUGE service. We should be focused on the authors of those emails, and the intent of the DNC to rig the election; an election the DNC LOST. Toddler Tantrum Triggered! HAhahahaha
Hacking the democrats is a public service. Failing to release Republican emails is an even BIGGER public service. Thank you Russia!
The CIA is obviously quite apprehensive of a Trump POTUS.
I wonder why?:)
Are the MSM asking US to believe Trump or the CIA?Duh.
But I’m sure many once fervent anti CIA demoncrats will now reverse course like JK windsurfers.F*cking hypocrites.
Again,will someone point out one tangible productive act by the CIA in its history?(sssh…its classified-ho ho)
Brought to us all live from The Yehuda Triangle..
(New York – London – Tel Aviv)
They issued an assessment but they haven’t released it for public consumption. Why is that? What is it they’re hiding?
The CIA has a penchant for lying this country in to wars and chaos. They are literally the tip of the spear of the war machine. I suspect that’s what they’re doing now.
“Why is that? What is it they’re hiding?”
I suspect that Assange/Murray are correct. The leaker is an “insider” That would mean someone either on the Clinton Campaign team or someone inside the DNC.
They (the CIA) would not want to disclose this for the following reason(s):
1. It could be an admission of spying on US citizens
2. It would mean they are conducting investigations on US citizens
Both, I believe, are against US law.
There is 1 huge problem with your analysis: by definition spy agencies cannot present the evidence they acquired because it would reveal their sources and tactics. So this can never be discussed openly in the public domain. If you claim that makes it impossible to say anything about these Russian hacks, you’re basically agreeing to roll over and die to the Russians.
That, and it’s not like *nobody* is seeing the evidence–they’re sharing it with Congress, and even the GOP leadership appears to be taking notice. Glenn is a great investigative voice, but he’s glibly trotting past that little point.
Take a chill pill.
What the hell does Russia want from US?Fracked oil?When they have more untapped energy possibly than anyone else?
Our trillion dollar deficit treasure?
You are worked up over nonsense,Russia might have wanted Trump,but like everyone else,they thought HRC a lock.Why would they jeopardize an already precarious relationship,caused by US aggression in Ukraine,Georgia and the ME?No way,as Russia is not historically an instigator in the first place,its usually reactive.Slow to saddle,quick to ride.
Poppycock from zion.
This is either an attempted coup by the Democrats in an attempt to strip away electoral College voters or the worlds biggest temper tantrum. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that shows why the Obama intelligence agency believes this other than motive. Intelligence agencies work with who and how and do not rely on why. Conjuring up a motive and drawing a conclusion based off of that is the exact opposite of what intelligence agencies do. So there are reports of who and why that say nothing about how. That is bogus politicized intelligence. Valid intelligence always focuses on how first.
“Tell me, what kind of hoopla will Greenwald and the public raise if they do find out it’s a leaker (US Citizen) and that it actually WAS the CIA who determined it? ie….a Domestic issue..”. -Galactus
The same kind of ‘hoopla’ that was raised after structure-fires reduced 3 buildings to rubble in a matter of mere seconds..
The fuk`all kind of hoopla..
next
Good to see you back, ‘donger … back, back in the U.S.S.R.
*i’ll show you around the smokey mountains way down south, take you to my daddy’s farm. You don’t know how lucky you are boy … back, back in the U.S.S.R.
“The same kind of ‘hoopla’ that was raised after structure-fires reduced 3 buildings to rubble in a matter of mere seconds”
Exactly.
So, here’s the $64,000 question for you:
Which USG agency would be most offended (ie…cause a ‘riff’) if this scenario were true?….ie,….inter-agency dispute or disagreement.
I’ll give you a hint. It’s Greenwald’s 3rd bolded bullet in this article.
The reply lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“No, it was actually the [truth] which bothered me:
“. . .As thankfully the four year agony of Aleppo comes swiftly to a close today, the Saudi and US armed and trained ISIS forces counter by moving to retake Palmyra. This game kills people, on a massive scale, and goes on and on. . .”
[I would prefer to ignore reality and instead] give the A[merican and Saudi] regime[s] a free ride when it comes to [cluster] bombs, [supplying money, logistical support, and] weapons [to ISIS], the death[s] of 2
5000-50000[hundreds of thousands of innocent] people in [wars of aggression], targeting of hospitals[, markets, schools, weddings, funerals] and civilians – and even the start of the war[s] by [the US which planned “to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran,” according to General (retired) Wesley Clark, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.When not bombing and invading their countries, the US has consistently thwarted] democracy [for] the Arab[s in the ME by giving ‘free rides’ to many brutal dictators from Egypt to Iran to Saudi Arabia; it even supported Saddam Hussein at the time he was carrying-out some of his worst atrocities, going so far as to supply him with the necessary components to make the chemical weapons he used against the Kurds.
I would really just like to be left to my hypocrisy].”
Hey, better late than never. Nice post.
Seems you have a doppelganger mimicking you calling himself/herself Doc Bollywood.
Not quite the same flare as you, but fun nonetheless.
Cheers
DocHollywood missed the point (albeit purposely). If I had a blog, there would be nothing at the top claiming I am a “human rights activist”. I’m not. I post at the Intercept, Guardian and elsewhere because I am a political hack. Craig Murray isn’t a human rights activist either – nor is anyone else that sweeps the war crimes and atrocities committed by the Assad regime under the carpet. The four year agony of people in East Aleppo isn’t nearly over, and even if it was, Assad caused it in the first place. That is lost on DocHollywood who seems to believe that the US planned to start the war in Syria in 1998 at a PNAC conference. You simply lose all ability to reason when you are that driven by opposition to American policies. This happens to people like Doug Salzmann who believes that the 2014 elections in Syria were “valid”.
Craig Murray is simply an anti-American, self flattering (i.e. a liar) political hack who has zero credibility when it comes to Russian hackers and human rights activism. DocHollywood misused my post to apply the same arbitrary criticisms and conspiracy theories about US foreign policy that he has been pressing for years.
Thanks.
The Nerve >…”claiming I am a “human rights activist”. I’m not. I post at the Intercept, Guardian and elsewhere because I am a political hack.”
“Ready”, “Fire”, “Aim” . h/t Maisie
Nice name calling. You forgot “radical leftist” though, which really detracts from the overall tenor of your comment.
And why exactly do you have “credibility” to opine on Mr. Murray’s “credibility” in the arenas of Russian hackers and human rights activism?
<blockquote
If I had a blog, there would be nothing at the top claiming I am a “human rights activist”. I’m not. I post at the Intercept, Guardian and elsewhere because I am a political hack.
So your opinion is that you are “political hack” and Craig Murray is a “political hack” as well.
Does that mean that you share this same bio of life’s work and achievements:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Murray
Say what you want about the Murray’s private life, but every time he’s been threatened with a lawsuit, the plaintiffs have all given up trying to advance his/her/their claims against him. It appears he’s quite confident, and can prove any allegations he makes, particularly of the type of allegations he made against the Uzbekistan government, its oligarchs, and various UK and US officials or agencies on the subject of torture.
Now of course someone like you might refer to someone who put their professional livelihood and career on the line to actually speak out, or speak truth to power, on the topic of human rights violations and/or complicity in same by his own government, to be a “political hack”. But that’s because you are about as far from a defender of “human rights” or willing to speak truth to power as just about anybody who has ever posted in these threads. In fact, quite the opposite, you are a defender of human rights abuses and their abusers.
So I guess we can all judge for ourselves who is closer to being a “human rights activist” in the world and who isn’t, and who is a “political hack” and who isn’t. IMHO, Craig Murray is the former based on his life and work, whereas you are the latter based on, well, the apparent fact that you comment on the internet about shit until recently you didn’t even understand how to link to (unlike Craig Murray).
Sorry about typo not ending that blockquote.
I really think you should append the above to every comment you post. It’s about the most honest thing you’ve ever posted in these threads, and just about says it all about who you are and how you think about the world.
Or you could simply say “I’m a political know-nothing hack who posts on the Internet, who recently learned like 6th graders the world over how to link to a source on the Internet and then talk out my ass about it, just like a 6th graders the world over.”
That would be pretty accurate as well, and not to malign the intellectual or moral integrity of the average global 6th graders, as by all appearances they are more advanced in both categories than you are.
Thanks; I’ve been on vacation.
I haven’t seen Doc Bollywood’s work yet, but another editor for the hypocrite is always welcome.
If there’s something called “Doc Bollywood” posting here, I haven’t noticed it.
Definition of propaganda, webster’s college, 2nd ed.
* Information or publicity put out by an organization or government to spread and promote a policy, idea, doctrine, or cause.
Propaganda, that’s what this is..and no, I don’t mean this fine article, I mean what our government and “media” is now peddling big-time.
Propaganda regarding “evidence” they have that Russia influenced the election..
Propaganda surrounding so-called fake news..
Propaganda that is leading to very real censorship.
The House and Senate just recently passed “anti propaganda” legislation, seeking to be given the authority to blacklist, even ban websites that they deem a threat. How presumptious of them!
The “House” vote, because that’s exactly what it is, was around 390-10 for Censorship. .yay..
It seems that Government is on trial right now…a public trial, you might say, as many people are paying attention attentively.
Are they gonna fess up that evidence that they’ve been claiming they have,, on and off and then on again, for the past six months?
No “well, we’ve GOT the damning evidence, but we’d be endangering national security if we let you proles see it”..that shit doesn’t fly any longer..
We want the evidence..and it has to be PUBLIC with FULL DISCLOSURE.
I mean, not only are these claims damning and inflammatory to Russia, which ultimately puts my ass in more jeopardy, and even more damning and inflammatory towards the President-elect Donald Trump..but the biggest travesty is how they are trying to subvert our basic human rights by imposing Censorship on us all, because of their very own propaganda that they peddle!(psst,; I’m talking to you too EU, didn’t you just pass some Draconian censorship “legislation” as well?)…
Freedom of speech? They are legislating away our freedom of speech, and if you get right down to it, our freedom of “thought”, right before our very eyes..
We’re getting into uncharted territories here, as this very public trial continues..
In the words of the Great Obfuscater Donald Rumsfeld, “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
If it had been 0 who gave that circuitous speech he’d be called an eleventh dimensional chess player.
Oh,ok,12th.
Exclusive: Top U.S. spy agency has not embraced CIA assessment on Russia hacking – sources | Reuters
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN14204E?il=0
You two ” Gals” must stop this nonsense . Your audience is entitled to more than a ” Hissy Fit ” ! We expect good reporting .
I suggest a Liverwurst Sandwich , on Rye , with mustard , and a pickle on the side .
Wadda ya’ll think ,,,huh ?
Yeah Seema ,
You got it because I promised Mona no more replies .
S-I-G-H ~~~
It’s really a spot upon my soul to have visited this of-no-consequence circle jerk . But ,, Alas ,, I’m part of it ,, the Human Species !!
May the FORCE HELP US !!
A number of commenters here “reason” à la Humpty Dumpty:
Seema, hillfarmer, quite a few others.
“Enhanced Interrogation” , said Dick Cheney to George W. Bush
Well, that’s euphemism. To avoid the clear meaning of the proper term. Dick Cheney is many things, but intellectually impaired is not one of them. He can reason, and understands perfectly well why “enhanced interrogation” was the “necessary” phrase.
His a murderer !! Of Women and children !!
And you Mona need to look in a MIRROR !!
This is the most ludicrous ,, the most sociopathtic reply I have ever seen .
Ok, yeah, I forgot — you are an irrational crank.
Newsflash: Joseph Stalin also was not shorted in the IQ department. To understand that monsters can reason is not to be a “sociopath.” Altho at some point he likely crossed over into clinical paranoia (and was not wholly rational), when he distorted words and employed euphemism, he generally understood what he was doing.
Lee Fang pointed out on Twitter that when US officials discovered Chinese state-sponsored hacking into the U.S., they named names & issued an indictment.
Is there an ” ONGOING INVESTIGATION ” or might I reply ?
My reply is simple :
The peasants will revolt upon starvation and thirst .
The Status Quo will respond accordingly :
1—- Hire COPS
2—- Hire MORE COPS
3—- KIll the Mother Fu-kers
4—- Wadda ya mean ,, TREES ,, ? Forget about TREES ,,, KILLL !!!!
5—- But the ‘INTELLIGENTSIA” says ” It’s all just WORDS ”
6 — Here’s the word ” NUKE IT !!! ”
Go JETS !!!
Glenn, or somebody… I wish you’d explain how leaks should work in modern news media. Is it better not to say anything even though the info is highly relevant and individuals with the info are willing to share anonymously. But if the story is vital and evidence is presented, couldn’t it compromise intel gathering ability and possibly put lives at risk?
What should news provider do?
And while thinking of evidence, where’s the evidence that the WikiLeaks disclosures about the DNC and Clinton weren’t partly ginned up before they were given to WikiLeaks?
L
Now, the left-wing media is passing out tin foil hats to everyone in sight and telling them to start hyperventilating about the “Russians defeated Hillary” narrative until a “consensus” is reached among them all. When a sufficient number of delusional leftists achieve a uniform hallucination that blames Hillary Clinton’s defeat on someone other than Hillary Clinton, the shared hallucination is then deemed a “fact.” The fact is this is just another Clinton OP gone belly up!
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a49902/the-russian-emigre-leading-the-fight-to-protect-america/
There is only one ‘source’ behind all the election hacking hulabaloo,it’s Crowd Strike; America’s premium cyber attack specialists. The rest of it is repeating the story to develop credibility.
They been in on all the biggies if not preventing very much they are johnnies on the spot for applying their patented software and finding out f there is anybody on your network who shouldn’t be on your network. They claim not only to find the ratholes in software and design where the rodents crept in . the claim to be able to tell the network owners where the rodents crapped and, creeping back out, where they took their looted files.
These were the yobbos who tagged the Norks for splurging Sony prawduct all over the internet or free. They helped the Germans find out what was wrong with the Bundestag site – it had been hacked!. They pegged the Russians mooching around the servers of some of Americas top enterprises and they’ve identified the same family of ‘bears’ fouling the DNC server. In fact they’ve even traced them back to the identical same server in Russia – the same one they used for their 2015 campaign. Imagine that: a ‘cutting-edge’ highly technical and sophisticated spy agency that doesn’t know spot one about internet anonymity! It’s good that these ‘spy agencies’ make it so easy from the bozos at Crowd Strike. They are so busy chasing them down they just have to be worth every dollar they charge.
Too bad they can’t prevent anything. Yet – maybe just a few more millions for the breakthrough?
Then, there’s this
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/12/avalanche-crime-ring-leader-eludes-justice/
We don’t necessarily have to depend on anonymous sources. The security community seems to think there is a pretty clear case for Russian involvement.
—–
Streamed live on Dec 8, 2016
Since the June 2016 announcement that the Democratic National Committee (DNC) had been breached by two Russia-based threat groups known as FANCY BEAR and COZY BEAR, the story has evolved from a presumed espionage operation into a series of strategic leaks and conflicting attribution claims. In this presentation, we’ll demonstrate techniques used to identify additional malicious infrastructure, assess the validity of the Guccifer 2.0 persona and other outlets like DCLeaks, and the strength of the attribution analysis.
Toni Gidwani is the Director of Research Operations at ThreatConnect and leads ThreatConnect’s research team, an elite group of globally-acknowledged cybersecurity experts dedicated to tracking down existing and emerging cyber threats. Prior to joining ThreatConnect, Toni led analytic teams in the U.S. Department of Defense. She is an adjunct faculty member at Georgetown University.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qi5T8B4-nU&sns=fb
interesting that we dont hear anything about the US hacking Russian systems. Also could be that American systems, some of them, are utter crap and easy to hack. Gee, i wonder which ones that might be….
I assume that US is actively hacking Russian systems—we’re not very successful, and/or the Russians keep their mouths shut about it.
And the word is that yes, both DNC and RNC servers were absurdly easy to hack, and lacked basic security. Astounding.
The New Red Scare.
http://harpers.org/archive/2016/12/the-new-red-scare/
Greenwald remains happily in the pocket of the Russian dictator and his American puppet. Useful stooge or willing propagandist, either way he sounds as always like a press release from Tass.
Aww… that’s cute! Did you come up with it all by yourself?
The. Best. Ever.
Here’s the bottom line, and some commenters here aren’t understanding what’s at stake here.
But here it is for those who don’t get it. Work the counterfactual:
Donald Trump wins the popular vote, but Hillary Clinton wins key electoral votes in MI, WI, PA and FL thereby winning and becoming President-Elect.
Supporters of Donald Trump, together with the FBI, accuse Leftist Maoist China of hacking and releasing throughout the election inflammatory but TRUE information about Donald Trump thereby purportedly providing narrow margins of victory to Hillary Clinton in key states.
Same Trump supporters set about trying to figure out a way to flip the allotted electors to keep the Maoist Clinton from being inaugurated, and are successful.
As a leftist/liberal/progressive in America, do you just sit back on your haunches howling and crying into your microbrew or cappuccino and just let Donald Trump’s supporters upend the initial electoral college results, and flip a bunch of electors post election to ultimately seat Trump as POTUS instead, or because he won the popular vote?
I seriously doubt it. That’s what’s at stake here. You delegitimize and steal an election from your fellow citizens, who followed the rules, and won under the rules both candidates (parties) agreed to, and you might as well assume America is done and there will be massive bloodshed if not Civil War in the streets of America.
That’s what we’re talking about in trying to do something foolish like prevent Trump from being rightfully inaugurated via some sort of “electors gambit”. Has never before happened in America and I hope to hell it doesn’t happen now. Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of, and anyone suggesting it is borderline delusional and un-American.
If Donald Trump and the GOP attempts to suspend the rule of law, future elections or impose martial law, they’ll be plenty of time for a civil war in the streets of America. But until then we are obligated as Americans to peacefully abide by the legitimate election results that our fellow citizens obtained on behalf of their preferred candidate, and then push back with every legal tool at our disposal, organizing and civil disobedience if necessary to stop the worst of his and the GOPs agenda. But that’s as good as it gets, so you should get your brains wrapped around that before something really bad happens trying to dick around with legitimate election results because some people don’t like or fear who your fellow citizens elected.
That’s the only way America has ever worked, or ever will work. And if you don’t understand that you have zero business being an American.
Could not have said it better…..I’m with you…..
Amen.
see what i mean?
the plan B has to be prescribed and in place prior to events that would take America into a darker place.
Call the convention. Re-declare independence. Upgrade the constitution. Implement it. And change the currency system. Until then, everything else is just a patch on a mummified system.
rr, what you said was perfect. What will happen in future elections? The oligarchy will get to determine(even more than they already do) who wins, because the votes of the citizens will have become essentially meaningless. If the party elites somehow come up with someone who is not acceptable to the banks and the war profiteers, and that person wins, there are seventeen fucking intelligence agencies in the US who can come up with some bullshit reason to throw aside the vote for the sake of the oligarchs.
I think martial law is more than just a possibility here. The police are already militarized, and the oil barons and others would welcome the ability to crush dissent surrounding pipelines and the environment.
rr- Now throw into your model the FACTS that in several key state elections (MI, PA & WI) the margins of victory determining electoral vote are so thin that a few questionable and illegal factors likely changed the outcome of the vote… documented malfunctioning voting machines which are not allowed to be examined (PA), laws prohibiting recount in precincts where any irregularities appear (MI) and a plethora of blocks to monitoring and recounting in WI… Wouldn’t the Trumpsters be justified in raising hell and calling for monitored revotes with transparent tallying?
If that were the case we all know, based on what has been threatened by Trump and his supporters, that they’d be in the streets calling for civil war and insurrection.
Loved this so much I tweeted it!
I figured you would not mind.
https://twitter.com/Bill_Owen/status/809099279822454792
Very good comments.
Might I point out however, that the fix was in for HRC,by MSM media manipulation,slander and demonization of Trump as never before in our history,a full throated cacophony of BS right up to election day,so the Trump partisans would have had very legitimate reasons for anger,unlike this contrived BS from our actual democracy manipulator zion,the real foreign influence on US.
A rather different scenario.
And haven’t post election events proven the absolute disaster she would have been,with her backroom post election crap,and her total lack of denunciation of the twisted anti democratic narrative being put before US?
An evil pos.
Love Glen Greenwald’s articles!
Yes, he is a power house, and important to support and share/publicize his work. (unfortunately the troll/comments usually are not quite up to the quality of GG)…anyway, as MSM is completely corrupted.. think we do need to OCCUPY the MEDIA… create and share well founded and documented information… and if possible, meaningful dialogue (not troll vs troll) would be good… see our little addition here-“OCCUPY THE MEDIA” https://youtu.be/d2xnms84N3c Please share, subscribe, like, etc! Discussion of some of the best alternative progressive media sources. Please add in comments your own recommendations.
My personal policy is to completely ignore trolls or posters who add nothing of substance or comment only to disrupt. Responding to such characters only encourages them.
You’d have to get vocabularies first. Racist and sexist and 1% aren’t enough.
There’s a more involved, wide-ranging story here. It’s not just the recent curtailment and evisceration of constitutionally-guaranteed civil rights under Bush and Obama, McCarthyism of the past, and now this newest iteration of McCarthyism that is part of how civil liberties in the U.S. have historically suffered specifically due to mass hysteria (which then justifies all kinds of transgressions). There is also the instructive story of Japanese-Americans being “interned” during WWII. Their story exemplifies how recklessly those who are entrusted with protecting the Constitution eschew critical, ethical, moral and legal reasoning for expediency sake. In the case of Japanese-Americans, 120, 000 innocent people lost all their belongings and were put in, what amounted to, prisons. I’ve personally heard the stories from survivors, and none of them (nor anybody else to my knowledge) was ever convicted of anything. They were merely victims of innuendo and guilt by association. So much for due process.
To be sure, being entrusted with securing the safety of a nation is an onerous task. But, we should ask, Were there really no other alternatives, or does this decision, as well as others, typify an attitude among some that Constitutionally-enshrined rights are essentially optional and dispensing with them is just more convenient? Moreover, we should be asking whether or not we have learned from history, or if we are once again now going down a slippery slope? But by far the most important question is, When will this nation begin practicing what it preaches, whether it’s treating people with the inalienable rights they supposedly have, or not meddling in others’ internal affairs? We are no shining example to hold up to others and we wreak of hypocrisy. Unfortunately, the dictum “might makes right” is what still rules the day: a rather Neanderthalian consciousness that is the bane of civilized man.
The CIA, for decades, has interfered with elections and installed dictaters, el presidentes, etc in other countries. Now they want to install one in the United States.
Glenn, why not initiate some serious investigative efforts regarding the DNC hacks? After all, you could start with your contacts in Wikileaks and your friend Assange in London. I think these hacks are the cyber equivalent of Watergate. In this case, the principals could be the Trump/Republican campaign operatives, the Russian/East European hackers working for Putin, and the distributor Wikileaks. Of course, there was likely an internal mole inside the DNC who provided access. (Means, Motive, & Opportunity?)
Aleppo residents celebrate full libration from militants
20m ago
http://presstv.com/Detail/2016/12/12/497619/aleppo-liberation-celebration-syria
ok – now they can say, RUSSIA DID IT.
and without a no-fly-zone
Trump fan, hillfarmer, is anxious to see The Washington Post prosecuted for purportedly publishing pieces that are “the geopolitical [equivalent] of yelling ‘fire’ in a crowded room.” As with most commentary on free speech or a free press from Trump or his supporters, this authoritarian is nonsense.
Lawyer Ken White has addressed pro-censorship arguments many times and in many contexts. The hackneyed “fire in a theater” garbage turns up from many lazy minds. As White writes, my emphasis:
yeabut – we are at war, always at war now. The british spyguy has declared that Russian actions are a threat to Britain. Hillary has just as well deemed Russia to be an enemy of the state. And the WAPO is acting in a subversive fashion as if to pair up the President Elect as a Russian spy.
i think that’s yelling fire in a theatre.
No. And as I indicated with citation to Ken White, only fools the lazy, and authoritarians invoke that cheesy nullity.
Ken makes that most clear in a separate analysis that has been widely cited and quoted by smart people — usually other civil libertarians — all over: Three Generations of a Hackneyed Apologia for Censorship Are Enough
It’s particularly troubling when the words “ready” and “aim” are said before the word “fire,” under any circumstances.
andrew rei,
fake news called, and they want their headlines back…
For those so inclined: change.org has a petition going to try to get the NY AG to bring the question of proportional representation before SCOTUS.
Urge NY Attorney General to bring a case to the US Supreme Court for a Clinton victory
https://www.change.org/p/new-york-attorney-general-eric-schneiderman-urge-ny-attorney-general-to-bring-a-case-to-the-us-supreme-court-for-a-clinton-victory
WHA!?
This whole russia-did-it thing is conjured madness by the CIA attempting to influence a US election except that it is much worse than they are pretending the Russians did.
And btw, i understand the whole operation was taken from a panned hollywood script found in a trashcan at Hillary’s hollywood fundraiser by a staffer who plucked it out thinking it was a discarded email list. However when the staffer examined it, it was a script with a working title which by co-incidence was called “RUSSIA DID IT”. So he took it up the ladder and figured they could use it as a PlanB if Hillary lost. Needed some prep work by the CIA in advance, like email hacking etc. Hillary lost and that triggered what they co-incidentally code named “operation russia did it”.
if my surmisation is co-incidentally correct they will be knocking on my door.
When Trump declined to say whether he would accept the election results, a Clinton supporter said to me “We teach our children to lose graciously, but this man-baby is prepared to throw a tantrum.”
I pointed this out to her today, and pointed out that by her reckoning Hillary is being a “woman-baby” about the results. She responded that Hillary isn’t doing this personally, to which I replied “Oh, her supporter-babies, then.” At this juncture she went red in the face and said she understood why my boyfriend left me (actually he didn’t – I dumped him).
Well, I guess HRC didn’t really want to accept the outcome of the election after all.
What’s actually sort of interesting to me about this whole bag of worms is that Clinton – actually, both Clintons, unless I’ve missed something – have been remarkably silent about the entire thing.
Have you, or anyone else, seen any comments from them or attributed to them?
I’m sure their silence is intentional as their comments would seems as though they don’t accept the outcome.
It is odd enough that thing like this are out there: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/05/opinion/campaign-stops/i-ran-the-cia-now-im-endorsing-hillary-clinton.html?_r=0
I’m sure the Clinton surrogates are on stand-by mode until they see how much traction this story gets.
But no, I haven’t seen any thing yet.
Actually, come to think of it, I’ve only see 1 or 2 news stories regarding HRC sightings, post election.
One was at a book store (photo with a supporter) and the other was her and BC walking in a park (another photo op with a supporter).
Those are the only stories I’ve seen. Most likely, I saw them on MSNBC.
Hillary has bloviated about “real-world consequences of interference in our election”
She holds herself blameless.
Donald Trump is cool with calls for genocide
Over the weekend, Allen West posted to his 2.5 million Facebook followers a picture of Marine Gen. James Mattis, on which was the text, “Fired by Obama to please the Muslims” at the top, and “Hired by Trump to exterminate them,” on the bottom. (West eventually blamed a member of his staff. Oh well, even if true, that’s ok then.)
White supremacists dream of global genocide on a massive scale. That seems unusual for race-based movements. There are people who say white identity is just like any other ethnic identity, so there’s no cause for concern. But history shows that’s not the case. Plus they have books like the Turner Diaries. What’s the equivalent in other races, written in the modern era?
Before anyone says I’m claiming whites are genetically predisposed to global genocide, I’m not. The key differentiation is power and maintaining that power.
in other words, whats the matter with white people.
they are control freaks, a widely inherited affliction (mental disorder).
these types gravitate towards power like filings to a magnet.
then comes the hierarchy order and the insect colony madness.
it always gets worse from there.
yeahbut..
israel is already cool with genocide
hillary is realy cool with netanyahu and kissinger
did nazi germany go thru these contortions?
Yeah but nothing.
I thought it would be helpful to post some information about the nature of attributing hacks and the difficulties in actually establishing it.
http://resources.infosecinstitute.com/attribution-problem-in-cyber-attacks/
“The common tactic of advanced hackers is that they route the cyber attack through many different countries. Under these circumstances, a global policy on cyber attacks is need that will track down accurately the origin and perpetrator to be tracked down accurately. However, such a global policy is highly unlikely because of the differences among the great cyber powers. Even though the future of attributing cyber acts appears uncertain, there is hope that someday, somehow the real identity of the online villains will be uncovered and they will be brought to justice.”
note: Please read the references…they are all relevant to the subject matter. I won’t list them all here, but they are all linked as a reference links at the end of the article
https://www.esentire.com/news-and-events/coverage/why-is-the-attribution-of-hacking-so-difficult/
CTO at cyber security firm eSentire, Mark McArdle said: “While CrowdStrike’s reported evidence and observations seem like a reasonable conclusion to reach, we cannot dismiss the fact that none of this evidence is 100% reliable.
“If we think about the very high level of design, engineering, and testing required for such a sophisticated attack, is it reasonable to assume that the attacker would leave behind these breadcrumbs? Yes, it’s possible, but it’s also possible that these things can be used to misdirect attention to a different party. Is this evidence the result of sloppiness, or careful misdirection?”
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/03/attack_attribut_1.html
“Different types of attribution require different levels of evidence. In the Sony case, we saw the US government was able to generate enough evidence to convince itself. Perhaps it had the additional evidence required to convince North Korea it was sure, and provided that over diplomatic channels. But if the public is expected to support any government retaliatory action, they are going to need sufficient evidence made public to convince them. Today, trust in US intelligence agencies is low, especially after the 2003 Iraqi weapons-of-mass-destruction debacle.”
https://medium.com/message/attribution-is-hard-4164f8389eb8#.kdcvtz7fh
“Without good network forensics, investigation usually uses circumstantial evidence, like encoding languages and the code itself. Sometimes this really helps?—?sometimes organization or people leave their name in the malware. But often people do remember to remove their name from malware, or stick the names of people they want to fuck with in there. As for language encoding, if you go into your computer’s settings right now, you can change your encoding language to be Chinese, or Korean. Congrats! You’re now only a malware search away from getting your hacking attributed to a nation-state.”
http://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/internet/hacking-bruce-schneier-journalists-cyberattacks-ddos
“Attack attribution is complicated in cyberspace, and journalists are right to be skeptical of any official attribution. In some cases, the forensics makes it relatively easy to identify attackers. In other cases, it’s impossible. The deciding factors are generally the technical skill of the attacker and the attributor. It is possible to “false flag” attacks. That is, to make them appear to come from somewhere they’re not. There are also instances where only the pervasive internet eavesdropping capabilities of the NSA allow us to attribute an attack, and in those instances the details of that attribution will remain secret.
In every case, though, it is far easier to attribute an attacker to a particular region or computer than to a person or organization. For example, it can be impossible to know if a particular attack from China is state-sponsored, done by a hacking organization with the tacit approval of the Chinese government, or done by a lone hacker without the government’s knowledge. Recently, Yahoo claimed that their massive hack was “state sponsored.” It wasn’t, but the claim was their way to claim that the attackers were very sophisticated, and that the press shouldn’t blame them for their shoddy security.”
http://www.securityweek.com/false-flags-and-mis-direction-hacker-attribution
“When French TV station TV5Monde was hacked and almost destroyed in April 2015, CyberCaliphate claimed responsibility. Since it had an established presence this was at first accepted as the likely explanation. A few months later FireEye found that an IP address associated with Sofacy had been used, and blame switched from CyberCaliphate to Sofacy (and by implication, Russia). Kaspersky believes, however, that CyberCaliphate and Sofacy are the same group.
“It is believed,” write Guerrero-Saade and Bartholomew, “that CyberCaliphate was created to provide the Sofacy actors a way to conduct psychological operations against certain targets of interest while providing a level of plausible deniability.” Given that Russia has sided with the Syrian government against ISIS, it is far from an automatic assumption to describe CyberCaliphate as Russia.
In fact, Kaspersky also links CyberBerkut and the Yemen Cyber Army groups to Sofacy. The unspoken danger is that if the identity of one hacking group can be misrepresented as a false flag, then so could any hacking group”
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/csi-cyber-attack-scene-investigation-a-malware-whodunit/
Circumstantial evidence
“Attribution is a curious beast,” says Morgan Marquis-Boire, a senior researcher at the University of Toronto’s Citizen Lab and former member of Google’s security team. “There are a variety of techniques that you can use to make educated assertions about the nature of an attack.” These include examining the sophistication of the tools involved, the techniques, the type of data stolen and where it was sent. “I call this strong circumstantial, and this is how a lot of the attribution is done in public malware reports.”
The more informed you become about the very nature of how attribution is performed…or examined…or asserted..or assumed…then you get a more robust scope of how attribution is certainly not a transparent or even reliable means to falsify information.
Now, there is this one single constant that all of these articles I have listed and read (there were many more): that the NSA (and other state level spy agencies) has “tools” that permit absolute attibution results. But these are protected secrets.
I am not opposed to protecting national security secrets. Get that.
I AM opposed to erecting and standing up foreign policy, sanctions and public accusations, based on protected state secrets. Fundamentally, it is the MOST dangerous behavior with all of the predictable outcomes you can ever imagine. tyranny..politization of security…corruptions…criminality..etc.
Draw your own conclustions, but here are mine, based on a principle:
extraordinary claims, DEMAND extraordinary evidence.
Our Govt must establish some level of transparency about its discovery methods….
The reality of this situation is that if the govt refuses to accept this responsibility and let loose the methods and the science that supports these attributions…then this is what will happen next:
hackers and state nations will, for right or wrong,will target the US (and others who perform the same secrecy) and publish all of these so called secrets.
you either do this and earn the confidence, or you get slam dunked by an adversary who will in all likelihood damage the trust in the american “system” more than a voluntary release would endanger.
and that is something to really be concerned about…because that is where this is going to lead.
When our intelligence community will have its back broken….with zero public support, or even nation state support…what level of danger is more than this?
so who goes first?
that is the most important question about attribution science and openness.
FWIW,
Hillfarmer
December 12 2016, 8:48 p.m.
In fabricating these blatantly false and malicious (snip)
is an apt condemnation of your comments, which are also blandly repetitious.
electors are part of the election system…
greenwald:
Even as Democrats have spent months issuing one hysterical claim after the next about Russian interference, the White House, and Obama specifically, have been very muted about all of this. Perhaps that’s because he did not want to appear partisan or be inflammatory,
telling.
The history of faithless electors is meager. There’s not even a cult appreciation (or vilification) of faithless electors.
We live in an unimaginative self-repressed political culture (as proven by Clinton and Trump’s respective party popularity and near neglect of “lower” elections)
So, my assessment is:
1. few electors will go faithless on Trump.
2. if enough will, then the Trump defectors will choose Pence.
3. assuming Pence “wins” EC, the benefit will be in only foreign relations. Domestic governance will lurch toward to totalitarianism in roughly equal amount as would under Trump.
wha!? the electors can choose what, wally cox? none of the above? yep – nervous breakdown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU1kTuVSUOw
The Democrats have self-destructed as with the oligarchs in the establishment GOP. They don’t understand that their iron grip on information where they had used it as a weapon against the people they represented has collapsed. This is why they are in a full pressed court going against the President elect. I am not a Trump supporter nor did I vote for him but I am against a corrupt oligarch that has hijacked our federal govt causing illegal wars overseas and now trying to undermine our election results.
Amen!
here! here!
and hillary might not be prosecuted for lying to the f…b…i…
but she could be prosecuted for sedition!
and being incorrigible.
In fabricating these blatantly false and malicious news stories, the Washington Post is not engaged in journalism or an “expression of free speech.” This degree of news fakery and malicious interference with the election is, ironically, exactly what the Post ridiculously accuses Russia of doing. Publishing this brand of falsified information that carries such game-changing ramifications for the outcome of a democratic election is the geopolitical equipment of yelling “fire” in a crowded room
+1
rrheard
December 12 2016, 6:08 p.m.
much snippage.
40-50% of Americans who don’t bother to vote at all that is interesting to me.
And how many don’t register?
Most of those people will never become interested. Many others will lack interest during decades of their lives.
also means they are going to have to jettison (or have it electorally beaten out of them) their present understanding and policies consistent with neoliberal economics, and get back to something more akin to FDR’s Second Bill of Rights (and that is mutually self-reinforcing with “civil rights” for all of America’s minority or historically disadvantaged groups/identities)
I’ll assume that “neoliberal economics” in the non-theoretical sense is the same as our current “bipartisan” oligarch-rigged commerce.
1970s OPEC – primarily led by the Saudis – price manipulations created illusory 1980s “success” of “Reaganomics”, inducing conservative response by the electorate.
During the 1980s, the “centrist” Democrats partially adopted neoliberal economics for electoral survival .
Now seen as 1990s archetype, the Clintons advanced politically in the geographic and generational center of now electorally obsolete centrist Democratic (national) politics.
assorted political consultant class bullshit “micro-targeted” at whichever identity group and coalition they think they can cobble together
That’s politics. Inescapable.
For example, conservatives strive to maintain coalitions (if even) of identity groups:
theocrats, and sects of.
weapons fiddlers (norquist’s term)
poorly educated folks who romance the oligarch’s boot.
etc.
However, the optimistic reflection about our society is that the ruling elites’ rule requires much favor of the commoners. We are not conquered.
there was no-one to vote for – with voter suppression and 42% of the people not voting. The election would have been very different. I will repeat what I say about the 42% . . It is your RIGHT..
It is your civic responsibility. . and IT IS YOUR DUTY . . . I did not get up to stand in line to be number 5 in voting . . . but it gives me the right to B*tch and Moan about your not voting – your non vote is the reason for the outcome – you should be ashamed of yourself…….
Well, I don’t know where you’re going with this, Glenn, but if you think I’m going to sit-by and tolerate some kind of ‘redo-over’, along with 2 or 3 more years of Trump / Clinton debate and analysis, … well, I’d rather be ‘blind, crippled and crazy.’
*if I had a Twitter, I’d pin that tweet there … under the #hue&cry hashtag.
I presume you’re referring to this:
Hadn’t seen that Greenwald tweet, THG … but it don’t surprise me none.
The Washington Post has demonstrated it is a clear and present national security threat to the United States of America. They’ve gone beyond their usual news fakery and have now decided to actively work against the interests of democracy
Nope. No legal basis for that “clear and present danger” bullshit. At all.
Just another example of Trump supporters making shit up.
muggles December 12 2016, 6:04 p.m. cont.
Clinton, Podesta, et. al. sunk their own political boat.
HRC was sunk by many factors, including:
about 3 times free big-media time for Trump/Pence than for Clinton/Kaine. (Hours of free media time is hundreds of times the hours of paid media, though their infection routes aren’t identical.)
de rigueur redstate Republican election fraud, concentrated in swing states. (demonstrated in exit poll discrepancy trends)
weak candidate appeal left unbolstered by the campaign, in the desperate coal/rust states (notoriously abused and neglected by illegitimately dominant state level Republicans).
and timing of:
comeygate
the annual ACA rate announcements.
If they “lost” because of leaked emails, etc. it is not the “fault” of leakers but of the contents of those communications by the writers.
The Podesta mails “contents” was a load of mostly nothing, spiced with a little normal (smelly) insider political planning.
The contents were far from being “extraordinary/bold evidence” of anything else.
The leakers scheduled the leaks for maximum gorging, and highlighted strings in the initial view to maximize “scandal!” response.
The mails served as fuel for Bannon operation’s lies (fake news). These were eagerly swallowed (and embellished) by a small but electorally significant percentage of useful idiots who are currently obsessed with “pizzagate” and reposting “dank memes” of crying infants.
Among the mails posted, were at least one hoax (Wikileaks search found nothing, then I found the hoax by a web search.)
None of this can constitutionally be squelched by laws. Voters must learn to fend for themselves.
One has to ask, with the CIA, etc. now so politicized, what is their real value to American security? Given all of the past blowback and scandals (and assassinations) they have on their record, why not just abolish these thuggish liar agencies?
“now so politicized”?
Survival of a nation requires a breadth of means of national defense. We must accept and manage those means. The Constitution provides skeletal design for much of that.
Human nature tells us that the management will always be politicized.
Time to drain that swamp too.
Bannon is building “the best swamp, believe me”.
There is an old saying in science circles “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
Social events fall outside of hard science. Social/historical data is always erratically thin or thick, and scattered.
Also for example of hard science, read on how long the cold fusion hoax went along.
When does research end regarding rare medical procedures?
Assertions that the Russians had deliberate acts to influence the US election is a bold claim.
Define “bold”.
Generally, the value in influencing politics in other countries is obvious.
Specifically now, we can conclude that Sanders was least desirable President for Putin to face, followed closely by any other Democrat or any of the politically experienced Republican candidates. A Johnson administration also would have been wily enough to deal with Putin.
Inn contrast, a collaborating shrewd malcontent such as Bannon combined with Trump as his puppet is “deliciously” rare to Putin.
So where is the bold evidence? Nada, zilch.
Define “bold”.
Instead we have formerly semi respectable Beltway mouthpiece newspapers (one, WaPo) passing out garbage so thin and silly that it appears to be an amateur hour disinformation project. The right question to ask about these supposed “intelligence community” consensus claims is this: why can’t or shouldn’t these spooks provide something credible as evidence for these extreme claims? What is the risk of “sources and methods” here? Of course the blanket response is “we can’t say or the bad guys will learn our methods, etc.”
There is no benefit in releasing details of the methods. Both RU, US, UK, DE and other nations’ agencies and academics are conceptually familiar with any data analysis methods.
Silly and absurd. If Russian intel was involved, would not they already be informed that the CIA, etc. have penetrated their operation here? Would they not already be back tracing their op to sanitize it?
“penetrated their operation here”
(lol)
“back tracing” wtf?
“sanitize”?
It is similar to claiming that “we broke the XYZ military code” but won’t say how we did it. The important thing here is that the code was broken, not how it was done. The XYZ code will be changed.
?? IJK??
Well it is accurate to say that “cold fusion” as purported by Pons and Fleischmann’s experiment could not be reproduced, and I suppose if you want to label that a “hoax” then that’s up to you.
But clearly “fusion” is real as evidenced by the Sun.
The LENR question is can “fusion” be achieved at lower temperatures than how the Sun does it.
Now I have my doubts, as do the vast majority of scientists, but doesn’t mean it is “impossible” just incredibly improbable.
Seems to me it is a waste of research dollars given the physics hurdles, when that money should be going to how to simply harness near inexhaustible “clean energy” sources like solar, wind and tidal movements. All with their own problems but infinitely more viable as clean energy sources than “cold fusion”.
“Seems to me it is a waste of research dollars given the physics hurdles, ”
Boy, good thing you are not a scientist. It takes research to leap over or remove hurdles.
Twisty magnetic fields are promising.
Extraordinary claims require the same proofs as any other claims.
Or at least, all claims require evidence before one should believe them. Or, if the matter is complex and beyond one’s ken, a consensus of those who know WTF on the subject.
Some evidence:
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a49791/russian-dnc-emails-hacked/
Our darling Mona would love to read about this:
https://everydayconcerned.net/2016/12/12/seth-farber-ph-d-the-psychiatric-metanarrative-targeted-individuals-and-the-deep-state-a-response-to-the-new-york-times/
RCL
Mona does not read, much less rely upon, fever swamps, of which that site is one.
Our darling Mona sounds like USG when they say “they don’t like dictators, love freedom” . . .
What they actually mean is that they don’t like dictators who opose them and that they love freedom as long as it is aligned with their interests, they can benefits from it . . .
By the way in that post they are talking about one of your fave topics, namely: Seth Farber (sethhfarber.com/works.htm)’s view on:
http://www.sethhfarber.com/non_consensual_experimentation_on_human_subjects_129180.htm
https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/why-senate-staffers-who-investigated-nixons-spy-abuses-are-urging-obama-pardon
RCL
My Letter to the wsj, dallas morning news, wapo about the CIA, Russians, Trump, you-name-it
Dear Editor:
The CIA has been out-of-control since Harry Truman permitted the former OSS to import “moderate” Nazis via Operation Paperclip completely tax and duty-free to organize the Central “Intelligence” Agency that seems to be almost always wrong about almost everything. (“Go ahead an invade Russia in the winter; there is never any snow on the ground and it will be warm and sunny.”)
Now the open warfare between the CIA and the President-Elect over the totally evidence-free allegations that Russia had anything to do with influencing the late election — besides being a punching bag for the former SecState and her gopher and pundit chorus — is a sign of the most clear and present danger to the Republic ever posed by this dangerous and error-prone agency.
Perhaps the CIA is miffed that the President-Elect hasn’t agreed to “The Kennedy Briefing” in which autopsy photos and other memorabilia of John F, Kennedy’s blown-off skull are shown to him as a sort of “offer he can’t refuse.” That should shut the mouth of the President-Elect, shouldn’t it?
And no wonder Mr. Nixon did not attack the intelligence community; first, the diplomatic skullduggery on Vietnanistan that Mr. Nixon and his operatives did prior to the 1968 election was flat, rank, treason let alone illegal, i.e. the First Watergate; second, that was only five years after Mr. Kennedy’s blood and brain tissue was scattered all over the southeast bound end of westbound Elm Street in downtown Dallas — after Mr. Kennedy repeatedly refused CIA and Pentagon demands that he start a shooting war somewhere, that he let them stage an off-the-shelf “9-11″ to justify an invasion of Cuba (Operation Northwoods), or that he be a jolly good fellow and let them start an all-out nuclear was with the Soviet Union (i.e. Russia) for the sake of Auld Lang Syne.
The Partial Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, Kennedy’s June, 1963 “Peace Speech” to American University (which nobody knows about and is NOT taught in schools or on The History Channel), and August’s one-vote defeat of Medicare in the Senate must have caused further consternation to various warlike, nuclear-armed tribal cultures in Washington.
The recent open warfare between the (appointed) war criminal CIA Reichsfuehrer John Brennan and the (elected) U.S. Sen. Diane Feinstein over the Senate Torture Report showed total insubordination on the part of Brennan and the CIA countenanced by the milquetoast half-white president, and these CIA attacks on the President-Elect might suggest that the Secret Service tighten security. A lot.
As about Russia conducting the hacking, I could have hacked John Podesta’s account as well as the others and uploaded the goldmine to WikiLeaks. The fault lies not in the stars but in themselves: SOLELY in THEIR FAILURE to use adequate, robust, coded passwords instead of “ILOVEMYDOG” to protect their accounts.
The use of easily hackable passwords may well have been inspired by the reckless use of an unsecured private email server in a private residence located in Chautauqua, New York by their heroine, the former SecState.
Very truly yours,
Thom Prentice, Ph.D.
Man I really hate being right sometimes:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/12/syria-assad-forces-close-to-capturing-east-aleppo
Engaging in armed rebellion, for whatever reason, against the entrenched government of a nation is an all or nothing proposition. And if you do it, win or lose, you’re going to be, in part (directly or indirectly), responsible for a lot of non-combatant fatalities.
A government and its forces only has one of two choices when a rebellion starts–attempt to destroy it completely, or capitulate immediately and flee. The latter rarely happens unless the entrenched government is incredibly weak, or has lost every bit of legitimacy among its citizens. Armed rebellion, for the defeated and those non-combatants around them, doesn’t usually work out as well as it did for the South in the American Civil War which is the exception rather than rule when it comes to armed rebellion (and that’s not arguing there wasn’t a lot of horrific death all the way around in the American Civil War–quite the opposite, but South and its people were “spared” in many respects). Syria is a prime example of that rule rather than the exception.
Tragic nonetheless for the people of Syria. Maybe America should think long an hard about meddling in others affairs particularly when it is in another global rival power’s longstanding “sphere of influence.”
And it should be a lesson in what would happen if America ever sought to attempt to incite armed rebellion or actively militarily intervene (whether through proxies or American forces) to destabilize Iran or oust its regime.
Iran has more than 3X as many people as Syria and roughly 10X as large geographically. And its government is way better armed and its people prepared to unify to fight any invader or group of armed rebels. And America, Israel or anybody who thinks they could militarily overthrow it in the absence of using nuclear weapons, or that Russia would sit idly by while it happens, is a neocon lunatic of the highest order.
You must be a very happy individual.
is he wrong about the folly of intervening in syria?
He is not wrong.
There is absolutely nothing about the Middle East so black and white that “folly” would apply.
Suppose a UN force set up safe zones. Would that be a “folly”?
There are no good solutions. Only a series of less dreadful ones.
No intervention is probably as much a folly as any intervention.
So yes, he’s wrong about that.
I’m unhappy about being right about Syria. As I said.
I’m happy that I’m apparently smarter than you and less of a hypocrite. At least you’ve appeared to lose IQ points and reasoning abilities since this most recent election, which makes me unhappy because I used to have some respect for your comments and opinions.
Maybe, and hopefully, it’s just temporary and you’ll return to your senses.
If opposing Trump makes me a gibbering idiot, then I’ll gibber away idiotically.
If apologizing for Trump makes you a happy man, I’d prefer your unhappiness.
In either case, the real issues get buried, especially in this crap about defining reality according to this or that politician/performance artist.
It is not difficult to say: “Trump is blithering idiot who shouldn’t be president under any circumstances.”
You don’t need to resurrect J. Edgar Hoover, FBI witch hunts or a miserable old Republican named McCarthy grabbing attention by condemning other people’s political values.
The rhetorical pretzels I’ve read here — all designed to dress the pig as a president nauseate me.
Trump is unfit to be president.
Period.
I’ve never argued Trump was “fit” to be President. But the US Constitution permits the people, and electors of the electoral college, to install whomever they choose assuming enough commoners vote for that particular candidate.
You ready to throw out the Constitution based on your fear of your fellow citizens or who they voted for in greater numbers than you and your compatriots voted for? I’m not, because that path leads to immediate ruin.
I’m pretty sure we don’t want it any other way, because that’s just really saying something akin to “well the losers of an election (people like Milton) know what’s best or better than what their fellow citizens believe is best or better, and who just exercised their democratic right to vote in sufficient numbers that exceeded those of people like Milton and those similarly minded.”
Either convince a sufficient number of people to vote for your preferred candidate or don’t. But when you don’t you don’t get to figure out some clever argument for why you couldn’t and didn’t.
Like I said, I used to respect your opinion, but if you think overturning this election through some technical use of the electors of the electoral college, or even a re-vote isn’t going to split this country in half and likely start a civil war, then you’re deluded.
Um how about accept that you don’t get to decide who is/is not “unfit” to be President of the United States of America–a majority of electoral votes does. Full stop. If you can’t handle that reality maybe you should consider becoming a citizen of another country where you Milton Wiltmellow gets to decide for everyone is is/is not fit to have a legitimate vote cast for them by those legally empowered to vote.
Well if by “better” you mean as dumb as you in trying to find a way to overturn the results of a legitimately conducted election (and unless you/they can demonstrate individual ballots in sufficient numbers had been tampered with, or the counting of said ballots was tampered with, then you/they have got fuck all to complain about except you don’t like the result of the democratic process.)
Yeah that will really end well for America.
“Solution” to what problem? That you didn’t like the outcome of an election in America? Sad to say that’s the history of America in every election. In every single election there was and likely always will be some percentage of the voting (and non-voting) population that is fundamentally opposed to the result. But if you honestly believe that figuring out a way to “solve” the problem of elections that don’t result in what you want, other than accepting them as the will of your fellow citizens, then you better be prepared for the consequences of that decision or actions.
The only “crisis” is if some idiots aligned with the Democratic party attempt to overturn this election result. You and anyone who agrees with that “plan” will have to answer directly to the almost as many millions of your fellow citizens that actually voted for the result that was obtained.
Like I said, I’m really convinced this election is causing otherwise reasonably intelligent people to lose significant IQ points and their ability to reason based on nothing more than pants-wetting fear.
And while I may generally be aligned with your ultimate policy goals for this nation, if you or anybody else attempts to overturn an election that was electorally sound (as a function of ballot integrity and ballot counts) then we’ll probably become enemies when the shit hits the fan. Because if you believe or trust so little in the electoral process and giving your fellow citizens the rightful fruits of their votes (that exceed you and yours) then you don’t have a functioning democratic or representative form of government in the first instance–you’ll have proved the “right’s” fears of a “leftist tyranny” because that’s what it’ll be in fact.
You and everybody else is going to have to suck it up, put on your big-boy/girl pants of resistance and fight back against what’s coming from Trump and the GOP. But you will never “solve” anything by likely sparking another civil war in this country by overturning a valid election. So get your fear in check before you embarrass yourself and contribute to something way worse than cuts to SS payments.
Again, you’re completely wrong.
I do get to decide that Trump is unfit to be president.
I’m a citizen. That is my most fundamental right. You don’t get to remove my opinion because it’s inconvenient or disagreeable. You don’t get to deny my judgment because it differs from your own.
Even if the vote is 310 million to one, I still get to judge Trump as unfit.
I don’t have to suck anything. I don’t have to bow, to kneel, to tremble or to cry about it. My job is to make myself clear; I don’t have to make excuses for people who behave inexcusably.
O’brien is simply wrong.
if the Party says that two and two equals three, or five, it will always be right: you, by yourself, cannot know the truth.
I speak for myself. You don’t get to take that away from me.
And I’ve never tried to argue against your opinion that Trump is unfit. Hell I agree with it. But, hey, beautiful strawman, which seems to be your stock in trade since the election. Oh yeah and your opinion that Trump is “unfit”.
What I’m arguing against is your implicit assumption in everything you write lately that there is a “crisis” because he is “unfit”, or that because he is “unfit” in your opinion, he does not or should not be permitted to be inaugurated.
At least be intellectually honest with yourself to admit that’s what you’re arguing.
If you’re arguing he is “unfit”, all I have to say is “so fucking what”. Millions of voters agreed with you, including me. But they lost, and he won.
Get the fuck over with it, and stop with this dissembling, posturing, whining and positing how it might be possible that “better minds than yours” could or are trying to figure out a way to stop him from being inaugurated.
Because to even suggest that is an “actual crisis” and would lead to something incredibly stupid and likely violent. And it is anti-democratic as hell. And despite your recent stupidity I never took you for someone who was so cowardly and frightened of your fellow citizens that you’d actually condone something that you seem to be explicitly or implicitly advocating even if you don’t want to admit it to yourself by saying, “I’m just arguing he’s unfit.” Well great, that and $3.50 will get you a cup of expensive coffee and nothing more.
If this is a true statement (I think it is) and not some sort of evasion designed to gallop to whatever you want to say, then I commend you for it.
Trump is unfit to be president.
Repeat it. Adopt it. Nurture it. Hold it to your heart like a pain that still hurts after decades.
Here in America, besides packaging and poisons, propaganda and sales pitches, we produce very little of real value. Here in America there are more lies than landfills to store them in, more lies than words to hide them. More lies than flies on a corpse.
So it seems to me important — of utmost importance — to tell a truth.
The barista at your expensive coffee place says to you, “Hi rr. How are you?” You can give the greasy answer everyone expects … a lie.
“I’m fine Marcy. How are you?”
Instead imagine yourself saying, “Donald Trump is unfit to be president. So I’m not fine because I don’t know what to do about it.”
Marcy may give you a funny look. She may yell, “GET THE HELL OUT.” She may whisper, “I agree … but my boyfriend starts yelling at me if I say it.” Probably she’ll say, “grande or lenti, light or dark roast, room for cream?”
And yes, a tininess nested in a smallness, hidden by nonsense, covered by futility, like nested dolls at the center of which is absolutely nothing. The sun still rises in the east.
But I say you’ve changed the world — even in such a tiny way. You’ve said something true.
Wouldn’t you feel better?
You don’t have to waste your time arguing with presumable allies over actual strawmen arguments like “WP is the new McCarthyism” or “Clinton lost because …” or “Evidence, dammit, EVIDENCE! …” or anything except that which you hold to be true.
Some people think truth should be painted gold and slapped on buildings or uttered in front of cameras or written in a bestselling memoir.
I think not.
I think truth like a candle that wards off the darkness. Humble, yes. Insufficient, maybe. Forgetable, definitely. Still there’s lots to complain about, but at least it’s something — and that is far better than nothing.
The above was an illustration of opposing high force winds.:)
the battle for aleppo is over
Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:16PM IRAN TIME
http://presstv.com/Detail/2016/12/12/497550/Syria-Aleppo-militants-Daesh
Jake Tapper has long been one of the few people on cable “news” often behaving like an actual journalist. Whether his inquiries are unpleasant for a Democrat or a Republican: In Trump Era, Uncompromising TV News Should Be the Norm, Not the Exception
The headline is messed up, however. What Tapper does should be standard for journalists in every era, not just that of Trump.
Ah,the pizza story that has disappeared from our intrepid medias headlines,right after the gunmans shooting,and the story came out he was an actor.Hmmm…..
And why would serial liars not run with something that enforces their fake news propaganda?
Oh yeah,Jake Tapper,of the Clinton News Network,is Walter Cronkite’s ghost.
And why anyone would give obvious murderers and anti democratic scum as the Clinton campaigns losers credence about anything is hillaryous.
You creepy.
I’ve never thought of it that way but yes you are correct he is Walter Cronkite’s ghost. He appears so serious and sincere yet you know he’s just so full of shit and another shill for the party. His rise to fame and power was orchestrated perfectly with the hard questions asked during press conferences at the White House to gain exposure and legitimacy only to be propelled by his puppet masters to his own show on the Clinton news network how convenient. This game is so easily deciphered with just a little clarity and common sense.
Again: “Whether [Tapper’s] inquiries are unpleasant for a Democrat or a Republican”
That’s Tapper.
He caught Pence in a lie. Pence wasn’t happy. Too bad.
Let me fix that for you:
and the preposterous, absurd assertion, based on nothing, came out he was an actor.
Like so many other avid Trump supporters, you make up and promote bullshit.
Seattle local news mentioned last night that Trump is to meet with tech giants from Silicon Valley.
One conspicuous absence will be Jeff Bezos. The commentator noted, “Bezos owns the WaPo and it was critical of Trump during the election.”
Galactus-36215
“…….It’s called EYEWITNESS TESTIMONEY……..Murray said. “I’ve met the person who leaked them, and they are certainly not Russian and it’s an insider. It’s a leak, not a hack; the two are different things.”……..”
How does Murray know it was THE person? Was he there? That particular person could be anyone that Assange dragged out of the streets. In fact, it could just be a diversionary tactic designed to divert attention away from Assange’s connection to Russian intelligence. Russian intelligence and Assange had motives – and vehemently opposed HRC.
Craig Murray is an anti-American political hack – like Assange. The “insider” needs to come forward for an interview by law enforcement officials for this story to gain any credibility.
back to smoking crack, eh craig?
btw craig, you should be 18 or over to post here, preferably a college degree.
how’s Haifa?
U of Phoenix count?
They have a pro football stadium named for them,they must!
“The “insider” needs to come forward for an interview by law enforcement officials for this story to gain any credibility.”
Unless the “insider” sleeps now with the fishes …
It’s funny when you say credibility …
I really don’t believe that is a realistic possibility. The real story from the hacker would have been that this was CIA sponsored which, of course, it was never reported. If the CIA sponsored it, they would have at least provided a hacker with a Russian accent, you think?
Alex Jones suddenly seems sane and rational.
Got any evidence for that ‘connection’ , Craig?
Not even one shred of evidence unless you take my word for it that Russia hacked the DNC. Do you have any evidence that the job was an inside job (possibly a KGB plant) besides the word of a radical anti-American leftist that believes he is a human rights activist while supporting the destruction of Aleppo?
ha ha ha…..I guess you’re too stupid to understand English. So, here it is again…unfortunately, it will also have to be in English.
Do you understand the meaning of “I’VE MET THE PERSON WHO LEAKED THEM, AND THEY ARE CERTAINLY NOT RUSSIAN AND IT’S AN INSIDER”
But, by all means, keep playing stoopid. It suits you.
FYI, even if the leaker comes foward, SO WHAT. That doesn’t disqualify ANY of the information made public. In fact, NO ONE is disputing the authenticity of the released documents.
a larger implication is that “if” the perpetrator is established…finally and convincingly…what becomes of the illusions of attribution and the state of the intelligence agencies that not only got it so wrong, but probably in all likelihood was an intentional mistake.
I think that outcome is what people deserve to notice.
as far as this former ambassador, I place his claims in the same department as the “official statement” released by the intelligence 3 letter groups:
heresay, innuendo and assertions not backed up by any evidence that can be proven one way or the other.
so, we should be careful transforming his comment as anything more than just same bullshit, different space.
I think critically, there are at least two specifics that need to be captured to get to truths:
1. do citizens support policies based on secretive protected methods? That have been proven ineffective and even manipulated in the past?
2. Where is the open source peer review that established wide acceptance of the statements made of a russian -putin link with full disclosure of the techniques that can be repeated for proper scientific proofing?
again, we should not hold ANY person that attempts to establish some credibility about attribution here based on mouth service and story telling.
isn’t that what we learned with the fake news and msm problems made clear in this last cycle?
“what becomes of the illusions of attribution and the state of the intelligence agencies that not only got it so wrong”
This statement leaves out the interpretation of deception by one or more parties within or connected to the intelligence community.
It is possible that one of the intelligence agencies actually does know the source of the leak and is not saying so. ie…..actual deception on the part of the intelligence community.
Answer me this, which agency is the best agency to conceal a lie to public? And what would it’s defense be to guard that lie?
Answer: CIA on the grounds of National Security.
The CIA tells a lie and convincingly cannot produce any evidence as they would object to revealing their methods.
Tell me, what kind of hoopla will Greenwald and the public raise if they do find out it’s a leaker (US Citizen) and that it actually WAS the CIA who determined it? ie….a Domestic issue.
power play.
ok – let’s assume the CIA is using Russia as bait and threatening to overturn the election and if the leaker does not come forward, all his/her efforts to reveal facts about a criminal (Hillary) are for naught.
IF the leaker comes forward, will the dems not continue to attempt to overturn the election anyway?
IF the leaker does not come forward, are the dems going to actually follow thru to attempt to overturn the election of is this just a ploy to flush out a leaker?
This IS what the CIA does for a living. And NOW they are doing this in the USofA. IF that is the play, the the democracy in America really is a fake.
This greatly comes down to the credibility one should extend Murray, and I know too little about him and his judgment to have an opinion either way.
“…….FYI, even if the leaker comes foward, SO WHAT. That doesn’t disqualify ANY of the information made public. In fact, NO ONE is disputing the authenticity of the released documents…….”
I am not disputing the information released. I am just not going to take the word of a far left wing anti-American wack-job that it was an inside job. The guy simply has to come forward if Murray’s story is to be corroborated. Jesus. Why is that so hard for you to understand? That is the idea behind this Greenwald article. At some point in the future, you might be able to say see I told you so, but you can’t now until the hacker/leaker comes forward.
Thanks.
And this is probably the reason for Craig’s anti-Murray burp:
(Wiki)
No, it was actually the statement by Murray in the link from the galactus post which bothered me.
“……..As thankfully the four year agony of Aleppo comes swiftly to a close today, the Saudi and US armed and trained ISIS forces counter by moving to retake Palmyra. This game kills people, on a massive scale, and goes on and on…….”
He clearly gives the Assad regime a free ride when it comes to barrel bombs, chemical weapons, the death of 25000-50000 prople in Assad detention facilities, targeting of hospitals and civilians – and even the start of the war by Assad who used a military style crackdown on a democracy movement associated with the Arab Spring.
why would the dumb&dumbers suspect Russia of hacking unless of course the dumb&dumbers were aware that their systems were vulnerable? And why would the dumb&dumbers use vulnerable systems?
this hacking stuff would not be a problem if the dumb&dumbers were at least smart enough to use less or unhackable systems – as the NSA does. NSA uses LINUX which includes a code source check prior to entering the microprocessor – very sofisticated and decades old.
http://betanews.com/2016/11/02/russian-hackers-exploit-windows-security-flaw/
oh oh
The faking U$A is so delusional
it is even part of their weather reports.
Repeatedly, I have heard that the bitter cold in the
northern plains of the faking U$A is “Siberian” cold.
It is not North Dakotan cold.
It is not Canadian cold.
No, it MUST be Siberian weather.
Damn! That Putin even controls the weather!
lol! you are kidding, yes? that sort of cold is always termed “ARCTIC”.
really, siberian?
“northern plains of the faking U$A is “Siberian” cold.”
Usually in WA it’s referred to as an ‘Arctic blast’. We’ve got some cold weather coming and I’ll pay attention to the description.
It is systemic.
To be honest,most weather patters here in NA are N West to East,so Washington’s weather is most likely Siberian in origin.but most of US suffer Canadian Cold Fronts.:)
au contraire, my friend. Our super-cold weather comes out of the Arctic, through the Yukon, then down the Fraser Canyon before freezing Seattle. The jet stream can cross Siberia to the Arctic and then down to the West Coast. The local weather people made a big deal once about the ‘actual’ Siberian cold-front, many years ago.
A ‘Siberian Cold-front’ in Seattle is, like, temps in the teens … :)
Jeremy Scahill:
https://twitter.com/jeremyscahill/status/808338144542281729
just got word that Hillary has spoken
(genuine fake news)
Scahill was nakedly anti Trump.Yeah,I believe him,I really do.
Every other illiberal asshole from Chris Hedges,to Naomi Klein to Juan Cole have all been exposed as pathetic numb nuts.
Maybe you would like to outline how you reached your conclusions, and what the basis or source of your assertion is… and why you choose to use insulting language that shuts down dialogue when good American’s of all stripes need to be talking to one another from the heart, seriously, the stakes are too high.
All reasonable, well-informed people are nakedly anti-Trump. Jeremy Scahill is reasonable and well-informed.
I think the source of the leak should contact The Intercept via secure drop and then encrypted email in order to confirm Craig Murray’s claims. There are probably ways to verify the leaker is who he says he is, without compromising his identity.
The Craig Summers of the world will continue to deny it because, you know, we’re surrounded by secret agents of the Kremlin, but it would be very convincing to most rational observers.
Riddle: what’s the difference between ‘anonymous officials’ and ‘whistleblowers’ ?
Answer: evidence.
Patrick Eddington, Ex-USAR officer, CIA analyst & Hill staffer:
Make public all Russian election hacking and influence op intel. Now.
I approve this message.
Given the above – which I agree with (even if that means milton was wrong about some assumptions about me, which I can live with) – and given a question that was posed to all of us, to wit:
2. If yes, how would you address it?
If all of the above, and if one believes Trump needs to be stopped and/or that Russia is behind his win, then hammering on the doors of your state’s electors would be an actionable thing people could do.
What do you say milton? You been hammering there? Or is it more fun to hammer on people here who largely agree with you about the perils and/or uncertainties, if not exactly on how we got here?
@ Pedinska
I have multiple problems with Milton’s question and any possible response. And here it goes in no particular order:
1) Even if Russia did hack and leak information re: one candidate or another, if the information leaked wasn’t inaccurate or fabricated, why should there be any consequence to Russia whatsoever i.e. it is an argument that American voters aren’t entitled to know the full unvarnished acts or words of their prospective elected officials and vote accordingly however they choose to give weight to that information. It’s fundamentally anti-democratic and anti-transparent two big problems America has in the first instance when it comes to the fundamental relationship between American voters and their political representatives.
2) Given an election that had approximately 120 million votes cast, even if Russia had hacked and leaked information, whether true or untrue, how can you ever establish “causation” that it altered the election result i.e. you can’t unless you interview every single voter who was exposed to that information and somehow attempt to causally separate out that data, the weight each voter gave it, and whether or not that “singular” act or word leaked, was dispositive in that voter voting the way he/she did (which is basically impossible).
3) Notwithstanding 1) and 2), and even if it was proved Russia engaged in “interference”, what is going to be worse for America in the long run a) attempt to use the electoral college to overturn Trump’s election in favor of installing Hillary Clinton (that very well could lead to a civil war in America at worst, and at best fundamentally delegitimize Hillary Clinton’s presidency in every conceivable way particularly in light of the other two branches of government being in GOP hands.)
4) Again, notwithstanding 1) and 2) and the caveat in first sentence of 3) attempting to “retaliate” against Russia in some meaningful way would look like what and how could it possibly be effective: a) economic sanctions haven’t worked against Russia in the past and won’t work in the future, b) military intervention is lunancy, and c) cyber-retaliation could very well lead to military hostilities which would be going down the path of lunacy.
Look this is a very stupid and shortsighted game for the Dems and a few Republicans to be playing.
We aren’t helping in any way except to demand proof from those anonymous officials who are making these outrageous claims. But even if such proof is offered, what does it change as far as options going forward? Nothing, IMHO.
Seems to me the better option, should it be proved that Russia “interfered” and only if proved by disseminating fabricated or inaccurate leaks, is rhetorically denounce it and seek a new international UN regime with enforceable mechanisms to prevent any nation (including US) from interfering in any other nations democratic processes; take the stance that it didn’t change the electoral outcome in US because that can never be proved with any sort of certainty; commit to improving cyber-security in US to prevent this (assuming it can be which is uncertain); and, then move the hell on.
I can see absolutely nothing positive coming from anything other than what I’ve suggested above. America is delusional if it thinks it can “punish” Russia for something like this. And if some segment of America thinks it can undo this election result for Trump on the basis of Russia’s purported interference, the only possible way that isn’t perceived as illegitimate by a big portion of America, is if US officials can provide unassailable evidence of the Russian government’s involvement (highly unlikely) AND prove causation definitively as to America’s election result (impossible) AND ask the American people to re-vote and abide by their wishes one way or the other (and that’s not likely to happen in either even and there is no precedent for it legal or political and will thus be perceived as illegitimate).
Short of being able to prove all of those things, and one segment of America’s population takes concrete steps to overthrow this election and there will be violence in the streets–I’d almost guarantee that. We’d look like the biggest banana Republic in the world and make the Brazilian political class look like pikers.
The American people are in a no-win situation, and should simply make the best of it going forward, and make sure it doesn’t happen in the future as best we can.
Not like this chicken hasn’t finally come home to roost if it is actually definitively established the Russia’s government was directly involved and electoral result causation is established (again, which is impossible–correlation is not causation and polling data at any given point in time, or trends, is not causation).
IMHO, this is a very stupid and short-sighted game for the American people and America’s political leadership to be playing from almost every conceivable angle.
RR — I’m in a contrary mood so I searched your above comment for something with which I could snottily disagree, but alas came up empty. You pretty neatly summarized (better than I could) what I’ve been thinking about the whole Russia kerfuffle.
Back in the 90s the Florida football coach, Steve Spurrier, was sometimes accused of “running up the score,” i.e. aggressively pursuing additional points late in the game when victory was already assured. After one such occasion, a reporter asked the losing Tennessee coach, Phil Fulmer, if he objected to Spurrier’s practice. “No,” said Fulmer, “It’s our job to stop him.”
Likewise it’s our job as a nation to stop other countries from inappropriately involving themselves in our elections. If we’re not up to the task, we shouldn’t complain.
That sums up this nation. Playing really stupid games.
As you note, the content of the leaked emails seems to be of little consequence because the Russians are playing on our lawn!!
Th indignation expressed by the pundits on Sunday morning was everywhere; How should we respond? (because we know Putin did something).
All good points rr. I guess I’m just sick and tired of the lengths some power brokers will go to to keep their influence without regard to consequences to anyone. We’ve seen that in this election from the very start. Eddington seems to want them to either put up or shut up and that’s sounding better to me by the moment because the bullshit and counter-bullshit is what’s turning us into a banana republic, not any calls to try to improve our system via, say, the call for proportional representation within the EC (as posted above by THG).
The people here who keep insisting that this is a monstrously horrendous hair-on-fire act-to-end-all-acts don’t want to face a lot of things, not least of which is whether or not their own fears are reasonable or proportionate. Fine. Let Obama tell us what he knows because right now all we’ve got is a partisan war in the IC and Congress where nothing has been shown but a bunch of “reports” and “determinations”. Hell, in some places it doesn’t even look like fucking Congress has been shown any actual evidence at all.
I don’t even actually give a shit if the EC is actually stupid enough to try to reverse the result. I may feel differently tomorrow and your argument is compelling, but the way the EC is used as a manipulatory tool that enables them to ignore huge chunks of the electorate isn’t exactly a quality I feel worth preserving because, tradition, or whatever. The fact that this is even being considered just points out how pitiful and corrupt our political system really is. The center is far beyond rotten and what this whole election has shown is how fast something can implode when the very foundations have been/are being actively destroyed by those who should know better but just can’t fucking help themselves because of their disgusting personal and institutional levels of greed and power-mongering.
I’m just tired.
oh this is getting better by the hour!
oh Mr. Glenn Greenwald, the posting length is about to crash some systems.
can we get another page? i think this saga is going to continue into January. 2000+ posts, no way man, help.
Marcy Wheeler: WHY IS CIA AVOIDING THE CONCLUSION THAT PUTIN HACKED HILLARY TO RETALIATE FOR ITS COVERT ACTIONS?
Creepy,the Russians were as sure as you the Hell Bitch would win the election.
Why would they jeopardize an already poor relationship that they already were concerned about,which of course was all zionist instigated propaganda of lies?Talk about walking on eggshells.
Does not compute one iota.
Go back to election prognosticating,you were much more on target there,although no bullseye,just air balls.sheesh.
And here’s an example of why I think the LGM substance and style of political analysis, is both overwrought, normatively problematic, counterproductive, and at times flat out wrong as a function of political fundamentals and history (whether as comparative to other nations and times, or America’s unique history, institutions, culture and present situation). It’s why I don’t think Lemieux or anyone there other than Loomis is even fit to carry Prof. Robin’s briefcase to class.
http://coreyrobin.com/2016/12/11/against-the-politics-of-fear/
Anybody is drawing overly broad conclusions about “America” and/or all its “citizens” from the antiquated electoral college victory of Donald Trump, or thinks the sky is about to fall, is making multiple paradigmatic or analytical errors across multiple disciplines–IMHO. And normatively engaging in a kind of “politics” that I will never be a part of and think is quite problematic regardless of whether/when it is practiced by the “right” or the “left”.
Donald Trump, at most, represents what barely 25-30% of Americans feel/felt, thought and/or think at a particular point in time. Given how our political institutions allocate power for those who achieve it electorally, that 25-30% “viewpoint” (in all its myriad components) can do tremendous damage to much of the remaining 70-75% of Americans who voted and lost, or who didn’t vote at all. Nobody denies that reality, but it must be kept in perspective and pushed back against proportionally with the nature of the actual threat(s) as they present themselves.
But it is the 40-50% of Americans who don’t bother to vote at all that is interesting to me. They don’t appear to “fear” either major political party to the point they can even be bothered to vote from “fear”, much less a preference for one or the other. And it is important to understand why. And there are reasons, and those reason need to be explored in depth and quickly, IMHO, if the Democratic party is going to regain its electoral footing in this country.
For me, given my rough alignment at this point with most of the nominal policy goals of the Democratic party (or at least what they should nominally be, but aren’t necessarily at present) that 40-50% is the untapped American resource that both parties ignore.
More importantly, the Democratic party can be content to try and do what they’ve been doing for decades which is slice and dice people into categories (anathema to most human beings, and not reflective at all of the complex motivations and views of individual human beings) and try and eke out 2-5% electoral victories over the GOP. Or, if they were smart, they would stop engaging in that bankrupt way of seeing politics, and the uncertain and inconsistent path to sporadic electoral victories it yields, and reconstitute themselves into something they once largely were.
They could start to figure out a way to actually stand for something coherently and consistently all across the nation that has simple universal aspirational appeal(rhetorically and policy-wise), not “fear of the evil GOP”/LOTE which is a loser. They need to appeal not only to the aspirations of the Democratic party’s existing “base”, but also appeals to the universal aspirations and “identities” of the 40-50% of Americans that rarely if ever vote if at all.
And you aren’t going to reach that 40-50% rhetorically or otherwise doing politics the way the “professionalized” Third Way/Centrist/Triangulating/Professional Consultant-Polling Industry/Big Dem Donor Class does politics. And if you do the Democratic party will continue to see only sporadic electoral success if any at all.
No election should be close in this country if the Democratic party would actually change itself to being the party of ALL working class people and middle management. But to do so it is going to have to play the “longer game”, it is going to have to get out of bed with its mega-donors and bundlers (and fund its candidates and incumbents with small dollar donations from the people they purport to represent instead of the ones they actually do), actually take concrete steps to empower the working class politically in America other than as “votes that are owed to their party elites every two-four-six years” (which of course they aren’t owed), and actually be prepared to fight for an America that serves the vast majority of America’s working class — in all its policies and rhetoric. That also means they are going to have to jettison (or have it electorally beaten out of them) their present understanding and policies consistent with neoliberal economics, and get back to something more akin to FDR’s Second Bill of Rights (and that is mutually self-reinforcing with “civil rights” for all of America’s minority or historically disadvantaged groups/identities):
Now granted it will have to be tweaked because “mining jobs” aren’t the future but the rest is precisely how the Democratic party needs to both “message” and align its “policy platform”. Stick with it over the long term, engage in mass person-to-person organizing and GOTV around it (and specifically that 40-50% that doesn’t vote regularly) instead of billions of dollars on bullshit TV ads during election season and ridiculous sums of money on idiotic polling, surveys, focus groups and other assorted political consultant class bullshit “micro-targeted” at whichever identity group and coalition they think they can cobble together for a bare electoral majority in any election.
Or they can continue to get their asses handed to them.
Hadn’t heard of FDR’s Second Bill of Rights so thanks for posting that.
I agree with your diagnosis but think the patient is beyond help at this point. The democratic party is showing, quite clearly at the moment, via messaging, votes for leadership, and the total disregard – nay, contempt – for the ideas that were espoused by Sanders, his supporters and people who voted third party, that they are not interested in giving up one iota of what they currently clutch in their tiny, crabbed hands.
If there is one thing that all the statehouse elections, governorships, congressional races etc should show, it’s that they don’t give a fuck about losing as long as they can keep their rapidly diminishing perks at the top.
In fact, it is actually quite astonishing to realize that the only person in all of this who seems content to just throw her hands in the air and walk away into the woods, is the one on whose behalf all of these faux battles are being waged. Hillary I’m-Done-With-It Clinton. And why not? Their family’s set for the next 10 generations. Nothing to do now but throw parties to thank all the millionaires and billionaires who lost so much money, and the only election that apparently mattered at that level of above-it-all, by continuing to ignore all the rest of us.
It is not true that “Nobody has ever opposed investigations to determine if Russia hacked these emails.” Mitch McConnell did just that in September.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/12/10/mitch_mcconnell_prevented_stronger_action_against_russian_election_meddling.html
Let’s see who opposes release of the CIA evidence. That will tell us who has something to hide, or gain.
There is an old saying in science circles “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
Assertions that the Russians had deliberate acts to influence the US election is a bold claim. So where is the bold evidence? Nada, zilch.
Instead we have formerly semi respectable Beltway mouthpiece newspapers (one, WaPo) passing out garbage so thin and silly that it appears to be an amateur hour disinformation project. The right question to ask about these supposed “intelligence community” consensus claims is this: why can’t or shouldn’t these spooks provide something credible as evidence for these extreme claims? What is the risk of “sources and methods” here? Of course the blanket response is “we can’t say or the bad guys will learn our methods, etc.”
Silly and absurd. If Russian intel was involved, would not they already be informed that the CIA, etc. have penetrated their operation here? Would they not already be back tracing their op to sanitize it?
It is similar to claiming that “we broke the XYZ military code” but won’t say how we did it. The important thing here is that the code was broken, not how it was done. The XYZ code will be changed.
Clinton, Podesta, et. al. sunk their own political boat. If they “lost” because of leaked emails, etc. it is not the “fault” of leakers but of the contents of those communications by the writers.
One has to ask, with the CIA, etc. now so politicized, what is their real value to American security? Given all of the past blowback and scandals (and assassinations) they have on their record, why not just abolish these thuggish liar agencies? Time to drain that swamp too.
McCarthy and cohorts would have had Greenwald executed.
<em>American hero historically speaking
Your opinion?
tz
December 12 2016, 5:50 p.m.
…
(whistling)
good point
if not for a more insidious agenda, protecting their flank lest the party be branded a den of cons and be rendered un-electable. 2018 will be interesting, at least.
Hillfarmer
December 12 2016, 5:24 p.m.
The First Amendment does not protect malicious, anti-American “speech” that is intended to overthrow the legitimately and democratically elected President of the United States
You substitute an accurate word for the inaccurate “overthrow”. Then yes the free press clause was designed primarily to speak for and against government entities.
It’s time to call for the arrest and prosecution of
Washington Postbreitbart/infowars etc. propaganda operatives who are literally staging a “soft coup” via coordinated media fabrications.“call for the arrest and prosecution”
That’s illegal. Under such laws, you would see Glenn Greenwald “arrested and prosecuted”.
For reference:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
There you go again Mona please go back to whatever you do which I can only assume is troll legitimate intellectual arguments you don’t agree with. Run along now ya hear.
But what has this to do with the election?
To put a cloud over it?
To convince electors to vote for Hillary and create a constitutional crisis (like they love to do by packing the court and destroying any appearance of fairness and rules – whatever it takes, Mandates are Taxes, the Emanations and Penumbras that don’t stop the NSA forces Gay marriage, etc).
The left is defined by moral relativism, lie, cheat, steal, whatever as long as the policies get through.
The problem is not that there is an Alt-Right that might be nationalist or worse, but that the Core-Left has exposed itself as entirely amoral and corrupt.
The only left worth any salt is the left of Jesus Christ,do unto others,peace among men,and you can’t take it with you,something Jesus haters can’t comprehend.
Isn’t it time we cut old Joe McCarthy a bit of a break?
When the secrets of the Venona Project was made public sometime around 2006, it became clear that his lists were actually based on SIGINT, and that it was not a complete witch hunt. This sort of muddles the difinition of “McCarthyite”.
Let’s go back to the term witch hunt, and keep old Joe out of it.
I agree, Old Joe was a good man and an American hero historically speaking.
So, who was McCarthy right about? I thought the VENONA material used code names.
THE LOAD OF DONKEY POO THEY ARE PUSHING , THE RUSSIANS GOT TRUMP ELECTED. HOWEVER THEY CANNOT SAY OR PROVE IT BECAUSE OF NATIONAL SECURITY ? If there was any real evidence Corn Flakes and his vassals would be parading it before White House Press & News Media.
Seema Sapra @SeemaSapraLaw
December 12 2016, 5:03 p.m.
US Government has not issued a proper statement or any statement claiming Russian hacking
Yes. Too early for “decision”. Must keep at this.
The “news”of the alleged Russia hacking is properly described as fake news
I’ve seen no proper statement regarding that. Can you link to it?
and there is a coup in the USA
Undoubtedly, and it’s a coup taken place over about two decades (e.g., Gingrich, Kobach, Husted, GOP trifecta states), and recently complicated by multiple catfights – Bannon vs cu_ks, and HRC ‘neolibs’ vs reformers.
By appearances, Bannon is winning, but the President elect cabinet appointments prove that Bannon was always ideologically indistinguishable from the Koch cu_ks. The remaining question is how closely the Koch cu_ks are entwined with the rest (including Putinist) of the oil and corporate globalists.
Yes, sure, evidence, logic, history, ALL THAT STUFF GLENN!
BUH BUH I WANT TO BELIEVE!
This is all classified far above Glenn’s level. *& Glenn don’t know any ‘anonymous officials’ … mores the pity, bill owen./
Excellent article. Keep calling BS on these ridiculous stories. Other news outlets are running with this as well. I’ve heard it a couple of times on NPR and they seem to be treating this even more definitively than WaPo:
“CIA Finds Russian Hackers Tried To Help Trump’s Election”
Ha
Is it that the story is unbelievable, or is it simply the default Greenwald/Assange house opinion that Putin is our dear friend and would never do such a thing?
Imagine if he had helped Hillary out. Which would win out, your guys Hillary disgust or your love for Putin?
Apart from the lack of concrete evidence and the loss of credibility of US establishment institutions, are you asking if there’s also healthy skepticism that Russia would risk a major international incident by directly interfering in a US election? Yes, I believe there is.
If Russia were accused of conspiring with the Democrats instead, what would happen? Obviously, in that case, you’d join us in denouncing the absurd fear mongering and McCarthyism.
If there were even a faint whiff Russia helped out the Democrats it would be the biggest scandal in the history of the United States.
There’s such an irony with this “McCarthyism” line–why don’t you snuff out any and all dissent from the “Putin is our boyfriend” line with this ridiculous and exaggerated label.
Corey Robins: Against the Politics of Fear
i am not afraid of Trump.
i am afraid of Hillary and everything behind her 2 faces.
better to deal with the devil you know.
The beating heart of darkness just illuminates the cul de sac so many alleged liberals wrap themselves in,a laughable fear of America first which would liberate US from the actual dark heart of zion,whose by deception they shall rule has so many confused.
I think we have a lot of fifth column phonies here.
Sheesh, sorry Pedinska. I must have been typing my comment above while you were posting yours. If I’d seen it I wouldn’t have posted.
I just wanted to link to it because I respect Prof. Robin’s work, and generally align with his ideas and worldview, and not sure many are aware of it, just like not enough are aware of Prof. Woldin’s, or Prof. Lakoff’s, or Prof. Zinn’s and a whole bunch of others that I think have a much better academic and practical understanding of America’s history, institutions and cultural forces at play than most of the present day commentariat (Glenn and a handful of others excluded) that frames the borders of “serious” debate in this country.
And I bet every one you mention is a zionist,agents of divide and conquer.
You really are a one-note bigot and exceptionally clueless moron.
If you think Profs. Robin, Wolin (sorry for typo above), Zinn, Lakoff or Chomsky for example are about “dividing and conquering” human beings in service of the Zionist state, you’re even dumber than I thought.
The First Amendment does not protect malicious, anti-American “speech” that is intended to overthrow the legitimately and democratically elected President of the United States. It’s time to call for the arrest and prosecution of Washington Post propaganda operatives who are literally staging a “soft coup” via coordinated media fabrications.
Of course it does. Not that overthrow is the intention anyway.
Well, he wasn’t technically “democratically” elected.
My my how swiftly this nonsense is moving. Putin and Trump–models of great leadership, and anyone who says differently I suppose should be sent to the gulag.
Give me a break Tony of course he was democratically elected. Besides we live in a republic not a democracy and if we were governed by the tyranny of the majority you’d still be sharecropping.
We’d have avoided the Bush administration though.
good idea
makes sense to me
however when does the elite class ever go after another elite?
That is a pile of nonsense, contrary to all Supreme Court jurisprudence on free speech and a free press.
While I have you, and as I inquire of many who deploy the term, what constitutes being “anti-American?”
Why don’t we start with you Mona. The anarchical speech that dithers from your greasy fingers every day would be a fine example. That white noise you exihbit truly is Indistinguishable background vibration at this point. Alas, there you have it. And while I have you the fact that our government is considering shutting down fake news outlets Like “the intercept” doesn’t seem to bother you in the least.
there will never be any solid continuous string of “evidence”. you have to pull everything together, including “past performance” (tenet about WMD, etc.), and judge probability.
I acknowledge that there is little evidence. Yet if we’re going to be open-minded, shouldn’t we also bring in consideration of the other extreme? What if Trump is not merely “the better candidate for Russia”, but genuinely loyal to Putin? What if he wants the F-35 thrown into chaos because it is a big threat to Russia, and is sowing discord with China trying to set off a war between Beijing and Taiping in order to destroy any chance for a unified front against Russia? Do we have any evidence to say that what he is doing is not merely partisan but explicitly tailored to promote Russian interests over all else?
by jove that’s it!! manchurian candidate? or kremlin candidate!
He? nah nah nah! Trump got trumped by Bamaman!
http://presstv.com/Detail/2016/12/12/497520/US-F35-Israel-Liberman-Carter-Netanyahu-Gilmore
Taipei? Wouldn’t it be just like the CIA to hang Taipei out to dry?
What if ? what if ? what if ? Lame argument indeed.
What if he’s a reptilian alien who’s about to bring about a new reptilian world order?
Look. Donald Trump will promote interests: His own. What he cares about is his wealth and being perceived as a winner. If doing business with Russia is in line with his personal interests, he will do business with Russia and everyone else who goes along with his agenda.
This is such bullshit! Talk about corruption in our own government….One excuse after another as to why the Democratics lost so now let’s make one up…sad!
Anyone else get the impression that Mr. Greenwald treats his readers like idiots?
The intelligence community screwed up Iraq, therefore they are never ever to be trusted? If I wanted to read that opinion I could have consulted Donald Trump’s Twitter account.
Don’t blindly trust anonymous sources? Well gee Glenn, thanks. I was practically a mindless automaton until you set me straight on that one.
Meanwhile Trump stuffs his cabinet full of Putin buddies and meanwhile Glenn still has a lot to answer for in this regard.
But of course it’s all neo-McCarthyism, because we’re all dumb-dumbs!
Indeed, there is not enough evidence to validate the CIA’s assessment. That’s why Obama’s review and Congress’ and the private security assessments will be important. Consensus matters.
But what I find striking is that Glenn and the rest of TI don’t use any of their resources to do their own investigative reporting on this matter. Why is that? Perhaps they have no sources, which would be pretty damn sad, but I doubt they’re incompetents. Hell, Scahill had a source in AQAP so I think they’re capable. So what do TI’s Russian and U.S. sources have to say about this? What about private security officials? TI needs to quit being reactive here; just summarizing others’ work, and instead supplement it by getting in the mix themselves.
Yeah but I’m afraid that’s about as likely as RT doing an expose.
Do you really believe they aren’t investigating this behind the scenes? They would love to have a new scoop, surely. Scahill & Schwartz have a new article pressuring the Obama administration to declassify what they claim they have. (The bet is that there’s no there there.)
They’ve contributed nothing to the discussion.
Hopefully that changes
“They’ve contributed nothing to the discussion.”
You first.
Yea, other than non-hysterical analysis and a healthy request for concrete evidence.
That’s a contribution of common sense. My expectations are higher than that.
Well yeah, because WMD was the CIS’s only sin, wasn’t it?
The successes of the CIA which benefit US are classified because there are none.
Break it into a million pieces of shite.
All we have is a WaPo story telling us what some people said to them. Why should we believe WaPo?
Unless the CIA issues an official statement, the WaPo story is fake news. It cannot even be called government propaganda. As the US Government has not issued a proper statement or any statement claiming Russian hacking.
The “news”of the alleged Russia hacking is properly described as fake news and there is a coup in the USA.
That is false and wrong.
First, as Greenwald and many other reasonable others have observed, there is no definition of “fake news.” It’s simply a made-up thing useful primarily for DNC/Clinton hacks. And secondarily, it is useful for Trump followers and assorted other cranks who shriek that various pieces of journalism that debunk their unhinged conspiracy theories are publishing “fake news.”
Additionally, uncritical spewing of government claims, whether true or not — and sourcing to anonymous government sources and agencies with a very low reputation for truth-telling — is quintessential propaganda.
This is all about the CIA and zions fear of being exposed over 9-11.
What else would instigate this attempted coup?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/736223/9-11-tower-Building-7-collapse-fire-conspiracy
Adam Schiff sure did/does seem oddly nervous and ready to strike like a coiled snake – it’s weird. What, the mossad had planned and was co-ordinating the WTC attack?
“This is all about the CIA and zions fear of being exposed over 9-11.”
JFK was ready to smash the CIA after the Bay of Pigs. Perhaps someone is trying to smash them again, for 911.
Russia seems to have rescued Syria from the CIA/Zionist dream of a new homeland for Palestinians.
To several about this story:
WaPo: Donald Trump is going to get somebody killed
Gert writes:
In Chrome you can get there incognito. (h/t Bill Owen)
As for Karl: The WaPo link is to the Plum Line blog. They are independent of the rest of the site and are generally smart and reliable.
Moreover, WaPo publishes some good stories and opinions, as for example Bart Gellman’s Snowden-documents reporting, or the op-eds Glenn has published there. Pieces in which the fact claims are either not controversial or they are well-supported.
The facts coupled with reasoning in Plum Line blog’s examination of the myriad lunacies Trump and/or his supporters promote are compelling and worrisome.
The best way to sell a lie to the American public is to sandwich it between two truths. The fact that there are exceptional stories which occasionally come from the Washington Post does not negate the fact that, as a BLoved opinion shaper for the CIA, every article must be scrutinized with a jaundiced eye. Even the name of the blog itself is seductively suggestive of Mark Twain and his his capacity to fathom the muddy waters of the Mississippi; who, better then Twain, could engage the American people with fictions that are purportedly meant to convey higher (noble) truths? I have repeatedly posted the Grahams illustrious collaboration with the CIA on Intercept threads, so I will not belabor the point.
Until the CIA comes out with an official statement on the alleged Russian hacking, all of this is fake news.
Its a coup in the USA.
+1
Has the White House issued an official statement on the alleged Russian hacking?
not to my knowledge – and they likely absolutely will not
the “We need to look into this” is as far as they will go.
WHY?
LAFF NOW – The WHITE HOUSE DOES NOT TRUST THE CIA!
(but wapo does) heh.
Yes, because “official statements” from the CIA are always so trustworthy. [eyes rolling]
Moreover, government propaganda, including lies and falsehoods, does not constitute “fake news.” It is and remains propaganda. No one has offered a sensible explanation of what this new thing — “fake news” — supposedly is.
Zeynep Tufekci @zeynep is striving mightily (and failing to do so) in convo’s with Adam Johnson and Marcie Wheeler.
“it’s not fake news when the NYT does it” (or some such crap)
Re: miltonwiltmellow at https://theintercept.com/2016/12/10/anonymous-leaks-to-the-washpost-about-the-cias-russia-beliefs-are-no-substitute-for-evidence/?comments=1#comment-322149
I didn’t evade your question at all. I used exactly the same technique you did in posing it, making assumptions of my own to counter the one you made. The one that began with the word If.
Emails, hacking, collusion, and social media manipulation are all tentacles of the same sea creature.
Yes, that’s very true, which makes my point about how the DNC/Clinton campaign should have used better computer security absolutely applicable no matter how much you want me to set it aside as a mere detail. Details, after all, can also be alluded to as “facts”. You don’t get to accuse Russia of interfering then pick and choose which bits of interference you want to consider important milton. That’s just dishonest argumentation.
I think you argue that voters vote. Their votes silence all dispute. Misinformation, miscounts, mistakes, and miserable winners don’t count.
That isn’t what I argued at all, but keep setting up those strawmen to destroy. In fact, what I said was that the emails likely DID count, I just didn’t characterize them as misinformation, as you would prefer. As for the rest, I would be just as happy as you to see those things no longer affect our elections. ALL elections, not just presidential ones, so if you have suggestions for doing away with them in entirety in our system of so-called democracy then have at it. Barring that and/or a successful Clintonista campaign to do away with the electoral college then, once the voters vote, yes, it is, in fact, a done deal, no matter the disputes which have, demonstrably, NOT been silenced (and I’m fine with that too because nothing will change without dispute).
Then you call arguments regarding nuclear war specious. Well, I would say that it’s not specious to note that we’ve already had such near-confrontations with Russia. I believe that’s what happened during the Cuban missile crisis. YMMV, of course, on decisions about where/when we should be pressing one of the few other countries who have nuclear arsenals that compete on a level close to our own – even as we continue to meddle in the affairs of countries on their very borders, something we wouldn’t tolerate ourselves – but I would suggest that the public should first be given absolute fucking proof, as opposed to what we’ve been given thus far, before we start talking about which big sticks we will apply in our hegemonic battles.
We should have learned something by now about how escalation happens in conflict and the dire consequences that result from insinuations/misrepresentations/outright lies, but we probably won’t because the only thing that seems to matter anymore is our national and/or partisan pride.
Right now I’m trying to process the fire-hose of insanity that is US politics. On the one hand, Trump is backed by generals and Goldman Sachs bankers…just as Clinton was. On the other hand, Trump leaves open the possibility that decades old backroom deep-state consensus may be discarded.
But ultimately, voters knew what Trump was. He made it no secret that he was unpredictable, inexperienced, had vast holdings and conflicts of interest, including in Russia, had no respect for others or convention.
So why the freak-out?
Not sure I understand your question. Americans who voted for Trump aren’t freaked out. They view his unpredictability, inexperience, vast holdings, and lack of respect for others or convention as highly positive attributes. Americans who did not vote for Trump are freaked out because they see those attributes as scary.
That’s exactly what I meant Gator, my sarcasm, as usual, doesn’t come through in whatever font this site uses.
“So why the freak-out?”
Your snark display correctly on my machine, what browser are you using, Gator?
Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense.
Nonsense #1. In advertising, litigation, news presentation, and virtually everything else since be fore the Age of Rationalism, we understand that others points of view differ from our own. Calling different points of view “dishonest” is … well, … the reader can supply whatever term they want.
Nonsense #2. I can accuse anyone of anything. My obligation is to objective reality, not to the target of my accusation. (Generally speaking.) Those facts, details, and various other phenomena you disparage as “dishonest” are critical to making an accusation. Unlike the virulent right (<- yes, that's pejorative), my goal isn't political advantage or obfuscation. Truth matters no matter how you try to diminish its inclusion in an argument.
Nonsense #3. I haven't yet made a case that Russia is guilty. I've tried to make the case that Russia's interference should be considered rather than peremptorily dismissed as a partisan attempt to discredit Trump's election. I haven't even started talking about means, motive, opportunity, and history that implicates Russia.
If you can't handle the mere suggestion of Russian intervention in the US election — or even the kind and degree of interference, I suspect you will run from the facts like they are a swarm of bees and you will a handful of their honey.
(Now I'll continue reading. I hope there's less nonsense to follow.)
what (we) cannot handle is the insistance that the words of few constitute physical evidence just because they say they determined it. That is a violation of trust because it PRECLUDES one from making a due process challenge. And as you know, due process in the US is being whittled away with wmd, NDAA (carl levin) and secret spy courts and laws.
If one is content going down that road then one should also expect that one’s leanings (from lack of overt support to the contrary) without feeling one is being challenged to a duel. ;-)
The point of elections, I think, isn’t just the act of voting but demands an act of participation in government. By voting, we citizens and those elected acknowledge the primacy of the person rather than the dominance of those serving in public office.
They are here for us rather than us for them.
In history, this is a rather stunning reversal of feudalism, monarchy and various autocracies. The ritual of voting demands an acceptance of democracy.
We’ve lost that. In the coverage, in the speeches, in the rallies, in the advertising, in the money, in the secrecy, in the partisanship, the vote has become an empty ritual. Putting aside the two most recent lip-flappers, we realistically don’t matter as individuals. The vote is about factions rather than a nation of citizens trying to determine what’s best in a deeply troubling world.
Of the thousand or so posts here, very few show any appreciation for the grand experiment of democracy; the catcalls and hand waving seem entirely in the domain of spectators at a sporting event rather than participants in self-government.
So no … or yes … whatever … the best solution is the one we have.
And it isn’t working.
Worse, and this is the problem with Russian intervention in the US election, we can’t know the truth. There’s not even a forum — not a court, not a congress, not a campaign, not a newspaper. The State has lost its credibility so that many would rather a buffoon in charge than a technocrat in charge.
I doubt either truly reflect the wisdom and influence of the electorate. So despair becomes the default.
Then the winners, those who complained most before the election, insist that they won fair and square.
Trump blabbers himself into a simple truth: it’s only fair if I win.
Who disagrees … when they win?
Who agrees … when they suffer?
Having ceded our agency as citizens, why do we think we have a right to complain?
So Putin smirks, “indeed.”
Just to move laterally a bit, There’s a CNN piece with Van Jones talking to actual people, after the election, one of the few times the cable channel blows the budget, travels to talk to real Americans, (as opposed to having talking heads talk about them)
What I found illuminating was this passage:
It’s a good illustration of the limitations of logic in the context of US politics. To non-Americans, and many Americans as well, it is a no-brainer that there should be some control over automatic handguns used in the tens of thousands of gun deaths each year in America. You register your car….why not your gun?
But to many Americans, it’s: You elect Clinton….you starve for lack of meat in the freezer.
How do you hold a democracy together with that level of disconnect?
it’s a complicated issue. It’s the difference between part time and full time law breakin’. Cattle rustling and poaching are illegal – especially in the off season. Taking the guns only exaccerbates the issue as game traps and bear traps work, but aren’t really a sharing sporting event. Making matters worse, when the ice caps finish melting there will be NO SNOW. Without snow the rivers dry up, ponds and lakes will fester before drying up, disease will spread, food supplies will dry up, people will go starving crazy mad insane, so how do you protect what is left in your freezer?
Let’s be clear: the 2nd Amendment was not ratified by the state legislatures to protect the right to go hunting.
It was ratified to assure the self-defense of the people against any threat to their security, including a government gone out of control.
Not to suggest that could ever really happen, of course.
Van Jones is the one suffering a disconnect. The problem of perpetual killings in the cities is one of motives, not means.
How will having to register automatic pistols, lead to “a government out of control”?
I’m sure their research was at least as thorough as yours regarding the sources providing the WikiLeaks emails… or are you absolved from having to meet your own standards?
Keep them honest Glenn. Another great read. I do like your style of writing..
GG for SCOTUS!!!!
HuffPo headline:
Or it could be the confused Kenyan Socialist Party that wants Obama to stay in office. Because, you know … it took such a long time to put their catspaw in place.
It could the the Canadians who want to encourage a flood of American refugees to visit Canada on tourist visas and bring all their money with them.
It could be the people of Atlantis who’ve decided they should start colonization of the soon to be abandoned cities along the Eastern seaboard. They’re already targeting Miami.
Or maybe it’s ISIS who’ve calculated their chances for installing the Caliphate in America are much better with a doofus like Trump in charge.
In related news, the poor William of Ockham has been hospitalized after using his razor on his own wrists … again.
Only John Bolton could push an insane conspiracy theory to counter another.
Do you actually think it insane that the PTB wouldn’t like to retain puppet #1?
A no brainer,but of course attainable only by deception,which is how they rule,btw.
The creepy moderator loves the CIA,Obomba and zion,despite her rhetoric to the contrary,I notice.
You forgot about the Inhumans. The ones that live at the Earth’s core. Perhaps they are just biding their time.
This whole farce smells like DNC politics to me. IMO, the DNC is setting the stage for Act 1 of a Trump presidency. They are going to badger him with the Red Stooge Label for 4 years in the same manner Trump badgered Obama for the birth certificate.
The only difference is that the DNC hasn’t released the Promo name for it yet. I’m sure that will be coming in the next few weeks.
lol – anyone seen debbie wasserman schultz lately? maybe working behind the scenes? under cover, of darkness?
Exiled off mainstreet
“…….Noted British diplomat Craig Murray, a friend and associate of Assange, meanwhile, has fully discredited the accusers and exposed them as a desperate, seditious conspiracy……”
Craig Murray thoroughly exposes his political agenda and – at the same time – thoroughly discredits a reference to himself as a human rights activist with this doozy at the end of his blog article:
“……..As thankfully the four year agony of Aleppo comes swiftly to a close today, the Saudi and US armed and trained ISIS forces counter by moving to retake Palmyra. This game kills people, on a massive scale, and goes on and on…….”
It is hard to call yourself a “human rights activist” (with a straight face) when you support the continued targeting of hospitals and indiscriminate bombing of civilians by the Russians and the Assad regime in the Syrian conflict. It takes an incredible amount of arrogance to accuse the CIA of lying while you have a massive lie at the top of your blog (“human rights activist”). Craig Murray is certainly no human rights activist. Most human rights activist don’t support bombing of any sort let alone what is going on in Aleppo. Craig Murray is far left wing anti-American political hack just like Assange which is why they are friends. He has a political agenda (like most of us).
Murray presents zero evidence for the DNC hack being an insider job. We are just supposed to take his word for it. If he knows the hacker then name him. After all, isn’t Greenwald railing against the Washington Post for using anonymous sources?
Yea, I’m sure Craig Murray fully supports the bombing of hospitals and civilians.
He’s made a statement, with his name attached to it, unlike the anonymous CIA officials. Plus Craig Murray is not a liar.
I doubt you’re this much of an idiot. You know damn well you can’t reveal the identity of sources who could be put in danger if their identity is revealed. The source would need to come forward on their own. It’s not the same when the government itself is granted anonymity to push its narratives without accountability. This has been explained countless times.
“…….He’s made a statement……”
Who cares? Where is the proof?
“……I doubt you’re this much of an idiot. You know damn well you can’t reveal the identity of sources who could be put in danger if their identity is revealed. ……”
Really – pure bullshit. He is in danger of going to jail because what he did was illegal. Indeed, he can always take refuge in Russia, right? That individual is going to have to come forward because no one is going to take the word of a friend of Assange except idiots on the far left.
“……. Plus Craig Murray is not a liar……”
Calling himself a human rights activist is a lie. They are almost the first words in his blog.
You really think someone like Craig Murray would risk his name and reputation by making a false statement? Note that what he’s saying would have to be unequivocally true or false. He can’t weasel out of it by claiming he was “deceived by the intelligence” or anything like that (as you will in time.)
So you are asking me to believe that the CIA, FBI and 15 other US intelligence agencies conspired to wrongly point the finger at Russia knowing that another hacker responsible for the hack could come forward at any time? That independent cyber-security firms (crowdstrike plus two more) with their reputations on the line also joined that conspiracy when they identified the well known footprints of hackers associated with the Russian government (Cozy Bear etc.)? That seems fairly impossible to me, but we will just have to wait and see. That person will have to come forward and be questioned by law enforcement for the Russian theory to go away. Nothing else will suffice
Spy agencies are professional liars, not professional idiots.
All those firms and agencies can weasel out of it by saying “we did have IP addresses and patterns — who could’ve known?” — as per usual. Craig Murray can’t. There’s a qualitative difference between the claims.
you need to understand 2 things since you have gone off the rails here.
1. Craig Murray’s statement is a shot across the bow to the dumb&dumbers stupid enough to push their wmd propaganda into actual action based on their high fallutin BS. Which means that if WAPO or dumbers want to initiate an investigation with consequences, they had better be prepared to look like the fools they are. I am assuming their is another room at an Ecuador embassy.
2. J_ S _ S loves you. Wanna buy a vowel?
“Who cares? Where is the proof? ”
You intentionally go in circles as if somehow people can’t see it Craig. Try something else. It doesn’t fly here.
It’s called EYEWITNESS TESTIMONEY.
It goes like this:
Murray said. “I’ve met the person who leaked them, and they are certainly not Russian and it’s an insider. It’s a leak, not a hack; the two are different things.”
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/12/cias-absence-conviction/
Now go back to sleep and dream up some more stupid diversions that no one believes.
Craigsummers confession
Original text
“Really – pure bullshit. He is in danger of going to jail because what he did was illegal. Indeed, he can always take refuge in Russia, right? That individual is going to have to come forward because no one is going to take the word of a friend of Assange except idiots on the far left.”
Lightly edited for clarity
Really[, my logic is ]pure bullshit. [I’m] in danger of going [going insane] because what [I] did was [immoral, unethical and/or just plain stupid]. Indeed, [I ] can always take [the ridiculous storyline about]Russia[and keep running in circles in the hopes people won’t notice.] [I like to continue government lies about] individual[s who can’t] come forward because [I know they cannot defend themselves so they are an easy target for me. I also know everyone] is going to take the word of a friend of Assange [over] idiots [like me but what else can I do?]
hey craig – are you in Haifa?
you know, Haifa Israel?
you know, israel? the rogue apartheid state just south of lebanon and west of iraq and south of syria and north of egypt?
you know, that place that refuses to sign the NPT and is sitting on 200 – 750 intercontinental ballistic missiles which acts in perhaps more self defence as say, North Korea, and whose leaders are pretty much in the same tent.
Haifa?
A contingent of F35s are due in Israel today,btw.
Another weapon in the arsenal of the rat that roared.
A bonus on 38 billion?
Obomba,the gift that keeps on giving.
I take the point that not wanting to rely on secret, unverified allegations is not the same as opposing an investigation. However, an investigation now would most likely be politicized in the service of a foreign policy agenda, namely hostility against Putin and Russia. The accusations against Russia are a hue-and-cry instigated by a bi-partisan, pro-war cabal. Might we not be better off to debate foreign policy, rather than be drawn into an argument that will probably not clarify anything very much, anyway?
Alas, Foreign policy is highly classified and can only be spoken of in hushed whispers off the record.
Thankfully, the paper of record endeavors to clear some the muddy waters around foreign policy, now quoting un-named ‘law endorcements’ officials:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/11/us/politics/cia-judgment-intelligence-russia-hacking-evidence.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
“But that wasn’t real socialism.” -the perennially embarrassed progressive left
“But Neoconservatives are not real conservatives” -the perennially embarrassed conservative right
Nope, Only since 2003. Nice try, though.
There is about an inch worth of difference in neocons and neolibs,and the inch is malleable to the point of invisibility.
Is Greenwald going to try to get some of his credibility back after his pitiful display during the election?
Yes, he displayed such poor analytical skills wrt both candidates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3PUwSqnU8A&feature=youtu.be
You’d have to be demented to think his clear non-partisanship and rational approach to extraordinary claims hurts his credibility.
“Is Greenwald going to try to get some of his credibility back after his pitiful display during the election?”
Baseless claim.
Really, is this the best you can do? Perhaps a link or two to give an example of such failures is in order. Can you supply any shred of evidence that your question has any merit whatsoever?
Joe may not be able to validate his claim, but I can.
Glenn’s 2016 Presidential Election coverage was abysmal. He had an agenda to drive his reporting and it exploded in his face. I explain this in the following:
https://theintercept.com/2016/11/09/democrats-trump-and-the-ongoing-dangerous-refusal-to-learn-the-lesson-of-brexit/#comment-305739
https://theintercept.com/2016/11/18/the-stark-contrast-between-the-gops-self-criticism-in-2012-and-the-democrats-blame-everyone-else-posture-now/?comments=1#comment-311293
So, IF the choice of which criminal should lead the corruption
has supposedly been determined by a criminal from
outside of the established democrat/republican corruption,
then I guess I should have voted for Vladimir Putin because
he is clearly the most intelligent and forthcoming
of all of these criminals.
criminals indeed
just out –
1. first the dumb&dumbers of MI? (cia sibling) say that russia is a threat to terrorism in britain.
2. Boris Johnson (good man foreign office) tells it like it is
The British government “has been selling billions of dollars [worth] of arms to nepotistic despots in the Persian Gulf region without an iota of concern about human rights,” he added.
So who is fomenting terrorism? Obviously the populations of America and UK are being victimised by the party jackasses playing to their thieving greedy wallstreet tycoons and backed by the propagandist media and lying gov agencies which get Americans killed. And these rats want to blame Putin?
http://presstv.com/Detail/2016/12/12/497531/UK-Iran-Saudi-Arabia-Persian-Gulf-Afrasiabi
(they dont print this stuff in the US)
BritishRoyal family is one of the top 6 global wealthiest families– keep it going. All the nice titles insure consolidate and insure the venue.
Russia forced Hillary to use a private server, they forced the campaign to write embarrassing emails, they forced the DNC to break its own charter by foregoing neutrality, and they programmed Hillary to be a lousy candidate.
Damn, they’re omnipotent as well as nefarious!
What’s going on here is an attempt by the Dems to overturn the election if they can or to at least de-legitimize it. They already have their hacks going on TV to claim the election was illegitimate. Bouie (sp?) of Slate is the latest to appear on one of the news channels and make the claim that the election was illegitimate. They’ll use whatever tools are in their rusty tin box.
hillarious!
and the dems have now joined the ranks of the conspiracy theorists they so self-righteously condemn. Hillary needs to be prosecuted.
The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has issued a report against US President-elect Donald Trump because the spy agency is run by political appointees of the Obama administration, according to Dave Lindorff, an American author and investigative journalist.
http://presstv.com/Detail/2016/12/12/497542/CIA-run-political-appointees-Obama-administration
the cia is an insect colony
The CIA is a secret society. (It was also founded at Yale inside another secret society.)
funny.
my sources tell me that the cia is an outgrowth of the OAS? from ww2. And the skull and bones without the blood and guts is a cult of cowards that the Bush’s pray to.
and in case the Dumb&Dumbers still want a no-fly-zone, and in case the pimped out wallstreet media havent the weybones to announce to the American people because they are still pushing wmd, mil contracts and death..
Operation to liberate Aleppo reaches end, militants leave last holdouts
presstv
thanks to BH2 for an enlightening post
https://theintercept.com/2016/12/10/anonymous-leaks-to-the-washpost-about-the-cias-russia-beliefs-are-no-substitute-for-evidence/?comments=1#comment-322563
and noticing how the new york times is betraying America with their WMD style propaganda to fomenet wars and get Americans killed.
My pleasure, barrabas.
Funny thing is that I don’t find that posting when I look for it here.
Moreover, I just posted another comment a little while ago and it also hasn’t appeared. So I posted it again, just for good measure! Also with no luck.
I suppose it could be my comments are just awaiting moderation. Strange since I’ve never noticed that before.
Oh, no … could it be those damn, wily Russians are once again up to no good? :)
NYT dispatched today their email summary of daily stories, including this one:
“C.I.A. Judgment on Russia Built on Swell of Evidence”
That’s a typo. They meant “Swill”.
If you have access, this “article” is perhaps one of the finest tapestries of propaganda ever woven together in a single work of art since Goebbels perfected Bernays’ teachings. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/11/us/politics/cia-judgment-intelligence-russia-hacking-evidence.html
Take, for example, this precious gem: “The F.B.I. began investigating Russia’s apparent attempts to meddle in the election over the summer. Agents examined numerous possible connections between Russians and members of Mr. Trump’s inner circle, including former Trump aides like Paul Manafort and Carter Page, as well as a mysterious and unexplained trail of computer activity between the Trump Organization and an email account at a large Russian bank, Alfa Bank.”
Got that? There was an “unexplained trail of computer activity” and (presumably also unexplained) “email account at a large Russian bank”. Well, both were explained, actually, and quickly dismissed as vile hype.
But apparently the “journalists” who concocted this narrative were standing behind the door when that hyped up story was publicly dismissed as phony. Well known news apparently doesn’t always reach the newsroom when confirmation bias filters it out.
Here’s the Snopes analysis, including how the Hillary campaign piled on to promote this fake news, about which one twitter commenter declares: “This is some shameful shit “:
http://www.snopes.com/trump-server-tied-to-russian-bank/
This is a supreme example of full-blown yellow journalism. And the Times editors doubtless know very well they are actively trading in fake news (AKA “shameful shit”).
Let it never slip from our memory that we must, indeed, forever “Remember the Maine!”
“it’s not a lie, if you believe it.” – George Costanza
Excellent article, the best I have seen on this topic. The simultaneous leaking by anonymous officials of secret documents into the Washington Post, NY Times, and Huffington post reeks of desperation, a last ditch effort to invalidate a democratic election. You raise an excellent point that interagency fighting between the CIA and the FBI may be behind this. I wouldn’t absolve Obama, however. He has prosecuted media leaks more than all other presidents put together. We have seen repeated official “leaks” alleging Russian interference. No repeated leaks occur without Obama’s acquiescence, if not complicity. While befriending Trump in public, Obama is doing his best to create enmity between Trump and the CIA. The CIA is famous for overturning governments, lets hope they don’t succeed in the US.
If all this is in the favour of Russia and if it is destabilising US then there must be a lot of Russian agents within the CIA. So clean them out!
The only foreign agents in the CIA are zionists.In fact,it and the SD are totally in the tank for a foreign criminal government called Israel,which of course is as clear as day to patriots,but traitors disagree.
Let US salute the Electoral College which saved US from more zionist dictatorship,at least until they carry out this attempted end around on American democracy.
Remember,whom the gods destroy they first make mad.
it might also be quite worthy to note that Julian Assange and Craig Murray, both of whom know the identity of the leaker, have unequivocally stated it was not Russia. This has CIA “soft coup” written all over it. How many coups has the CIA been involved in, either attempted or successful? It’s at least 4 dozen between 1953 and 2011… then it’s probably a duck.
“Who are the people summarizing these claims to the Washington Post?”
There are some people who should get a free shower in a facility in Cuba. After a good cleanup they might tell you who is behind it.
A “colored revolution” in the US might please a lot of people but in my opinion it would harm the whole world!
Sicerely George Soros
(have a nice X-mas)
What I find really incredible is that The Kremlin is winning all its battles: Hacking in order to influence USelections, Crimea, Aleppo, Snowden, Wikileaks, RT, Sputnik, 85%positive ratings……etc. While the White house is losing all its battles: HRC election defeat, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Ukraine, divided USA……etc. At one point over here in Europe we might change sides and join the winner instead of sticking with the loser !
I couldn’t agree more. You would think that a leader with an amazingly high job performance rating at home wouldn’t need to jail his political opponents or assault and murder journalists. Go figure.
Psst: the loss of Ukraine to the west was not a “win” for the former KGB agent.
Psst: He loves you who loves all others.
Psst: the loss of Ukraine to the west was not a “win” for the former KGB agent.
Foreign government intervenes in other nations’ domestic politics, Episode: Ukraine
Looks like craig’s ok with neo-nazis. At least, in some circumstances.
I am wondering if red- hack bating is the Dem Elite’s deflective tactic to preempt the many court cases that might find many illegalities with our primary/presidential electronic voting system. A system that does not hold voting machines accountable to any one election official or company or even demand impartial open review of elections where partisan warfare justifies the means. I wonder….
I agree with and thank you for the points you make about what is honest, competent journalism — as contrasted with the propaganda that the Post and our Government are feeding us. However, I still have the basic question: Why did Wikileaks choose to intervene in our Presidential election, by selectively releasing at several key points during the presidential campaign certain confidential materials that were obviously harmful to only one candidate (the Democratic one)?
Why do you define telling the truth as intervention?
Does every leak of every kind of compromising information about a politician count as intervention, or is it just this one?
Perhaps no one should reveal anything, particularly foreigners – they might be intervening.
why do you assume wikileaks had confidential materials that were harmful to trump to release? the materials were harmful because of the actions of clinton and her campaign, i’d think we would want transparency.
Why are you assuming that if the Russians had RNC material, they would have given it to WK?
why would you insist the the citizens of the US be condemned to believing any fantasy some secret source comes up with? are you a facist?
“Intervene” is the correct choice of words. The WikiLeaks intervention was not about “truth”, but about influencing the election for political reasons.
Wikileaks can’t leak materials they don’t have. When someone comes forward with shit on trump (which I bet there is), im sure they’ll leak it.
Wikileaks has a 10 year record of reporting the truth and a Pulitzer prize for journalism. They’ve published plenty of material regarding corruption all around the world entirely outside of US politics as well.
This isn’t an intervention. The democrats shouldn’t of played dirty, and now that they’ve been caught with their hands dirty their mindless supporters are crying foul on the same organization that exposed the bush administrations lies.
I concur with Justin Raimondo, quoted in Mr. Sapra’s response, that this is an attempted “soft coup” a la Brazil. I would remind the CIA and the corrupt, fascist Post that the old adage that when one shoots at the king, one dare not miss, might be a factor here. These actions by the Clintons and their acolytes now seem like sedition. Not directly on point but relevant is the proven fact of Israeli influence exercised in numerous US elections. Noted British diplomat Craig Murray, a friend and associate of Assange, meanwhile, has fully discredited the accusers and exposed them as a desperate, seditious conspiracy.
These actions by the Clintons and their acolytes now seem like sedition.
THEY SURE DO.
Stop the CIA Coup
The Deep State versus Donald Trump
by Justin Raimondo, December 12, 2016
at original.antiwar.com/justin/2016/12/11/stop-cia-coup/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
“The CIA is up to its old tricks: overthrowing a democratically elected government. Only this time it’s our government.
As they are now legally allowed to do ever since the law against covert CIA propaganda in the United States was repealed, the Agency has leaked to the Washington Post reports – via anonymous third parties – of its alleged assessment of a Russian campaign to hand Donald Trump the White House:
“The CIA has concluded in a secret assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump win the presidency, rather than just to undermine confidence in the U.S. electoral system, according to officials briefed on the matter.
“Intelligence agencies have identified individuals with connections to the Russian government who provided WikiLeaks with thousands of hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and others, including Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman, according to US officials. Those officials described the individuals as actors known to the intelligence community and part of a wider Russian operation to boost Trump and hurt Clinton’s chances.
“’It is the assessment of the intelligence community that Russia’s goal here was to favor one candidate over the other, to help Trump get elected,’ said a senior US official briefed on an intelligence presentation made to US senators. “That’s the consensus view.”
The reaction of the Trump transition team was swift and cutting: “These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The election ended a long time ago in one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history. It’s now time to move on and ‘Make America Great Again.’”
This reference to the “intelligence failure” that led us into the most disastrous war in our history is not mere rhetoric: if you’ll recall, there was plenty of dissent within the intelligence community over the Bush administration’s conclusion that Iraq had WMD, and was getting ready to deploy, but this was stripped from the public documents. Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby made several trips to Langley to browbeat analysts into submission and give the administration the talking points they wanted to justify the invasion.
It’s important to note that this leak was published just as President Obama announced he was ordering a full-scale review of the intelligence: the Washington Post story was an effort to get out ahead of that and put the CIA’s conclusions on the record before the review could be made public. This is obliquely alluded to in the Post’s story:
“The CIA presentation to senators about Russia’s intentions fell short of a formal US assessment produced by all 17 intelligence agencies. A senior US official said there were minor disagreements among intelligence officials about the agency’s assessment, in part because some questions remain unanswered.” [emphasis added]
As we get down into the weeds, these unspecified “minor disagreements” seem a bit more major than the reporters at the Post would have us believe:
“Intelligence agencies do not have specific intelligence showing officials in the Kremlin ‘directing’ the identified individuals to pass the Democratic emails to WikiLeaks, a second senior US official said. Those actors, according to the official, were ‘one step’ removed from the Russian government, rather than government employees.”
What does it mean to be “one step removed” from the Russian intelligence apparatus? Well, it means anything the CIA wants it to mean: it is clearly a subjective judgment, akin to the “criteria” by which the web site propornot.com identifies “Russian agents”: if you hold certain views, you must be “Putin’s puppet.” Another similarity to the propornot scam is that the “officials” cited throughout the Post piece are anonymous: we don’t know their motives, their positions, or whatever other information is necessary to evaluating their credibility.
What is missing from the Post’s story is any evidence: it is simply a series of assertions, offered without proof of any kind. That the Democrats, the warmonger wing of the GOP, and the media (or do I repeat myself?), are seizing on this was all too predictable. What separates this out from the usual rhetorical overkill that has characterized this election season is that it is being invoked as a reason for the Electoral College to vote for someone other than President-elect Trump.
“Ex”-CIA analyst Bob Baer – the unofficial media spokesman for the Deep State – is calling for “a new election,” although he wants to “see the forensics first.” (Guess what, Bob, there are no reliable “forensics”!). John Dean, White House counsel under former president Richard Nixon, “called for the intelligence report on Russia’s role to be made available to the 538 members of the electoral college before 19 December, when they formally vote to elect the next president.” Retiring Senate minority leader Harry Reid accused the FBI of covering up the intelligence assessment, and called on director Comey to resign. The “progressive” Twitterverse lit up with hysterical accusations of “treason,” and not so subtle hints that the Electoral College must repudiate Trump.
Meanwhile, former British diplomat Craig Murray threw a monkey wrench into the coup plotters’ campaign by asserting what I’ve been saying in this space all along: that publication of the DNC and John Podesta emails weren’t hacks, but rather were leaks. Murray, a close associate of Julian Assange, had this to say to the Guardian:
“Craig Murray, the former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan, who is a close associate of Assange, called the CIA claims ‘bullshit,” adding: ‘They are absolutely making it up.’
“’I know who leaked them,’ Murray said. ‘I’ve met the person who leaked them, and they are certainly not Russian and it’s an insider. It’s a leak, not a hack; the two are different things.
“’If what the CIA are saying is true, and the CIA’s statement refers to people who are known to be linked to the Russian state, they would have arrested someone if it was someone inside the United States. America has not been shy about arresting whistleblowers and it’s not been shy about extraditing hackers. They plainly have no knowledge whatsoever.”
Of course we had to go to the British media in order to read this.
Let’s be clear about what we actually know – and, just as importantly, what we don’t know — about the WikiLeaks email releases:
1) There is not a lick of evidence that the Russians, or anyone else, “hacked” the DNC/Podesta emails. That is, we don’t know if someone used electronic means to obtain them, or if it was an insider, i.e. a person with access who subsequently turned them over to WikiLeaks
2) It is nearly impossible to trace the source of a hack using “scientific,” i.e. purely technical, means. As cyber-security expert Jeffrey Carr puts it, the methods of the professional cyber-security industry are essentially what he calls “faith-based attribution.” Furthermore, the methodology that firms such as CrowdStrike used in supposedly uncovering the “Russian hackers” in the DNC case are classic examples of confirmation bias and laughably inadequate.
3) Julian Assange denies that the Russians are the source of the emails, and although he refuses to identify the person or persons responsible, someone he has worked closely with and his known to have his confidence, Craig Murray, is now telling us that it wasn’t a hack, it was an insider who leaked the documents. That this is being steadfastly ignored in the American media is hardly surprising: after all, it was WikiLeaks that exposed the “mainstream” media’s active collaboration with the Clinton campaign, and the media was clearly in Clinton’s camp.
4) A key element of the CIA campaign is that the Republican National Committee was also hacked by the same Russian spooks, and yet nothing was posted on WikiLeaks Note how this assumes the premises of the conspiracy theorists: that it was the Russians who hacked the DNC/Podesta emails and that WikiLeaks is merely an extension of the Kremlin. Also note that the Republican National Committee denies it was hacked, and furthermore please note the fact that Colin Powell’s emails were indeed posted by DC Leaks, along with routine emails from various GOP operatives that had no particular significance.
So what is going on here?
When Trump supporters opined that the “Deep State” would never allow the populist real estate mogul to take office, I was skeptical. This seemed to me like a made-for-television movie script rather than a real possibility: after all, what could they actually do, aside from using force to prevent him from taking the oath of office?
However, as the campaign progressed, and the Clintonites became progressively more unhinged in their attacks on Trump, the Russian angle became more prominent: former acting CIA Director Mike Morell’s accusation that Trump is an “unconscious agent” of the Kremlin, and “not a patriot,” seemed over the top at the time, but in retrospect looks more like it was laying the groundwork for the current CIA-driven propaganda campaign.
But why would the CIA, in particular, have a special aversion to Trump? Marcy Wheeler, whose analytical abilities I respect despite our political disagreements, has this to say:
“First, if Trump comes into office on the current trajectory, the US will let Russia help Bashar al-Assad stay in power, thwarting a 4-year effort on the part of the Saudis to remove him from power. It will also restructure the hierarchy of horrible human rights abusing allies the US has, with the Saudis losing out to other human rights abusers, potentially up to and including that other petrostate, Russia. It will also install a ton of people with ties to the US oil industry in the cabinet, meaning the US will effectively subsidize oil production in this country, which will have the perhaps inadvertent result of ensuring the US remains oil-independent even though the market can’t justify fracking right now.
“The CIA is institutionally quite close with the Saudis right now, and has been in charge of their covert war against Assad.”
The Saudis, having given millions to the Clinton Foundation, along with their Gulf state allies, were counting on a Clinton victory. The CIA has a longstanding relationship with Riyadh, and together they have been working assiduously to not only overthrow Assad in Syria but to forge a “moderate” Sunni alliance that will effectively police the region while establishing the Saudis as the regional hegemon. This was the Clintonian strategy while Hillary was at the helm of Foggy Bottom: Libya, Syria, the alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, are all examples of this utterly disastrous “Sunni turn.”
Trump represents a threat to this grand design, and therefore has to be stopped by whatever means necessary. His desire to “get along with Russia,” his opposition to regime change in Syria, his critique of the Libyan misadventure, his foreign policy stance in general – all this meant that he would come to power and “drain the swamp” of the CIA and the State Department.
The irony here is that the accusation leveled at Trump – that his historic victory represents a successful attempt by a foreign power to take control of the White House – is a classic case of projection. What we are witnessing is a joint CIA-Saudi operation to overthrow the duly elected President of the United States.
In a recent speech given on his “victory tour,” Trump said the following:
“We will pursue a new foreign policy that finally learns from the mistakes of the past. We will stop looking to topple regimes and overthrow governments. Our goal is stability not chaos.”
For the whole of its existence, the CIA has been in the business of toppling regimes that didn’t bow to Washington’s dictates, from Guatemala to Iran to Chile and on and on. The production of chaos is their whole reason for existing. Trump would effectively put them out of business. No wonder they want to destroy him.
We have heard much about how the CIA “assessment” needs to be made public, at least partially: of course, the details will never be published so that ordinary Americans can see them. It’s the old “we have to protect sources and methods” excuse. But cries – from both those who support the CIA and the few skeptics – for an “investigation” into the charges are simply playing into the hands of the Langley crowd. For an investigation assumes that the premises of the CIA’s case – that WikiLeaks is a Russian front, that the emails were actually hacked rather than leaked, and that there is some validity to the assertion that Trump is a “Russian puppet,” as Mrs. Clinton put it – are anything other than the basis of a smear campaign designed to undermine our democratic institutions. We might as well have an “investigation” into “Pizza-gate” or the belief that the moon landing was faked.
Yes, we do need an investigation – into this brazen attempt by the CIA to subvert our democratic institutions, and undermine the office of the President. When Trump takes the oath of office, the very first thing he must do is to launch that probe – and clean house at the CIA. The cancer of subversion that is festering at the core of the national security bureaucracy must be excised, and Trump is just the man to do it.”
The only sentence here that I disagree with “We might as well have an “investigation” into “Pizza-gate” or the belief that the moon landing was faked.
Controlling the narrative is the name of the game. One cannot control the narrative unless on controls both point and counterpoint. When people like Justin Raimondo uses a trailer like the aforementioned “pizza-gate” to close out their arguments, you can be very sure that the primary intent of their article was to delegitimizing “pizzagate” from the get go; else why include it at all? It is akin to Chomsky’s treatment of those who have chosen to question the deeply fraudulent science upon which the 911 commission relied to publish its politically determined conclusions. Chomsky chose to characterize such efforts as a mere “distraction” from more important issues. Truth be told, the foreign policy blow back narrative of a radicalized Islam (in the person of Osama bin Laden) is as advantageous to advancing the aims of the left wing of the CFR as are the “inherently aggressive nature of Islam” arguments to its right wing. It has been the calculated range of debate between these “opposing” wings of the CFR that has almost exclusively informed American foreign policy for decades. Issues like pizza-gate and the WTC attacks of 911 are like free radicals in the body politic; unless they are immediately delegitimized, they could result in a chain reaction that would permanently undermine the illusion of choice (aka “democratic institutions”) offered to us by the corporate sponsored two-party duopoly.
I really have to learn to edit before posting. It is amazing how quickly one spots ones errors just moments after publication. It is as if I am using a different part of my brain when composing. For instance the opening sentence should have read:
Karl, certainly disappointing that Justin Raimondo would off-the-cuff brush off two very real things which need investigating. Especially when the rest of his piece was so spot-on.
netanyahu wants to lead Americans by the nose.
There is a secret source in the CIA that says, THE CIA IS FULL OF SHIT.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-pillar/netanyahus-arrogance-7472
Netanyahu – a clear and present danger to America?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-11/clintons-and-soros-launch-americas-purple-revolution
The globalist left is also trying to launch another color revolution:
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/articles/20161110
The US establishment will use anything to discredit Russia and Putin. They are so obvious that they sound funny. This Trump presidency is going to drive the establishment crazy, we are going to see the most incredible situations in the American politics…daily, they can also be extremely dangerous. For sure Hilary is not going to be quiet, she is a real warmonger even at home. Canada should start thinking seriously on building a wall on the border with the US. That will be fun.
The Canadians tried to build a bridge, but a US oligarch wouldn’t let them. The Canadians even offered to pay for the whole thing.
Sheeesh. What a MOROUN!
http://www.ttnews.com/articles/basetemplate.aspx?storyid=24293
Trudeau is now a proven aristo globalist in compleat thrall to The Empire, Israel, militarism and business.
The only reason he’s going ahead with legalising marijuana is he hopes doped Frostbacks don’t notice his bullshit.
Just a few days ago he reaffirmed his love and devotion for America.
So no wall, no. Integration/annexation? Sure.
Progressives want statism, they got it. Now when will they stop yelling, “D’oh!”?
This article–and Snowden, quoted therein–say if it was indeed Russia, we would easily be able to prove it. Not sure abut the source but it seems to make some good points:
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/12/tell-russia-hacked-election.html#more-64031
Here is evidence of the attempted CIA-Obama-Clinton coup against President Elect Donald Trump.
“Bob Baer, former CIA and current ‘Hunting Hitler’ shill, said in an interview today that if the evidence regarding Russia hacking the elections are true, then the only logical thing to do is to hold new elections.
‘If the evidence is there, I don’t see any other way than to vote again.’ ”
On that bastion of CIA authored fake news -CNN -as outed at http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-10/cia-moves-invalidate-us-presidential-elections-blaming-russian-hacking
Why conclude new election? The nation should instead conclude that P. Obama & his administration are completely incompetent! All Powerful Oz threw down the gauntlet on Aaron Schwartz & fails to foresee an event like a foreign ‘actor’ fuc*#ing with antiquated voting machines?! Rome is burning.
reposting
When the Intercept did a story about the rogue agency’s lying.
“IT’S ABOUT THE LYING” by the CIA
https://theintercept.com/2014/07/31/lying/
When the Intercept did a story about the rouge agency’s lying.
“IT’S ABOUT THE LYING” by the CIA
https://theintercept.com/2014/07/31/lying/
There is now a #CIACoup hashtag on Twitter. And the attempted coup is against President Elect Donald Trump.
What does Obama have to say now on the peaceful transition of power?
Dear Miltion:
There is now a #CIACoup hashtag on Twitter. And the attempted coup is against President Elect Donald Trump. (lsigned “Gullible”)
Dear Gullible,
People planning coups do not tweet their plans.
If you’re terribly apprehensive, try counselling.
And remember, always look on the bright side of life.
Dear Milton:
You might want to consider that not so Gullible did not say that the CIA had launched its coup on Twitter under the hashtag #CIACoup and was tweeting its plans. What not so Gullible was pointing out was that the CIA coup launched through the Washington Post had been described on Twitter by citizen journalists under the said hashtag.
In total relation to any CIA (leaked) “Conclus[ions], a summary:
Regarding Fake News, the New McCarthyism, Blacklists/Watchlists, long-term barrages of (planted stories regarding) Russian threats, danger, and infiltration, along with desires for fulfillment of Censorship (overall) – including ongoing escalations of worldwide propaganda campaigns (with goals for further Regime Changes), consider whether or not it is truth that all these new WMD-style accusations were premeditated and prefabricated (well beforehand). Then, remember this word, PSYOPS – for their operations know no bounds. Whatever it takes to succeed will be undertaken (mostly from behind shadowed/closed doors), regardless of history, human lives, rights, actual democracies, sovereignties, moralities – or any post-Nuremberg statutes/proclamations. Further, remember Donald Rumsfeld (even though it was virtually erased from the internet) saying “We will lie to you”? (They have. They will. They are. They will continue). In addition, long before 9/11, massive surveillance measures (and related campaigns) were already (covertly) taking place (with controlled missions totally successful – beyond sight). Look up the story (or Keith Olbermann’s video) on Qwest Communications being asked to go along with them for a clearer picture of pre-9/11 operations – which could lead many to an understanding of what we really see and hear (of which has been escalating for decades). The PR pushes are presently rolling out nonstop, since a certain time is Now. And soon, the world will know the deeper meanings relating to an expression from a Karl Rove aide:
The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” … “That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
Millions upon millions will (at some present and future points) hold their faces in their hands, while expressing “Oh my God, it’s all a Lie.” Following those points, we (especially the poor) will have to find some way to survive with this new knowledge/truth — in this new ordering of our world.
(For a further historical-enhancing perspective, watch these two videos:
1) Rigged USA Elections Exposed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs
The true picture: Think, at least, 2000, 2004, and possibly 2016. Also, consider it as (most likely) being hacked here (many other times/in many other municipalities, states, cities, etc.) – and that it has absolutely nothing to do with Russia (which is a controlled campaign of actual New McCarthyism and actual Fake (CIA-type) News (Like This One) – as a means of cover for past and upcoming onslaughts).
2) Olbermann: the beginning of the end of America
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqxmPjB0WSs
Prescient. Speaking Truth to Power. Ten Years Later, and. . . .)
Nailed it
Remember, Iraq has “Weapons of Mass Destruction.”
“Belief Without Truth” is the real motto of the faking U$A.
We’ve had several references in this thread to the scary Pizzagate madness. I only had a general grasp of the story until I found a reference, in another WaPo piece I read today, to this excellent long form reporting It’s their hometown, after all):
Highly recommended.
WaPo gets everything wrong. It isn’t about a pizza parlor per se that is merely a venue.
The Clinton mafia doesn’t run it, they are allegedly patrons.
We’ve seen this sort of thing before.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/tours/scandal/gobie2.htm
Doug, yes, that is very good piece. Alex Jones is beloved of Trump. And per that story, this is what the legions of feverish Jones viewers are hearing:
Such claims, when they become pervasively believed, are not innocuous. Last time such an insane pile of garbage spread over the country (and other parts of the globe), real people went to real prisons — for the purported crime of “Satanic ritual abuse” of children at daycare centers.
Just imagine what would have happened if we’d had social media during the McMartin, etc. hysteria.
The Clintonbot fever dream of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat lives on!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/russian-interference-could-give-courts-legal-authority_us_584be136e4b0151082221b9c
Keep on believing… and stock up on ammo!
#TrumpDeniers
See http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/12/trump-mcconnell-putin-and-the-triumph-of-the-will-to-power.html for an execellent rebutal of this misguided piece.
“Russians interfered in the election!”
“How?”
“By hacking into the DNC and releasing emails which showed shady dealings and a clear bias toward the corporatist warmongering of Hillary Clinton over the socialism of Bernie Sanders. These exposed realities made people increase their dislike of Clinton and the Democratic establishment.”
“So, regardless of the hackers’ identity, telling the truth is interfering in the election?”
“Yes, because it was the Russians telling the truth!”
You’re missing the point here. Even if what they – possibly the Russians – gave to Wikileaks was the truth, it’s still a foreign country interfering with the American political system. This time it was the DNC. But, who’s to say who it might be next time. I believe it should be investigated. And, if it is found to be true, we need to figure out how to prevent it in the future.
No, I’m not missing the point, you are avoiding the actual premise of the complaint made – around which all the fuss is being made.
The projection of a sinister utilitarian motive for the hackers upon an anonymous claim is at this point ethereal and insubstantial, and quite secondary to the central fact that if the content of the emails diminished Clinton and the Democrats then they deserved to be diminished, as the public in this “emails affected the election” scenario responded only to the truth displayed. It is well that people at high levels and elsewhere learn to protect themselves from hacking, but the obvious value in releases that expose the compromised antics of the very powerful (from both major parties, and the ruling class generally) seems clear enough.
“I think we’ve got a problem here”
“But you’re not a real doctor”
“Yes, but he thinks I am and I’m not going to betray that trust.”
The Washington Post has gone full treason plain and simple. We are witnessing a soft coupe.
BS.
See http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/12/trump-mcconnell-putin-and-the-triumph-of-the-will-to-power.html
CIA-Clinton-Obama attempted coup against President Elect Donald Trump
“Here’s what’s left of democracy in America.
We had an election, and the candidate favored by Washington, media, and many business elites did not win. Here’s what happened next.
CIA unambiguously but without documentation or evidence presented says, via anonymous leaks, that Russia interceded in the election to help elect Donald Trump.
Democratic Congresspeople, alongside several media outlets, have called for investigations into whether or not Trump colluded with the Russians to influence the election. That would be an impeachable offense, a criminal offense, treason.
The underlying message is that the Russians believe Trump as president will so favor them (for some reason) that they risk war, or a cyber version of war, to see him in power. Trump’s legitimacy is now undermined, and his every action toward the Soviet Union Russia will be tainted.
Meanwhile, Jill Stein, as proxy for Hillary Clinton, raised $7 million over a long weekend after claiming the vote count in three key states was wrong and/or the counting machines (not connected to the web) were hacked and cannot be trusted. A recount could have sent Clinton to the White House.
Clinton supporters continue to try and get the Electoral College to do something it has never done in some 220 years, select a candidate who did not win the most electoral votes.
Hillary Clinton has re-emerged, making speeches and public appearances, concurrent with all of the above.
Democrats as a group continue to insist winning the popular vote entitles Clinton to… something.
Clinton supporters earlier claimed the FBI interceded in the election to defeat Clinton.
Candidate Clinton claimed during a debate the now president-elect is a stooge working on behalf of Putin, literal treason.
This is banana republic crap, people, that looks to negate the votes of some 62 million Americans. We no longer believe in our own system. When the candidate many people did not support wins, the response is to seek to negate the democratic process, via accusations that make McCarthy in the 1950s look like a sad amateur.
What we have are anonymous voices at an intelligence agency supposedly dedicated to foreign intel saying the Russians helped elect our next president. That says the process is flawed and cannot be trusted, and that Trump will owe a debt to the Russians and can’t be trusted. It will keep alive the idea that Clinton should have won if not for this meddling and undermine for his term the legitimacy of Trump. Via the classification process, the CIA will only need to make public the snippets of info that support its contention.
This is an attempted coup as sure as it would be if there were tanks on the White House lawn. The CIA might as well have tried to shoot Trump during his next trip to Dallas.
To date, all of these accusations have been based on anonymous sources and leaks. The president of the United States remains silent.
America, our goose is cooked. You worry about an autocracy? It doesn’t have to be in one man. It can be via an Agency.”
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2016/12/10/peter-van-buren-freedoms-just-another-word/
The wholesale fabrication of false news stories by the Post, with the intended impact of denying Donald Trump the White House, is an act of sedition against this nation. It means the Washington Post, far from functioning as part of the “free press” to keep government honest, has decided to use its remaining influence to overthrow the government through the use of strategic, falsified articles that are timed to sway Electoral voters to throw their votes away from Donald Trump.
You are right.
The WaPo fake news amounts to “banana republic crap, … that looks to negate the votes of some 62 million Americans.”
62 million Americans voted. Trump was elected. The election was not rigged. That’s all there is to it.
We all wanted to read Hillary’s private server and Clinton Foundation corruption emails too.
What is being attempted is a coup against Donald Trump.
WaPoo and Fake News
Janet Cooke “appeared on the Phil Donahue show in January 1982 and said that the high-pressure environment of the [Washington] Post had corrupted her judgment. She said that her sources had hinted to her about the existence of a boy such as Jimmy, but, unable to find him, she eventually created a story about him in order to satisfy her editors.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Cooke
Apparently the tradition lives on.
While watching ABC’s national news broadcast [the real fake news] this evening it was mentioned that 17 U.S. Intelligence Agencies had ‘sufficient evidence’ to show that Russia had a hand in hacking the most recent electoral farce – AND YET those same 17 intelligence agencies were totally in the dark when Dick Cheney and his neocon cabal orchestrated 9-11.
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!
I suspect there was a huge difference between what Cheney said and what these secret agencies said. Blab something different from the prevailing political overlords and you won’t have a job.
Elected officials have the final say of what’s publicly said.
I hope that comforts you in the coming years.
It scares the hell out of me.
Thanks, Milton … I have no idea what you were trying to convey. [clear as mud]
The attempted Clinton-CIA coup against Donald Trump
http://theduran.com/attempted-clinton-cia-coup-donald-trump/
“Putting all this aside, Donald Trump obviously did not win the election because of help from Russia, and the CIA’s report actually falls short of saying he did.
As I have discussed previously, Donald Trump won because Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate and because a great many Americans believe he will make their lives better.
The CIA statement however shows what Donald Trump is up against.
Already the Hillary Clinton Campaign has been actively lobbying electors on the Electoral College to switch support to Hillary Clinton from Donald Trump. Though this campaign is apparently meeting with little success, the CIA and the media are now assisting it, just as before the election the US intelligence community was trying to help Hillary Clinton win.
In both cases the method used is the same: the spreading of false stories and paranoia about Russia. The implication is that Donald Trump is in some way the agent of Russia, making any step to prevent him becoming President a patriotic duty.
I need hardly say that this is playing with fire. Never before in US history has there been an orchestrated campaign against an individual elected President in order to prevent him from being inaugurated. Never before has the US intelligence community involved itself in such a campaign.
Though I expect this attempt to fail, no-one should be in any doubt as to the huge anger of the tens of millions who voted for Donald Trump were it to succeed.
Though I expect this attempt to fail and Donald Trump to be inaugurated President on 20th January 2017, there is no doubt the campaign to destabilise him by painting him a Russian agent will continue after he is inaugurated.
Probably the only way he can stop it is if he publicly renounces his policy of rapprochement towards Russia, as some are already demanding.
Regardless of what eventually happens, it is both sinister and unprecedented for US intelligence to interfere in the US political process in this way.
As I said at the end of my 31st October 2016 article, the American Republican is living through dark times. Perhaps given that the political situation in Washington is starting to bear the hallmarks of what in other countries would be called a pre-coup environment, it is not so surprising if Donald Trump is choosing to surround himself with generals.”
Attempted coup against Trump.
Here is a Huffington Post item
“Russian Interference Could Give Courts Legal Authority To Install Clinton”
http://dailycaller.com/2016/12/10/peak-huffpo-courts-could-legally-install-clinton-as-president-because-of-russian-interference/
The irony is that the Clinton supporters are complaining about a secret intelligence agency using secret methods and secret data to effect the results of an election. If wonder if in four years, the CIA will demand to vet all candidates and throw out the ones they don’t like.
You said it.
One thing that’ll come out of the ‘the Russians stole the election’ meme is that it’ll almost replace (there’s the need to add the Trump supporters to get the full total) the ‘Iran has nuclear weapons ambitions’ meme as a way to get an accurate count of the number of Americans who don’t care what the facts are. Things like Birtherism, climate change Denialism etc inherently don’t show the full total because the fact rejecting partisans of one party have reasons other than the facts to not participate.
The CIA’s atrocities all over the world:http://www.globalresearch.ca/a-timeline-of-cia-atrocities/5348804
You can’t trust the CIA nor WAPO
The drama reaches a new level of intrigue.
https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/808104089028530176
The Obama administration wanted to reveal how corrupt Hillary Clinton was?
People seem all too ready to accept that the emails affected the election poorly for Clinton, but not ready to accept that if so, it was because they displayed clearly the Democrats’ shady behavior.
If Bolton was really opposed to Clinton, he would simply point out that if what the emails reveal harmed Clinton, it’s Clinton’s own fault for being corrupt, regardless of the hackers’ origin.
This, like most things from either “right” or “left,” is probably just establishment theater.
An alternate explanation is that Bolton is just stupid, I suppose, which also rings true. Perhaps both.
Popcorn, alone, will be inadequate. I’m going to need a full concession stand.
There are plenty of reasons this man is known as Bonkers Bolton, but this lunacy doesn’t really rise above or go beyond that of the “other side” in this intramural (H/T Barack) game.
It’s amazing to me that no one with a platform seems to be pointing out what both “sides” are more than willing to quickly gloss over – that if Clinton’s electoral chances were hampered by the “interference” of releasing the emails, it is because of the damning content of the emails.
Well, it’s clear why the Clintonians don’t want to acknowledge that obvious truth.
The Trumpsters, if they were of even dull-normal intelligence, should be shouting it from the rooftops. So maybe it’s the Carlin thing, again: “. . .half of them are stupider than that!”
Ha! Absolutely – the Republican establishment no doubt avoids this point because they serve the very same elite circle which includes the Clintons and other ruling-class Democrats, and the Deep State itself of course, but why Trump’s louder supporters with any media clout would ignore this can only be down to how daft they are. And, quite obviously, if Trump was really anti-establishment he’d point it out himself.
Trump certainly isn’t anti-establishment. But he definitely is a thin-skinned, vindictive moron who is very likely to want revenge on whomever he thinks is responsible, if he sees this Russian meme as an attempt to upset his election.
I suspect that the grownups among the Owners (the Deep State, if you will) really did prefer Killary, because she’s clearly more manageable. Drumpf is certainly an agent of the same Directors, but he has that distressing tendency to. . . flip the fuck out.
He’s probably not smart enough to realize that his wisest choice is to do as you suggest. Besides, his natural instinct is to respond by plotting vengeance.
With “””leadership”””” like this – Bolton, Trump, Clinton, … – we should cry until we laugh, and then cry some more.
Here, show this to one of these corrupt folks: https://imgflip.com/i/vhadi
Ha.
I am definitely laughing and crying. Trying to keep the laughing dominant cuz, if this isn’t the best black comedy ever, it has to be in the top ten.
Which is just another reason why “Pizzagate” (and other ludicrous anti-Clinton conspiracy theories) are so dangerous: they simply distract from the actual dmaning content of the leaked emails.
But crap that involves “Satanic sex” and “Boris the Russian” provide so much more effective clickbait.
Is pizzagate really that overblown, though? I mean if someone had said 20 years ago that there was a pedophile ring in the Catholic Church they’d have been laughed out of town or worse. Or a pedophile ring at the British Broadcasting Corporation with a beloved kids’ host being the worst offender. A massive network of “pool parties” in Hollywood. Or a Muslim grooming gang among “refugees” or whatever in a small hamlet in England, a village in Sweden… practically all over Europe at this point.
It may look like a game of guess the secret password among Internet recluses acting out a James Bond LARP fantasy, but the idea of a child molestation network operating at the highest echelons of government, corporations, NGOs, religious bodies, you name it — isn’t so far-fetched anymore based on well-established precedents. I mean think about it. Why would Spotlight win the coveted Best Picture Oscar… while An Open Secret can’t even find a proper distributor (and keeps getting DMCA’d off YouTube by “third-party complaints” from IP trolls nobody has ever heard of)?
If anything deserves its own movie, it’s pizzagate. Sorry, but I’m not going to automatically dismiss this as “ludicrous.” Knowing what we know about the CIA and the depraved nature of the Clintons in the first place, I don’t count anything out.
Mia – totally agree with you. And if you look at Alefantis’ instragram posts with children related creepiness touching upon pedophilia-themed allusions, there is certainly a need to investigate James Alefantis.
The alleged debunking theory is also a dead giveaway that something is sought to be covered up.
What is the alleged debunking. To paraphrase the Wapo, That an obvious loony Edgar Welch, drove from North Carolina to Washington to rescue sexually abused children he believed were hidden in mysterious tunnels beneath a neighborhood pizza joint. … He found no hidden children, no secret chambers, no evidence of a child sex ring run by the failed Democratic candidate for president of the United States, or by her campaign chief, or by the owner of the pizza place.”
Now pizzagate as it is being called broke in early November 2016. The incriminating evidence is Alefantis’ instagram posts and some alleged pedophilia themed code in Podesta emails.
Now obviously there are no sexually abused children hidden in secret tunnels under Alefantis’ pizzeria Jimmy Comet. Pizzagate and the evidence does not suggest that. So the loony obviously found nothing.
But this does not mean that Alefantis and Podesta might not be involved in a pedophilia ring or might not exhibit pedophiliac urges and may or may not act on them.
So nothing is debunked.
I have not read Podesta’s emails fully. And the pedophilia clues there might or might not be true.
But I have looked at Alefantis’ instagram posts and there do appear to be what could possibly be described as pedophilia themed allusions.
This is what needs to be investigated by the FBI/ Police and the rest can unravel from there.
This alleged debunking is a classic cover-up tactic. To cover up something, create a discourse of exaggerated and obviously false allegations, then get someone to investigate the exaggerations and declare them false, and then suggest that there was nothing there to begin with.
And in this case use a complete loony who has no credibility whatsoever. And use his crazy antics to suggest that there is nothing that the FBI needs to look into.
And the MSM and certain trolls here want us all to buy this.
And lets look at the alleged debunking as explained on the Wikipedia entry for pizzagate which is obviously written by the establishment in this context that would like this story to die.
According to wikipedia, “Pizzagate is a debunked[1] conspiracy theory”.
Under the sub-heading debunking, wikipedia states this:
” The conspiracy theory has been widely discredited and debunked by sources across the political spectrum.[2][6][33][39][original research?] It has been described as false by the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia, fact-checking website snopes.com and The New York Times, among others.[36][40][41][original research?] The police characterized the matter as a “fictitious conspiracy theory”.[2]”
Now look at all those references there. Not one quotes a named or even unnamed police officer as saying the matter was a fictitious conspiracy story.
Which Police has investigated Pizzagate and debunked it as Wikipedia wants us to believe? None.
All the references are to the loony’s alleged non-finding of abused children in underground tunnels in his own words.
One thing is clear – something is being covered up.
Too funny for words. Especially the response tweets, including from ‘unknown conservative’…
It is a bit hard to take someone with such an, um, overcompensating mustache seriously, but it’s looking like he’ll be Trump’s number 2 at State, so….
Maisie, I’ve also been pointing out the fact that the issues the Dem party are having with emails – whether they be Clinton’s or the DNC’s – wouldn’t exist if they hadn’t been nefarious enough to have done such things, testified to it in emails, then been ignorant/hubristic enough to have not protected them. This disaster was of their own making and no amount of finger-pointing at the folk who set that information free in the public domain, whatever their own underlying motives are/were, changes those underlying facts.
I have wondered if the reason for the Republicans’ reluctance to honk that horn stems from knowledge that they themselves have also been hacked. It would make a sort of sick sense when you take into account the unity both parties readily express when protecting against attacks on the perks both enjoy as ruling elite. After all, both parties would dearly love to see both Snowden and Assange swinging from lamp posts. :-s
Bolton is a warmongering A-hole of the first order. However, the idea of a false flag operation is intriguing. My suspicion falls upon the FBI. They have the means and the motive (Clinton hatred.)
Zerohedge now featuring Craig Murray’s article:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-11/former-uk-ambassador-blasts-cias-blatant-lies-shows-little-simple-logic-destroys-the
Foreign government intervenes in other nations’ domestic politics, Episode: South America,
If, indeed, it turns out to have been the Russian government behind the release of evidence that Democrats aren’t even sufficient to the task of protecting their own venality then, I think, it might behoove us to remind ourselves of that old aphorism,
What goes around, comes around.
Excellent story articulating common sense approach to the topic at hand.
I agree with the premise that there is no final conclusion or even consensus about what has happened but it’s definitely newsworthy and should be reported on. I also don’t see it as Mcarthyism at all as the questioned hack really did happen, no one denies that. What we need now is to examine what happened to the best of our ability. I think that is what is being argued for as the author doesn’t suggest Obama’s order to create a full report is wrong just the early leaking of CIA information.
Second the weight of evidence for Russian intelligence connections to Trump campaign is not conclusive but circumstantial evidence is piling up. Trumps own campaign manager, Paul Manafort really did work for pro-Russian forces in Ukraine and was paid millions in dark money. To believe he didn’t have ties to the Kremlin is somewhat hard to believe. There really was a server in Trump tower that only pinged a Russian bank. And there really was a hack and release of of emails on the democratic side while republican emails weren’t released when they had apparently been hacked too. If it was about transparency, release all emails and let the public decide. To reiterate, there’s no smoking gun but evidence is piling up and it definitely is newsworthy.
To this old IT professional it is obvious that the CIA is making it up.
Why would they do this, why would they show such hysteria? Did they think the Hillary would have given them the Cold to Hot war they want with Russia and that Trump will not?
Did Trump put the neocon warmonger lunatic Bolton under Tillerson to get the intelligence agencies off his back? Will Bolton be to Tillerson like Nuland was to Hillary? More suffering and death for millions?
The Dem’s have new blood in the pipe line but are afraid to parade them out, Muslim socialist like Congressman Even’s , communist crazies like Warren. The press hyped Sanders to make Hillary look centered, but it backed fired. The whole hype for Sanders was made up and pushed by the press.
an observation from outside the U$A:
we were unsure whether to laugh or cry at the results of the POTUS poll
… some of us laughed until we cried
… others cried until we laughed
… now that’s entertainment !
thank you U$A
You may end up laughing from the other side of your face. When it drizzles here…
Uh, we know…
“Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt.” – Pierre Trudeau
We weren’t sure a crack house or a meth lab would be our neighbour after Nov 8…the meth lab it is.
Yeah, now I almost feel bad for ragging on the guy’s kid with the whole Castrogate thing. Castro certainly wasn’t Gandhi, but Obama’s no Mandela and Hillary’s definitely no Mother Theresa either. Sunny Ways may not be as smooth as his old man, but at least he’s aware that the US has its own glass house full of bloody shards to clean before they start throwing stones at the folks next door. Both in Ottawa and 90 miles from Miami.
Truth Matters!
Never again will I vote for someone for the sole reason that they are a “Democrat”.
likewise
here we go
RUSSIA DID IT?
How does mista obama explain this please….
Aleppo militants safe passage deal with US unreal
[US] proposed a deal that would also mandate members of the terrorist group formerly known as al-Nusra Front to head towards the Syrian northwestern province of Idlib, but militants from other groups could go to other regions, including the Turkish border.
WTF? The US wants to give terrorists their own base to operate from.
EXCUSE ME?
http://presstv.com/Detail/2016/12/11/497467/russia-us-syria-aleppo-denies
Is this a victoria nuland deal? a john kerry deal? i mean alNusra (alQueda subsidiary) and the US wants now to finance terrorists, and what, blame that on Russia too?
US dumb&dumbers still in action and running the country into the ground.
Un-be-lie-v-able
This is just another indication to me that the Democratic Party is dying and they can’t even for one second reflect on their loss with meaningful thought. They have to go back to being the party of the people or this is it.
Control freaks, who want their Big Government (and its police state) funded at the muzzle of state firepower; who want ACA imposed on people who don’t want it: who want gun control; who want Houston sermons subpoenaed, like Annice Parker did; who want Chick-fil-A and Hobby Lobby banned from their precincts, like Menino, like Emanuel, like Cuomo did;…call liberty lovers–wait for it–“authoritarians.”
And yet you claim someone else is “crapflooding” this board…
You think Dick Cheney and John Bolton are leftists, right? Can you see what I mean about wires crossed? See my debunking of your Mussolini nonsense below (yes, he was a socialist, and then he became what he considered the “opposite” – a fascist).
You just offered a quote attributed to Mussolini: “Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State…”
That’s communism.
The left’s objects of adoration always somehow “change” if the left gets sufficient opprobrium from a dispirited public, correct Maisie? Straight out of the same playbook, chapter and verse, used to call Obama a rightie once his progressive true believers saw the wider public’s disapproval of him.
You are now wasting my time. Anyone who reads our interactions can see you are flailing now, and grasping at straws. I have proved my point, and although I didn’t actually expect you to accept the truth you must at least now be dimly aware of the absurdity of your stubborn position.
You (pretend to) believe all totalitarianism (“a political system in which the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible”), whether right or left, is always left-wing! You’re actually a childlike innocent, in a way, only viciously stubborn.
Note again what Mussolini said:
This is an argument against socialism, even against democracy.
Total nonsense. It became quite clear early on to many on the Left that Obama didn’t live up to his (perceived, advertised) progressive credentials. The general public didn’t seem to care about that though: he’s a two term president with a comfortable second election victory.
To rank and file Republican voters, Obama remains a paragon of progressiveness and that’s one of the reasons they voted for the ‘Emperor G-d’.
Get real, the U S is a big country and needs big government– that is the shoe size.
Donot want big gov– then go live in Mex and see what it is like.
What kind of a person are you when you do not want a basic healthcare for your fellow citizens?
I boycott chik and hobby– donot need those people believing in a demended god ruling me.
Yea, we pay the taxes they donot want to pay– that is what it is about.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-08/georgia-accuses-homeland-security-attempting-hack-states-election-database?
Someone forwarded this article.
And what do the Russians have on you?
WaPo: Donald Trump is going to get somebody killed
Do read the entire thing. Preposterous conspiracy theories and ranting unmoored from rationality are frequently not benign, and are often not so in the instances of Trump supporters. Ideas do, indeed, have consequences; believe witches are real and that they hexing members of the community, and we see murders of women and men as witches.
They mean Trump will get a real human being killed, unlike the anonymous non-persons Obama regularly kills.
Where I am it’s behind a paywall.
Oh sweet irony! In the very article where Glenn Greenwald eviscerates the Washington Post for being a tool of propaganda for the deep state, Mona chooses to quote then as a credible source when their express views align with her own bias.
FUCKING PRECIOUS!!!
Pizzagate notwithstanding.. it’s only a matter of time till Der Smartest Man on the Planet gets someone killed directly from his twitter dementia. On that day, when the FBI is forced to arrest him, after praying for the victim, I’ll be ROTFIGSL at his dumbass supporters.
While I agree that it is far too early to make any official claim about foreign interference (direct or not), I’m wondering how else they are supposed to respect the anonymity of sources? Seems like discrediting all anonymous officials – either on the basis of their anonymity or because others at their agency have lied before – is a great way to discredit some real leaks.
Glenn, I agree with you in the abstract, but this argument to patiently await the facts is a move that was best made several turns ago. We are well past the point of conjecture. Several lawmakers from both parties, including Trump supporters like Nunes, have made reference to their intelligence briefings in stating that the patterns of the hacks are highly consistent with Russian spycraft. Putin has already done this in the Ukraine and other Western democracies in an attempt to induce acquiescent stances on Russian expansionism. The timing – and the fact that only DNC leaks came forth starting with the convention – is equally suspect….”striking,” you might say, as you did say with respect to Marcy Wheeler’s argument. It is also unconvincing to try and impeach senior intelligence officials for bias against Putin on the basis that they previously spoke against him – leaving alone that perhaps those statements were made on the basis of verifiable data and experience. So while it’s not a smoking gun, it damn sure looks like a bullet hole. It merits a follow-up.
Evidence aside, let’s talk about your pathos-driven ad hominems. It is becoming more abundantly clear that your experience with Edward Snowden has fostered a knee-jerk anti-CIA position wherever possible. The CIA does have a sordid history, and yes, spy agencies lie. But that does not invalidate the entire agency for all time. The Iraq WMD reference is a poor dodge. It is a matter of public record that the CIA reported to Scooter Libby that there was no evidence that Hussein purchased yellowcake uranium from Niger; the VP’s office cherry-picked the data and fed it to the White House. This was confirmed by Joe Wilson and later his wife, Valerie Plame, and virtually the entire intelligence field. I suppose because she wasn’t your whistleblower, and your byline didn’t get any play, that you choose not to believe her?
As for Neo-McCarthyism on the part of Democrats, you can put that away. McCarthyism was an active effort to ruin lives based on constantly shifting “evidence” the Senator couldn’t support (c.f., Trump’s gross distortions based on rumor and hearsay magic). There is evidence to support the narrative, and you’re hitting low-hanging fruit im the form of Adam Schiff. I have also yet to meet any Democrat who refers to anyone who opposed Hillary as a Russian stooge. That is a sexy straw man, but don’t be tempted by its curves.
What is truly “disgusting” is the idea that this piece will be taken as a cutting edge example of independent journalism…when what it really is is a fact-free, mud-throwing axe-grind by someone who long ago forgot the distinction between healthy skepticism and reactionary cynicism. The latter is, to me, no different than sycophantic gullability.
By using the term “Russian expansionism” you show that you are either clueless or a lying propagandist. It is in fact NATO and the U.S. that are expanding toward Russia, and Russia is basically trying to defend itself. NATO and the U.S. broke their promise to to not expand almost as soon as they made them. I’m not saying that Russia and Putin are good guys, but it’s not them that’s expanding.
Omg, that shit for brains Schiff thinks RT stands for “Russian Television”. If he can’t even get that very basic fact straight, why would anyone believe him on anything Russia-related?
The corporate, hard progressive left New York Times’s (and CNN’s, and NY Daily News’s) A1 relentless promotions of immigration control; and gun control, and Climate Change; and trans; and ACA; and TPP; and yellow cake uranium excuses to erase yet another border is, according to a humiliated progressive left, is, um, not really representative of progressives.
It’s representative of opportunist, cynical corporatism, just as Donald Trump is in his deceitful way.
Progressives, libertarians and paleoconservatives could unite against corporatism (crony capitalism), militarism and imperialism, as their commonality is opposition to these things, but not while people like you don’t understand the English language well enough to communicate effectively – instead butchering it to suit your own purposes and supporting Trump’s totalitarianism as if it’s different in anything but degree from Obama’s entrenching of corruption.
You’d be respected more if you just admitted it.
I don’t want your respect. You probably think it means “grapefruit,” and I don’t like grapefruit.
I somehow doubt if she craves your respect.
The raised-fist, urban camo attired, slogan chanting, MIA-listening, Hillary “We came, we saw, he died” Clinton-voting, Big Government police state taxing progressive left schools its audience against “militarism.”
Militancy is not institutionalized militarism, and it is clumsy to conflate them.
Authoritarianism and totalitarianism (police state etc.) can be found in both Communist (left wing) and Fascist (right wing) regimes.
Progressives have nothing in common with Hillary Clinton. She’s a corporatist, like Trump.
> “…and Fascist (right wing) regimes.”
Sorry you have to read this here, Maisie, but history’s most notorious fascist edited Italy’s premier mid-century Socialist newspaper, Avanti! (“Forward!”).
I know you have your wires crossed, and that you can not see the right wing as ever wrong – which is why you have to claim ludicrously that everyone not a paleoconservative is a left-winger (presumably Dick Cheney is a leftist, and John Bolton) – and I know you won’t listen to reason nor read the dictionary for accurate word definitions – but, for God’s sake, all you’re doing doubling-down this nonsense is proving you don’t actually live on the same planet as the rest of us, casting yourself as a fever-dreaming, isolated voice spitting out reactionary defensiveness like a cornered animal no one should approach.
“Fascism: an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.”
(Oxford Dictionary)
Any embarrassed leftist can edit a dictionary, and have.
What you can’t refute is that history’s most notorious “fascist”–as defined themselves in hindsight by an always contradictory left–also edited Italy’s premier Socialist newspaper of his day. Fact.
The leftists have edited the dictionary!
Neither Mussolini nor Hitler initiated “a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole” – which is the definition of socialism.
But wait, perhaps those pesky leftists have changed that definition, too!
Well, let’s look at Mussolini, the fascist:
Benito Mussolini: What is Fascism, 1932
But hey, maybe the leftists went into the archives and altered Mussolini’s own words just for me!
> “‘Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State…'”
Gosh, sounds like communism to me.
No, that’s fascism. Communism is “a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.” (Oxford Dictionary) Not the merger of state and corporate power which Hitler and Mussolini engaged in, although just as totalitarian.
Now read Mussolini’s words again, trying to keep your blind spots out of the way. It’s not socialism, and he was clear to differentiate his system from socialism – as he says.
Communism is an economic model whereby all property is owned by the state.
Fascism is political model whereby you have a dictator curtailing individual rights or reserving all rights for themselves. It’s a political model, not an economic model.
Note that everything beginning with “Fascism is the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism” is Mussolini’s writing. He sure as hell didn’t see himself as a socialist in 1932.
Yeah, he must’ve changed. Like chastened progs now insist Obama changed. You know, coincidentally after their leaders fell out of favor with a public waking to the dark underbelly of progressive leftism.
He only said, “Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State…”
He said that because that’s what fascists believe.
He said, and I’ll stress what you choose to ignore:
Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society….
After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society
Yet both insist on the primacy of the state–according to the same Mussolini who edited Italy’s premier Socialist newspaper of his day.
Dude, I think we’re done here. I showed you by his own words that Mussolini was no socialist after he initiated what he called fascism, and really that was the point I was making in response to your claim (that he was still a socialist). You don’t have to be pissy about it.
But continue to talk to yourself if you want to. After all, you’re the only one who speaks your language.
Brilliant. You’ve discovered fascism was statist. Since communism (as understood today) is also statist, it must be the same thing, according to you. Given that communism comes from the left, it follows that fascism is also leftist. Brilliant train of thought :)
The reality is that Hitler and Mussolini hated leftists, a lot like you, and for the same reasons.
Progressives are statists. Thank you for admitting that, Jose.
Now admit that leftists have always hated other leftists. Pol Pot hated Vietnam, China hated the USSR, MPLA hated UNITA, Shing Path hated MRTA, Deng Xiaoping hated Jiang Qing…. Progressive leftists are notorious for internecine rivalries.
so are regressive rightists like hitler. rightists have always hated leftists, notoriously so. hitler went after the socialists first. i think i remember you from the guardian, under another name, you have bizarre definitions of political terms, which you expect every one else to agree with and adhere too. not happening, humpty dumpty.
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
pretzelattack, your predecessors used the same playbook, chapter and verse, as they later used with the public on a progressive Obama that the public also came to dislike–as they did earlier in trying to redefine the founder of the National (as in NPR) Socialist Workers Party in new terms convenient for a progressive left with egg on their faces after Nuremberg.
Hitler’s profound disagreement with Goebbels (and the latter’s subsequent falling in line with Hitler’s fascism) also springs to mind here:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/quiet.htm
Very appropriate, indeed.
Um, Maisie? Mussolini never referred to himself or to fascism as right wing. That was the later-embarrassed progressive left’s doing.
That’s what this thread branch is about, remember?
Even after being battered by the truth, you return (like a dog to its own vomit) to claiming he was a socialist! Benito Mussolini, as I’ve demonstrated for you, distinguished his fascism by scorning socialism – so unless you wish to claim he was a moderate (which would be hilarious, but you’ve already claimed he was socialist so you couldn’t), that would make him right wing. Of course the dictionary also defines fascism as right wing, but you have already cavalierly dismissed that as the work of “embarrassed leftists” editing the dictionary, so we’re going to have to go back to Mussolini himself:
I have already pointed out that totalitarianism certainly exists on the left and the right, and that progressives are distinguished on the left as not supporting totalitarianism or authoritarianism, just as the libertarians and (ahem, TRUE) paleoconservatives resist it on the right – but fascist totalitarianism exists only on the right wing.
Now if you want to define all those blockquoted statements above, and the others already given earlier, as coming from a socialist (which you have claimed, obviously in error), you are going to have to admit you are using a different vocabulary from the rest of the educated world.
As such, you should probably talk from now on just to yourself, as only you speak your unique and ill-informed language.
“like a dog to its own vomit”
So unnecessary … tsk tsk tsk
101: “The definition of fascism is The marriage of corporation and state.” or its variants, has actually never been attributed to anyone, let alone Mussolini.
You might also attempt to answer why Mussolini raises the state to primacy regardless of how he disavows its correlation with other leftist ideals. He was, after all, the editor of the largest Socialist newspaper of his day on record.
Ues, CrookdClintonsObama are Trio of even better corporatists than Trump– they are potus.
> “…to communicate effectively….”
Imitation and all:
https://theintercept.com/2016/12/08/donald-trumps-labor-secretary-pick-wants-more-cheap-immigrants-in-american-jobs/?comments=1#comment-320543
Please read:
The CIA’s Absence of Conviction (article by former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray)
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/12/cias-absence-conviction/
And another thing: I absolutely can’t stand hypocritical crap like this about other countries. The U.S. is the primary cyber attacker on the planet, yet they push propaganda against Russia and China for doing the same thing that the U.S. does far more effectively and far more often. I hate religion, but I totally agree with Jesus: look in the fucking mirror before complaining about other countries.
I sent this email to Glenn at 3:41, eight minutes before he posted this article
“Secret CIA assessment says Russia was trying to help Trump win White House” says WAPO.
Me: So instead of hackers reporting the truth through wiki-leaks, as Woodward and Bernstein exposed Watergate circa 1972–73, and got Nixon to resign and have Ford pardon him, now it’s attack the messengers who doing all these terrible things and therefore and somehow not reporting the truth–even though we have to admit it is true. Clinton probably should go to jail.
““It is the assessment of the intelligence community that Russia’s goal here was to favor one candidate over the other, to help Trump get elected,” said a senior U.S. official briefed on an intelligence presentation made to U.S. senators. “That’s the consensus view.”?”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-orders-review-of-russian-hacking-during-presidential-campaign/2016/12/09/31d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html
My jaw is on the floor.
This McCarthyism is nothing but the Democratic establishment trying to hold onto power. Instead of accepting more progressive policies and platforms, the party elite are obsessed on blaming others for their party’s decline and continuing to be just another corporate party.
Since Bill Clinton, the U.S. now has two Republican parties: one virtually a Nazi party, the other what used to be mainstream Republicans.
When someone commits a crime,a good motive is usually required, what motive did Putin have to prefer Trump? Here are two [but not real motives at all]. “When people call you brilliant, it’s always good, especially when the person heads up Russia,” he told MSNBC.
Vladimir Putin defends Donald Trump by saying the Presidential nominee behaves ‘extravagantly’ because he is like ‘ordinary Americans'[Daily Mail]
However Clinton wanted to confront Russia and make them pay a price etc etc. Trump wanted to be friends with Russia and together defeat Islamic State, he may also recognize Crimea as part of Russia. No contest really, a possible peaceful world via Trump or we could all be glowing in the dark via Clinton.
An increasingly disapproving electorate saw that Obama is progressive. Eight years of vol-…er, “folks;” and medical advances; and smashing down borders; and population control; and solar symbols; and Thule and Black Sun philosophy…. Wow, were they ever wrong.
Obama is really a rightie. Just like their embarrassed, chastened precedents corrected the record about their National (as in NPR) Socialist Workers Party after the exposure of Nuremberg. I mean, who shows up with craft beer in hand on the doorstoop that the coffeehouse flier said was for a National (as in NARAL) Socialist Workers Party?
Again you let Obama off too easy saying his reaction to all the anti-Russia hysteria has been muted. His calling for an investigation is deceitful because he knows full well there’s nothing to investigate. Nothing will come of this investigation because he’s a lame duck president and nothing he does means anything so he has nothing to lose by doing this but helps the Clinton machine further its aim of delegitimizing the election. This is all a big sideshow because the establishment is mad that its candidate Hillary lost. Michael Morrell is crying that he won’t get to run the CIA after endorsing Hillary, thus ensuring himself that post or some other high-level one. Michael Hayden wrote a column in the Post right after the election in which he told Trump that the intelligence community is his best friend. What an about-face! These hypocrites have no shame and Trump is right to shun the useless intelligence briefings by these smug bureaucrats with their endless war agenda.
Facebook is progressive. FB repeats progressive ideas, and, like Twitter, censors effective, influential anti-establishment (i.e., anti-progressive) views.
Zuckerberg is also a former Bilderberg invitee and attendee. The word circulating in NYC a few years ago is that he was also a bit freaked out by the experience afterward.
Yes, yes, and as you have insisted, Adolph Hitler was a progressive. And the Illuminati are controlling our minds through their bloodlines & blah, blah.
Your accounts have been banned here repeatedly. Because you crapflood with all this bullshit. Yet, like the Weeble Wobble, you keep bouncing back.
-Mona-, if you took time to comprehend; the post referred to the progressive establishment …
but your label-maker is out and whirling.
If only -Mona- would be banned for her constant attacks and disruptive behavior.
You’re wrong. You couldn’t be more wrong. That insane shit that Mona claimed “communete” has posted previously has been here and at previous Greenwald sites going by name after name after name. He always has repeatedly and relentlessly posted precisely what Mona stated that he has posted.
“That insane shit that Mona claimed “communete” has posted previously has been here ”
He didn’t post it today. He posted some snark equating progressives and the establishment.
-Mona- cannot not launch into personal attacks that end with ‘people need not respond to person X’.
like her “95% of the time” bullshit as she continually feeds CS.
She’s the most disruptive commenter here; has been since her days of Ommo/Ondy …
she’s running multiple puppets responding to herself, again. I call it crapflooding.
But… but… ‘Bloodlines of the Illuminati’ is a seminal piece of work!
Only -Mona- would know how to back up her attack by sock-puppetting that gem.
@nut said –
Put a sock in it, nut. Apart from Resident Loon II (“Karl”) you’re not convincing anyone here.
I can understand your abiding frustration with those who express genuine and/or unique opinions Gert… it must be torture to think about living in a world without your strings to govern your every thought and action. But you can take solace in the fact that your puppet master is as every bit as vulgar and disingenuous as yourself.
P.s I resent the fact that I am not labeled “resident Loon 1.” What does a sincere human being have to do to warrant first place in your tangled web? Maybe another puppet opinion is in order for the sake of creating the illusion that you criticisms actually have merit. You can debate whether, or not, I warrant the degree of attention in absentia that I am currently COMMANDING from Glenn Greenwald’s “most loyal fan” and former business partner (;
P.s. Thank you for getting the name right (Karl with a “K”) – Tata then, sweet cheeks…
As a parting gesture of pity for the perpetually pathetic, here is a little toon from a white, heterosexual male that I believe you can actually appreciate when you think of me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1AHec7sfZ8
Did you appreciate that toon by ol’ Blue Eyes?
“Don’t you know little fool you never can win
Use your mentality… Wake up to reality”
You have in the recent past expressed that typical “concern” of so many faux “dissidents”: that you’re being ‘silenced’ or ‘browbeaten’, while of course being TOTALLY FREE to express your rancid weltanshauung loudly, here or anywhere else. Just don’t expect respect or agreement from many here. You’re no more a dissident than anyone else who expresses an opinion at TI.
To earn the title Resident Loon I, you’d have to beat Communete’s level of craziness. For now you’ll have to settle for well-deserved runner-up, in close contention with ‘nut said’.
Your UToob will go unwatched by me.
Toodeloo.
Wow, a 112 word retort in just eight minutes! You must be sitting on the edge of you seat just hoping that I would take notice of your flirtatious barbs…
As “weltanshauung” is defined as “a comprehensive conception of the world,” I am a little taken aback by your flattery. It was the Sinatra piece that did it, am I right? C’mon, admit it, you snuck a little listen, did you not? I mean, who can resist ol’ Blue Eyes, am I right?
Tooraloo (***Blush***) Mona
“Too-ra-loo-ra-loo-ral,
Hush now don’t you cry!”
Andsince I caught you in such a playful mood, here is classic ditty from another white, heterosexual American of Anglo-Saxon descent (they didn’t all carry disease)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw9B49epS_M
(I know that you can’t resist)
“Apart from Resident Loon II (“Karl”) you’re not convincing anyone here.”
-Mona- is the only resident to routinely refer to others as loons.
That you must announce I’m failing to convince anyone of your half dozen puppets speaks volume.
A half dozen? That is a gross underestimation. She and her troupe have been attempting to control both sides of the conversation for years in Glenn Greenwald’s arena. It is not enough to stack the deck in your favor by having your puppets echo your views. Creating and controlling Greenwald’s perceived opposition gives her almost complete control of the ensuing narrative on every thread. Take a careful look at those whose tactics closely align with hers and you will begin to see a discernible pattern that has been repeated with ever greater levels of sophistication over the years. You know exactly what I mean, don’t you nuf?
It was this very behavior that made me first question Glenn Greenwald’s personal integrity and the “progressive” agenda he purportedly champions. We are ultimately judged as much by our methods as we are by our intended aims.
-> “…crapflood….” – -Mona-
To paraphrase Glenn Greenwald:
“Those who most loudly denounce [crapflood] are typically those most aggressively disseminating it.”
Difference being, Glenn does not believe I crapflood. By contrast, he’s banned your accounts several times– for endless spewing of unhinged bullshit about Hitler, mind control plots, the Illuminati, the Bilderburgers & etc. Shockingly, the material I post is not, um, along those lines.
Glenn may not be aware of the oppressive volume of banter and egging and baiting and responding and hero worship and other posting you immaturely hijack each and every one of his threads with. He only knows you as a former law partner. You stand out among regulars for your abject saturation of the comments forum.
Glenn pays attention to his comments section. Reasonable people have frequently thanked me for the many articles I provide and link to. You…not so much. No one has thanked you for your links to Fritz Springier or, e.g., that deranged, antisemitic “Russian monk,” Brother Nathanael. Rather, several — and I do not mean me — have implored him to ban you.
What Glenn sees when he responds to my posts is you diving in between the conversations as fast as you can to squeal, “Glenn, that’s the one!….”
All Glenn has to do is one db count on your user name to see how you’ve gummed up his site.
You seem confused, but you’re not. This is just a pathetic attempt to start a narrative that has no internal consistency. You’re trying to associate anti-establishment progressives with the establishment they oppose. Good luck with that.
If you futilely counter that corporate hyper-state is not progressive, you need only remember how Comcast-owned networks like CNBC inveighed rabidly against North Carolina’s bathroom bill.
Progressives heart Corporate Media
It’s not rocket science. The establishment pays lip service to popular low-risk socially progressive causes. At the moment, LGBT rights are quite popular, so they are useful. Indeed, they are often used to beat on adversaries of the American empire that are behind on LGBT rights. In a different era, the establishment wouldn’t have cared about LGBT issues. This is easily illustrated by Clinton’s “evolution” on the issue. It’s opportunism, plain and simple.
True progressives stand for stuff that isn’t particularly popular at a given time, such as being for gay rights in the 80s, or against the invasion of Iraq in 2003, or against extra-judicial executions today.
+1
Trump’s longtime lawyer was gay. But you’ve missed the boat, gendered terms are passe now. Trans is A1, every day, on corporate progressive-leftist NYT.
It’s your progressive-leftist promotion of Big Government that gives you police state (and its extra-judicial executioners you decry). You knowingly demand, and demand funding of, what is reciprocated to you as police state and surveillance state.
Are progressives backtracking on their wish to invade Syria? (Too late for Libya.) Progressives’ cohort across the aisle, the neos (as in new, improved, with-it, lefty anodyne, Rockefeller Republican), helped the progressive left into Iraq. Border-transgressive nation builders that you are.
Thinking everyone except paleoconservatives is from “the left” is fucking ridiculous.
Get it through your head that the establishment is devoted to corporatism, militarism and imperialism.
(These are not leftist, and your preferred definition of words is not going to change the dictionary.)
True libertarians and paleoconservatives do indeed often oppose these things, but they do not support Trump and his agenda – which is evidently crony capitalist, militarist and certainly evidences no sign yet of anti-imperialism.
Your supporting Trump proves you are not a paleoconservative at all. Which means. according to you, that you’re a progressive.
As progressive as Adolf Hitler. And sharing a penchant for conspiracy theories with affinity for the Occult…
Or Obama’s. Neither actually lifted a finger to further that cause but did take credit for its successes.
The phrase traditional progressive is an oxymoron.
So as not be lost in the thread:
1. Craig Murray reports that Facebook’s apparent blocking of sharing his post has ceased.
2. Srsly, peeps, what the fuck are you all doing on Facebook?!?!?!? It’s not as if it’s difficult to build non-commercial alternatives?
Or is that that you just have to go where everyone else is? Remember what your mother asked you: If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump, too?
My mother never asked me that question. When my friends jumped off a cliff, I did too. Luckily, my mom had packed a parachute in advance.
No wonder you ended up with so few (living) friends. ;^)
Fortunately, Facebook came along and I made a lot of new ones.
“Zuckerberg loves me, this I know.
The Terms of Service tell me so.”
«LIKE»
Galactus-8675309
Huh..??
Doug’s jib was so feeble, Jaye P. Morgan would have ‘Gong`d’ his sorry arse right of of the stage..
next
Sorry, call back later. Jenny ain’t here.
FB has a parachute App for that, benitoe.
*you have new 1 notification:
“There is not just smoke here. There is a blazing 10-alarm fire, the sirens are wailing, the Russians provided the lighter fluid, and Trump is standing half-burnt and holding a match,” said Glenn Carle, a retired CIA officer and interrogator.
The CIA’s “Russia did it” narrative is in continuity with the ruling class ideology that hundreds of millions of Americans have been ingesting for years and years. The actual perpetrators and enemies of the American people are being obscured and instead a convenient scapegoat is being brought before us. The ruling class arrogantly expects that the public is so stupid that the ruling class’ accusations about Russian interference will unleash the public’s fury.
In 2016, civilians in this country should be examining the stories we have been led to believe about ourselves and about “America”. We need radical history, heterodoxy, like the work of Howard Zinn. Stories matter. Disobedience matters. Righteous anger matters. Civilians’ expression of doubt and skepticism toward Official Explanations is crucial to our self-defense and self-emancipation. It’s vital to loosening the psychological hold that the ruling class has on us.
Instead, what we see is the deliberate output and dissemination of lies from institutions such as the CIA which serve to advance the ruling class agenda. We hear the uncritical rehashing and regurgitation of official talking points.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/12/11/trump-claims-russian-interference-in-2016-race-ridiculous-dems-making-excuses.html
I’m mad now!
Damn ruling class!
Who do they think they are? Where do they meet to discuss who to scapegoat this week? I thought I was supposed to hate Mexicans and then they go and change it Muslims. I looked for a mosque or temple or whatever they call it. I wanted to give them a piece of my mind. Imagine that, not being Christian.
But no. The damn ruling class decided that now it’s Russia!
I mean GEESH! How does anyone keep it straight when there is so much to be furious about. It’s a good thing we have Trump to remind us of our persecution by the … which was it? Latinos? Oh wait … I know … it’s that crooked Hillary Clinton.
How do you know who the bad guys … oh wait … the CIA?
So the CIA is run by the ruling class. They got together with that Comey fellow to sink crooked Hillary and her Muslim sidekick Obummer. But doesn’t that make them the good guys?
Whew!
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight now. The good guys are Donald Trump, Rex Tillerson, Benjamin Netanyahu, Roger Stone, Mitch McConnell, Vladmir Putin and Betsy DeVos, Palmer Lucky, Robert Mercer, and Breitbart News.
The bad guys are Hillary Clinton, John Podesta, the EU, CNN, the Washington Post, the Clinton Foundation, all Hollywood celebrities (except Scott Baio and Clint Eastwood), the New York Times, liberals, feminazis who who voted for Hillary, McCarthyites, African Americans, the Bundys … wait … are the Bundys good guys or bad guys they’re rich but not like Vladmir Putin rich so whose side are they on?
This is just so confusing! Are you a good guy or bad guy? What about Mr. Greenwald? OMG! What about me? I voted for Clinton but I’m not a feminazi. I know that. Am I a bad guy too? Do I have to hate myself too?
Would you please identify those who are in the ruling class so we know who to hate?
I just don’t know who’s to blame any more.
But dammit! Someone is to blame.
Otherwise we will be filled with anger and have no one to hate! Nobody wants that, right?
As usual, the left blew it.
As usual, the right put party power over country and democracy.
And Glenn, we’ve all been had one way or another this year, you too. As someone who has followed you from your time at Salon, I sincerely hope you can find a way to stop your metamorphosis from useful tool to useless fool, but this defensive and desperate article doesn’t help your cause at all; admitting that you, the Intercept and Wikileaks may have been used to electioneer against HRC would be a good start.
For the record, I’m no smug Clintonista, I wrote in Bernie.
Glenn, you forgot reason #6:
6) The Washington Post is owned by Jeff Bezos, whose Amazon Web Services receives a substantial portion of its funding from the CIA. By serving as an outlet for CIA propaganda, Bezos enhances the competitive position of Amazon in pursuit of billions of dollars annually in CIA procurements.
As for the democrats, it speaks volumes about them that they focus on the ostensible source of the leaks, rather than on the content of the leaks themselves. It is clear that they truly do not see anything wrong with what they did, only that it cost them votes. They are not repentant; they are not introspective; they will not reform. Kindly remember these things in 2018 when Congress and much of the Senate is up for reelection.
My common senses tell me that Netanyahu, NATO & MIC are behind this “russia-did-it” garbage.
they cried wolf with wmd and screwed up the planet and now they want more blood, more money and ???
Netanyahoo is going to be on 60 Minutes tonight. Great timing.
I’m sure he has intelligence officials that really know what the CIA only thinks happened.
CBS is digging deep under the outhouse.
Umm… you obviously don’t know how white-hat and black-hat hacking works. Your argument is kind of misreading the WAPO article.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-10/cia-moves-invalidate-us-presidential-elections-blaming-russian-hacking
“…After careful analysis of all the media punditry and the ‘leaks’ coming out from the CIA, I can only conclude that there is a concerted effort taking place to invalidate the U.S. elections, in an effort to unseat Donald Trump.
Last night the Washington Post reported a leak from inside the CIA, saying they had a report that showed evidence that Russia hacked the elections in order to elect Donald Trump. They’re being very specific about that point. Pay attention.
Source: Reuters
The CIA has concluded that Russia intervened in the 2016 election to help President-elect Donald Trump win the White House, and not just to undermine confidence in the U.S. electoral system, the Washington Post reported on Friday.
The front page at Reuters today is worth a look. How would the world (Latin American, African, The Asian Subcontinent or nthe Middle East react to a recognizable CIA White House coup. http://www.reuters.com/
Citing U.S. officials briefed on the matter, the Post said intelligence agencies had identified individuals with connections to the Russian government who provided thousands of hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and others, including the chairman of Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, to WikiLeaks.
The officials described the individuals as people known to the intelligence community who were part of a wider Russian operation to boost Trump and reduce Clinton’s chances of winning the election.
“It is the assessment of the intelligence community that Russia’s goal here was to favor one candidate over the other, to help Trump get elected,” the Post quoted a senior U.S. official as saying. “That’s the consensus view.”
The Post said the official had been briefed on an intelligence presentation made by the Central Intelligence Agency to key U.S. senators behind closed-doors last week.
The CIA, in what the Post said was a secret assessment, cited a growing body of evidence from multiple sources. Briefers told the senators it was now “quite clear” that electing Trump was Russia’s goal, the Post quoted officials as saying on condition of anonymity.
In October, the U.S. government formally accused Russia of a campaign of cyber attacks against Democratic Party organizations ahead of the Nov. 8 presidential election.
President Barack Obama has said he warned Russian President Vladimir Putin about consequences for the attacks. But Russian officials have denied all accusations of interference in the U.S. election.
A CIA spokeswoman said the agency had no comment on the report…”
I was puzzled by Democrats latching onto irrational McCarthyite Red Scaring until I realized that disbelief and irrational action is one of the stages of grief. I’m picturing someone slapping a dead guy and yelling at him to wake up.
The Dems need to get over their grief and disbelief, pick up the pieces, and take action after asking why so many no longer trust them. They also need to work on substantive things, like reversing the horrible Gerrymandering that has allowed the GOP to own the House. They’ve done little about such things in their quest for corporate loot.
Glenn,
I have a question for you. Do you believe motives actually matter? You seem to contradict yourself, In an article you wrote on October 13 about the relevance of the John Podesta emails and reporting on them, your very first point was that motives shouldn’t matter yet in this article you are stating that we need to question the motives of CIA or other intelligence officials leaking info to the Washington Post and the New York Times. You were actually one of the journalists that broke the story about Edward Snowden, an intelligence analyst who leaked classified intelligence documents to you. Did his motives matter? Or, is it more important to you how much those leaks negatively effect the public officials whose partisan views you seem to disagree with or positively effect the public officials who you do agree with. Do motives matter? Because I do seriously question yours.
Facebook appears to have attempted to block sharing of Craig Murray’s post refuting Russian hacking of the DNC:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/12/facebook-suppresses-truth/comment-page-1/#comment-642199
Murray presents the evidence for this in the above article. He also lays out how to get around this sort of suppression:
Apparently, what they can’t achieve by insinuation in the major media, they are more than willing to bulwark by suppressing those who seek actual facts and the truth.
Facebook leadership: progressive or paleoconservative?
Establishment, you dolt; even liberal if you want. There’s nothing “progressive” about Facebook, as if their collaboration with the NSA weren’t enough to establish that.
Jose, Facebook collaborates with hyper-state (which is a progressive construct) and with the globalists who push hyper-state as a means to curtail liberties inherent in natural law rights. Those restrictions are progressive ones.
If you doubt that corporate hyper-state is progressive, you need only remember how Comcast-owned networks like CNBC inveighed against North Carolina’s bathroom bill.
Yes, Mr Illuminati, that explains why one of its main intruments, the CIA, tried (often with success) to finish off countless progressive movements in Latin America and elsewhere. Stands to reason…
If what Craig says is true, that insider could do the world a solid by stepping forward.
true but imagine that person had a spouse and children to raise.
and then there is the “kill or discredit the messenger” distraction.
perhaps you might volunteer to be his atty?
“there is the “kill or discredit the messenger””
Odd that you would have to remind Mona of that one.
i dont know mona and certainly dont mean her any ill
my point was “distraction” as to create another issue in the mix so as to convolute the entire who-did-it scenario as will play out when the president decides the murder of Seth Rich is worth looking into.
my emphasis was my last line that leaker would need an atty
did i screw this up?
“did i screw this up?”
No, you didn’t. I poked at the double meaning of ‘killing the messenger’.
-Mona- does it metaphorically while the CIA does it. You are quite right to assume family threats are in play.
(I cannot recommend -Mona- be hired as an attorney based on her blatant disregard for the US constitution.)
-Mona- attempts to discredit those she feels have crossed an obvious moral boundary. She is an enemy of free speech despite her purported legal training. Glenn went to SCOTUS to allow the Nazis to exercise their right to free speech. -Mona- dishonors continually Glenn’s work while reminding us, ad nauseam, that she was his former law partner.
-Mona- posted one of the best links I’ve seen in some time, regarding the WaPo story on the history of the US government interfering in foreign elections. A really great post from -Mona-. This is a genuine statement, -Mona-.
And then she labels someone’s simple, reasonable, post as something to be ignored because this “crank” has mentioned someone who has a website that publishes crazy stuff … while directing often commenters to her website which bashes the mentally ill. *
Her response to this post will be most likely the assertion, ‘nuf said is an anti-semite and a crank so we can all agree that he should be ignored.’; childish schoolmarm behavior.
* disclaimer: I am only guessing her web site bashes the mentally ill based on her posted excerpts. I’ve never clicked on her links that are not related to the article topic.
Yes, there’s all of that and more. Not everyone is as courageous as an Edward Snowden or a Daniel Ellsberg. I doubt I could be.
But some are, and they make a big difference in the world.
Paleocons don’t suppress contrasting opinion. But 168 years of Marxism demonstrate that progressives do, including Facebook and NYT.
According to Chairman Zuckerberg
What a lot of people don’t realize is that one of the most insidious forms of misinformation is the truth. The truth can be used to obscure a larger truth. In this case, the larger truth is that Mr. Putin would have influenced the election if he could. The fact that he did not, while technically true, serves to obscure this larger truth in the minds of people who interpret things on a literal level. Facebook made the right call in this instance.
“In this case, the larger truth is that Mr. Putin would have influenced the election if he could.”
Chuck Todd, Meet The Press, went out of his way to make this exact point while Priebus pointed out how circular Todd’s argument was.
Ms. Strassel, WSJ, just said she has spoken to intelligence officials who say the “Russians got into the RNC system but were unable to get anything out.”
the push for the russia-did-it wmd is striking! This push for that lie seems to be pivotal for someones’ (plural) agenda and in contrast to the DNC desire for TPP does not compute.
WMD all over again?
“WMD all over again?”
Yes, it seems so. Stephanopoulos repeated that CIA got the Iraq WMD story wrong was so one-off that it really is unfair for Trump to bring it up continually. He hammered this point.
There is a real sense of a shit-storm cooking. The mask of 911 is going to be ripped off at some point.
i do suspect these are all tied together somewhere
the MASK OF 911 indeed
shit-storm cooking, americans arent buying the bs from ws anymore
msm trying to bury 911 with this R-D-I crap
and constrain Trump
they must be quite worried, quite worried
since B7 did not crater from fire
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/736223/9-11-tower-Building-7-collapse-fire-conspiracy
then there is a lot of ‘splainin to do.
SOMEONE KNOWS and what they know will connect some dots
all roads lead to 911
Adam Schiff did not seem to be the least bit open to more wmd bs which strikes me as odd b/c a normal person would acknowledge & respect the doubts. Carrying water for the Kremlin? unbelievable.
events and meanings when properly matched yield truth
mr zuckerberg is simply ducking out of fear of being blamed for aiding and abetting lies by those most interested in spreading lies
but mr zuckerberg in his limited wisdom for solutions is digging in the sand
his background of taking will result in his finding a formula to create the most acceptable reality.
https://twitter.com/craigmurrayorg?lang=en
This burst of common sense is very welcome.
There is a stark contrast with the care the WashPost showed in using the anonymous Deep Throat. Now it is uncritically accepting anonymous “officials” who relate second hand knowledge of what others are supposed to have concluded, without offering any supporting details.
This is left to look like it may be just another example of insider access journalism, “sources” with an agenda feeding their fake news to a friendly, credulous press.
It is so poorly done that it undermines what might be a better story. It is just bad journalism even if true.
Are you that NYTs respondent?If so,keep up the good work.
John Buford,the man who saved the Union.
You may be on to something there…
Nixon tried to drain the swamp after his first term.
Bad journalism is often effective propaganda, which has a completely different goal than winning the Pulitzer.
Don’t worry, they’ll issue another smug, half-baked “clarification” to sort-of cover their asses when the bullshit piles too high. Just after the hysterical left moves on to the next, even grander conspiracy to explain how everything is clearly somebody else’s fault.
This is an excellent article, with valid points.
It’s so disheartening that the media runs will all the other BS instead of the real story.
Check Todd was just awful to Reince Priebus on Meet the Press today, all based on nothing factual.
There are beliefs In the CIA about Trump-Russia but people don’t realize intelligence analysts always propose alternative theories – it’s a sort of war gaming. Until one is selected and approved by upper management it is one theory among many.
This is just grasping-at-straws Red Scaring, more worthy of Karl Rove than a so-called newspaper.
Also, even if the Russians did do something it has nothing to do with Trump. If I have a hateful neighbor and someone threatens him so he leaves town I benefit. But I had nothing to do with the threat. That sort of connection is the faulty logic the GOP is famous for and now the Dems, sadly, are doing it.
WaPo in October:
The long history of the U.S. interfering with elections elsewhere
Oh.
You mean it’s laughable for the United States, and polticos from both parties, to be shrieking in appalled horror at the possibility that Russia “interfered” in an American election by showing the voters how the DNC operates? Yeah, that’s what you mean, or should mean.
Hiawatha Warren’s strident support of GS Hillary speaks volumes about her own values.
Many of you lost money to another Democratic Socialist, Bernie Sanders, who let you know in no uncertain terms that the DNC is more important to him than you.
ok. Liz Warren and Bernie are good people, just got deceived.
this is what counts
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/12/cias-absence-conviction/
please post everywhere.
thank you
Actually, Liz Warren has developed a reputation as a coward and opportunist in progressive circles, for withholding her endorsement in the primary until there was a winner, and more recently, speaking out on DAPL apparently only after it was known that construction through Standing Rock would be halted.
.. not to forget her ‘warhawk’ views w/ respect to Iran, and if I’m not mistaken, G2` exposed her stance on voting to fund Israel’s Gaza war crimes back in 2014(?)
suave`d’nger
Yeah, no, I totally decline to take political instruction from a crank like you, who endorses a literally criminal Fritz Springmeier is a font of Great Truth:
You. Are. A. Crank.
-MONA-“You. Are. A. Crank.”
Hiawatha Warren’s strident support of GS Hillary speaks volumes about her own values.
Many of you lost money to another Democratic Socialist, Bernie Sanders, who let you know in no uncertain terms that the DNC is more important to him than you.@Communete
A simple statement that many could get behind; Bernie is a sell-out, Warren is a sell-out.
Why is -Mona- so destructive?
It is her “wretched” nature.
Reply.
Its next to impossible Russia did anything to disrupt our election other than printing truth at RT or their other media outlets.
And Pocahontas will probably be defeated next cycle,she’s been exposed as a complete fraud.
One way this can be resolved is if the source seeks asylum and comes forward. I realize that’s too much to ask of someone, but it would be a nice blow to establishment outlets and hacks. (I do believe Craig Murray. Unlike anonymous CIA officials, his name is on the line, and he doesn’t have a track record of being a liar. The track record of Wikileaks is also spotless, as far as I know.)
facebook and freedland working together?
https://twitter.com/craigmurrayorg?lang=en
Glenn, you prove time and time again that you are a real and honest journalist: bringing up facts; calling out both sides when they are wrong, hypocritical, etc.; giving credit where due; raising your readers’ awareness of the real issues at hand; and writing pieces that are efficient and to the point. I turn to The Intercept more and more. Thank you.
By Craig Murray….
The CIA’s Absence of Conviction
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/12/cias-absence-conviction/
Globalists really thought they were going to give you Bush Clinton again. They thought Americans were that stupid.
You should be thankful that a constructive thinker of independent means who wasn’t part of the axis entered the race. Many were thankful he didn’t play the apology games, give newspeak to progressive corporate media, thankful he said real things to an electorate. Voters reward that.
Mr. Greenwald is starting to realize that he was gamed by one of Putin’s operatives. Snowden wasn’t a truth teller, he was an agent of the Russian state–and GG ate his crap up with a fork.
Now Mr. Greenwald is trying to play the Alt-Right (how ironic given his orientation) “No Evidence” card. Sorry, Glenn–there’s plenty of evidence, and a sh!tload of congressmen HAVE SEEN IT. You just don’t have the clearance. Nor should you have it, given your history as a useful idiot for the ambitions of Vladimir Putin.
Your name will soon be — well, not Mudd, since Mr. Mudd was a doctor who did do good in his practice, having the bad luck to set the leg of an assassin — unremembered in the annals of world history, and if at all recalled, you’ll be “That propagandist that enabled the rise of fascism in the USA.”
Ugly legacy, that. Wear it.
“Putin has gone too far”
https://twitter.com/AdrianChen/status/807821169755914240
The fake news that Trump is a racist and sexist–that fake news outlets like CNN and NYT relentlessly peddled–wasn’t lost on actual people. Homeless of color who asked me for money were occasionally polled ad hoc by myself. I asked them who they planned to vote for. They, said “I don’t know. I really don’t know.”
They knew this building developer, celebrated in NYC for decades before June 2015, who Oprah warmly received as a television guest, isn’t a racist. They knew Hillary is a violent psychopath.
They know Dem machine politics, they know stacking ballots with SSI death index names and illegal immigrants is a Dem specialty. They know that clueless social justice warriors aren’t deep thinkers, they know the same ghettoize themselves in Cali, Mass, NY and then ask why their voting strength doesn’t translate to electoral gains.
But do they know about all the Satanically mind-controlled sex kittens and other zombies whom you know have resulted from the Illuminati’s plots, as set forth in several learned treatises by your favorite author?
Mona, you keep denying what communete says, however there is a lot of evidence to support Springmiere, L. Fletcher Prouty, and others. In 1974 a house subcommittee conducted an investigation into the CIA, in fact you can watch it on you tube. In that inquiry the CIA had to come clean about MK Ultra, operation paperclip, and mind control, amongst many other things. In fact, in 1972 a hospital in Montreal was shut down because the CIA were running mind control experiments and were caught. Which was the main catalyst to the inquiry. Not to mention it has been common knowledge for a long time that the CIA were running LSD experiments on unsuspecting civilians the 1950’s. I wouldn’t trust the CIA as far as I can spit.
Thank you for critiquing this story. In the wake of such loosey goosey reporting at traditional news outlets it’s no wonder that the “fake news” is so popular—it’s becoming increasingly difficult to take traditional news outlets at their word. Thanks for what you do Glenn. I hope one day the Intercept builds itself up to a daily, physical publication; how cool would that be; I could then trade in my “paper of record” nyt for some real journalism.
Great article ,loved the points made…and Democrats do need to take a harder look at themselves…the game goes on..
One thing about interference from foreign governments/business is the monies that continually flows between all countries…and does affect all peoples in many ways.
I don’t know what the CIA is playing at but it is a dangerous game.
First, it is simply awfully patronising to the people who voted Trump. It’s telling them they have been manipulated by a foreign country and it chimes perfectly with the very same discourse Trump has been using. It will be CIA vs The People. Great.
Second, they do not say that what Podesta wrote has been faked. Sorry but if Clinton lost, it was because she was too close to Wall Street (the irony looking at Trump’s cabinet) and that’s what the emails showed. A successful democracy rests on information: for the people to make an enlightened choice, they need to know what they vote for. Hillary Clinton was close to Wall Street, the People didn’t like it and they voted for the guy promising to “drain the swamp”.
The choice for this election was a case of for the lesser of two evil… Hillary lost because, on analysis, she was not really better than a lying morally bankrupt sexist racist sociopath. And the Podesta emails showed just that: she is no better than this fat idiot of a man. And the CIA is trying to make the American public forget that. Pathetic.
@Gator
It doesn’t take a genius to understand that non-minority working class people are going to more easily fail to see, or to know and accept, Trump’s racism and his overtly racist supporters. Without being racists themselves. Many working class whites who voted twice for Obama, voted this time for Trump.
The reasons why they did so have everything to do with the failings of the Democratic Party, and especially the deep elitism of Hillary Clinton.
Moreover, this has been widely reported:
That is simply amazing. Even as racist and awful as Trump and many of his appointees and supporters are, he got more black votes than Romney did.
Finally, and critically, Democrats cannot win elections if they lose too much of the white working class vote. They did lose a lot of that cohort, and have been, at the federal, state and municipal levels, for quite a few years.
We have an existential dilemna which is a clash between between the apparent need for eduation and the need to enjoy life with the assets we have so why go to school, just work to maintain if you have to.
When Kanye West gets his doctorate which he can afford to do, only then will i believe that education is an inherent demand.
Until that dilemna is fixed, we will thrive away on conflict and the pressure cooker will cook.
When Kanye West gets his doctorate which he can afford to do, only then will i believe that education is an inherent demand.
I would suggest that there are a great many people in the world who have managed to become educated about a great many kinds of things without ever setting foot in the halls of academia.
This is particularly true when one takes into account the democratization of education access inherent in the development of, and widening access to, the internet.
Why do you suppose tptb are fighting so hard to reduce/control that access otherwise? It isn’t just lack of education that causes conflict to thrive, but it is a factor, especially when the facts are deliberately obscured and/or framed as ridiculously manichean scenarios.
Funny,the longer one is in academia,the dumber they get.
The best education money can buy is inherently dumb.
Funny,the longer one is in academia,the dumber they get.
Really? I graduated with a BS, received additional further certification in the fields of clinical microbiology, mycology and mycobacteriology, then spent 30 years working at a university medical center doing HIV research.
I don’t consider myself brilliant by any means but I do find your broad brush as vaguely insulting as I find the one that labels the formally uneducated “dumb”.
Given a certain unique fact about Romney’s opponent, the fact that Trump’s tiny share of the black vote exceeded Romney’s does not strike me as even mildly surprising, let alone amazing.
While I would like to see Democrats pursue all realistically obtainable votes, I’m not sure what sacrifices would be required in order to successfully court white voters (“working class” or otherwise) who in 2016 found a perceived champion in Donald Trump.
Gator, you seriously don’t find it of any relevance that black voters voted in larger numbers for DONALD TRUMP than they did for Mitt Romney? That’s…odd.
And I wrote this:
It is going to be exceedingly difficult for Democrats to win elections, anywhere, without a segment of the white working class electorate — the segment that isn’t motivated by racism. If you don’t see that, then you are part of the problem afflicting the Democrats, and are why they are losing all over — federal, state and municipal.
Earlier in this thread, referring to written documents, Mona wrote:
“They are not offered to prove the truth of the matters asserted therein.”
For those of you who grapple with the meaning of words like “evidence”, “analysis”, and so on, take some time and ponder this statement. You will learn something valuable.
The bottom line, if you do not wish to read the rest of this post, is that some people here seem to be either confused, or paranoid, or simply being propagandists. If you are confused, what follows may help you. If you are paranoid or a propagandist, you don’t need to read further.
Mathematics and Logic are self-contained and closed systems in which one can “prove” a statement, in a final and binary way (setting aside Godel for now).
Beyond that, even in science, “proofs” are provisional and tentative. Some forms of evidence, for example, pregnancy, are subject to physical evaluation; others are not.
In practice, and in the process of “day to day living”, in order to offer evidence for a statement, one must, as a minimum: a) make a precise statement, and b) offer evidence that supports the charge made in the said statement.
For example, evidence for the statement that implicates the involvement of “the Russians” requires evidence that may be vastly different from one implicating “the Russian government”. Moreover, in evaluating the weight of evidence, the source of the evidence, the independence of the evidence, the presence of corroborating material, the absence of alternative explanations, and many other factors are considered.
We, as the people, have very little in the sense of first hand evidence regarding the involvement of the Russian government. Given the checkered history of the people who are offering this “hidden” evidence, it is reasonable to be dismissive; it seems to be a boring rehash of innuendo and rumor.
let’s keep it simple.
the “russia did it” cult will always blame Russia for their failings and always target Russia for their twisted agenda to rob Americans.
Nicely done.
Yes, but just to clarify, my observation was given in the context of the pervasive Democratic claim that one should not believe the leaked emails because they are essentially “hearsay.” They aren’t.
The value of these emails is not in learning the “truth” about Bernie Sanders because a DNC Staffer declared: “Bernie Sanders is an atheist Jew.” The emails are useful for showing that a DNC staffer said that he is, and that they should use that “fact.”
Hear, hear!
My concerns will only deepen, should these so-called facts indeed fall flat: continued agitation of Russia and our relations thereof, and Trump (who apparently doesn’t need intelligence briefings anyway) will have his own masturbatory “I told you so” moment.
THANK YOU! With our mainstream “media” and even “left” alternative media I feel like I am back in the 1950’s with Joseph McCarthy at the wheel. Pushing laws about “stopping fake news” and blaming Russia for leaking the Clinton e-mails (as if that meant they also TYPED them) and now the WMD CIA is making ACCUSATIONS of Russia hacking voting machines? I need to see MUCH supporting evidence to even think about lending credence to such MEDIA and GOVERNMENT claims.
Hang on, NOW you are all of the sudden concerned about getting the facts straight before making an accusation!? Trump’s entire campaign was based on making an accusation, then when he was asked for proof he would reply with, you prove to me it didn’t happen.
Rigging elections is (most people would agree) a conspiracy. Thus placing these claims in the realm of Conspiracy Theories. So, you should probably go talk to some Conspiracy Analysts.
What they say is, basically, there is a schism in the Deep State between Globalists and the Nationalists. This schism reaches across most of the Governing structures (the root conflict is international in scope). Globalists are willing to sacrifice the Nation State for the greater glory of the the New World Order (Corporatism).
However, the United States, Russia and other Nations are organized around the concept that their countries have some intrinsic value that transcends mere dollar value, the essence of Patriotism. So you have Patriotism vs Corporatism. Whatever their other failings, Military and Intelligence people view themselves as Patriots. It forms a part of their core identity.
You can see the schism here.
Corporatist: “How much for your Nationalism, your Patriotism, your Sacred Honor?”
Nationalist: “Its not for sale.”
Corporatist: “I find that offensive, because EVERYTHING is for sale or should be.”
Nationalist: “Got to Hell.”
Technically, they didn’t “rig” the election as much as influence it using psyops. It’s called electioneering. Being members of the Intelligence Community, they were able to access the Deep State information/database/surveillance structures to influence the election.
The bit about Russia is mostly misdirection. As in, “Hey it wasn’t us! The Russians did it!”
most excellent post, great insight. many thanks.
Disagree;Some intelligence folks might be patriots(Snowden)but most seem to be zionist mole traitors,and Trump vs. the CIA?Who would one want to win?Patriots say Trump.
Break them into a thousand pieces Donald.
The people who can’t see that the election of Donald Trump is a course correction in American politics,where Americas interests are paramount,not zions,need psychiatric help to remove the motes from their eyes.
you make sense but i dont follow the logic
silver is arguing economics as the target
Snowden being a nationalist
i think silver is presupposing ‘maybe russian interests were involved, but certainly intel insiders’ but the mix boils down to the same dilemna.
wouldnt you agree with that?
I guess I misinterpreted it,my point being only that the intelligence agencies are not American patriots they are zionists,or whores.
And now DT has a perfect opportunity to destroy it,the CIA and all its bitter fruit.
I disagree totally that Russia had any interference in our election,as I’m sure even they thought the HB would win,and why would they make an already damaged relationship with her worse by doing said?
No way,they aren’t idiots.
Are they happy over the outcome?Of course,but no happier than US patriots.
Trump’d Tower (Tall) Tales Con’t
“.. where America interests are paramount” d`hoit
Especially the children(s)..
“Nearly Four in ten African-American children are living in poverty.I will not rest until children of every color in this country are fully included in the American Dream.” -dt
Once again, bogus rhetoric ‘trumps’ reality, while the fanatical still continue to dry-hump their demigod’s leg..
Stop the idiocy.
When Trump fails to deliver on his promises is when you will have cause to critique him.
Is it not true that minority communities are impoverished?And non minority?
All from neoliberalism and its profit over humanity evil.
Classic.. You’re stating that the Turd”.. has a perfect opportunity to destroy it,the CIA” (w/ his Magical Pixie Wand?), and I’m the idiot..
Stay special, d’hoit.. You’re as spent as they come..
yes you are.
Here is the CNN fake news of the day.
“Where’s the outrage over Russia’s hack of the US election?” http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/10/opinions/how-politicians-let-russia-hack-americas-election-waldman/
Russia did not hack the US elections. Obama himself said the elections were not rigged.
The hack (by who knows) was of DNC and Podesta emails. Did these emails help Hillary lose? Maybe Hillary should be asked this question.
fbi disagreed with cia presumptuous ness.
Craig Murray, who often visits Julian Assange, claims he has met the source of the leaks, and it’s not the Russians.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/12/cias-absence-conviction/
as a former obama supporter, it is becoming more evident that obama is betraying the people of the US.
Craig Murray is a former ambassador and human rights activist.
I read this. Thanks for reposting.
amazing.
who has that much power that can command the perpetration of CIA LIES on a global basis?
thanks!
Talk about “fake news”! Unnamed sources, who are “not conclusive”, and “no concensus among the 17 agencies” (btw, WHY the h— do we have 17 intel agencies?) Are these the same CIA analysts who, at Obama’s direction, lied about the threat from ISIS? If Russia wanted to obliterate Clinton, i’d think there would be any number of EASIER ways to do so, ie Bills ongoing manwhoring and predator parties to start. Here’s what’s really going on – the emails from the Nov 6 Wikileaks release ARE in fact “smoking guns” for parlance and code for sex rings. Sex rings ARE “conspiracies” duh. See FBI’s Operation’s Avalanche, Hamlet, Candyman, most recent, Pacifier and Rescue – all of which were child sexual abuse rings involving high level govt, military, LE officials. And Obama is clearly described by Stratfor intel employees in SOME apparent illicit abuse of tax-payer dollars to “fly in” something to high level vip’s at a WH “private party” “using the same channels” as Podesta gang’s “pizza” and Stratfor was setting up a website taking credit card payments, again titled “Pizza” and “shipping internationally”. All of it is textbook red flag chat. And the wild, incredible backlash and censorship since that last Podesta email release from the Dems and now this CIA diversion only indicates a serious, real concern that yes something in fact touched a real NERVE. Nothing “fake” about pizzagate.
Shorter Glenn Greenwald (with MUCH love!):
“Facts!! We don’t need no steenking facts!!!”
I predict this will be just like WMDs in the end. That is, a year or two from now it will be clear that there never was any convincing evidence tying the Russian state to Wikileaks-released material. Then they will say “but but but no one could have seen that.”
Na. It’s a slam dunk, Jose.
Right. The four (4) hundred pound guy in New Jersey must be … Chris Christie!
*it’s a #nobrain’er
You can certainly narrow it down considerably if Christie weighs 400 ponds. About .1% of the population in the US is greater than 400 ponds at his age (54 years).
I’ve always known you were George Tenet in drag.
Being in drag is wrong for what reasons, Pedinska?
What’s bad is being George Tenet, Craig. What’s worse is trying to costume oneself to hide that identity — although, in this case, the costume is so unconvincing that we should consider dropping that charge as part of the plea bargain.
Did I say being in drag was wrong? Strange, I don’t recall doing that. Perhaps you could link to the comment where I did that.
George Tenet, however, was demonstrably lying when he gave his “slam dunk” assurance to Bush.
I don’t know if he was lying or not. I do know that he was wrong. Regardless, just a little sarcasm. Why do you think I said it?
Thanks.
The Podesta emails show that Hillary’s campaign targeted Trump as a Putin stooge back in 2015 before the primaries. With Obama now calling for an investigation, he’s basically de-legitimizing Trump at the behest of Hillary and her operatives. The lying CIA was politicized back during Bush’s term. It’s being politicized again, this time with a vengeance.
No. Any modern nation-state is going to, at a minimum, seriously investigate who and why appropriated a huge trove of documents from a major political party during an election. It is plausible that Russia was associated with this hacking. Smart and reasonable people find it so.
But no reasonable person should accept that Russia did this in the absence of compelling evidence. And even there, just what do those most loudly shrieking about Russia expect the United States should do, if and when it’s determined Russia was behind this hack?
Most importantly, all this McCarthyite hysteria about “Kremlin stooges” and “Putin apologists” vis-a-vis demands for evidence, or for any who take a postion(s) that aligns with Russia’s, is dangerous and moronic.
More to the point, whoever hacked these emails and for whatever reason, it is the content of the emails themselves that deserves the most scrutiny . So far , no one ( other than “fake news” stories- I guess the Clinton position could be characterized as some fake news stories are more equal) has suggested that the emails are not real. The widespread pattern of behavior and malfeasance the emails reveal should act as an estoppel to complaints that other nations could or possibly did use them to their own benefit. It is similar to a minor who posted a picture on Facebook showing the minor participating in underage drinking and then complains that his mother forwarded the picture to a judge who has an underage drinking case involving the minor on her docket.
Mr. Greenwald fails to acknowledge the CIA has a greater knowledge of rigging foreign elections than any other organization on Earth. Many here will be quick to dismiss that as the logical fallacy of appeal to authority. They may be right, but I still trust the medical opinion of my neurologist more than the medical opinion of my local butcher.
I think everyone can agree on this much; the election was rigged. Mrs. Clinton had long ago been ordained to be the next president and it is obvious the election didn’t proceed as planned. The first person to declare the election was rigged was actually Mr. Trump. The Democrats were rightly horrified that he would sow the seeds of questioning the democratic legitimacy of elections. Many pundits believed that Mr. Trump had committed a horrible gaff when in the last debate, he refused to say whether he would contest the election results. But now that Pandora’s box has been opened, we must live with the consequences. So who rigged the election?
Most people think that Mr. Trump lacks the technological savvy to rig an election. Mrs. Clinton, with her expertise in setting up private e-mail servers, is a more likely suspect. However, she lacks a motive for sabotaging her own victory. That leaves the Russians. And yet, the case may not be as airtight as it seems.
What organization has systematically fought to weaken the security of e-mail systems and fought tirelessly against any form of secure encryption? The NSA. The result is that our communications can easily be hacked by any six year old, all in the name of making life a little more leisurely for the so called code crackers at the NSA. As a result everyone in the world, with the possible exception of a few political pundits and World War II veterans, has the ability to hack into Mr. Podesta’s e-mail account. So the list of suspects is larger than generally acknowledged.
To test my theory, I asked my nephew who is more computer savvy than I, whether computer systems were secure. “No” he said, typed something into his keyboard and then said, “here is Mr. Trump’s list of candidates for Secretary of State. See, I’ll just add the CEO of ExxonMobil to this list and the name of John Bolton”. I thanked him for the demonstration, but I must admit, forgot to ask him to restore the original list. Hopefully nothing bad will come of that.
So I’m blaming the NSA, not necessarily for rigging the election, but for creating the conditions where anybody and his dog could have done so.
+1 Benito.
That nephew of yours sounds a lot like mine. His name wouldn’t happen to be Jet, would it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjUk3Bp16zs
“…….I thanked him for the demonstration, but I must admit, forgot to ask him to restore the original list. Hopefully nothing bad will come of that…..”
HaHaHa. An oil executive Secretary of State – and not just any oil executive (The Hill, 12-10-2016):
“……..According to the Wall Street Journal, Tillerson negotiated an energy partnership with Putin in 2011 that the Russian president said could be worth $500 billion……..The following year, Tillerson received the Russian Order of Friendship, one of the highest awards the country bestows upon foreign nationals…….Reuters reported earlier this year that the Exxon Mobil deal with Russia had been put on hold due to sanctions levied against the Kremlin for its annexation of Crimea in 2014. The company has said it intends to resume the deal after sanctions are lifted — a process that Tillerson could help expedite as secretary of State……”
Trump will make Russia great again! The US and Russia will be bombing Islamic terrorists all around the world – together. Trump aligning with Assad? Putin and Trump joint venturing another round of destruction in Grozny? There is no end to the possibilities…..
Trump’s picks are kind of a nightmare for all sorts of reasons, but their alleged ties to Russia signify nothing. It’s a paranoid conspiracy theory that detracts from real and sane concerns.
Speak about flipping his middle finger at US intelligence. He not only has told the 17 US departments that make up US intelligence they are wrong, but he then appoints an oil exec with clear business ties to Russia as Secretary of State (reportedly). Russian Order of Friendship indeed. Trump must have read the Greenwald article! Trump ran with the promise of building closer ties with Russia so he is not deviating from what he promised (in this case).
The whole situation in Washington is hilarious. Trump will make for lots of interesting discussions. He absolutely has no diplomatic skills. Alienating his intelligence department may not be the brightest idea to begin his first term. He certainly is not afraid to challenge the status quo!
No,the nightmare is almost over,as Obombas picks were scary as hell,and Trumps are almost all non establishment newcomers.
Could they be bad?Time will tell.
it were a group of dummies in Haifa who figured that hacking hellary would earn her lots and lots and lots of sympathy – you know, making her a victim and all.
First of all, lets take some comfort that President-elect Trump has no ’email’ to hack. He makes his money the old fashioned way. I’ve seen photographs of his gold-encrusted office with no computers in sight, afaict … nyet ??????????? devices at all.
*Trump, obviously, Twitters late at night sometimes … but who/why in the world would anyone “hack” a Twits account?
In any case, President Obama has ordered a full secret review. .. so sooner or later we’ll know more and more about less and less and, eventually, we’ll know everything about nothing.
p.s. @ benitoe. Evidently, the new comment policy @ The Intercept does not accommodate the Russian language … just fyi.
Ha, ha, ha!
I am tired of b#llsh!tting Western MSM (including theIntercept).
I just came here to have a few laughs while reading il Duce’s comments, which didn’t disappoint me
RCL
Wait a minute, is this sarcasm? I so confused… LOl
For those with an impaired ability to detect sarcasm: sarcasm alert.
David Swanson on the CIA’s reliability
http://davidswanson.org/node/5378#.WE1NsRI1u8I.facebook
WikiLeaks published classified documents from Bradley Manning without censorship.
All of the WikiLeaks about Hillary Clinton was embarrassing to her, Podesta, The Media, and others. Nothing published from Hillary’s or Podesta’s emails were classified.
Did Russia hack Hillary’s 650,000 or 33,000 email files and filter out ALL classified data before passing it onto WikiLeaks? Is the KGB that bored?
Would the KGB protect US classified data that doesn’t concern them but may embarrass the US and their allies?
Did WikiLeaks turn over a new leaf and filter out all classified data themselves before publishing Hillary’s and Podesta’s emails? WikiLeaks Censors nothing.
Did the group Anonymous hack Hillary’s and Podesta’s emails and filter out all classified data before passing it onto WikiLeaks to be published? Why does Anonymous group care so much about protecting US classified data from being published?
Did Insiders from the FBI, CIA, NSA, or others obtain Hillary’s classified data from her open private server at her house and filter out all classified data before passing it onto WikiLeaks?
Would Rogue Intelligence agents care about protecting US classified data but still have desire to embarrass Clinton, Podesta, and expose their corruption and collusion to American’s through WikiLeaks?
Which is more plausible?
Six trillion dollars $6,000,000,000,000. Here is what 1 trillion looks like http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/calculations.html
The Intercept does not like the idea they’ve been played.
wow
what a quip
a little play action from the HELLARY BLEW IT camp?
and cant handle the truth.
Obviously, Glenn, some of us will find ways to “accept” whatever empire tells us and do whatever we can, with whataboutery and poor logic if need-be, to support those conclusions.
Ruskie.
It comes down to what Tucker said(holy sh*t I’m siding with Tucker Carlson over the Dems?!) at 2:45 when he listed all of the other major hacks that meant little, apparently. Why again are Podesta’s emails so darn important? Follow your heart, people. You know it’s real.
Doug Salzmann
“…….I’m bored now. If anyone has anything better, let me know……”
Mona
“……Nice job, Doug…..”
Doug Salzmann is bored. That’s understandable. This is getting to be rather repetitive. For example, Doug blamed the US for war crimes committed by Russia in Syria. Doug called the Ukrainian revolution in 2010 a US coup. Doug (sensitively) referred to Murtaza Hussain’s article on the humanitarian Syrian organization, the White Helmets as “vile and dishonest propaganda for terrorist collaborators and frontmen — and worse, terrorists themselves — funded and guided by the US and Western allies”. Doug called the 2014 Syrian elections “valid”. See a pattern here? Is it any wonder then that Doug is attempting to muddy the waters with the information presented by Crowdstrike which pinpointed the Russians in the hack of the DNC? Two cyber-security firms conducted independent reviews of the Crowdstrike data (FactCheck.org; “Trump, Russia and the U.S. Election” http://www.factcheck.org/2016/12/trump-russia-u-s-election/ 12-8-2016):
“……“Based on our comparative analysis, we agree with CrowdStrike and believe that the Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear .?.?. groups were involved in successful intrusions at the DNC,” Michael Buratowski, a senior executive at Fidelis, said in a blog post Monday. Fidelis analyzed samples of the malicious software used in the DNC hack……“The malware samples matched the description, form and function that was described in the CrowdStrike blog post,” Fidelis stated. “In addition, they were similar and at times identical to malware that other [research firms] have associated to these actor sets.”……Mandiant, a cyber-forensics firm owned by FireEye, based its analysis on five DNC malware samples. In a statement to The Washington Post, Mandiant researcher Marshall Heilman said that the malware and associated servers are consistent with those previously used by “APT 28 and APT 29,’’ which are Mandiant’s names for Fancy Bear and Cozy Bear, respectively…….”
To suggest as Doug did that the information released by Crowdstrike and confirmed by two more Cyber-security firms does not constitute “evidence” is simply an attempt to obfuscate the obvious conclusion. It may not be “proof” that the Russian government directed the DNC hack, but it is solid evidence that Russia was behind the hack. Now that is a one man disinformation campaign.
Furthermore, the findings of three independent cyber-security firms lend credibility to the conclusions of the 17 intelligence agencies that Russia was behind the hacking of the DNC (despite the apparent bad blood between the FBI and the CIA as if this really interferes with the conclusions).
Finally, it might be convenient to call the CIA “professional liars” to discredit their conclusions, but when the hero of the radical left tweets that US intelligence has the means to identify the hackers, this also lends credibility to the conclusions of the 17 intelligence agencies and the three cyber-security firms (Edward Snowden from the Mackey article):
“…….Even if the attackers try to obfuscate origin, #XKEYSCORE makes following exfiltrated data easy. I did this personally against Chinese ops……”
“…….Evidence that could publicly attribute responsibility for the DNC hack certainly exists at #NSA, but DNI traditionally objects to sharing…….”
“…….Without a credible threat that USG can and will use #NSA capabilities to publicly attribute responsibility, such hacks will become common…….”
“…….This is the only case in which mass surveillance has actually proven effective. Though I oppose in principle, it is a mistake to ignore……”
So it’s not surprising that the same bumbling intelligence Agencies in Russia which allowed Ukraine to fall to the west left a clear fingerprint on the hack of the DNC.
Thanks.
What say you Mr. Greenwald?
Craig-
Glenn has gone on record that the sun rises in the EAST. What’s your response?
I dunno. Let me check with Cozy Bear.
like a(n) (American) football coach after a 63-0 shellacking:
“I can’t answer that until I’ve seen the game films…”
Ha!
there are LOSERS and there are PROFESSIONAL LOSERS
which might you be?
Either way Jesus loves me, right?
Yes,He does,as he knows humans are fallible.
you have a misconception about him?
He will accept you as you will accept all others.
it’s like networking
binding your soul with Jesus allows you to connect with other people and enjoy and share the gift and sacredness of life.
He only asks that you accept Him.
“It could be a guy in New Jersey” by W. B. Yeats
The CIA steps forth and loudly proclaims
Elections are rigged, democracy has died;
Latin American ghosts of leaders once elected
Deposed by the CIA, cackle in their graves;
The watchers slowly shake their solemn heads
What goes around comes around they murmur.
Don’t for get the Iranians. I think the 1953 coup was their finest hour.
Duhmericans know that only the CIA is allowed to interfere with foreign governments. Its the stwpd, stwpd!
CIA concludes FBI meddled in American election would seem to be a more appropriate headline. Considering this inane bunch concluded Iraqi had weapons of mass destruction, America’s terrorist in Syria were “moderate” and Saudi Arabians were not involved in the 9/11 attack ….. In todays world of communication, one must have some credibility before spreading “fake news”.
Excellent! Thank you Mr. Greenwald.
Proving once again that the only “fake” news coming out of Washington DC is that which flows from the mouths of democrats!
No, don’t do what they are doing. You just made it seem like Fox News or other Republican “sources” are legit. Oops.
Did you ever hear of a little thing called WATERGATE? The Washington Post relied on anonymous sources then or did you forget?
If the CIA itself was behind the “hack,” what took place was likely a very soft coup against the neoliberal wing of the oligarchic party; a major economic crisis is ongoing, with strategy seemingly being re-industrialization of certain significant economic sectors, in order to achieve this extirpation of the neoliberalist de-industrializing caste that formed around Bill Clinton and his associates would be required. The Clinton legacy is finished, into the dustbin of history it goes.
Anonymous leaks. Fake news passing as propaganda or the reverse.
If the let’s-let-the-evidence-speak-for-itself principle is to guide this conversation, there may well be the usual problem: the US is not going to want to reveal what it knows and, more specifically, how it knows it.
As Edward Snowden tweeted:
“…….Evidence that could publicly attribute responsibility for the DNC hack certainly exists at #NSA, but DNI traditionally objects to sharing…….”
Which means that the conclusions will only be shared with select members of Congress and the President.
which leaves open the question of who did the hacking, including some interested faction in the u.s. itself.
“…..which leaves open the question of who did the hacking, including some interested faction in the u.s. itself…….”
Russia – a convenient scapegoat. After all, we really don’t know who was behind 911 either.
are you a truther ? or a birther? yeah russia is a convenient scapegoat, pending any actual evidence. so far, the russia did it is all too reminiscent of iraqi wmd’s.
Some of US are absolutely sure zion was behind 9-11,one way or the other.
Anonymous leaks to Wikileaks are the only substitutes for evidence, dammit!
No of course not, but, Instances of the United States overthrowing, or attempting to overthrow, a foreign government since the Second World War. (* indicates successful ouster of a government)
China 1949 to early 1960s
Albania 1949-53
East Germany 1950s
Iran 1953 *
Guatemala 1954 *
Costa Rica mid-1950s
Syria 1956-7
Egypt 1957
Indonesia 1957-8
British Guiana 1953-64 *
Iraq 1963 *
North Vietnam 1945-73
Cambodia 1955-70 *
Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 *
Ecuador 1960-63 *
Congo 1960 *
France 1965
Brazil 1962-64 *
Dominican Republic 1963 *
Cuba 1959 to present
Bolivia 1964 *
Indonesia 1965 *
Ghana 1966 *
Chile 1964-73 *
Greece 1967 *
Costa Rica 1970-71
Bolivia 1971 *
Australia 1973-75 *
Angola 1975, 1980s
Zaire 1975
Portugal 1974-76 *
Jamaica 1976-80 *
Seychelles 1979-81
Chad 1981-82 *
Grenada 1983 *
South Yemen 1982-84
Suriname 1982-84
Fiji 1987 *
Libya 1980s
Nicaragua 1981-90 *
Panama 1989 *
Bulgaria 1990 *
Albania 1991 *
Iraq 1991
Afghanistan 1980s *
Somalia 1993
Yugoslavia 1999-2000 *
Ecuador 2000 *
Afghanistan 2001 *
Venezuela 2002 *
Iraq 2003 *
Haiti 2004 *
Somalia 2007 to present
Honduras 2009
Libya 2011 *
Syria 2012
Ukraine 2014 *
Q: Why will there never be a coup d’état in Washington?
A: Because there’s no American embassy there.
https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list
To: harrylaw
And just imagine if all the, time, money and resources that were used to take down these foreign governments could have been used toward making a better life for the American people, and by people I do not mean elites.
Exactly Fellow Citizen. Linda Bilmes at the Kennedy Law School calculated the combined and eventual long term costs of the Afghan and Iraq wars to be 6 trillion dollars. $6,0000,0000,0000,0000.
Enough, President elect Trump said to fix the infrastructure of the US twice over.
Great datapoint. Saved. Oh,those evil Russians! How dare they try to meddle when we are the meddlers-in-chief ;'(
The Great American People would vote for better lives for themselves through coup cost cutting measures if they were interested.
Election results over the last dozen decades and the recent Syria, Iraq, and Brazil projects show they are more than content with the status quo.
Is it wrong to interfere in elections in another country?
This is an genuine question for CIA, State Department, White House, Pentagon?
I love you Glenn, but you’re wrong about this one. This isn’t American journalism at it’s worst… this is American intelligence giving way too little information about something that should have been apparent for months. Please start to focus your journalism efforts on the treasure trove of information that is the Putin regime’s effort to overtake sovereign regions and undermine democracy.
Those hackers better watch out “MAD DOG” Mattis is coming, here are two quotes from him
1/ “You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn’t wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain’t got no manhood left anyway. So it’s a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them. Actually it’s quite fun to fight them, you know. It’s a hell of a hoot. It’s fun to shoot some people. I’ll be right up there with you. I like brawling.”
2/ “Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.”
Then you have his underling General Mark Millay US Army Chief of staff. If this guy had been around in the sixties Kubrick could have said to him do you want the part of Dr Strangelove, to which Millay may have said I cannot act, “I don’t want you to act just be yourself, your a natural, oh and bring your uniform”. The guy needs to be in a strait jacket.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvVrQqU1Gwc
Mattis is a Marine,not a flower child.
Marines shouldn’t be f*cked with.
Actually,I think he might be a great choice,an American for America,not zion.
Unless you like Israel as our master?
Just FYI, pay no attention to “dahoit.” He’s an antisemitic crank and starry-eyed worshiper of Donald Trump who advocates all kinds of crazy and stoopid. There aren’t a lot of those here, but there are a few. Most of us ignore them, which is good for discouraging their posting.
Ms.Clueless demonizes again.At least no curse words,they probably advised her to tone it down,the commie? creep.
As most agree,you are the worst thing here.
Scroll on please,you are not worthy.
Does the creep deny the incredible power of zion over the affairs of the USA,and the attempt to fix this election for a career criminal screw up such as HRC ?If so,they should be shot for mind wasting.
These facts would make any logical thinker quite hostile to the people who are doing this,if they were American patriots,which of course,illuminates the creep as not.
Or is it America,twisting zions arms in treating their prisoners,the Palestinians like dogs,or worse,like vermin?
What a f*cking loser.
Never forget that the CIA is an institution dedicated to helping the capitalist class dominate and plunder the world. We should interpret the CIA’s and US ruling class’ attempt to pin the blame on Putin NOT as a warning but as ridicule: the Deep State has been assaulting the public for decades and now disavows all responsibility for the misery of the public. The menace here is the CIA and the US-based capitalist class, not Russia or Putin. The CIA and “US officials” and intelligence personnel aren’t the guardians of civilization (as they would like to have us believe): they’ve come to sack and pillage.
Putin claims to have read the U.S. backed NGO’s original documents:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=akLBItPCcv8
Capitalist class as opposed to what other class?
Yes.The enemy within.
Lets wait for the creep to start defending the CIA,in her Trump hatred.
She agrees their successes can’t be published.
Psychotic.
The CIA is now openly in the business of peddling cartoons. That the CIA and Beltway media and US political establishment all are colluding to spread anti-Russian lies indicates a deep contempt for the public.
What understanding should we have of ourselves? How do the CIA’s lies reveal what the CIA and ruling class believe about us?
Hey Glenn,
I just heard a piece of insight tonight that I felt I just had to share with you and your peeps.
I met with a friend of mine who just came back from visiting his family in China. I asked him if he had any insight into what the govt. in China felt about Trump. He said that the mood seems to be that the Chinese govt is happy Trump is president.
“Why?” I asked him.
“All you have to do with Trump is take care of his personal business interests and the business interests of his children. A lot easier to deal with than anybody who sticks to their principled positions.”
I’m paraphrasing him, but I thought it was a brilliant insight into how some foreign countries maybe sizing up Trump.
What a tragedy. That’s how the leaders of third world countries are bought and sold; by giving them a swiss bank account. And now the president of the US may be for sale. A tragedy indeed.
Just thought I’d share.
Great piece once again. Keep the NYT and Wapo on their toes. The media is the real disease in the US, and everybody knows it.
Best,
AIC
And you think Hillary Clinton was not for sale. She had already auctioned off the State Dept.
Trump made his own money.
The Clintons made their money by prostituting themselves when they were government officials or by leveraging their closeness to government officials.
I never claimed that Hillary Clinton or Bill Clinton or Obama isn’t for sale. Those sales were happening under the table. But the “sales” going forward are going to be auctions, in the open market, going to the highest bidder.
And you’re saying Trump made his own money?? On what fucking planet? In what Universe?? You can fuck off with your “Trump made his own money.”
I meant that Trump made his money in business, outside of Government. He never held office and was not in politics. He is not a career politician.
I meant that Trump made his money in business, outside of Government.
While it is true that Trump has never held office it is false to suggest that his money was made outside of government or that he made his own money. The myth of the self-made man is very, very seldom truth. In his case, it doesn’t apply at all.
???Well,who did make money for Trump,if not Trump?
You prejudiced atheists are weird.
How people can’t or won’t see that this is a struggle of American sovereignty(Trump) vs zionist domination(HB)amazes me,as it is either purist nonsense or ethnic allegiance that drives so many knuckleheads.
CS loves the Hell Bitch.WTF does one need?
Cul de sacs of the mind.
And “now” the president of the US may be for sale. “now”? you mean obama and clinton weren’t?
And “now” the president of the US may be for sale. “now”? you mean obama and clinton weren’t?
It’s a requirement to make it into the final round. Witness the lengths went to to deny Sanders that, ahem, “opportunity”.
Hell, usually someone without that attribute doesn’t even make it past the semi-final. Hence the dem panic – and accompanying fraudulent measures of the DNC et al – during the primaries.
If you google Trump and the deep state, you get all kinds of narratives. Here are some without the links.
“Are Hillary Clinton And Donald Trump Agents Of The Deep State?”
or
“Over the past week, rogue agents within the bureau have leaked to the press information about its investigation into the Clinton Foundation and according to a report in the Guardian, the culture at the FBI is so anti-Clinton that sources are calling it “Trumpland.”
…
The US deep state is now openly intervening in the final days of a presidential campaign.”
or
“US Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump is targeting the American Deep State – a loosely organized cabal who has taken power away from the official government – by blurting out various unspeakable truths, American scholar Dr. Kevin Barrett says.
…
The analyst said “as we approach the final weeks before the American presidential election, Donald Trump, the Republican candidate, is continuing to blurt out various unspeakable truths that are normally suppressed from the mainstream American political discourse.”
or
“The so-called “deep state” — the powerful insiders who really run the intelligence services and inner layers of untouchable bureaucracy — has decided Hillary Clinton is too damaged to defend any longer. Even if she were to win by stealing the election, she would be so mired in criminal investigations and political illegitimacy that she would rip the nation to shreds while fighting for her own political survival.
It has now been decided, I believe, that Hillary Clinton will be taken out of power by releasing criminally damaging emails which have long been held by the NSA and FBI. This will likely happen before the coming weekend. Once that is accomplished, the next goal will be to wait for President Trump to take office, then destroy the U.S. economy through a controlled, global debt collapse so that Trump can be blamed for the near collapse of western economies. (Remember: The deep state isn’t pro-Trump. They’re still all about defending the establishment. But Hillary is one bridge too far for even the statists to stomach…)
Instead of allowing Hillary Clinton to take power and destroy America from the top, in other words, deep state power brokers have reverted to “Plan B” which is to let Trump take the White House, then destroy America through the controlled demolition of its currency and economy.”
or
“The Deep State V. Trump
Donald Trump has the establishment scared out of their establishment minds. That’s exciting. I love it.”
or
“Trump’s “isolationism” vs. Deep State”
or
There are more browsers than just Google. For chrissakes is Google the be all and end all or does it perhaps take part in fake news.
What’s amusing,and makes one doubt that the PTB will dump Trump is the exploding stock market since his election.50,000 DJ claims WS honcho.
Funny dat.
I knew i had to turn off AM Joy, after the ridiculous interview w/Harry Reid, and before I had a chance to listen to Malcolm Nance weigh in.
I’ve been looking forward to your reporting today, because i knew you would offer the only proper response to this ridiculous throwback to “The Russians are coming.”
Thank you, Glenn Greenwald.
Trump’ response to the alleged CIA claims of Russian hacking to to help Trump win – “These are the same people that said [Iraqi President] Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.”
This kind of direct punch back by Trump also shows why certain factions in the CIA are rattled by Trump.
Yeah, that Deep State is just, like, totally, to the max, upset about Donald Trump. The establishment elite are simply beside themselves! Cuz that Trump, his punching, it is so direct and deep.
“I put this question to David Talbot in a telephone exchange Tuesday. Talbot (who founded Salon 20 years ago) has just published “The Devil’s Chessboard,” an account of the deep state focused on the crucial role of Allen Dulles as it emerged in the 1950s. Dulles directed the CIA from 1953 until President Kennedy fired him in 1961. It is Talbot’s contention that elements of the deep state, probably including Dulles, were responsible for Kennedy’s assassination two years later.
“Presidents have to be thoroughly vetted before getting to the White House,” Talbot replied. “Kennedy was probably the last president not thoroughly approved by the deep state. This may be edgy, but I think there’ve been lessons in this for every president since. It’s a question of what a president can and can’t do, or what he does at his own peril.””
http://www.salon.com/2015/10/21/this_is_not_a_democracy_behind_the_deep_state_that_obama_hillary_or_trump_couldnt_control/
Seema, have you checked out Prions Planet? They are very bit as insightful and possessed of acute analytical and logical reasoning skills as you have shown yourself to be. I think they have a comment section and you have so, so much you could contribute there.
Speaking of Prison Planet, I’ve wanted to ask you: Alex Jones says “they” are conspiring to make American boys all gay by putting certain chemicals in boxed juices. This is exactly the sort of issue I’d expect you to be on top of. So what’s the scoop on that?
THE place for discount mis-folded proteins.
HAHAHA. I really fucked that up. Didn’t even notice until you quoted me.
<blockquote TEST
I really don’t understand your comment, Mona.
I read The Devil’s Chessboard and The Brothers, about which I have commented several times here. I spoke of the Dulles’ repulsive behavior by wreaking havoc on the world on behalf of corporations like United Fruit, only one of their many wealthy clients at Sullivan & Cromwell.
Aside from why/how Mr Talbot’s concluded his assessments with this allegation (which is an excellent book) is that LBJ asked Allen to head the Warren Commission, where he was more than capable of directing the investigation – or steering it away. Allen Dulles was a first class bastard of magnitudes more than say – oh, Rumsfeld or Cheney. Reading about them should make your skin crawl and your mouth pucker with distaste.
From a review:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/13/did-allen-dulles-order-the-hit-on-jfk.html:
“Washington was gradually taken over by business executives, Wall Street Lawyers, and investment bankers … During the Eisenhower administration, the Dulles brothers would finally be given full license to exercise their power in the global arena. In the name of defending the free world from Communist tyranny, they would impose an American reign on the world enforced by nuclear terror and cloak-and-dagger brutality … The Dulles brothers would prove masters at exploiting the anxious state of permanent vigilance that accompanied the Cold War.”
Talbot writes … “American democracy was gradually eclipsed by men highly placed in government who saw democracy “as an impediment to the smooth functioning of the corporate state”:
If nothing else, there is this:
The people in power haven’t changed an iota on foreign policy thinking and actions since the 50s .
We have become more of an oligarchy and we still wreak havoc worldwide.
The 2016 election was one run by fear on both sides.
Fear is a disgusting emotion to evoke, but it works, ey?
Its amusing how you know much more whats happening,living in India?, than our humble native? brainwashed moderator,who insults all she can’t argue with,and brings up links to the deep state morons like salon,a bunch of lobotomized concern troll hypocrite liars,all in for the hell bitch.
Alex Jones probably prints more relevant info than the MSM,although of course they are slanted also,but of course our propagandist would deny it vociferously in her dead end brain.
By the way, an apology to Naked Capitalism and others from Daniel Sieradski
https://self.agency/re-naked-capitalism-b-s-detector/773
I hope this is only the first.
Looks like the heat from their attorney’s letter re:defamation are starting to make some asses sweaty.
Good.
Not yet, but it might be interesting to see how that statement changes should they ever get offered a large government contract from, say, a Trump administration. Or whomever comes after.
That’s Vic saying you’re more believable than me; you should be pleased.
( a more believable notion, not a more believable person)
Sure.
It’s a good thing I have a strong sense of self. For I’m told I am you, Vic, and myriad other people here.
If it is alleged I am Seema, however, my center may not hold.
No doubt!
Closest thing I’ve ever said to a nice thing about you too. For the paranoid the world is just one big scary face, isn’t it.
Zionist ‘Jonathan Pollard’ Judas.
Wise words: knock off the bullsh!t. If you want to be a skeptic, be one across the board. We need to look into this possibility of Russian hacking:
https://youtu.be/LBHN7aJGogY
The details were from anonymous sources. President Obama is not anonymous.
Naked capitalism and their lawyer are utterly serious; this is preparation to sue PropOrNot. Discovery would certainly yield identities of those behind it.
Is there possibly a Syria tie in all of this as well? It seems the smear campaigns starts against Russia whenever they thwart U.S. military world domination.
In late 2013, Russia was making threatening warnings against the Ukraine joining the EU. And in early 2014 a hoopla broke out in the US press about the gay propaganda law in Russia. Not that the gay propaganda law was a great thing, but it did not exactly amount to the extermination of Russian gays as everyone was saying it would. It reached such a fever pitch that some were calling for a boycott to the Sochi Olympics and gay New Yorkers were protesting the Russian embassy, as simultaneously, the Crimean peninsula was falling under Russian occupation.
For the last 2 years Russia has successfully put a chink in the armor of the US/UK policy to arm rebels in Syria to overthrow Assad. Is this “certainty” of hacks the CIA leaks now, another passive-aggressive PR tactic against Russia to punish them for liberating East Aleppo?
McCarthyite republican party. THAT is the new democratic party, brought to you incrementally over the past 35 years by Bill Clinton, Obama, Hillary Clinton, and all the operatives of the DNC, the corporate shills within Democratic establishment and deluded supporters. Thanks for your leading the way to get out information we wont get elsewhere. We need to build the movement to Shut off corporate owned MainStreamMedia… and build and support alternative media… to OCCUPY THE MEDIA! * please view our channel and POST YOUR OWN RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ALTERNATIVE MEDIA (Big or Small) https://youtu.be/d2xnms84N3c?
ugh.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/09/11/on-911-trump-noted-that-he-now-owned-the-financial-districts-tallest-building/?utm_term=.133e194fc88f
I was wondering about Trump’s views on 9/11 truth. Given that he is a builder of high-rises, and his base in NYC, he would certainly have a view and specialist and grapevine information on whether buildings could collapse the way they did on 9/11 and what would be needed to cause such collapse.
The link above states that Trump “speculated that bombs must have gone off in the towers as the planes hit because he couldn’t otherwise explain their collapse.”
Could this be one reason why the section of the deep state that gained power because of the 9/11 inside job/ coup is so rattled by Trump?
This is it exactly. People who own large buildings are experts in how they fall down — it is a requirement for owning large buildings.
And so the Deep State is very afraid of Donald Trump, unless of course this is EXACTLY what the Deep State wants, as has been expressed here in the comments section otherwise.
I’m sure that, somehow, both things are true.
I am afraid that I cannot and do not want to engage with or decipher your gibberish. So tag your other avatar Mona with it and ignore me, please.
Both things can’t be true. I have asserted that the Deep State is controlling Trump and dominating his significant cabinet selections. Seema Sapra (and some other posters here) believe Trump is anathema to the elite or shadow government (which I find ludicrous considering his background and his nominees, etc.), and even though you would like to conflate Seema Sapra’s theories with mine they are clearly at polar opposites.
Yeah, Vic, Maisie is not anywhere on the spectrum with Seema. That’s not fair at all. Not that I always agree with Maisie, or endorse all her reasoning, but she’s rational.
Maisie is not bad crazy like Seema, yet oddly Seema’s idea of a “deep state” that is not “one monolith with one view and which works as one” is more believable. Not that it matters.
Maisie right before the election thought it was fixed for Hillary. After the election she didn’t decide the election had not been fixed. She decided that at the last minute the deep state had fixed it for Trump.
Isn’t that right Maisie?
Pretty much. I believe the Deep State was freaked over Clinton doubling-down on her antagonism for Russia, and finally decided on Trump, who they knew they could be equally governed.
This is conjecture only, unlike the existence and expansive reach of the Deep State itself, though it should be noted that the elite are so powerful as to control both parties comprehensively and generally get the results they want regardless of the Dem/Rep charade going on at the surface.
Maisie sometimes posts stuff I find unreasonable, but not irrational. There is a difference.
You talk as if the deep state is one monolith with one view and which works as one.
I have always said that there is a high likelihood that Trump will get co-opted.
And that the US only voted for a new POTUS and not for a new deep state or a new establishment. Of course Trump will placate the establishment.
But I again point out that the deep state is not one monolith. There will be factions within the deep state.
Some of these factions are rattled by Trump based upon the views he has expressed on certain issues like Russia, like 9/11, like US foreign policy, like US wars, and on 9/11. His choice of CIA director, someone who went after the Benghazi truth.
The Clintons were equally part of the deep state.
The CIA has controlled the US presidency since George Bush the first. Trump was not the CIA candidate at least by very public CIA opposition to him. Yet he won. And yet again, there must be factions within the US intelligence community who were for Trump.
The truth is often complicated.
here is an interesting take on this “The Clinton Collapse – Only The Deep State Is So Precise” http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-31/clinton-collapse-only-deep-state-so-precise
http://www.valuewalk.com/2016/11/power-struggle-unfolding-eyes-resolves-will-define-future-live/ and part 2
Interesting analysis of different narratives explaining why Trump won and Hillary lost. I haven’t read part 2 yet because it needs a sign-in, but my preliminary observation would be that some of these narratives (or parts thereof) could all be simultaneously true at the same time. The truth of a US Presidential election victory assuming it was not completely rigged outright (through rigged EVMs etc.) would be quite complex.
Speculation and conjecture aside for a moment, the point as I see it is that the Deep State always gets what it wants, regardless of the supposed ascendance of any internal faction (neo-con or neo-liberal are ultimately the same damn thing n my view) and will get the government to pursue corporatist warmongering and imperialism on behalf of the elite interests, overbloating the military-industrial complex and establishing further Full Spectrum Dominance across the globe while spending far less focus on domestic harmony. (If Trump closes down military bases and cuts defense spending I’ll be very surprised indeed – he’s just not going to do it; in fact he’s declared that making the military even bigger and better is one of his goals – hardly against the Deep State.)
The most significant fact is that the Deep State is an unelected body controlling the government, and – as everyone who knows of them can see – what they (really) want, they get, and that is a mockery of the democratic republic we are supposed to be, regardless of who is president.
“Whatever the reason, we are witnessing the first surfacing of deep and deadly internecine conflicts within the Government, and especially its intelligence community, that predate the Minority President-elect?—?conflicts, however, that his contested election has exacerbated and that will trip up his plans for governing almost for sure.”
https://medium.com/@Robert_Jacobson/the-secret-police-vs-the-deep-state-794f95c8cc82#.ad07stdl1
Clinton was completely malleable. Trump not so much …
“Or maybe, as current news reports suggest, it was a function of FBI intransigence and obstruction resulting from the agency’s commitment to the election of an authoritarian ruler, an outcome the Deep State, which fears having to answer to a strongman President, would never condone.”
“The Deep State is generally assumed to be monolithic: of one mind, so to speak, unified in worldview, strategy and goals.
History suggests that this low-intensity conflict within the ruling Elite is generally a healthy characteristic of leadership in good times. As times grow more troubled, however, the unity of the ruling Elite fractures into irreconcilable political disunity, which becomes a proximate cause of the dissolution of the Empire if it continues.In my view, this is an over-simplification of a constantly shifting battleground of paradigms and power between a number of factions and alliances within the Deep State. Disagreements are not publicized, of course, but they become apparent years or decades after the conflict was resolved, usually by one faction consolidating the Deep State’s group-think around their worldview and strategy.”
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/05/charles-hugh-smith/is-the-deep-state-worried/
You seem to be missing the point that they should not be controlling the government at all, however disunited they appear to be – and any ‘disunity’ is indeed internecine and not involving a threat from outside the paradigm of the Deep State itself: the pursuit of corporatism, militarism and imperialism go on regardless of the puppet show in Washington and the White House, *and* regardless of internal differences in the elite domain. It should be unacceptable that such power be allowed to these people, but they simply have never lost.
If Trump acts in any way to curb corporatism, militarism or imperialism, rather than – as Obama did and as Clinton planned to do – entrench them further, that would be going against the Deep State.
In pursuit of these three greedy evils, the Deep State indeed is monolithic, “with one view and which works as one.” It is this singularity of purpose (Full Spectrum Dominance) that defines it, really.
I’ve seen no sign of Trump challenging any of this substantially; his good sense regarding Russia and the TPP (so far) are certainly laudable, but I predict no real change to broad, endemic corruption at all under his administration.
[giggle, snort]
Mr Trump is basically an idiot and nobody should seriously take anything he has to say with any truth until he can be consistent about a belief, a policy, or an idea, for a good twelve months.
His concrete high-rise might be like comparing fried eggs to the $1,000 Zillion Dollar Lobster Frittata.
I dunno exactly – check it out.
When listening to the corporate media and politicians simply do it to count the lies, identify the distractions, figure out what new lie they are setting up, and recognize their incessant inculcation of blind patriotism accompanied with fear mongering.
Look at the meaningless ads that surround the fake corporate news they place in their various print formats, and remember the publishers are far more beholding to those that pay for the ads then their gullible readers. Whoever first had the idea to sell an ad for profit in a newspaper was inspired by the merchant of untruth.
And then remember as all these falsehoods are presented to you by the media of the elite; they are interrupted by ads designed to separate you from your money to both satisfy their insatiable greed, and finance their corporate media propaganda machine.
We and our loved ones are bombarded with consumerism that establishes the mind set of “me, me, me”. A review of the ads that come into our homes will show that we could easily do without most of the promoted products and services, many of which even carry warnings that they could kill you.
Look at the meaningless products and services splattered on billboards that inculcate our minds, and try to separate us from our money, as we drive our families to major sporting events through our major cities. These sporting spectacles serve today as did the gladiator events of Roman times to both distract and warp the minds of the masses. Please notice that these major sports stadiums are all named after banks, which are a modern day Caligula.
NPR has just confirmed WaPo’s story with their own contacts. I still want to believe you’re objective and you don’t have your own agenda beyond truth-telling and serious journalism, but the last few pieces you’ve done have given me pause about that. It’s starting to seem like you’d rather see the U.S. fall apart because maybe that’s what they all deserve..? Not sure, but that’s how it feels when I come here, and I’m not one to shy away from a bitter truth. I’m just tired of being constantly disappointed by one promising journalist after another. It’s getting harder to tell who’s in it for the right reasons, and I’m someone who knows how to do the research. Please consider how dangerous a thing that is, if you really care about democratic ideals and if you take your role seriously as part of the fourth estate.
Amazing piece, Glenn.
If Putin actually -wanted- to manipulate the outcome in Trumps favour, all he would have to do is express his warm support for Hillary and his deep hopes for her victory. He is exactly that kind-of clever, but really, he is also clever enough to understand it makes no difference who is (s)elected.
Putin is a smart man and that is a good thing because we have to depend on him to prevent WW3 from happening.
So true.
oh my god that is way too logical, shut this person up immediately
#PardonSnowden
https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/take-action/w4r-usa-edward-snowden/
The Washington Post no longer has any credibility in my mind. There is nothing that comes from them that I don’t immediately doubt as fabrication. Their purpose seems to be to undermine Trump and nothing else. I don’t detect any truth or any clean reporting that represents journalism of any sort. I’m not at all surprised by the allegations – but I wouldn’t take anything seriously that comes out of the Washington Post. They have a very long way to go to win back any sense that they represent journalism of any sort. They seem to be a hack for the democratic party. Until they let about half of their staff go and start publishing things that don’t sound like pure BS they will never be taken seriously by about 175,000,000 Americans. Pay attention!
Apologies if this has already been posted. Note that not only was Russia not behind the Podesta leaks, they were insider leaks, not hacks.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/12/cias-absence-conviction/
Amen.
It’ll be interesting to see how long they can keep up this fiction now that widely-read sources like Craig Murray (one of the very few people with first-hand information) and Glenn are calling them on it.
It has become obvious the Deep State, not Russia, is controlling Trump’s significant cabinet selections – just as they would have with Clinton’s nominees had she ‘won.’ Citizens’ apathy (carefully encouraged by the system’s inverted totalitarianism), as well as voting for either Republicans or Democrats, has led to an inevitable permanent entrenching of the corruptions of corporatism, militarism and imperialism afforded by both sides of the aisle. Lee Camp makes some cutting observations about where we are culturally here:
Trump Is The Final Step In The Decades-Long Corporate Criminal Takeover (10.30 mins)
[Note to binary thinkers: This post and video by no means supports Hillary Clinton, who is a psycho who wants war with Russia and is just as owned by the Deep State as Trump has revealed himself to be.]
Maisie on the other hand sells the really sensible conspiracy theories, like the Deep State that controls everything. This is WAAAAAYYY different than saying the Commies or the Jews or the Lizard People control everything folks, this is the Deep State.
Is this a conspiracy theory? I didn’t follow the link, but there is a confluence of interests entrenched in “the state” that pretty much determine many outcomes.
The Deep State happens to be real (why, even Bill Moyers recognizes it!), but it doesn’t control ‘everything.’
Your sudden bursts of angry insolence, for example, are independent of the Deep State.
Donald Duck, too.
Essay: Anatomy of the Deep State
I read that essay, it’s all over the place; no I’m not impressed with it.
If the point is just that there is governmental continuity beneath the surface conflict of up-top partisan politics, then yes — welcome to the history of every civilization ever.
The thing is, when people say now “oh Trump is the triumph of the deep state” after spending months saying “Clinton will be the triumph of the deep state” then….
Nobody bothers to make these arguments if they don’t heighten the suspense. If on the other hand the point is just to say “the governmental bureaucracy underneath is pretty much stable” then that’s quite a bit more boring than the tantalizing “Deep State” phrase implies, isn’t it. It’s not the stuff of alt anything.
You appear to have misunderstood what you read. It isn’t about simple “continuity” or being “pretty much stable.” It’s about an elite that really calls the shots about what the overall direction (further corporatism, militarism and imperialism) of the nation is always going to be.
From the article:
Not “every civilization ever,” as you claim, but a uniquely corrupt and highly undemocratic situation.
Vic just gets mean sometimes, for no apparent reason.
Maybe it would help if we used some synonyms for the Deep State: the Owners, the Rulers, the Bosses, the 0.1%.
But if Trump’s lightspeed conversion to drum major and mascot for an authoritarian capitalist regime run by Goldman & The Generals™, isn’t convincing evidence for you that the usual suspects are not only running the show but bothering less to hide that fact, I think you may need to pay closer attention.
The Lee Camp vid is pretty much right on, notwithstanding that the style is less than somber and restrained — and why would anyone be somber and restrained in the face of The Attack of the Abominable Clusterfuck?
Agreed, it’s so obvious how the corruption is a Deep State duopoly, and controls way too much, and deceptively.
It’s mostly my conjecture Vic seems miffed about, but denying the Deep State’s inappropriate power is just being silly.
Directed to Maisie/Doug/Mona:
My objections to “deep state” talk is much like my objection to most conspiracy theories that involve shadowy figures wielding vast powers. Anybody says anything they want about it, points to anything they want to as proof, and there’s no accountability whatsoever in any of this talk since further support gets as far as these vague statements: “they’re running the show!” and “the corruption is a Deep State duopoly” etc. Any kind of claim gets made, as for example what prez candidate They “really” wanted, or that they don’t care (but yet somehow they do care, if that suits the narrative). When you can claim several things simultaneously and it doesn’t make any difference, then I do indeed question whether we are actually talking about something real.
Regardless, as described the Deep State seems to actually be a truly cooperative effort. This makes it as hard for me to believe in as Santa Claus. Now, if you want to talk about different interest groups pushing their agenda behind the scenes and wielding power I’m totally cool with that, but the cinema-ready title “Deep State” is harder to apply then, isn’t it. People might go see a movie called “The Deep State” but they are not very likely going to go watch “The Disparate Quarrelling Power Grubbers”
I get all that Vic, and you may have noticed I don’t employ the phrase “Deep State.” It does, as you describe, reek of dark, fiendish, All Powerful derring-do in a manner I’m not comfortable with. But Maisie isn’t the only non-insane person doing dropping the phrase.
That I’ve observed, she doesn’t employ it in the manner that some invoke, say, the Illuminati.
You have a bullshit detector. I really, really like bullshit detectors. But yours, while I often relish it, is a tad miscalibrated.
Some Democrats have a sense of survival, and decline to simply shriek: “Russia! Russia! Russia!”
NYT: Democrats Hone a New Message: It’s the Economy, Everyone
Hat tip to TallyHoGazeHound, who tweeted: “Calling Bernie Sanders. Mr. Sanders please pick up a white courtesy phone.”
After seeing Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders say that the corporatist warmonger Hillary Clinton was an appropriate presidential candidate, it’s a wonder anyone believes a word they say anymore.
I know I don’t.
Probably because you don’t understand anything about politics.
Bernie Sanders is in a very good position right now. Had he done what you wanted he would have lost and would now just be a pariah with zero say.
Yup on Bernie. Warren is much iffier; she clearly waited to see who was going to get the nomination, being all diffident before that. Had she thrown her weight behind him, fought for him….
I don’t know, if he’d stood up and said “I know I said I’d go with the eventual candidate, but this is too damn important,” everyone I know on the actual left would have respected him more than they can now.
He’s still got potential as a motivator, I suppose, but his fondness for the Democratic Party and its establishment (which screwed him and still won’t give him power) is hard to comprehend, and both he and Warren and many others seem like Lucy with the football in Peanuts; Warren particularly, as she often makes a big show of dressing-down bigwigs but always to no prosecutorial consequence, while Sanders has accomplished a good deal in his way.
Jimmy Dore and others want Bernie to do something independently, and that seems intelligent to me.
It’s not about having “fondness” for the Democratic Party.
Did you notice that even in this year of the universally acknowledged shit candidates, 95% of all the prez votes still went to one of the 2 major party candidates?
I say the Democratic Party sucks — which is why we should take it over. It comes with hostages. I have no idea why almost all Americans can’t envision voting outside of the 2 party system, but it’s real.
Lead these suckers our way. Who cares about the respect of the “actual left” when we could take this sorry husk of a bullshit party over.
Do you REALLY think it will be easier to take the government than just one political party? The left is just in avoidance mode when they talk any other way than about getting power.
You are right the Democratic Party sucks. I joined Dem-exit after 40 years, including very involved activism and holding office. However, reforming this now completely corrupted and corporate owned party seems impossible. Why not try to reform the Republican party while you’re at it. But, hey listen… we will still need to work together… those in the “still trying to reform Democrats/ Bernie Our Revolution” group.. and those in the “third party movement, Greens, Socialists, whatevers”… one thing to support together is…Shutting off corporate owned MainStreamMedia… to build and support alternative media… to OCCUPY THE MEDIA! * please view our channel and POST YOUR OWN RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ALTERNATIVE MEDIA (Big or Small) https://youtu.be/d2xnms84N3c?
Well, good luck with that.
That’s a very good question and point. I’ve been ambivalent about the “reform the Democrats” v. “they can’t be changed, go 3rd party.” If they can’t be changed, how would we effect greater change yet?
That really is a good point.
I only joined the Ds to vote for Bernie. I had planned to quit as soon as H got the nom.
But why? I can basically be a disloyal member. The Dems could use a lot of disloyal members. Loud ones. Yes, if you try this neolib shit again, we will walk. Not trying this for more than one election is basically just giving up.
In any case for god’s sake we need a better 3rd party than the Greens. Anybody check out the Dem Socialists? I know they’ve had a lot more interest lately thanks to Chapo Trap House (who I love).
3rd parties willing to build coalitions in electoral situations would be SO SMART. Making membership not require leaving other parties would be SO SMART. Can they do it? Can they do power instead of just virtue?
I’m so glad I live in a state with open primaries and non-partisan registration.
Maisie:
Your opinion is impeccable!
“Why did the working people, who have always been our base, turn away?” –Sen. Manchin
A majority of “working people” — under any rational understanding of that somewhat vague term — who voted in the general election preferred Clinton to Trump. The key to getting this is remembering that people of color who work for a living are, in fact, working people.
Of course, folks who say “working people” in this context typically mean WHITE working people. Some of whom (just enough, unfortunately) “turned away” and voted for an openly racist white candidate enjoying the enthusiastic public support of white nationalists.
For some reason.
It’s looking more and more that the CIA leaks match what Congress heard in classified briefings last week.
This means that the leak is more than just the opinion of an anonymous official. It is the stance of the agency. Does that make it more likely to be true? Not necessarily, but I do have to question why the CIA would make such a claim unless they genuinely believed it. Otherwise, it would be foolish for them to antagonize the Republicans, who will control every branch of government.
It’s a sad state of affairs that U.S. taxpayers are paying all these bewilderingly stupid people, from the ‘Intelligence’ agencies to the theatrical charade of Congress, enormous amounts of money to bicker among themselves and jockey for the power that should belong to the people.
sorry for multiple posts, but a few more thoughts:
tucker carlson is the voice of reason? we’re all doomed.
tulsi gabbard also handed jake tapper his ass over US support for moderate decapitators (on CNN that’s considered “fake news”). related because the CIA “vetted” those folks. apparently beheading a palestinian tween wasn’t a blemish on their resumes. they must know what they’re doing or else castro wouldn’t have died at such at such a tender young age.
there have also been unhinged calls for knocking out russia’s power grid with supposedly already installed stuxnetish malware. assuming the claims of said “cyber” weapons are true and not intel dicks swinging in the wind, that means they’re willing to knock out an entire grid – hospitals, banks, etc. – based on blatant nonsense. just thought that would give a little more weight to the whole “consequences” thing.
The level of corruption in this country grows alarmingly. There is so much shit being thrown at us that we may never see the light again.
We have to laugh sometimes. Tweet from the great @vastleft:
vastleft
?@vastleft
I hope future elections between abhorrent candidates won’t be so shrouded in illegitimacy.
funny but true.
almost makes Blade Runner a documentary.
Juan Cole: No, America, it wasn’t Russia: You did it to Yourself
If you want to write off anonymous sources, then we should also ignore most of the material from Wikileaks.
Some people are really slow. You, for instance.
But slow could be your friend. Try reading Glenn’s piece again, really slowly, and see if you get closer to understanding it this time.
There is not that much there to “get”. Glenn doesn’t trust the CIA, Washington Post, or the Democratic Party. Real deep.
Should he trust them? Why?
Everyone has a bias. Everyone has an agenda. Do you think WikiLeaks is free from bias or agenda? Just because parties have a bias or agenda does not mean the information they put forward is always wrong. Without even getting into the issue of whether the CIA’s conclusion is accurate ( and we do not know what information they are relying upon), the fact that the CIA gave briefings indicating that the Russians were trying to help Trump has been reported by multiple outlets, and Trump’s transition team (who receives intelligence briefings) has responded by slamming the US intelligence agencies. I think Glenn’s rant against the post is more the product of his general distrust of the publication than the specific information that was conveyed here.
I am kind of gobsmacked about the fact that you don’t really address anything about the argument or evidence that the article offers.
Yeah? Well, everything you think you know is wrong–I was able to glean that just from your post above. Let alone some of your other “work” here.
Thanks Morpheus, but this isn’t the Matrix. The people on this site have a lot in common with Trump supporters.
“we should also ignore most of the material from Wikileaks.”
it was not leaked anonymously to Wikileaks; they know where it came from.
The Washington Post knows who their leakers are too. The difference is that what Wikileaks posted is evidence (actual documents), not hearsay.
Written documents are also hearsay unless you have testimony confirming the source and accuracy of the written record. You are still relying upon WikiLeaks to do their due diligence with respect to the source.
Written documents are not, under these circumstances, considered hearsay. They are not offered to prove the truth of the matters asserted therein.
The documents from Wikileaks speak for themselves. Of themselves, they can have no point of view or agenda tied to their publication; they just are. If their authenticity is not credibly challenged, they just are.
And no document published by Wikileaks has ever been successfully challenged as to its credibility and/or genuineness. Ever.
That’s right.
Yes, indeed. Assange stated simply that they were not from Russia.
The “CIA has concluded” article has already been debunked.
“The CIA has concluded in a secret assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump win the presidency, rather than just to undermine confidence in the U.S. electoral system, according to officials briefed on the matter.”
Wow, that’s a strong and exact statement.
However, The New York Times, reporting on the exact same CIA assessment, writes that the assessment panel only has a “high confidence” that Russia was involved, while Reuters, reporting on the same CIA assessment, writes “Intelligence agencies did not have specific intelligence showing the Kremlin directed the individuals to pass the hacked emails to WikiLeaks,” and also “A senior U.S. official said there remained minor disagreements among intelligence officials about the assessment because some questions are unanswered.”
OK… so which is it? Well, anything less than True is False, and the NYT and Reuters reporting invalidates the Huffington Post’s assertion, and renders it as False. So… is it then false propaganda to say that the CIA concluded that Russia intervened to help Trump win the 2016 USA federal election? Yes, it is.
Also, the USA House of Representatives just passed HR 6393, allowing funding to combat what it perceives to be Russian propaganda (though no examples of which information has been Russian propaganda have been given), and the EU parliament just passed a resolution to create “tools” to “counter Russian propaganda.”
So, both the USA and the EU have publicly declared that they are engaged in anti-Russia propaganda, which naturally means that allegations that come from the West and that are aimed towards Russia are non-trustworthy, by default, because the West has, amazingly, openly announced that it is conducting a disinformation campaign against Russia. What does that disinformation look like? Well, it looks just like this article’s claim that “The CIA has concluded in a secret assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election” – which, if people did a little research, would discover to be a False statement.
Exactly how anonymous was the source(s)? Journalists of the NYT and WP often have special connections to knowledgeable people in agencies of the U.S. government. The journalists know who the people are and generally how trustworthy they are, but their sources won’t leak any information unless they remain anonymous.
If the source of this information was truly anonymous, unknown to even the journalists, then I wonder how they would go about determining the authenticity of the leaker(s) and his or her information. I suppose the journalist(s) could ask penetrating questions about the agency the anonymous leaker(s) allegedly works for and how the leaked information was obtained, but it would still be risky to trust such a source of information.
However, the tips of one truly anonymous leaker, nicknamed ‘Deep Throat’ at the time, led Woodward and Bernstein to discover the Watergate scandal. And that ultimately led to the resignation of a U.S. president.
oh right, journalists like judith miller.
If you think the rampant granting of anonymity to “government officials” to promote their often self-serving agendas is akin to Deep Throat and Watergate, well, no.
Another amazing article by Glenn and OMG freaking fox is the only station that somewhat does proper journalism. This is really an alternative reality lol
Yup. Never thought I’d appreciate a Faux Noise segment. Least of all by Toady Carlson…
reply to some guy re: russian interference walks like/talks like a duck
When a story (with evidence) of election tampering (by the DNC)
was mostly subordinated to another story ( without evidence)
about election tampering (by Russia) …..
&
When a story about party incompetence in an election failure is subordinated to, well….that story about election tampering by Russia, again….
that’s a big duck
Just an observation…
From Glenn…
“So that’s the Democratic Party’s approach to the 2016 election. Those who question, criticize or are perceived to impede Hillary Clinton’s smooth, entitled path to the White House are vilified as stooges…”
the ONION’S take on it, from April 12, 2015: http://www.theonion.com/article/hillary-clinton-to-nation-do-not-fuck-this-up-for–38416
CIA’s equally truthful buddie across the pond chime in:
Broken or missing link.
Here it is from the Torygraph:
Head of MI6: Britain faces ‘fundamental threat to sovereignty from Russian meddling’
Huh. Just teased you about blockquotes, but I seem to be having link issues.
What goes around, comes around. ;-}
Thanks for filling in the missing piece.
Your link problem may have the same underlying cause as my blockquoting difficulty: pathetically embarrassing, ridiculously crappy commenting software.
From the Telegraph story:
I wonder how many poor schmucks (some of them maybe actually his agents) will be burned alive or beheaded by the mad salafists thanks to that brilliant little nugget.
C? Between these people and the Bond movies things are getting more chicken/eggish as time goes on.
Gert Yes. Who knew Russophobia could be so contagious. Someone really ought to come up with a Fake Vaccine. :-s
From the unaccounted secret services of a country in the grip of Russophobia…
This morning, former Congressman & Lt. Colonel of the United States Army, Allen West, posted this text to his 2.5 million Facebook followers over a picture of General James “Mad Dog” Mattis, shortly to be our Secretary of Defense:
Mona, please refer to Mattis by the name so many died for him to earn – Butcher of Fallujah. To do otherwise dishonours the dead (and the American soldiers traumatized by following his orders)
Many are going a bit crazy right now. I’m seeing reasonable people demand a recall election, stating they will never accept Trump as legitimate etc…because of the horror they rationally believe is to come.
Note: these are not pro-Hillary folks. They are, many of them, Muslims and African-Americans, who are deeply frightened and agitated. At the same time, some are sneering at “hyperbole and hysteria,” insisting everyone “calm down,” and insisting nothing that different is about to be. I know these latter are dead wrong, but am not certain how much of the anxiety is useful and proportionate.
quote”I know these latter are dead wrong, but am not certain how much of the anxiety is useful and proportionate.”
Says one who never lost everything during the financial meltdown who now depends on SS and Snap for survival at 72 yrs old. After seeing who Trump has already appointed to his cabinet, I’d submit anxiety is a massive fucking understatement.
You should re-read what she wrote:
At the same time, some are sneering at “hyperbole and hysteria,” insisting everyone “calm down,” and insisting nothing that different is about to be. I know these latter are dead wrong, …
The latter she referred to as being dead wrong are the people sneering at “hyperbole and hysteria,” .
I’d submit anxiety is a massive fucking understatement. — generalwarrant
Also, her point about the usefulness and proportionality of anxiety is apropos in that extreme anxiety, while it may be incredibly understandable, is not helpful if it is allowed to become so disproportionate that it overwhelms one’s ability to function. Somehow, like anger, it must be tamed and redirected toward those who would use it as a means of control. Not an easy task by any means, but one that is demonstrably necessary.
In this case, fight simply must be supreme over flight because too few have the latter as a viable option.
Michigan Congressman Justin Amash:
I just saw a WaPo spokesperson, on CBS, declare “Trump is going to view this [investigation] through a partisan lens no matter the result“.
Glen, it’s like this: they don’t need to prove anything to us. They just need to sell an idea to enough people so that the matter goes away.
The CIA killed Kennedy. Duh.
The CIA blew up innocent civilians in Europe for 40 years for propaganda purposes: Operation Gladio.
The CIA smuggled cocaine by the plane load.
The CIA hid Saudi hijackers from the FBI and allowed 9/11 to happen.
Fake evidence sold the Iraq war, because essentially they all look alike, so America might as well bomb them.
The Al Nusrah terrorists, supported by Turkish intelligence directly gassed women and children for a propaganda stunt in 2013.
Etc.
Take off the tin foil hat and explain the crazy theories you want us to subscribe to. Is this Flynn jr?
O/T
Watching a story on CNN right now regarding the historical voting record of Elliott County Kentucky.
Apparently they voted for Trump after voting for every Democratic presidential candidate for the last 144 years.
Yeah, the Dems lost because of the Ruskies, sexism & racism. Funny how the folks interviewed made no comments regarding or implying any of those ideologies.
They said that they felt she didn’t understand them and felt that Trump did sympathize with them.
Yea Dems, keep pushing the Russian threat for the next 4 years and see where it gets you.
They said that they felt she didn’t understand them and felt that Trump did sympathize with them.
Same in Ohio, including towns very near Columbus that voted for Obama. Twice.
Did you see this?
hey Glenn, really smart article, thank you. One problem: Tucker Carlson? I get it, it was about the DEM saying RT and cold war tropes, but Tucker Carlson. Why would I ever look at that guys asshole face or listen to his nonsense.? Rule #1 we go out and hit them in the mouth Rule #2 Fuck tucker carlson and every human in his direct lineage for making him. peace ooot
Adam (raised in an abandoned sound stage in Burbank) Schiff accuses Tucker Carlson of being a Kremlin stooge and then tells him to get work at RT.
Telling Fox News personalities they are Kremlin stooges is fucking FUNNY Blaine.
Additionally Schiff ducks Tucker’s Podesta specific email querys six, seven, eight times.
This is of course all part of the genuinely absurd bipartisan (D) (R) vendetta against Vlad the Bad while he all the while evacuates civilians from Aleppo and jokes about missing an opportunity to convince lead Administration and Capitol Hill Conspiracy Theorists that Russian Scientists have developed a functional teleportation device.
One of the bigger problems right now is people caring more about WHO is saying something, rather than WHAT is said.
In your objection you couldn’t be bothered to get around to what was said, thinking it was enough just to point out who was saying it…..so Thank You for being part of the problem.
Yup.
Totally agree with you. Fox or not the guys was making great point
glad you got to this. and quite surgically. i was also amused by how clapper is supposedly “17 intelligence agencies”.
So, we have a lot of fuss– demonstrated by a variety of individuals with a spectrum of motives — over “Russia’s interfering in our elections.”
Let’s say it’s all true. Nay, let’s postulate that Vladimir Putin personally gathered a room full of hackers and ordered them to snag John Podesta’s emails. Then, he gleefully sent them off to Wikileaks.
That would mean Putin is the reason Americans know what the DNC did in an attempt to crown Hillary and put up roadblocks to the Sanders campaign; Russia is why, if that’s what occurred, Team Hillary now cannot rant about how Sanders supporters are all fevered conspiracy theorists.
Debbie Wasserman Schultz stands revealed as a dishonest hack, as does Donna Brazile. This is bad why?
If true, Russia’s antics do not constitute interfering in a country’s democratic process in any way akin to the egregious nature and degree the CIA has “interfered” in myriad other nations’ democratic elections and the results of same.
The Democrats stupidly want the emails to be both innocuous and election-shattering at the same time.
Yup, absolutely: “Nothing to see here, but this is outrageous and cost Hillary Clinton the election!”
Imagine if we could see the emails of trumps 3 campaign managers. That would be awesome.
There is no need to play puppets, Mona. You are crapflooding by dumping posts to yourself.
nuf said is so boring
“nuf said is so boring”
And you are an “analogical” thinker, alright …
Reply.
I take that you think I’m Mona as a compliment.
“I take that you think I’m Mona as a compliment.”
That should demonstrate that Maise and -Mona- are not the same …
you just flood the place, like you’ve done for 10 “wretched” years.
[blush] Thank you Maisie. While I don’t invariably agree with you, you are very smart and a moral person, so the sentiment is reciprocated.
“[blush] Thank you Maisie. While I don’t invariably agree with you, you are very smart and a moral person, so the sentiment is reciprocated.”
and the band plays on …
or is that LP stuck on the same track.
Ok. That’s funny.
I would bet large against this assumption. :-)
most pointless conspiracy theory ever
“most pointless conspiracy theory ever”
Which “conspiracy theory” is the least pointless, as in most believable?
I expect your “analogical” mind will have to churn this question.
Do kernels ever just like roll out of your ear?
There isn’t a forum or board that doesn’t have a loon who sees trolls/sockpuppets everywhere. Nut said is almost fulfilling a social function.
“almost fulfilling a social function.”
Your inability to not project is what has always given your sock-puppetry away. That and your character assassination, appeal to authority, fallacy of bifurcation, …
the list is long, -Mona-.
@nut said: zzzzzzzzzz….
what was that song in the lego movie, “Everyone is Mona!”
It’s not a mere assumption; he’s negatively fixated on me in a rather disturbing way and accuses myriad accounts of being me.
The suggestion exists that the RNC was hacked as well… but only DNC information was released. Do you really believe there was nothing untoward found there as well? Reverse the parties involved and think about how you’d feel.
If any of that is true, it would mean Putin is moving Russia further in the direction of the US in terms of interfering in the political processes of other countries. Of course, it’s hard to imagine it could reach that level.
C’mon Mona: it’s just not the same when we do it, y’know?
Besides, Mossadeq was ‘communist’, so there…
The ‘bad part’ involves either selective hacking to obtain information, or selective release of hacked information, to tilt the election to favor one political candidate over another. Do we really want Russia influencing the outcome of our political elections? Of course, so far no real proof has been presented that Russia hacked information in order to change the outcome of the last election. This not surprising as such information is likely classified. Presumably, the in-depth investigation and report that have been ordered by President Obama will provide some clarification on this matter.
Unpersuasive. What — really, what? — could have been hacked and released about Trump that would have mattered? He wasn’t wrong when he said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose support.
In any event, this “interference,” if it happened, is simply nothing like what the CIA has done in other countries.
craigsummers is asserting that the information contained in an article published at Motherboard (Vice) constitutes “evidence” that official Russia is responsible for hacking the DNC (and maybe other targets — I’m too lazy to chase it all down).
So, let’s scroll down the cited article and take a look at the purported evidence:
Mere assertion, perhaps appeal to authority.
With the possible exception of reused encryption keys (and then depending entirely on what kind(s) of keys and the circumstance of their use) none of that is persuasive, even if it’s true. The world of hackers and crackers operates an Internet-wide, 24/7/365 exchange, advice, sharing and cooperation network (and competition as well, of course), in which all of these things are widely distributed, modified, passed along, etc.
This is so common that almost every popular domain is likely to have associated “mistype domains” to siphon off traffic that results from typos. Try typing, say, “micorsoft[dot]com” into your address bar, for instance (only if you have good anti-malware protection running). Internet bad guys do this because there are lots of ways to make money, collect valuable user information, etc. by poaching. traffic this way.
Of course, the fact that people do this all the time doesn’t mean that Evil Russian Hackers™ didn’t do it, too, but nothing here qualifies as evidence that they did.
Well, the server at that address is now offline, which makes perfect sense no matter who was running it. The traffic hitting it since the IP was published would likely have overwhelmed the server itself and clogged the pipes to and from the ISP sufficiently that they would have turned it off even if the server operator did not.
However we can determine some things. That IP resolves by geolocation to San Jose, California. It appears to belong to a newly-formed ISP, Choopa, LLC, registered with the California Secretary of State:
Business Filings, Inc. is, obviously, a company that provides such services as functioning as “agent for service of process” for other business entities. If I were tracking down that notorious “long-known APT 28 so-called X-Tunnel command-and-control IP address,” I’d certainly want to talk to Choopa and I’d start with their registered agent and the CA SecState. I don’t seen any indication that has been done.
However, letting my finger do the walking (you can look it up, kids), I quickly discovered a link between Choopa and a company called Vultr, which provides cloud-based storage and other services. Vultr may be a parent or otherwise affiliated with Choopa, but I don’t see either entity mentioned in the cited article, so I have to assume nobody bothered to check. It’s not as though that would be hard to do:
Vultr Holdings, LLC
14 Cliffwood Ave
Suite 300, Metropark South
Matawan, NJ 07747
vultr[dot]com
Oops. Didn’t properly close a blockquote. The block of text beginning with “That IP address resolves to the long-established (founded 1999) French ISP, OVH. . .” is mine.
Nice job, Doug. (And yeah, it’s sooo hard to format here.) Also see naked capitalism.
It sounds like anyone with an agenda could’ve been trying to help Trump. I’m sure there are alt-right hackers all over the US and Europe. Why wouldn’t any of them be a suspect?
You’re probably not supposed to ask questions like that. ;^)
Well. I’m sure American “investigators” simply assume the vast majority of them are “useful idiots” or “Kremlin stooges” despite the fact any one, two or even all of them could have compromised targeted email servers with zero nation state support.
Your defenestration tool, while blockquote-challenged, seems to be more than adequately calibrated. ;-}
So Republicans have a history of using fake news and voters suppression and the very people who build most if the voting machines are Republicans. So this gang of cheating b*****ds are perfectly capable of hacking a chuffin server themselves… Especially when we know Clinton herself has been stupid enough to use a private server, making herself vulnerable to hacking. Why would they need Russian help?
This is beyond ridiculous. And this all about Syria. The Clinton clique wants to overthrow the Assad government at all cost. They failed because, despite the fact Assad was not, to put it politely, liked by the Syrians, he is still better than the head choppers that Washington decided to support, wittingly or not. Long story short, the population is behind the Syrian army, Aleppo is about to fall back into government control and every day a new town, a new city, joins the reconciliation centre ran by Russia. In other words, the US lost this war and Russia is back as a power to be dealt with.
Beyond Trump, there’s a fracture in the US between two groups: those who think they should just pull out, accept a multipolar world and perhaps reassert they leadership in trade and industry instead; and those who will continue this madness until the end even if it destroys us all. To complicate things, the presidential face of the sane option is an absolute mad man while at the same time the maddest option of continual war is fronted by a seemingly rational woman…
What we are witnessing is an American civil war.
Pierre Omidyar @pierre tweets…
“The President-elect of the United States publicly accusing the CIA of lying or incompetence is such a gift to America’s enemies”
Hmm…
Democrats accusing the FBI of interfering was quite a gift, too, in those terms. And round we go…
So many silver linings in the Trump cloud, for example all these dumbfucks revealing themselves as even bigger dumbfucks.
funny! But the lying and incompetence of the cia has always been a gift to the enemies of America.
This is what Barack Obama gets for not prosecuting cia, torture, bush, cheney, and wallstreet. Instead BO decides the people are the enemy, signs the NDAA (carl levin) and sets up the secret spy network. And let’s not forget hellary’s involvement in doing the same in Libya as dumya did in iraq. And let’s not forget that hellary armed the protesters to attempt the same in syria.
US sends more forces to escalate insurgency in Syria: Analyst
http://presstv.com/Detail/2016/12/10/497305/US-Syria-war-Daesh-Keith-Preston
Since both accusations are demonstrably true and can be easily supported by mountains of evidence, I’d say it’s a gift to American citizens, even if it’s Trump saying it. ;^)
Pierre Omidyar is of Iranian descent. The irony.
Bingo.
He’s also a Buddhist, a follower of the Dalai Lama in the Tibetan tradition.
Before he speaks again of “enemies,” perhaps he should consider the words of the Indian teacher, Atisha, who brought the Dharma to Tibet:
I imagine Buddhists are as adept at contorting their doctrines when “the real world demands it” as Christians and Jews so ably do.
No doubt. And it’s an excellent idea, IMHO, to give them plentiful opportunities to either adhere to those doctrines or demonstrate the contortions for us.
Agreed.
Is there a word for not being surprised at all, but at the same time “Wow!”?
Because…Wow! His whole twitter feed is 10 tons of crazy. Holy shit. He makes Mackey look credible by comparison.
Does this person really need their voice amplified?
It must be weird to want to control and persuade and manipulate, but to be so ham-handed and socially and logically unpersuasive that you need surrogates.
Is it fair now to call the Washington Post fake news? Jesus wept.
All these people have a problem with is the fact that Wikileaks didn’t help their side. Ethics have been replaced by the ancillary benefits of selling your soul.
I don’t trust the FBI or the CIA any more than I trust Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton.
Which is to say, not at all.
Sad that people seem loathe to leave the binary thinking of Republican/Democrat, when it’s obvious the entire government is a bunch of mendacious slimeballs who serve the Deep State and manipulate the public into (being cynically apathetic or) siding with one aisle or the other.
The fact that people really want either Trump or Clinton to be vindicated, when both people are moral reprobates and pathological liars, is a remarkable testimony to the power of PR to successfully lipstick the ugliest pigs America can offer.
The Democrats, Republicans, FBI and CIA are all good for nothing, duplicitous servants of the corrupt elite – inflicting their internecine factional bullshit on the populace and selling it as democracy.
Fuck them all, and to hell with partisanship. America’s sheeplike citizenry is apparently irredeemably propagandized, arguing over which color of collar the wolf that devours them should be wearing – rather than demanding all the wolves be removed.
that’s healthy.
What bothers me most is the insistance of Adam Schiff that we hear and believe whatever he demands. That is irresponsible, unamerican, arrogant, and frankly evil. This secret we-know-better-than-you-so-just-trust-us crap coming from the USG is a clear and present danger to an open source democracy.
You seem to trust Trump, which I think is as unhealthy as trusting the other aisle.
This Russian conspiracy is one of the nuttiest and scariest manifestation of Democratic paranoia and overall lunacy.
Another gift from Hillary.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Thank you for the Podesta Pizzagate emails, whoever you are!
It was Anne Chovie and Bill Loney. With a Divine assist from Cheeses Crust.
Meanwhile, in an alternate universe:
Link doesn’t work.
Looks like they deleted the tweet. If it was good I hope someone took a screencap.
Darn. And I’m just tired enough, still sick enough (some lingering viral crap) and have posted enough tweets to have forgotten what this one said.
Might as well get that pomtini now…. :-s
It remains baffling how against anonymous claims you are for a website that has a feature section called “Unofficial Sources.”
… the Barbarian?
Far closer to O’Brien, sadly.
You’re at least as low as 3rd place in analogical reasoning skills, Conan.
I feel like you picked my pocket for that one.
I mean, we see plenty of stoopid here, but Conan is possibly winning first place today.
Ad hominem filler. Check.
You must enjoy being baffled or you’d try to research enough to become less baffled.
Below is a primer for you. Took me 2.5 seconds to locate it and bring it up. There’s more where that came from if you apply yourself to finding it and reading it.
The Intercept is developing editorial standards for using anonymous sources 8/7/15
“In recent months, he has been critical of both The New York Times and The Sunday Times for shielding sources who provided anonymous critiques.”
Obviously what I’m referring to. The new rules and that criticism seem rather funny given what the Intercept was up to before them. Perhaps you might want to research that, in turn? Some of the same criticism the Intercept used to receive it is now giving out.
I hope that Russia’s faith in American electoral democracy will help to temper the cynicism of the average American voter. Turnout in the election hit a 20 year low as voters, convinced that Goldman Sachs would win no matter which of the two nominal parties won, stayed home in droves.
Russia has attempted to rekindle voter interest by making a statement that the winner does matter; elections are not just a sham conducted to provide an illusion of democracy. I’m not optimistic this will work, however. I took a quick peek at some representative mainstream news sites and the big story today is that Donald Trump will remain the executive producer for Celebrity Apprentice.
Since the Russians are the only ones who care about the outcome, why not give them the right to vote in American elections? This would reduce their incentive to manipulate the news, since it is a lot easier to simply stand in line for several hours on voting day than to remote hack into an e-mail server. Americans, knowing that someone who followed the elections closely was making an informed choice, could stay home in November and enjoy a bit of extra time with their families. So everyone would be a winner.
1hr ago
US President Barack Obama’s call for an investigation into the role Russia allegedly played in bringing GOP nominee Donald Trump into power is “nothing more than transparent and very blatant, political fraud,” an analyst says.
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/12/10/497319/Obams-call-for-probing-Trump-is-fraud
Wonderfully wry, as usual.
“Since the Russians are the only ones who care about the outcome, why not give them the right to vote in American elections?”
that is incorrect – almost everyone outside of the U$A cares about the results of the election as there are real consequences for us (unlike your good selves who not only seem to not know what the hell is going on … but actively do not want to know … and for whom there seems indifference towards the differences in the candidates).
in your defence, the possibility exists that the good citizens of the U$A already know that their vote makes no difference (either way – the wold is still run by Goldman Sacks and friends) and that our external enthusiasm is misplaced and wasteful.
never-the-less, i have been arguing for several years that everyone on the planet should qualify to vote in the U$ elections … kinda like a democracy type model where those affected get to vote (not that the recent history of the U$A indicates anything close to democracy)
… what about this: maybe the rest of the world could run a candidate in the U$ elections (and be involved in the primaries) … then there might at least emerge – from the steaming pile of candidates – something other than Clinton Vs Trump (or the next iteration of the same no choice election).
When it walks like a duck and talks like a duck……
It seems to me that Motherboard comes close enough. And it did it months ago.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/all-signs-point-to-russia-being-behind-the-dnc-hack
more restated propaganda?
Hey, every security service wants a big gov contract.
If it takes another country to reveal the facts of political candydates in the american democracy, why is that a problem?
btw- i just got this deal on a bridge that rakes in a mint in toll money and i’m willing to share the income for the right price, interested?
The CIA has demonstrated time and time again, that hey are uncontrolled, and act in manners that are the 180 degree exact opposite of what is good for America. Who do they work for?
I agree with JFK, “break the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwWb5fCeS_A
Sadly, it was probably the CIA the broke Kennedy into a thousand pieces.
LOL.
What made bias evident in the Wapo and NYT smear pieces is that they identified Hayden as a Bush official, as if he never served recently under the Democrat administration, supposedly enhancing his believability. That old adage, that you’re probably guilty of what you vehemently accuse others of without proof, comes to mind when clearly mendacious Dee State figures are suddenly heralded as neutral founts of truth. Fake News, yeah.
Bushes, Clintons, same population-reduction advocating, “Voodoo Economics”-rejecting (and if you agree with the sentiment you only prove the point), immigration reform-promoting, ACA-advocating, progressive leftists. The only difference is that progressive Dems’ confederates the Rockefeller Republicans are referred to as “neocon” (“neo-,” i.e., ‘new-,’ ‘improved-,’ ‘lefty anodyne-‘), and for a reason; the latter is, on record, Trotskyism brought by Bill Kristol’s father, Irving Kristol, into the U.S. via Mexico City in the 1950s.
Here’s Rockefeller Republican neocon Mitt Romney at a PP fundie with Nicki Nichols Gamble:
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/0*ur5kniQuYBwe8p73.jpg
One side of the aisle woke up in 2015-2016. Americans are still waiting for the clueless progressive left to stop re-electing the dark occultist Nancy Pelosi.
Hayden looks like another dweeb who got beaten regularly in JrH for being a dick.
He and Ass Carter,the revenge of the dweebs,And Clapper is a ringer for yoda.
On a parallel note, the recounts (of the vote) are confounding the true picture of what actually happen on voting day. Trump set the stage. He invited Russia to hack Hillary. He also claimed it was a rigged system. He doesn’t feel that way anymore because it appears the rigging worked. Hillary and every democrat has acted honorably despite the fact that Trump would have been impossible had the rigging not turned out in his favor.
The PE tried to stop the recounts for which I believe the early votes (which may be Trump’s issue to claim “millions of illegal votes were cast”) were largely not counted, i.e. quickly disqualified or spoiled.
Given that Mitch McConnell politicized the intelligence he was aware of in September by claiming it was a political move, it is pretty clear that the RNC’s strategy was to allow this all to happen with the hope that they could manipulate Trump’s ego into their submission. Just look at how many campaign promises Trump has already broken, particularly with the Carrier deal.
If we cannot verify our election result to assure the public and the PE is working diligently against that democratic principle, then surely there is a lot more to this election that was won by the Russians with the GOP sitting on their hands with gleeful hope to make the working and middle classes pay. Those campaign donations have already been repaid with most of Trump’s appointments. The swamp that Trump spoke of has changed considerably … and not for the better, nor for the fools who may have put him in office on election day.
306-232.Weep.
Steal. It works in the USA.
Yes,US steel,and Donald Trump.
And it was totally rigged against him,but he beat the bastards!
I think he has great possibilities.
Trump never denied it’s a rigged system; in fact he won despite it being rigged.
Yeah, but he won’t challenge the votes. I wonder why.
Because he has no reason to challenge his win over a rigged system.
We don’t need Russia to interfere with our elections. We’re doing a marvelous job on our own.
I appreciate your tacitly acknowledging the tactics of the DNC during the primaries, One4All. This is genuinely too important of an issue to subordinate to partisan special pleading.
The corrupt primaries (both sides) were co-opted by the media. ALL media. They couldn’t take their eyes off the buffoon that remained popular despite outrageous episodes, including today, yesterday and 11 years ago. I lost respect for the DNC prior to Hillary’s so called win, but I also lost respect for the average American who is so easily spoon fed their thoughts and beliefs. Shooting someone on 5th Avenue was a moment that comes to mind for that event.
My sole issue is that there is no way to prove the vote in the US, just as there is no way to make an Evangelical take a moral stand. This is not partisan, but became that way when the GOP failed to work with the DNC on investigating outside influences in the election. Why didn’t we hear any trepidation in the GOP or Trump that they might be the next ones hacked ? That wasn’t a worry in the slightest and for good reason.
If the GOP can prove they were not hacked, as we have been told by their spokespeople, then let’s have it and prove that the DNC are sore losers. It’s pathetic that it was the GOP that was the partisan group that prevented stronger actions and even more repulsive that the Donald would even try to stop the recounts. He had a chance to bolster his claims that he won, even if millions of illegals voted. Instead he did everything he could to make sure we would have to swallow this false election without a closer look. We need reform and then a new election, with both of these candidates rejected for having caused the problems. How is that the States control a Federal election ? That’s inconsistency that only leads to a haphazard result.
This must be turning point for both parties. With Trump blowing his horn over little wins like Carrier while he loses the war he declared in the campaign, even the dumazzes that voted for him will smarten up to a progressive level for the people and not the corporations.
That comment borders on insanity. You should seriously consider seeking professional help.
I find it very interesting that Democrats are yelling, and accusing Russia of influencing the election, especially since they are the party that was infiltrated by Soviet Communists back in the 1940’s & on. Not to mention, these were the same sore losers that refused to acknowledge the wikileaks material because the had no proof of it’s authenticity. I think this tells all we need to know about the democratic party members. The old saying ” The smeller is the feller” comes to mind.
Thank you Glenn! It’s so refreshing to have an actual journalist in the field of journalism in an election year like this
The hypocrisy is simply astounding. EIGHT YEARS of nonsense against the current admin along with tens of millions of dollars spent investigating Clinton’s emails and you have the nerve to say that allegations against Trump are unfounded simply because they come from a source that could be charged with very serious crimes for speaking out?
You must be a special kind of stupid.
The last sentence says it all. It is a strange politic today where facts don’t matter. Wapo and others are echoed through the world media, it is an attempt to create a perception on baseless and dangerous accusations, the reverberations could easily lead to war. Why? Avarice. The whole system is a train wreck built on lies and secrecy, how do we start or create a new system of governance while trapped in this state? Organize.
Is Joe Biden threatening war with Russia, this was reported back in October? “Washington is preparing measures in response to the actions of Russian hackers accused of hacking American politicians’ computers. This was stated by US Vice President Joe Biden today, who threatened that Russian President Vladimir Putin “will know it” when an attack happens.
Biden remarked that Washington will choose a time and place for a “response” which will have “the greatest impact.” “We are sending a message,” Biden said in an interview with NBC. During the interview, he accused Russia of hacking attacks on the computers of American politicians.
The US Vice President did not disclose the details of the impending operation, but did state that Russian leader Vladimir Putin “will know it when it happens.”
“It will be at the time of our choosing and under the circumstances that have the greatest impact,” Biden added. Answering whether the public would learn before hand about Washington’s response to Moscow’s supposed actions, the politician said: “I hope not.”
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/10/us-cyber-attack-imminent-biden.html
American politicians really are the world’s biggest hypocrites. They get caught, either failing in their Constitution required oversight duties of the alphabet agencies, or more likely actively approving those very same alphabet agencies lawful capacity to “hack” (i.e. engage in warrantless surveillance of everything from e-mails to phone calls to video, on basically every nation’s politicians, including allied politicians, much less Russian ones which they most assuredly are from Putin to every Russian official subject to official US economic sanctions) and then somebody like VP Biden acts like it’s the biggest crime of the century if the Russians or anyone else does it to US politicians or the American system of “governance”.
Total and utter delusion hypocritical bullshit. This is an example of precisely why the USA has little to no moral standing in the world–because we’ve become the precise thing we’ve always rhetorically derided–autocratic, proto-fascist, oligarchic borderline banana republics where most of the trappings of “democratic accountability” work on double standards for the powerful or aren’t applicable to them in the first instance–from the courts and the rule of law, to the economic system.
That’s not even mentioning the ridiculous levels of hypocrisy it takes for any American citizen, much less one of its politicians to take offense at the idea of someone ratfucking or interfering with an American election.
Would anyone be interested in a running list of the 100% verifiable instances of the USA or its agents actually assassinating, removing, honey-potting, destroying a foreign politician and/or interfering or rigging of a foreign nation’s elections, or quite simply making war on them to overthrow their regimes when we don’t like what they are doing?
Anyone? Any moderately informed American knows precisely how many, when and how. And you don’t see anything remotely resembling a majority of American citizens, much less its politicians, holding themselves or any of its agents to any kind of consistent standard about interfering in another nation’s affairs. In fact quite the opposite. And that’s the sign of a nation in very deep trouble.
So what it really all boils down to is that a majority of US politicians will lie, cheat, steal and murder (or more likely order other deluded souls to do it on their behalf) because of inherent corruption, a total lack of a coherent moral worldview, and the very really borderline clinical-sense levels of delusion they have about America or its “culture” (as young and fucked up as it is) and that it is somehow “exceptional” or superior to all the other 6.5 billion human beings on the planet and their cultures and governing processes.
Unfuckingbelievable is what it is.
In other words, no matter what horrible horrific shit America’s leaders visit upon the rest of the world “it’s okay if you are America” (IOIYAA), but by definition if another nation does what we do to them or anyone else we choose, it’s the fucking highest international crime ever conceived according to America’s leadership class.
I can’t wait until the wheels really come off America, because it is literally going to be open season on the pelts of US politicians for their total lack of coherent moral bearing, hypocrisy, and self-importance.
And that’s assuming it is proved the “Russians” did have something to do with it.
If it turns out they didn’t, then that means American politicians are so deluded they will lie in the most consequential way (with war with a nuclear armed super power) on the line, for some petty partisan advantage or desire to continue to attempt to perpetuate their delusion dream of hegemony all over the globe.
And that won’t end well either.
“…….If it turns out they didn’t, then that means American politicians are so deluded they will lie in the most consequential way (with war with a nuclear armed super power) on the line, for some petty partisan advantage or desire to continue to attempt to perpetuate their delusion dream of hegemony all over the globe…..”
Pure bullshit. If Biden is wrong then the intelligence is wrong. I doubt Biden is going to lie if he knows Russia had nothing to do with the theft of DNC emails. In fact, just the opposite. If the VP of the US is accusing the Russians, then that’s more likely the Russians did hack the DNC based on intelligence which the Vice President of The US is privy to. It’s a big deal, rr. It has nothing to do with what the US did in South America in the 1960s or Iran in 1953.
it’s heartwarming to see that craigsummers hates the russians more than the democrats. just a selfless country-before-party move.
craigsummers hates russians and loves the cia so much that he’s going with the democrats on this one. Now that’s a real american.
Craig loves any US establishment as long as it feverishly defends Israel, at any cost.
Not much to fear from Trump, in that depeartment. Bibi sent his bestest wishes very, very quickly…
“……..Not much to fear from Trump, in that depeartment……”
That would be my initial assessment, Gert. However, Trump may actually be able to put some pressure on Israel that the normal Democrats and Republicans won’t for political reasons. Trump will likely be more difficult to deal with than for Israel than HRC anyway. WE will have to wait and see.
Thanks.
A racist like Trump is likely to support other racists, Craig.
Trump is likely to go ‘European alt-right': not disavowe one’s antisemitic following while being fervently pro-Zionist. See every Far Right populist European party, except Jobbik.
Trump is bad news for Muslims, including Palestinians, trust me…
“…….Trump is bad news for Muslims, including Palestinians, trust me…….”
I’m not sure why I don’t……
It’s a big deal to you, because you are a hypocrite. It’s not a particularly big deal to me, not personally and not as a citizen, because you will never be able to establish “causally” (given the myriad motivations and reasons that cause an American or any other human being to cast a particular vote) that these leaks altered a US election. In fact, it most certainly did not sway the popular vote which according to last stats Hillary Clinton was up about 2.8 million votes (or approx. 2% of votes cast).
More importantly, you can’t even conceive of the idea that if you take the position that it is politically or morally impermissible to do certain things to others, and you do them anyway to others and/or heaven forfend have them done to you by another, that you have any coherent logical or moral foundation to complain–it’s the dictionary definition of hypocrisy.
That’s why someone like you can’t understand the immorality of something like torture, much less the fundamental ineffectiveness of something like torture.
Because quite frankly you’re morally bankrupt and not very smart.
Now that’s just my opinion of you, and you are free to have one of me that is precisely the same.
But how about let’s not destroy this thread me telling you to fuck off and you reciprocating for the next 10 comments?
In fact I’m quite pleased that you’ve suddenly after this many years learned how to link to a source. Genuinely.
But I’d prefer not to have a fight with you on any topic related to morality because I already know the type of human being you are–you are precisely an IOIYAA uber alles sort of faux patriot hypocrite–and somebody that I will likely never agree with, nor you likely with me.
rrheard
“…..It’s a big deal to you, because you are a hypocrite. It’s not a particularly big deal to me, not personally and not as a citizen, because you will never be able to establish “causally” (given the myriad motivations and reasons that cause an American or any other human being to cast a particular vote) that these leaks altered a US election. In fact, it most certainly did not sway the popular vote which according to last stats Hillary Clinton was up about 2.8 million votes (or approx. 2% of votes cast)…….”
It may not have altered the election in the least, but that is not the point is it rr. The point is that the Russians did interfere (allegedly) in a US election. Personally based on the information available (Greenwald not withstanding), I think they did interfere. That is a big deal to a lot of Americans who took the time to vote and who had a stake in the outcome in one way or another. It’s more than a little self-centered that you don’t give a shit because of your anti-American viewpoint. But that is so typical for the radical left – self centered and self focused (and anti-American to the core).
Most of your post is nothing but personal attacks which I don’t pay much attention to. DocHollywood puts you to shame on personal attacks. You are just an average personal attacker (at best).
Finally, do you really think I give a shit if I “destroy” the thread responding to you – and why is responding to someone destroying a thread? Have at it and sue me if you must.
Yawwwwwwwnnnnnnn.
I voted, I have a stake in the outcome, and none of that changes that YOU or anybody else can’t establish as a function of simple “causation” that even if these hacks and their release were directly attributable to Russia, that it changed the election result one way or the other. To establish that causal link, at least for non-morons unlike you who understand what causation was, you’d have to survey every single voter in every swing state and ask them if the singular deciding factor that swayed them to vote one way or another was attributable to something contained in one of the leaks. And more importantly, that was disclosed, wasn’t true or accurate. Otherwise what you’re suggesting is people voted based on what was true–but you or whomever didn’t like the fact human beings gave that true disclosures whatever weight they chose. Which would be the most anti-democratic thing I’ve ever heard of.
I’ll repeat this again for the dumb people like you reading this thread, I love my country, but I’m honest about its hypocrisy unlike you. I expect it to be better, unlike you. I will not call a Jack of Hearts a Two of Diamonds, just because people like you or anybody else doesn’t like it, because you know what, I’m not a hypocrite and can evaluate acts of human beings in light of fundamental principles regardless of your national affiliation or motivation.
Speaking of name calling, is that supposed to be some insult or conversation killer to call someone “radical left”? Sort of like calling them a “commie” or “pinko” because they don’t subscribe to your morally vapid hypocrisy in all things? If so I wear it as a badge of honor compared to somebody as morally rudderless and unprincipled as you.
So says the big ball of human navel lint who just recently learned a skill all 6th graders possess and ability to link to his sources. And someone who refers to people who don’t agree with him as “anti-American” or “radical-left” which appear to be defined as “anybody who doesn’t sniff the same shit stained faux patriotic pants that Craig Summers likes to wear on his head like a dunce cap as his singular life’s mission.”
I swore an oath to protect and defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic, and I take that oath seriously. If Russia can be proved to have violated international law (and get this–they aren’t subject to US law) then hold them accountable accordingly and proportionally. But this faux patriotic chest thumping bullshit, particularly in light of America’s long-standing well documented history of doing precisely the same thing, and way worse, to people to poor and powerless to defend themselves, just means to me “what comes around goes around.” And maybe we should think long and hard as a nation about what that means when we go around fucking in other people’s domestic affairs.
Like I said, I wear the scorn of human beings like you as a badge of honor. Not that you’d understand the first thing about honor, or morality, or logic, or foundational principles, much less how much of a hypocrite people like you are, and how that is destroying this nation.
You don’t believe Donald Trump is the response to what you are saying?
Whatever you think of him,he is that response,as some fat bastard noted,,”He’s a giant f*ck you to the system!”
Response to what? You think Donald Trump isn’t above lying, hypocrisy, cheating, posturing or risking a confrontation with other nations? If you don’t I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that issue, and hope that you’re right and I’m wrong.
But nothing in Donald Trump’s life, words, personal morals or actions would make me trust him with a lemonade stand much less the presidency of the United States of America. But it is what it is, he is the POTUS elect, I believe he won lawfully and as per the rules applicable to both he and Clinton, and I’m prepared to live with that while working against aspects of his agenda and presidency as are lawfully available to me, and civil disobedience if lawful avenues are closed by whomever.
I also believe that when push comes to shove that a majority of the people and institutions of this nation are basically decent and strong enough on balance not to let a Trump, or a Clinton or the alphabet agencies or anybody else in a position of power in this nation, to do something monumentally stupid like spark up a hot war with Russia or any other nuclear armed nation. And I hope to doG I’m right about that or our problems are much much larger and global species threatening than cuts to Social Security payments in America or whatever other shit the GOP has cooked up for us in the future.
I agree with you dahoit, but he is still an idiot. It makes no difference to who Trump is. He is still a fucking idiot.
Beautiful.
From my (outside) PoV the US doesn’t just lack moral standing, it is also feared because of a perceived lack of morals on the I’nal stage, a delusional self-image and a ruthless pursuit of self-interest by its ruling ‘elites’ , to the detriment of anyone standing in the way, including its own citizenry (who have my sympathy, broadly speaking).
+10.
Doesn’t apply to Russia though, right? Who is supporting a war in their perceived area of influence right now because Ukraine was lost to the west?
Hey people craigsummers would never support a country who supported a war in their perceived area of influence. Come on now.
Craig supports endless wars of attrition waged agains the Palestinans, aided and abetted by its generous benefactor, That Force for All Good, the US.
Of course Israel is only acting in self-defence, it goes w/o saying. And ‘the Jews were there first’, ditto…
“…….Hey people craigsummers would never support a country who supported a war in their perceived area of influence……”
Irrelevant Vic. Currently Russia is supporting and participating in a war in Eastern Ukraine because Ukrainians rose up and ousted their long time masters.
hello glenn: you’ve made a big and decent effort to bring some insightful comments to this issue. i appreciate it. but it seems to me you, too, are too close to the outcome and too close to some of the operators to be unbiased.
it’s unfortunate that so many commentators have taken sides in the game and have used their talent to disguise their bias while warning the rest of us to be diligent. like i said, i appreciate your comments, but i’m more worried that you have chosen to support a sleazeball and selfish opportunist (in ‘all CAPS’) who will have to depend on the CIA and FBI for critical intelligence to make important decisions for the country. i wonder how these field workers and decision makers will view the guy at the top who thinks he knows more than they do and who will be way too busy with all his ‘side adventures’ to pay much attention to assess their conclusions.
i was hoping for a president who took the job seriously, not one who will look to hannity and ingraham for advice and counsel. perhaps this is OK with you but i don’t think it will get snowden back in the country any sooner, although he will have much better chances of returning with a friend of putin in the white house.
It’s that time again, Bernie naifs: your NY Times Digital Subscriptions are up for renewal. Let the Times (“All the News That’s Fit to Print–For You”) know you much appreciated how relentlessly they deliberately marginalized your Democratic candidate, by keeping your subscriptions current.
Thank DNC Bernie for his endorsement of Hillary Clinton, too. Two peas in a pod.
Yet another false flag attack to keep our eyes off the actual problems with the election: that it was an INSIDE job, and that the states now are BLOCKING our ability to verify and recount the election to cover their asses because THEY STOLE the election with the software used to count the votes- from companies that are tied to the republican party- and they claim the software is proprietary and won’t let us investigate it…..
LIARS, ALL of them. Welcome to the US of Dystopia…. RIGHT NOW, NOT in the future.
Mona won’t answer this question (or can’t). Maybe someone else will to my satisfaction. Here is evidence originally linked from a Mackey article about possible Russian hacking of the DNC. Thomas Rid has credibility. There are lots of skeptics below the line.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/all-signs-point-to-russia-being-behind-the-dnc-hack
There is tons of evidence from multiple independent sources linking Russia to the DNC hacks. There is little doubt that they are behind it. We established this back in July.
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/07/russian_hack_of.html
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a49791/russian-dnc-emails-hacked/
First your source relies on Crowdstrike. The head of CrowdStrike is a member of the Atlantic Council, which is vehemently anti-Russia and funded in part by the Pentagon. The links from CrowdStrike point to NO PROOF, rather instead point to pages more marketing and sales. The Atlantic Council itself published a paranoid white paper about Russian aggression without facts, and get this, then recommended to Poland what American made weapons should buy. It was a sales brochure. Crowdstrike is selling its services by pimping the Russian threat and by pimping that they are the go-to company for cyber security–more later on them.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/images/publications/Arming_for_Deterrence_web_0719.pdf
Here is the thing which everybody forgets. Somebody used phishing to gain access to Podesta’s password. SecureWorks claimed that this indicated a group called Fancy Bear, a Russian intel affiliated group. Let’s step back a moment. Phishing is one of thee easiest and most used techniques used to gain access to a various accounts. I would bet (and win it) if I claimed that literally everybody in the United States has received some phishing email. Yet, again some commercial group uniquely identified a Russian group using by its use of phishing.
In summary, the security around the DNC servers could have been hacked by clever high schoolers. Or as Trump claims, some fat guy on his bed.
But a point that goes to whether people have any sort of skepticism or incredulity. Crowdstrike claims they found files with cyrillic in them. So here we have what is Russian hackers who can sway an entire nation of tens of millions of voters with their Svengali like powers, but at the same time are so fucking stupid, so fucking incompetent, so fucking careless they leave files on hacked servers with cyrillic.
Another point which should draw some level of skepticism. You know those 17 intel agencies which all said it was the Russians. I looked up the list and you begin to scratch your head a bit on how the Coast Guard became experts on Russian hacking.
As Greenwald basically says–these sort of huge accusations demand concrete irrefutable evidence as issues of war and peace depend on them. There is none at this moment and given the trajectory of the propaganda, there is none.
Craig is insufferable. I seldom reply to him and certainly am not going to be baited. He’s best ignored.
In addition to what Erelis said, I would also note that the only reason they were able to backtrack the phishing attempt was because the hackers didn’t bother to set their Bitly account to “private.”
Sounds like the most sophisticated Russian government cyberspies to me!
I hope the CIA is lying. And I hope Obama and Hillary hope the same.
For months since it became apparent that Hillary Clinton and her faithful staff at the State Department were posting our National Secrets in mails residing in their private servers, the entire Administration including its CEO went to great lengths to assure us that those secrets were still intact. This was their basis to condone Hillary’s treachery.
How come then this new admission not affect Hillary’s guilt?
I personally feel that the following things happened:
1) The DNC emails were sent to Wickilicks by Seth Rich. Seth got compromised, either by his own folly, by interrogation, or was betrayed, and he subsequently paid with his life.
2) John Podesta’s gmail account was hacked by scaring him online to disclose his password to a hack, who then went ahead to download the entire juicy archive before Podesta could plug the leak. That’s how his wicki started licking.
3) The two Guccifers must have intrude into the Clinton servers and downloaded stuff that the CIA should have been the first to find out – that our National Secrets were freely available on the net. Very shameful.
In the end, the real question is not so much as an attempt to interfere with our elections but rather how many of our treasured secrets have been compromised. I hope all Kenyans are praying that their worthless descendant remains worthy of the priceless real estate that we in our folly made him occupy. Otherwise, Kenya isn’t too far from Sudan and Somalia.
Makes sense. good thinking.
Also possible that hillary gave assurances she would be pres and make good on promises for prepaid donations. With the sheet in the fan, attempts to turn the electoral vote seems a bit like more election rigging dnc style.
The CIA lying is their default position,so its a definite,they are lying.
Let’s simplify with two simple questions. (Only one question for the scarecrows among us.)
1. If Russia had a decisive effect on the outcome of the US election, would that be a big deal?
2. If yes, how would you address it?
Simple eh?
Yes or no.
If yes to the first question, what do you do about it?
(If no to the first question, see the wizard for your daily affirmation.)
Great question(s). When you consider how much corporate influence, both domestic and international, there already is in US politics and elections, does it really matter if some of that influence is now state-sponsored? Particularly when you consider how active the US is, both positively and negatively, all over the globe. Even sadder when you factor in voter turnout.
1. If Russia had a decisive effect on the outcome of the US election, would that be a big deal?
Well, if we’re dealing in assumptions, then I will assume that you are referring to the leaking of the DNC/Podesta emails. I will say that yes, it likely mattered to some voters. Is that a big deal? Well, that would depend on how many voters it affected and I don’t have that information.
2. If yes, how would you address it?
As a voter, pretty much the way I did: I would assess them for what I perceive as the truth of the content. And, if I were anyone with influence over the DNC and/or Democratic poobahs, I’d tell them to fix their computer security.
As for Russia, assuming as we are that they are the guilty parties in your scenario, I certainly wouldn’t fucking agitate for nuclear war – or any kind of war – because it’s just too damn dangerous. Instead, I’d take it as an object lesson in “What goes around, comes around” and, again, I’d try ti make sure that my security was hardened to eliminate such vulnerabilities.
+ 1000
Anyone who sees it as anything consequential in the first instance, given it is likely impossible to “causally” link any disclosure or group of disclosures to a specific election outcome, then to “agitate” for anything more than rhetorical denunciation of the perpetrator (if definitively proved) and fixing our security–makes you a human species (and all others) threatening nutbag.
Lots of wars have started over a lot less consequential shit when purported “elites” get their underpants in a twist because they aren’t getting the respect they deserve or their private little sandboxes get fucked with by somebody else. And engaging in that sort of “agitation” or “escalation” by a nuclear armed nation against another nuclear armed nation is the textbook definition of “dumbest thing ever” in my book. Not to mention that’s also how accidents happen much less purposeful calculated hostilities.
1. If Russia had a decisive effect on the outcome of the US election, would that be a big deal?
It is a big deal. It’s also a big deal that WikiLeaks also interfered in the election for political reasons. The “what goes around comes around” doesn’t work for the Soviet Union….er Russia because they have a long history of interference in surrounding countries. Ukraine is the latest example. Has the US interfered in Russian elections?
2. If yes, how would you address it?
Sanctions is one route (as with North Korea). A cyber attack aimed at Russia in retaliation is another possibility. Possibly cutting off diplomatic relations is another although a drastic step – especially with the situation in Syria.
Don’t make me post the link of countries that we have “meddled” with, or attacked and/or have outright overthrown, etc.
I have no access to the threads so I can’t prevent you from posting whatever you want. It won’t change a thing for me. Russia (likely) hacked the DNC, and the US should probably drop some more economic sanctions on Russia in response.
Nein, strawman.
Thanks for the replies.
Let me try to list them and comment on those with substance.
1. bPhrea makes two points. One government coopted by corporations is not much different from government subverted by a foreign power. (I strongly disagree. In short, commercial interests do not have nukes, armies, national interests or market prices as an indicator of success.)
Second point: Since the US does it, it’s quite alright to do it to the US. A specious argument. If my neighbor kills my dog, I’m not granted the moral or legal right to kill his in return. Yes, the US has a long and sordid history of subversion in foreign governments. Millions have been killed as a result (see SE Asia, for example.) More deaths to avenge previous deaths seems like a counterproductive means if your goal is to avoid killing.
2. Pedinska — You evade the first question which I thought very clear, (“if Russia had a decisive effect on the outcome of the election …”) That has little to do with Podesta’s emails except as a detail. Emails, hacking, collusion, and social media manipulation are all tentacles of the same sea creature.
I think you argue that voters vote. Their votes silence all dispute. Misinformation, miscounts, mistakes, and miserable winners don’t count.
And finally the topper. A US presidential election is not worth a nuclear war — to which I’d say being a Russian proxy rather increases the chances of nuclear war than diminishing those chances. Why nuke an enemy who also has nukes? You lose your own cities. Much better for the proxy to do the nuking and absorb the counter punch.
RRHeard. The usual gibberish. I think he means people fight wars over for almost no reason. It’s in the human dna. Like Pedinska, better Trump and Russian subversion than nuclear war.
You realize of course that if you make nuclear war the only alternative to anything — a cup of coffee, military maneuvers, or giving the finger — then your argument can never be refuted. It can never be refuted because it’s a good argument, it can never be refuted because as toddlers we all learned that if we threaten the worse we can or can’t (depending upon parental spine).
Not only specious, but childish and useless.
Craig Summers. It’s a big deal and the response might be this or that. This is the only plausible response. I suppose if I had time I’d go into it.
Dahoit. An unpleasant snarl using a word he doesn’t understand to make an argument that doesn’t exist. Typical.
Hmmm… obsessive. Let’s count the number of off-topic email assaults that have been recently conducted by you (and yours) against Seema on numerous intercept threads. Let’s then look at the deeply insulting language that you are employing in these ongoing unconscionable attacks. And lastly, let’s consider the intent of such online bullying.
YES, BY ALL MEANS, LET”S DIRECTLY INVOLVE GLENN GREENWALD IN YOUR CLAIM THAT SOME OF HIS MOST LOYAL FANS ARE OBSESSIVELY ABUSIVE TOWARD THOSE WHO EXPRESS UNIQUE AND/OR DISSENTING OPINIONS. I AM QUITE CERTAIN THAT EVERYONE WILL BE INTERESTED IN HOW HE RESPONDS TO YOUR INCESSANT INVOCATIONS OF HIS NAME EVERY TIME THAT THAT YOU ARE TAKEN UP SHORT FOR YOUR BULLY PULPIT TACTICS. I INVITE THE SCRUTINY. OBTW, WASN’T ONE OF YOUR DEEPLY OFFENSIVE COMMENTS RECENTLY CENSURED BY THE INTERCEPT AT SEEMA’S REQUEST? AND WEREN’T YOU REPEATEDLY CENSURED FOR YOUR ONLINE BEHAVIOR AT THE GUARDIAN? OH, AND DIDN’T YOU WEAR OUT YOUR WELCOME AT RATIONAL WIKI AND PANDO AS WELL?
OBTW, many who are currently posting are now curious as to why Glenn Greenwald and the intercept would be tracking the ISP locations of its contributors (as you claim).
You are making shit up, including that last sentence. I usually ignore you, and shall do so now.
You have no other choice you cowardly putz; you have be just hung by your own petard.
On my, a typo! Let me repeat myself for clarity sake:
You have no other choice you cowardly putz; you have just BEEN HUNG by your own petard.
Thank you for you indulgence…
Sho nuff nigga, your dope was her rope.
You done switched up her game Dawg!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61GpQ2XaN2w
Lol. Can’t touch this…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGzvQT-HYP8
Lee Fang offers Exhibit #452,476 that Hillary hacks are shameless.
This is one of the most satisfying GG articles ever. Just looking at my moribund Facebook page and seeing friends sharing this wishful thinking propaganda depresses me, but GG gives me hope that idiocy can be defeated.
hey, suggestion for hot new dem hashtag:
#droolinglostpartisans
my2c
#gottagoputincalling
Max thinks it might be dementia
https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal
That’s a great tweet.
That’s a homerun Glenn! Spot on!
I posted a series of “things we learned in PodestaEmails” tweets a few months ago that in light of recentt “Russia hax0red our democracy!” hysteria bears repeating:
A) Podesta’s password at one time, was ‘p@ssw0rd’
B) Podesta lost his phone on multiple occasions.
C) Podesta emailed passwords/other account info routinely.
D) Coworkers had access and sign-on credentials to Podesta’s email accounts.
E) Podesta was instructed by an incompetent IT team to actually click an email phishing link.
F) Chelsea mentioned an employee was caught installing keylogging malware on computers at the Clinton Foundation.
So, the most likely reason we were able to peruse Team Clinton’s private correspondence on Wikileaks is because Podesta gave criminals access to his data after clicking a phishing link — and — because Hillary was an idiot for setting up a lightly secured email server in the first place.
great post. interesting summary. pretty lax habits. this would actually demonstrate that anyone could have tapped in. everyone oughta know
russia did itpodesta did itMona
“…….Moreover, whether claims are extraordinary are not, all claims require either evidence before a reasonable person should provisionally accept them as true, or justified reliance on an expert source with an earned reputation for reliability and truth-telling. Neither of those are present vis-a-vis the CIA’s claims here…….”
There is evidence, Mona.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/all-signs-point-to-russia-being-behind-the-dnc-hack via @motherboard)
Readers: About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board. I will respond to his substance if anyone whom I deem to be asking in good faith requests that I do so. (He’s spamming; he already posted this comment below.)
Care to take a shot at the evidence that Russia was behind the hack, Mona? This link was published in the article by Mackey at your beloved Intercept. It seems that Mackey and Greenwald have a slight disagreement on “evidence”. As far as spamming goes, I have to remember your goal is always to post at the top of the thread for maximum exposure. Just decided to use your strategy.
Thanks
Get lost, Mona.
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/309823-mccain-tillerson-ties-to-putin-a-matter-of-concern
Tillerson negotiated an energy partnership with Putin in 2011 that the Russian president said would be worth as much as $500 billion. The next year, the Exxon Mobile CEO received the Russian Order of Friendship from the Kremlin, one of the highest honors that Russia bestows on foreigners.
The energy deal was put on hold when the U.S. levied sanctions against Russia for annexing Crimea. Reuters reported earlier this year that Exxon vowed to resume the agreement once sanctions are rolled back, a process Tillerson would be heavily involved in as secretary of State.
Every constructive move the angry yam makes toward cooperation with Russia (Iran is first on Mattis Flynn hit lists) helps to undermine the recently passed bi partisan five year plan supporting the Russophobia at the heart of the PropOrNot (D) designed effort to marginalize or suppress your views dear readers.
I realize how counterintuitive that might seem to some of you but Russia’s a nuclear power and Iran is not (yet).
Amusing send-up of WaPo’s absurd source, PropOrNot: Your Friendly Guide to Better Propaganda
And then, they entertainingly do.
DailyBeast:
It really doesn’t get much better than this.
So much better than Comedy Central!
And the zionists,who actually did interfere (MSM and web) and do control our government(but not Trump despite bloviator BS),are given blanket protection by Congress,aka Israeli Occupied Territory.
The absurdity of it all.
The joke used to be:
Why has there never been a regime change in Washington?
And the answer was: Because there is no U.S. embassy there.
Soon the joke won’t be funny.
Carlson conducted a brilliant interview of Schiff. This is a perfect example of adversarial journalism. Watching Carson squirm on the question of Podesta’s hacked emails was worth the price of admission!!! Thanks Glenn, I needed that.
watching Schiff squirm….
Yes, my bad. Thanks for the correction.
Watching SCHIFF squirm on the question of Podesta’s hacked emails was worth the price of admission!!!
i could not stop laffing at the whole thing, watched it 4 or 5 times already.
that last line, “i gotta take a call from Putin so i’m gonna put you on hold…”. priceless.
Donald J. Trump is president elect and on January 20, 2017 he will become president…..GET OVER IT!!!
Thanks once again for bringing some sanity to this debate and reminding us to base it all on evidence, otherwise it’s just speculation. However, one big story on the election that I think does have lots of evidence is the interstate Crosscheck program – check Greg Palast’s article in the Rolling Stone published in August on a list of 7.2 million minorities targeted for removal from the voter rolls (“7.2 million suspects, yet we found no more than four perpetrators who have been charged with double voting or deliberate double registration”.) “a former federal judge (and now Congressman) Alcee Hastings has called for criminal indictments and written an official Congressional member letter to ask for investigation. Hastings’ demand for justice is backed by a petition to expose and end Crosscheck’s racist attacks on voting rights. So far it’s been signed by 50,000 people, including 29,507 members of 18 Million Rising, the Asian-American rights group. The group is joined by co-signers Rep. Keith Ellison, Bill Gallegos of Climate Justice, Martin Luther King III and others.” See his site gregpalast.com for more on this
Why were so many political polls wrong….The day of the election?…..Could there be more than just hacking for emails?…..What abut hacking the election count?
https://medium.com/@Robert_Jacobson/the-secret-police-vs-the-deep-state-794f95c8cc82#.lusarzwz0
“The Secret Police vs. The Deep State vs. … The Electoral College?”
Bottomline: It’s silly to argue the proof behind the claim. It can never be _proven_ that hacking occurred that altered the election outcome. When there is sufficient circumstantial evidence — a subjective, not a legal decision — a jury — in this case, the American people and the world — can draw its own conclusions.
What’s beyond dispute is that the intelligence community and the paramilitary FBI are at odds and literally fighting for dominance in terms of determining domestic political outcomes. The rest of us are just nattering on the sidelines.
Bravo Glenn
“The Secret Policy vs. The Deep State vs. … The Electoral College” https://medium.com/@Robert_Jacobson/the-secret-police-vs-the-deep-state-794f95c8cc82#.lusarzwz0
Another true tweet!
It was a massive disappointment to many voters to learn that Mrs. Clinton had a public and a private policy position. Americans are not accustomed to this level of deceit from their elected representatives and they turned decisively against her. Hopefully, the NSA will find a way to secure the DNC servers to prevent the catastrophe of the voters making an informed choice from ever happening again.
The Bernie supporters were quite pleased to be able to smack the DNC and their allies with those emails after months of Clinton surrogates and supporters smearing us as “conspiracy theorists” for our virtual certainty that they were sabotaging Bernie’s campaign.
Wonkette are crowing over the CIA’s “disclosure” too. No shock there.
I think Mr. Brennan should simply shake Mr. Comey’s hand and congratulate him for winning the election. The CIA will have future victories so the deep state should stop damaging itself by continuing to fight a lost battle.
Of course, if the CIA can execute an electoral college flip, the results would be interesting. I imagine that local police forces, the FBI and the army would side with Mr. Trump while the navy, air force and CIA would side with Mrs. Clinton. The civil war would be protracted and I imagine that several new nations would emerge from the charred remnants of the United States.
The alternative is that Mr. Trump becomes President and he and Mr. Putin forge an alliance to replace NATO, designed to contain China. But I digress from the subject of the article.
I suspect, Il Duce, the conflict whether or not it results in an electoral rejection of Trump merely continues an ongoing Cold War between the reactionary FBI and the neo-liberal CIA, the “Secret Police vs. the Deep State.” As always, it’s the formal government and the citizenry who are the last to be consulted. The outcome, as always, is that we are all just pawns in this game, including hapless Trump.
Thanks for providing such an efficient, shareable tool to help craven Republicans, and Trump enablers thwart the first tiny attempt anyone in power has made to perhaps (perhaps) right the biggest wrong ever perpetrated on our democracy. How very generous of you.
I probably could, without any info from an anonymous CIA source, have had serious concerns about Russian involvement in our election. Why? !. Top people in Trump’s campaign worked directly for the Russian government at one time or another. 2. Russian has had a habit of interfering with elections in foreign counties. 3. Russia hacked its former satellite county and shut down the entire country as punishment for its pro-West positions. 4. Trump has significant business ties to Russia-loans that he cannot get anywhere else. 5. Trump has repeatedly praised the the Russian dictator. 6. Putin would love nothing better than to embarrass the United States trying to hold an election. 7. Assange was cooperating with the Russians because he wants revenge for Hillary Clinton’s efforts to have him arrested. She is the reason he is a refugee. 8. No emails or other information was hacked and released from the Trump campaign. 9. Trump denied ever having met Putin. In fact, on an ABC-TV News interview he told the interviewer that he had a relationship with Putin several years before the election. 10. Trump is an easy dupe. Putin is a master spy. He knows how to analyze people’s weaknesses. Putin knows that Trump is a psychopathic narcissist. Putin told Trump he is a genius. Trump’s narcissism would cause him to have excessive fondness and trust in Putin because of the compliment. In effect, the not so bright Trump, became Putin’s idiot. 11. Trump denied the allegations of spying without any basis whatsoever. Trump had none of the intelligence information that our spy agencies had. Why would Trump take the side of Russia and not American intelligence?
I have this vision of a pack of psychopaths running around beating one another over the head, fighting frantically to get their hands on the whip.
CNN, Reuters, others deliberately sample more Democrats than Republicans–there in their own methodology breakdowns–and then claim with a straight face that Hillary is winning an election that her (as well as Trump’s) internal numbers told a different story about.
Progressives then get on the boards and squeal–with circular reasoning–that there are more Democrats than Republicans, offering no proof.
Clinton was correct in her assessment of her constituency during the Hillarycare deliberations: they’re, in her words, “fungible.”
There actually was nothing wrong with that methodology if you look at the actual election results. Predictions in polling can only be based on past behavior. If you look at exit polling of the Midwestern states that swung for Trump, there is a stunning revelation that a large number of people who voted for Obama didn’t vote for Clinton (I can’t remember the exact number but I recall it being a million). 1/4 went to 3rd parties but 3/4 just didn’t vote for president. So, it’s not that Trump won these Midwestern white voters, the Democrats lost them (for there concurrently was not a particularly large surge in new white working voters for Trump). That’s where the predictive polls were wrong – not in skewing more Democratic voters (because there were MORE) but assuming that their behavior would be the same as 2012. It really shows the limits of polling because it didn’t or can’t (nor being a statistician I’m not sure) factor in the individual candidate inspiring someone to get out and vote. The poll projections were wrong NOT because of skewed raw data of more Democrats but that they had no or didn’t use the algorithm for how disliked Clinton was with Democrats in these swing Midwestern states that numbers larger than the margin of victory simply stayed home. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/12/the_myth_of_the_rust_belt_revolt.html
Except that’s not the methodology LA Times or IBD used, both of which yielded more accurate results.
Instead, outlets like Reuters specifically asked for the political affiliation of voters and then pre-weighted the sample in favor of Democrat respondents.
Belatedly brings to mind Shakespeare Much Ado About Nothing! 1500’s and the self-designated SuperPower plunges into mental simplicity of a teenager!
You beautiful People don’t even know that It might have been the Big O who privately pushed Mr. Trump after al the resistance he endured as the Man.
Chance of being onto something to get the CrookdCllintons off his back?
Some forward thinking here.
Nah. He gave Crooked Clinton the Secretary of State job. To burnish her resume for a presidential run. I assume at the behest of the DNC. Obama is a loyal, corrupt, DNC team player.
Be interesting to see what plum position he ends up with as his reward for protecting the banksters and torturers during his reign.
After months of hearing that North Korea did the Sony hacks it was discovered that a disgruntled ex-employee at Sony did it. Inside job.
Then with the DNC hacks Assange, whose organization Wikileaks which has NEVER revealed a source, put out a $20,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of the person who murdered Seth Rich, an inside the DNC employee who was brutally murdered in a “robbery attempt” but where his wallet, money, credit cards, watch and iPhone were all left at the scene. He was about to testify in a case dealing with Hillary Clinton (Google it) and Julian Assange, in an interview, came thisclose to saying Rich was the leaker.
Now that Rich is dead I would encourage Assange to make this one exception in Wikileaks protocol and show evidence (if they have it) that Rich was the leaker.
Then if Schiff wants to call for an investigation into the death of Seth Rich, that would be a worthy expenditure of our tax dollars.
In the meantime, I hope Schiff gets a run for his money when he faces re-election in 2018.
Furthermore, to stop all the nonsense, Schiff should hold a presser and he should release the hard evidence proving Putin was behind the DNC and Podesta hacks.
Had Clinton squeaked through we would be hearing crickets about all this right now.
Agree, Rich death opens the field to releasing in the name of justice.
Ask Michael Hastings how much his employers Buzzfeed and Rolling Stone give a shit.
It’s good that the 17 agencies have reached a consensus on this, even with no evidence. Trump can then in good faith sweep away the management of all of them, as they are all political hacks.
I guess you haven’t clued into Trump having no problems with hacks, yes men, and all the other sorts of people that enable con artists, ‘strongmen’, ‘populists’, and fascists. Well, as long as they’re willing to switch allegiances to him. And the agencies that found the WMDs minutes from launch in Iraq for Bush, and Russian hackers for Obama will almost certainly be willing to find whatever Trump wants them to find, when Trump wants them to find it (and just as importantly NOT be able to find what he doesn’t want found) so I doubt there’ll be much management changes coming.
If he wants hacks, he will find different ones. But I expect him to make a clean sweep of these guys.
18 months of endless, non-stop Trump demonization and poll-number cooking by the Clinton News Network, the JY Times, NYDailyNews.
Progressive Leftists heart Corporate Media.
“JY Times”
Inadvertent typo, frozen in amber by the regrettable lack of preview/edit function? Or something else?
I put it at 50/50. (After all, J is pretty close to N on my keyboard. On the other hand…)
Just FYI, Gator, this is that loon who thinks Hitler was a man of the left and the greatest problem plaguing the world is the Illuminati’s Satanic mind-control, as best demonstrated by his favorite écrivain .
Do you really want to give him/her the benefit of the doubt on this? He /She can always embarrassingly deny that was their intention.
Daily Stormer:
“Jew York Times Publishes Article Complaining About Whiteness of National Parks”
I try (not always successfully) to give folks the benefit of the doubt when possible. Many here and elsewhere have been kind enough to afford me that same courtesy.
That’s good of you, but this case seems somewhat obvious. Of course, he could just say it was a keyboard mistake easily enough……
Sorry, People but rigging an election.. “What does that even mean?”….
This reminds me that the political spectrum is not a line, but a square. Both sides have their Libertarian elements, and they also have their Authoritarian elements. Right now, the Left is at war with itself over whether to be Authoritarian or Libertarian. Bernie’s side generally represents the Libertarian populism of the left, and right now, as horrifying as it is to me, the establishment Dems are becoming more and more Authoritarian. The idea that a liberal could accept without evidence, a claim as large as this, by organizations they’ve long since despised and distrusted because it fits their political narrative, horrifies me. I don’t know if the claim itself of Russia interference is true or false, but the problem is that there IS NO PROOF. Not only that , but the sources of said claims are continuously hidden. I’m becoming very disturbed by the way the winds are changing.
Fanatics of Big Government hyper-state, and regulations for everything, were always the authoritarians.
Bernie’s side generally represents the Libertarian populism of the left, and right now, as horrifying as it is to me, the establishment Dems are becoming more and more Authoritarian.
I would say that Gary Johnson generally represented the Libertarian populists in this election. I can’t think of a single thing that Sanders put forth as a policy position that was supported by the libertarians I know, but maybe the libertarians you know are different. :-s
“You didn’t build that!” “You didn’t vote that!”
Suddenly the Russians got into the brains of the people who voted for Trump and have the power to control not only the brain of the elected president but also the brain of his followers. I will watch again the movie, “The Manchurian Candidate”, it is a great movie, a classic.
It is interesting that Obama never ordered an independent probe into 9/11 or invasion of Iraq or on the Wall Street Collapse, however, his obsession with the Russians is amazing; he dreams about Putin and Moscow.
At the same time and the same day suddenly there is a news of a thousand Russian athletes doing well in 2012 London Olympics due to enhanced drugs. Too close for comfort, all these news in the same day. Mr. Obama, you need to be more creative, I know you don’t have much time left but…please, do not insult our intelligence with your demagogic sermon. You are part of the same system too that runs everything from behind the curtains. In 2008 I thought you were the real thing, you fooled me.
Yes,the official propaganda is disgusting,and obvious.It’s an attempt to box Trump into adversarial positions re Russia,and this newest 0 crap about a full in house investigation over complete nonsense already debunked multiple times by his own people,is another sign of the hatred for Trump by the serial liars and their political dupes.
Look at Graham and the real mad dog,McCain,saying the same,in effect calling Trumps victory illegitimate,in the same party.Wow.
The battle lines are being drawn,which side are you on?
The criminal serial murdering lying zionists,their,MSM,their dupes and whores,or are you Americans for America?
Me too. He really had me going. I did a fundraiser for him at my home in Westhampton Beach, did phone banking, made an anti-Palin video (where I played Palin…funny stuff).
Then when Obama’s Health Care team did their “listening tour” at the Southampton library and 100% of those attending were voicing our support for Single Payer or at least a Public Option, Obama’s rep. announced that we wouldn’t be getting any of those things, I knew we had been had.
Live and learn….
Post it on YouTube (inquiring minds want to know).
ditto
and of all the criminal activities he could have pursued he decides the Mr. Putin is the bad guy.
the murder of Seth Rich is far more important.
maybe the russians did that, maybe he should find out.
This constitutional law professor duped me twice. His election rhetoric (which is all that could have won him that Nobel Prize) on almost every issue in time revealed to be diametrically opposed to his administrations actual policies and practices.
Collectivist globalists are rattled. This wasn’t part of the plan.
You were going to have the PRI. A hundred years of the Institutional Revolutionary Party, calling people “folks” during every press release and policy discussion.
Thank God for normal voters who just wanted a plain-speaking human being.
The chickens have come home to roost.
Every single legitimately elected foreign ruler deposed and destroyed by the United States government are laughing in their graves. Karma’s a bitch isn’t it? Wonder what color THIS revolution is? I’m guessing purple.
Thank you Glenn – yet again!!
Integrity is in short supply these days. You are amongst a hand full of journalists that I am truly grateful for:
– Your professionalism
– Integrity
– Intelligence, experience & ability to synthesize a story into a big picture context
– Courage
Never doubt how important your work is to those of us working in the trenches.
Warm wishes to you and your family
2nd.
the sad part are his fellows at intercept…
Clare Attwell – I second that as well!
The FBI said Russia didn’t hack anything. William Binney suggested earlier this year that concerned citizens working within the U.S.’s own SIGINT may have clued in Assange and Wikileaks.
No..?? You think William Binney might have some credibility??? :)
@Fleischer
About ten times more than any of our “intelligence” agencies.
Enlightening read. Here is my problem, Wikileaks. You have been a big supporter of Wikileaks and their various individuals actors. Assange and company chose to become an disruptive actor for a nation state against either an individual (clinton) or the country (in disrupting the election).
I would be more likely to engage with your discussion had you disclosed your previous or current support for the organization that participated in this resulting clusterfuck.
Schiff seems to be such an imbecile. Wondering how he got elected. Could it be because of… Putin? Or… Netanyahu?
Seriously, is ANYONE investigating the Zionazis and the state of Israel’s interference in our political processes and their constant attempts to impurify our precious bodily fluids?
Israel is our friend. Ask the crewmembers of the “Liberty”. They are all big fans.
OT, another no evidence spinner top.
The attack Israel apologized for? Why apologize if it never happened?
What a fantastic article. I wish more journalists put this much effort and thought into there work.
I think the clear message is that all of these agencies; the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, ect…need to be reigned in. They are all purposefully engaging in manipulative actions toward our democracy, which is absolutely not part of their mission. On the same note, if it turns out Russia did interfere or worse that Trump is in fact a Manchurian candidate then he can be dealt with too.
In related news…
If Trump wasn’t such a idiot, I could interpret statements like:
“One of the things I’m gonna do, and this is only gonna make it tougher for me, and I’ve never said this before, but one of the things I’m gonna do if I win… is I’m gonna open up our libel laws so when they write purposely negative and horrible and false articles, we can sue them and win lots of money. We’re gonna open up those libel laws.”
As evidence he is going to go after manipulators of our democracy.
However, he is a idiot, and the above statement means what it sounds like. He is going to (try) to throw out freedom of the press. Because they hurt his feelings.
Trump is not a secret genius. He is not the man who is going to clean out the ‘deep state’. He is exactly what he appears to be, a spoiled manchild with small hands and a small vocabulary. With him, things don’t go very deep. Which is troubling, considering just how very deep a lot of the people he will be surrounded by are.
Requiring defendants in a libel suit to show convincing evidence that their published claims are actually true is British law. That simply attaches greater responsibility for harms owing to an exercise of liberty. It does that liberty no injustice but does assures it cannot be held harmless for public injustices it inflicts on others.
Reign them in he says..
It sounds good, but here is the hard cold reality.
The us govt and it’s allies realize that the ‘work’ performed by these 3 letter agencies just can’t be replaced. The kinds of financial protection, privacy protection , defensive and offensive, is such that they’ve become the masters. If the administration or a banking concern needs to make some moves…call in the 5 eyes. It’s world wide. These are the organizations that move mountains …completely legal.. Authorized..and secret. Just like they all want and need it to be. This is the sixth state. The ring that rules them all.
There are really one option left to break it:
Hack the corrupt organization and spill its secrets to everyone. And then cripple its most serious infrastructure.
If you think that a public debate on capitol hill or a few strong sounding regulations or push backs are going to change anything, you might want to consider what has really changed after the snowden leaks. Nada.
In fact there is more evidence than ever they have achieved greater reach and more cooperation from govt and corporate than ever before.
Its a money and power exercise.
And these boys throw their weight around.
You ever wonder why it is the pres elects cone out of their first sec briefings completely different people?
They got that ‘talk’.
It only takes about five minutes before the transformation happens.
They never can be president they want to be. Its a lesson they learn fast and clear.
Imagine the smartest people you’ve ever met in a room, and they reveal to you every single vulnerability, activity, relationship, finances, mistresses, crimes, or any other kind if information they know would put you in the worst kind of life you’ve ever imagined. These are gods. They have that much power.
These presidents never see it coming. They might have some idea. But they can never truly understand how incredibly manipulative and commanding these people are.
They are the masters of everything. They have many enemies but no equals. If something exists, it because these agencies have made a decision to allow it to exist.
If they see a play, you never see it coming.
So putting these agencies under bridle may sound proper.
But they will never tolerate relinquishing any real power.
And the power you want to unwind is the very power they refuse to separate from.
There us only one way: offensive hacking to expose and then to destroy.
Let the games begin
Thanks so much, Glenn. I read the pieces from both the NYT and WaPo last night and saw that “Russia” was trending on Twitter. Basically, many on the left side of my twitter feed were convinced Trump was a Russian plant or stooge while the right mostly mocked and dismissed. There were very few voices simply stating the obvious – we don’t know anything for certain.
I kept hoping you would chime in quickly and cut through all the noise. And you’ve done just that. And I really appreciate it.
We shouldn’t believe the Wapo’s story on the day the President ordered a high level investigation of the matter.
On the other hand we SHOULD uncritically publish troves of emails that wikileaks received from an anonymous source (which evidence suggests is tied to Russia() and republished without editing or checking source on days TIMED to affect the outcome of the US election.
Ed Snowden has been much more responsible and consistent on this issue. I’m very disappointed in Greenwalds latest uncritical ‘critical’ tirades against fake news and Russian meddling in the election. Sure be skeptical…but that’s not the tone here… it’s straight out apology.
It’s funny how the Democrats, Clintonites and war-mongers in general are highlighting election manipulation blaming Russia.
All govs do shady shit, so that’s nothing new, but wasn’t it them who pumped 5 billion into regime change in Ukraine? Does nobody remember Nuland’s phonecall that showed exactly who they wanted in government?
And guess what… that’s who ended up in government.
They even disregarded the Ukrainian constitution when they had the UKR parliament vote out the former president. They didn’t have enough votes.
We’re used to this hypocrisy of course, but maybe election manipulation being the hot topic right now could be a good time to ride the wave and help the American people become more knowledgeable about just how much their government is interfering in other countries. Just how many coups, regime changes, manipulation etc etc there were/are. Maybe a series on the most vocal voices screaming “Russia!11!” right now and their “sins” would be fun.
Just like the fake news hot topic would be a good time to do a series on foreign countries’ media. Say in Germany most big media outlets have a director or editor on there who are members of transatlantic clubs. Would heighten media competence for ordinary Americans and help lookthrough this “manipulation!”11″ thing.
Here’s a vid showing transatlantlic network in Germany by 2 of the best German satirists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_bmegfMyVI
Watching their pieces is really worth it. They even provide fact check :)
This seems very short term, all working up to a last ditch effort to flip the Electoral Congress. Certainly Hillary has been “quiet… too quiet” lately, and we have gems like http://www.politicususa.com/2016/12/10/founding-fathers-russia-election-interference-means-electoral-college-reject-trump.html on display.
There is much to be said for sending Trump’s hand-picked idiots packing and incidentally following the popular vote, but there is still a sense to be had that democracy, already wounded, would take another hit in the process. Yet… it might be worth it, because how well will democracy stand up to Trump?
History is a bitch for control freaks. Some of us remember.
The smugly narcissistic always fail to understand that the laws of thermodynamics apply to them along with the rest of us…
Yes and we pay dearly.
That’s what it is.
one moment…..
aha!
after careful inspection of Trump’s birth certificate, it was printed in moscow!
where he was born!
dont get me started.
You obliviate the likes of snl– go for it!
An oldie but goodie
Why MURDER INC is for Clinton
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/08/06/pers-a06.html
that is interesting!
it sounds like perhaps whoever controls the cia needs a president crooked enough to believe or accept whatever crap they manufacture.
what are they trying to cover? jfk assassination file?
It would be a very patriotic move if Obama released the entire unredacted file of the JFK assassination prior to January 20th.
Of course then he would have to be patriotic to do so.
Civilians in the US should dispel with stupid beliefs like “The president is patriotic.”
OMG, THANK YOU for recalling us to sanity and reason in this media environment where it seems that we ARE each entitled to our own “facts.”
I never thought the Democrats would emulate Joe McCarthy for their strategy to win back the house in 2018. What happened to all those sore loser Trump voters who were not going to accept the results of the election?
The real danger of this is that Russia has nuclear weapons. Now 50 million brain-dead liberals hate them for no reason.
“…….The real danger of this is that Russia has nuclear weapons. Now 50 million brain-dead liberals hate them for no reason……”
Are you talking about the liberals in Syria and Ukraine?
Liberals, who correctly support equality for minorities and women, would be killed by the Jihadists Obama arms in Syria or the Nazi Battalions he arms in the Ukraine:
“Under pressure from the Pentagon, Congress has stripped the spending bill of an amendment that prevented funds from falling into the hands of Ukrainian neo-fascist groups.”
“Congressmen John Conyers of Michigan and Ted Yoho of Florida drew up an amendment to the House Defense Appropriations bill (HR 2685) that “limits arms, training, and other assistance to the neo-Nazi Ukrainian militia, the Azov Battalion. It passed by a unanimous vote in the House. ”
https://www.thenation.com/article/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/
We have been over this. Azov is a single battalion which is what the US bill covered. They have been incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard today and the bill passed Congress (Wikipedia):
“…………More than half of the Battalion members are from eastern Ukraine and speak Russian,[8] and some of its recruits come from the eastern cities of Donetsk and Luhansk……The Azov Battalion has its roots in a group of Ultras of FC Metalist Kharkiv named “Sect 82? (1982 is the year of the founding of the group).[14] “Sect 82? was (at least until September 2013) allied with FC Spartak Moscow Ultras………..According to The Daily Telegraph, the Azov Battalion’s extremist politics and professional English social media pages have attracted foreign fighters,[21] including people from Ireland, Italy, United Kingdom, France, America, Greece and Scandinavia.[2][21] Sweden, Spain[2][47] and Russia[48] About 50 Russian nationals are members of the Azov regiment….”
Over half are from eastern Ukraine Including 50 Russian nationals which indicates that the rebels probably also have their fair shares of Nazis (supported by Putin).
There appears to be a war going on within the Deep State in America over Trump’s election. Before the election, there was visible CIA support for Hillary.
Hillary was the CIA/ deep state candidate and she very surprisingly lost.
Part of the deep state is rattled by Trump’s win and is worried that he might go after some of them. By going after the Clintons for example.
So the false (or even true) CIA claims about Russia hacking and threats of investigations are now being used to rattle Trump. It is to eventually tame him. Or there is a blackmail strategy going on. These claims could be a response to the Podesta expose and the allegations about a pedophilia scandal in the Democratic party. I read recent tweets suggesting Alefantis might be running a CIA op. Who knows?
But the deep State wants to to tame Trump and make him less powerful by de-legitimizing his Presidency.
Something is definitely going on vis-a-vis Trump and the US deep State.
I first posted this on another thread by mistake. It was meant for here.
LOL.
Read Greenwald’s “With Liberty And Justice For Some”
Of course you did.
yep.
presidents come and go, lifers dont.
he had mentioned about auditng the fed and the jfk hit
he is a command and control guy who doesnt take crap
they fear him alright
they are trying now to prep the country to accept a reverse by the electoral college
schiff is shifty
we need more info about the hit on SETH RICH
we need more info about the hit on SETH RICH
we need more info about the hit on SETH RICH
we need more info about the hit on SETH RICH
we need more info about the hit on SETH RICH
I agree the deep state is confused now; yet Trump is a needy narcissist — he will make the deep state actors happy because he wants to be adored by all. Actually Obama has a similar psychology. He vainly imagined just his presence would clean up Washington. Obama is an introverted narcissist and Trump is an extroverted one.
“I’m really good at killing people.”
– Dear Leader, Obama
TWEETS!!!!! Gotta be true then…
The man sure is a busybody: running a Satanic pedophile ring and CIA ops too. And they say he serves a great pizza [cough!] too!
Well, well, well… here we have the tag teem of Mona and her sock puppet Gert attempting to brow beat Seema once again. Different day, same ol’, ‘same ol. HEY MONA!!! BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME!!! (NOT)
Fuck off, moron.
Haven’t you got some “Pizzagate” UToobs to ‘review’?
Of course Karl thinks someone of Seema’s, um, peculiar claims and obsessions must be defended. He’s also unmoored from reality. Karl thinks that, e.g., it’s calumny most foul to document that protestant, white America — historically and preponderantly — supported slavery, Jim Crow, lynching & etc.
Must I request that Glenn do as he did with another obsessive? He knows where I live and can determine most ISP locations.
Karl, “Pizzagate” supporter, also wrote this on Mackey’s Geert Wilders post:
Karl doesn’t know what a refugee is: all ‘brownishe people’ is close enough for Karl.
I wish we has some worthwhile opposition, other than loons like Karl and nut said, on these threads.
Dialectics can work but you need a player to tango with.
YOU ally yourself with people who believe Comet Ping Pong is a locus for satanic pedophile rings, Seema.
You also linked to an openly fascist webblog, when I had already provided a link to the images you find so suspect.
Quit playing the ‘wronged innocent’ here: you own what you link to, arsehole.
How about some twit or other link to some deeply anti-Hindu stuff, how would you feel about that? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, imbecile.
Once again you resort to disinformation about me deliberately.
My comments on Alefantis’ instagram posts on this thread merely suggest https://theintercept.com/2016/12/06/disinformation-not-fake-news-got-trump-elected/?comments=1#comments
the child related creepiness and inappropriate language that the FBI/ Police have a cause to probe. Which you for some reason are invested in covering up.
I read some stuff yesterday suggesting Alefantis could be running a CIA op. AS I said WHO KNOWS, but it is certainly possible.
Satanic references are your own fantastical imaginations.
I linked to a picture of one of Alefantis’ instagram posts. That’s all. So stop trying to discredit me. The site I linked to may or may not be fascist. I cannot be bothered to read it. I linked to a picture, which is authentic.
Feel free to twit about Hinduism, India, whatever you want. I stand for freedom of speech and anti-Hindu stuff doesn’t bother me.
– The Russians did it.
– No. 4Chan.
– Yes. Russians on 4Chan. Lulz!
– In Washington?
– Yes. Russians on 4Chan in Washington.
– Using the symbol of Pepe The Frog and talking about spirit-cooking while impersonating the Alt-Right?
– KEK!
I swear this entire election is like some dada-ist, situationist, art project rather than an Orwellian nightmare. I have seen the future and it’s a lobster in a restaurant’s fish tank waving it’s claws at us and growing. For ever.
It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so terrifying.
that’s outright hilarious
that lobster’s not from russia, is it?
just remember, if you get a call from putin for a post, tell schiff.
Evidence has rarely been required for such accusations for a long time.
The precautionary principle holds that the lack of evidence itself is proof of the deed. This approach has been used since at least the cold war.
A lack of evidence of nuclear submarines in the 60s, despite a dedicated intelligence team hunting for them, meant that they definetly existed, because making them untraceable is “what the Russians would do”.
If there is no solid evidence of the Russians being behind the hacks it means the Russians did it because the perpetrators hid their tracks, “consistent” with what the Russians would have done.
Facts? Where we’re going we don’t need “facts” *dons glasses*
We all know that the Post, Times, and CIA represent the same party apparat. The question is what happens when (and if) the old regime is turfed out on January 20.
“Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!” ?
hopefully Trump follows thru and busts some ghosts
Youall wake up now!
There is no evidence, or we would certainly be seeing it!
We have a bunch of people who make a living ponduring, speculation, and writing at length on whatever.
At the end of the day, all these, who sided with the DISHONEST CrookdClintonsObamatrio are now out of a job!
It is about JobSecurity!
Maybe youall can rent rooms to the indocumented?
The nytimes and the washingtonpost need to shrink themselves down to the LeMonde size newspaper, quick featherbedding themselves with idiocy and whatever anyone throws to the wind!
“Neither are claims of attribution admissible in any criminal case, so those who make the claim don’t have to abide by any rules of evidence (i.e., hearsay, relevance, admissibility).”
Thanks Glenn
Besides the DNC and HRC machine wanting to find excuses and the point about not trusting some anonymous claims without proof, one should also point out that this falls in line with the foreign policy that the entire gov / intelligence community has been trying to pursue which requires keeping an anti-russia feeling high. They’re trying to put pressure on Trump to not cooperate on common threats let alone make nice with Russia.
Doesn’t matter whether that makes the world less peaceful and safe or whether it is against the American people’s interest. The powers that be don’t want their interests gone against.
It’s human nature to fantasize about undoing a tragedy (even those little tragedies like getting turned down when you ask someone for a date), and just as much human nature to only look at things that happened (or were imagined to have happened) close to the tragedy as what needed to be ‘undone’ to change things.
So, you’ve seen, and going to continue to see, lots of talk about ‘Russian hackers’ and ‘FBI investigations’ and ‘media bias’ and ‘electoral college’ and ‘rigged primaries’ and ‘bad campaigns’ and ‘money politics’ and ‘voter suppression’ and ‘voter apathy’ and…
But how often will you hear about the need to teach data analysis and critical thinking skills right along with the alphabet and numbers, or the need for ‘debates’ to be like the debates you were taught in school (needing cited evidence to base the arguments in, and showing that the cited evidence is shaky or debunked counting for a lot more than a zinger) etc?
spot on.
i hope schiff doesnt ban “BACK IN THE USSR”
It is so ironic that a writer that has so often failed to vet or verify leaks and news before Tweeting it out or spreading it is now cautioning us to be careful.
So President Obama’s legacy is that he has pretty much surrendered our country to Russian hackers. Apparently, anyone can just walk in and take whatever they feel like.
You didnt bother to read the article then?
hacker schmacker give me a cracker
vs
my name is adam
i am the keeper of secrets
i will tell you who whatfor
you will believe me
if you fail to heed me
you are a traitor
for i am all knowing
and you are know nothing
for i am the premier authority of all that needs to be known of the unknown and not to be known for no known reason.
and you must know that
Look below you, Glenn….That is a shark you just jet skied over,
To say that questions surrounding the hacks of the DNC are “serious and important” is an understatement. This man is about to assume office with a minority of the populace behind him and allegedly with the connivance of a foreign power. There is an urgency inherent in this situation that leaves no time for a lawyerly examination of the evidence. But you have not addressed the question of motivation. Exactly why would these two competing agencies conspire to leak allegations of Russian interference? Why now? The election is over. Do they hope to flip the electoral college in some Hail Mary pass to get their favored candidate into office? That seems dubious. And, bear in mind that the FBI, openly hostile to Hillary, agrees with Russian involvement, only disagreeing about the motivation. Saying that they’re all a bunch of liars anyway is unsupported by the examples you’ve cited which mostly involve cover-your-ass lies. The one exception is the Iraq WMD disaster in which the intelligence agencies were openly pressured by the administration to collude in their plans. So I’m not seeing what any of these agencies have to gain in undermining support for an administration that they will have to serve. On the other hand, the Russians had a large and obvious motivation to get Trump in power: changing US policy. And, let’s note, that Trump’s policy is an about-face in favor of Russia. And, as Craig pointed out, German intelligence is signaling concern about meddling in their elections. So yes, let’s demand further evidence but meanwhile, the presumption lies is that they did in fact attempt to influence our elections.
Who’s the CIAs Dada? Who’s been in defiance of every ugly thing that has happened to America and the world for the last 5 years?
daffy?
porky?
bugs?
wait- 5 years is a clue…………… ROOTIE PUTE!?
ok serious, ……… 5 yrs………. havent got the 5yr mark nailed, but would have to be money.
saudi or israel…… mossad?
:) Not sure that’s correct but definitely you’re trying to find out.
” Nobody has ever opposed investigations to determine if Russia hacked these emails”
Not one Republican has signed on to John Lewis’ initiative to investigate Russia’s role in the election yet. The President-Elect claimed without any evidence at all that the CIA assessment was wrong. The CIA may not have a perfect history of honesty but I guarantee it compares well to the corrupt, pathological liar that you support. Never realized you were such a shill.
“nor has anyone ever denied the possibility that Russia did that. ”
Except the incoming President of the United States, c’mon Glenn – what do you think is going on here, you the CIA wants tar and feather the incoming President for no reason???
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof; however, these claims aren’t extraordinary – and what exactly do you think is going on? A smear campaign?
I keep seeing that Trump has denied it, and maybe he did, but do you have a link?
Moreover, whether claims are extraordinary are not, all claims require either evidence before a reasonable person should provisionally accept them as true, or justified reliance on an expert source with an earned reputation for reliability and truth-telling. Neither of those are present vis-a-vis the CIA’s claims here.
I will add to that by suggesting, no highlighting, the FACT that the very subject matter we are discussing CAN BE technically forensically authenticated with DNA sequencing precision. This compared to other information that cannot be so evaluated for falsifiability and attribution methods.
So we have the tools, we know they work. We can prove they work. The government has the burden to show this test was performed and that attribution has been established.. With precision.
In the world of data forensics this involves independent inspection. By formal peer review. This is the scientific method, be cause it is a scientific process.
The issue is should we trust that the govt has done its math correct?
There is only one way to find out: Release the findings and the data.
The agencies have not inspired confidence by being overly secretive and walled about this process.
What they will create is a mistrust and push back going this way.
And they will pave the way for another hacking group to just go do their work for the American people.
Because that is what us going to happen next.
There is going to be a lot of red faced experts in DC in the coming days
The facts were somewhat different—for example, the soldier had not been shot in the back, and was not dead, and the girl seems to have been as dubious a symbol of womanhood as her white counterpart in Georgia usually is, but no one was interested in the facts. They preferred the invention because this invention expressed and corroborated their hates and fears so perfectly. It is just as well to remember that people are always doing this. Perhaps many of those legends, including Christianity, to which the world clings began their conquest of the world with just some such concerted surrender to distortion. The effect, in Harlem, of this particular legend was like the effect of a lit match in a tin of gasoline. The mob gathered before the doors of the Hotel Braddock simply began to swell and to spread in every direction, and Harlem exploded.
Notes of a Native Son, 1955, James Baldwin
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/12/02/quote-for-the-day-439/
Lots more of that, please. And other reason-based thinking that “privileges” empiricism.
Thank you tdm.
yeah but,
the reality goes back to wmd
it was a giant mirror
the russians had the mirror positioned in the iraqi desert and it reflected back to the space station also with a mirror which picked up the image of the wmd on location in moscow where Putin – it was nightime there – held the flashlight so the cia could see whats what
http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/297949-clinton-trump-square-off-on-dnc-hacking
For what it’s worth. Trump mostly says he doesn’t know who it is.
But better yet is the first part where HRC is saying she went tolerate State Actors taking private US citizens personal information
I guess she’s unaware of the Snowden Revelations and the US NSA efforts to collect the entire planet’s personal communications and Internet activity.
Trump’s assertions and/or denials mean nothing. He is demonstrably an UNRELABLE SOURCE.
There is evidence, Mona.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/all-signs-point-to-russia-being-behind-the-dnc-hack via @motherboard)
Readers: About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board. I will respond to his substance if anyone whom I deem to be asking in good faith requests that I do so.
It’s not extraordinary for US federal agencies to claim that a foreign government has interfered in a US election? Can you cite any previous examples?
In any case, all claims, ordinary or extraordinary, require evidence to some standard and degree (“preponderance of,” “beyond a reasonable doubt,” etc.) if they are to be accepted by rational people interested in understanding reality rather than confirming their hopes and biases.
So, got evidence?
he has a box of chocolates.
he could not have got those box of chocolates had it not been for russian involvement in the chocolates industry.
a little russian here, a little there, a little everywhere
therefore….
there was a burglary in your area last night.
i notice that you undoubtedly spent money today you didnt spend yesterday….
i have not heard you deny that you were not involved in that burglary…..
veeeeeeeeery eeeeeeenteresting.
Lock Her .. oops, Him Up! Lock Him Up!
Meanwhile, as the FBI and CIA duke it out over who has the best secret report, America is unable to properly count the votes because they are using broken voting machines.
Strange how these stories about America’s faulty elections seem to be of less interest to American reporters until Russia gets thrown into the mix.
People such as Noam Chomsky, Seymour Hersh, Amy Goodman, and Greenwald himself have tirelessly worked their entire careers to lift the veil off the matrix of lies and bullshit emanating from the corporate media, and exposing it to the American public – and mostly to no avail on the grand scale.
Today, the corporate Main Stream media that is hand-in-glove with certain government entities are doing it all on their own – and doing quite the good job of it.
Trump is an idiot, and I didn’t vote for him, but this is the best election EVER!
second!
and fun too.
wups. fone ringin’. it’s putin. gotta go.
How is that Donald Trump,who defeated the richest,smartest,bestest chosen people(their description) in the world,be dumb,or an idiot?
Lucky?
That’s an incredible luck then. A blessing even.
May some of that “luck” help mend the wounds of the american people and their troubled society, you guys will need it.
“Lucky?”
The FBI was better at hacking voting machines than the CIA
FBI code could have trumped the CIA’s code …
Adam Sheef introduces proposed legislation rider – “President Trump is hereby forbidden to accept calls from Mr. Putin or any of his assignees, heirs and proxies. And furthermore vice versa”.
Trump should tell Schiff,any communication with zion will result in immediate arrest and execution.And the rest of Congress.
I vote yea.
We all know this was a late October campaign message. I might be giving the control freaks to much credit.. but, they may have known it could be used after a fail as well. Lead by example People because nobody cares what you think. They only care what you do
What “national security” issue is more important than the integrity of our presidential election process?
If we do not get the cult of Washington secrecy under control, it will be a major issue in the destruction of our democracy.
Glenn, I look forward with great anticipating for the day your critical eye turns to Fox News and your jihad against mainstream liberal sources abates.
I know, cold day in heII.
“Anonymous claims leaked to newspapers about what the CIA believes do not constitute proof, and certainly do not constitute reliable evidence that substitutes for actual evidence that can be reviewed. Have we really not learned this lesson yet?”
Certainly not, until the CIA’s participation in 911 event is investigated.
Wow. I found myself in opposite-land all through the primary process and dear God, it hasn’t stopped yet. I completely applaud Tucker Carlson (makes move to stop gag process) for his steadfastness and (most significantly) mentioning the WMDs of 2003.
Who can be so overtly covert?
Sometimes even covertly overt.
@Greenwald
Don’t you find it interesting that Obama is calling for an investigation that has apparently already been done by the CIA?
Why don’t he know about this report and why the duplicate request?
kleenex!
“That’s all the more reason these debates should be based on publicly disclosed evidence, not competing, unverifiable anonymous leaks from professional liars inside government agencies, cheered by drooling, lost partisans anxious to embrace whatever claims make them feel good, all conducted without the slightest regard for rational faculties or evidentiary requirements.”
Lol.
Glenn Greenwald, I love you. ; )
A lot of talk about undefined “retaliation” against Russia.
Jumping ahead to the penalty stage….assuming Putin goes on national TV, sticks his tongue out and says, “Yeah! It was me, bitches!!!”
What are the US super patriots going to do? Impeach Trump?, Declare martial law? Nuke the planet?
Or maybe put an import tariff on Russian vodka?
no! not that! tariff on russian vodka? shhhhhhhhh. Russia has a secret weapon and doesnt know it! If they threaten to stop shipments, the US would have to surrender. Sig Stolichnaya!
No, just
GreyGoose vodka!
The CIA’s historical record is about 80% propaganda production, 20% covert action. Collecting accurate information is not one of their functions, as the entire Iraq episode should have made clear. No nuclear, chemical or biological weapons programs in Iraq; no ties between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda, and yes, the torture program was initiated to produce false confessions from Al Qaeda captives on the latter issue – exactly how torture was used in regimes such as Stalin’s, to produce false confessions for show trials.
So trusting an “anonymous CIA official” on this is just more fake news, in this case, most likely directed by Obama on behalf of the corporate Democrats who are trying to head off a rebellion in their own party which would result in their fall from positions of power in the DNC, the House, and Senate. A key part of their political survival strategy is to find something, anything, to blame their massive political failure in the election on, besides themselves. Obama, being a member of that clique, is acting on their behalf – it’s a political PR game. This is why “anonymous senior officials” are quoted as the source, while the CIA itself?
“A CIA spokeswoman said the agency had no comment on the matter. ” – Reuters
Really, this kind of media circus is just the American oligarchs trying to maintain their grip on power and continue their inside access to the Democratic and Republican parties, the kind of access and privileges their Russian oligarchic counterparts, such as Gusinsky, Berezovsky and Khodorkovsky, had in the 1990s in Russia. Hillary Clinton was supposed to be their Boris Yeltsin, now she’s gone, and they’re left clutching at straws. Jeff Bezos, owner of the Washington Post, is one of the American oligarchs faced with such a loss of power, but there are quite a few others, aren’t there?
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/10/jeff-bezos-and-pierre-omidyar-our-new-media-media-moguls/280925/
ANd if you believe that’s their motivation, well. . . That’s the same kind of crap the Russian oligarchs had their PR people print about their motives, as well. John D. Rockefeller and Ivy Lee played the same game a century ago.
forgivemeinadvance – cant help it, i’m in stitches over this russia did it stuff, got a box of tissue handy so i can see once in a while. Tucker having to take a call from Putin, quote of the year!
but hey- the cia war manufacturing department has to get financing to pay back hollywood donors for their loses and then get some rights for the next script. There’s a connection there somewhere – maybe an encrypted hotline in case they have questions….
Look for Ollie Stone to make this his next big “historical” production.
The ‘follow the money’ theory of political motivation seems to work more often than not, so my inquisitive mind leads me to wonder what particular financial interest Bezos has in antagonism with Russia. His chief income source is Amazon, not the Washington Poop. Does the Amazon empire not extend into that country? Are there tariffs or restrictions that keep him from signing 2/3 of the entire globe to annual $99 Prime subscriptions with impunity?
Since Putin put the brakes on the oligarchic privatization and plundering of Russia that was set into motion with Yeltsin, those oligarchs naturally want to make him pay. Gutting oil prices didn’t work as well as planned and took too long. The negative consequences extended beyond Russia. Heck, it put into risk all those pipeline dreams running down from the Canadian shale. One would presume that Russia will only benefit from price increases coming from the recent decision to cut production, since they were the chief victim of the cost cutting measures in the first place.
On top of this, Putin saw the writing on the wall and is helping Assad to keep oligarchs and multinationals from building a pipeline through Syria to cut in on Russia’s natural gas market in Europe. That he’s killing off ISIS is no matter because those guys are suddenly proxies of the CIA.
It boggles my mind that nobody can put themselves hypothetically in Putin’s shoes and attempt to see things from the guy’s perspective, even just a little bit. Our self-serving and self-centered media and political elite has not only entirely lost the ability to do that, they won’t even dignify the thought lest they should be accused of empathizing with ‘the enemy’.
To wrap this Russia scare all up in an attempt to censor so-called ‘fake’ news sites brings us to yet another Reichstag Decree moment when our congress will try to take away the 1st amendment out of fear of the Bolshevik threat. Funny how the 1st is always the one under attack while it’s ‘untouchable’ neighbor next door is the one with American blood all over its hands.
It’s funny the liberal-left media spent most of the 20th century telling us that reports of Russian influence were completely made up nonsense (which wasn’t really true). Now they’re everywhere!
lol. could be the political parties trade blame games. Hey, that’s my line. No it isnt, i said it first. No you didnt because i suggested it first. Oh yeah, but i implied it first. So what, i just filed for a trademark on it. Yeah? well my patent application will supercede your trademark. So? i’m gonna use it anyway – sue me. Really? i’ll write a law and make it illegal for you to use it.
I wouldn’t put it past the Russians. They’re good at spying! They practically ran MI-6 because the British were dumb as rocks.
Thats cuz the “Democrats” making these claims are mega-parsecs from being “left”. They are the Reagan/GW Bush/Cheney/McGoon “Democrats”, for whom the deaths of 1.5 million Iraqis, among whom were at least half a million children, were “worthy it”.
Don’t confuse me with the facts. I cherish my opinions and beliefs. Your failure to validate me is micro-aggression and you are shouldn’t be permitted to spread this hurtful stuff.
Wow!!! So many Drumpf supporters and Putin puppies on this comment thread. Makes me wonder about this website which is so very sympathetic to Russia. What are you doing here in the U.S.? Or are you all living in Russia? Sure sounds like it.
what a loser.
millions and millions and millions spent in an attempt to LIE HELLARY INTO OFFICE and it FAILED!
what losers. all that money, gone.
all the lies, exposed.
first it was bernie, then it was comey, then it was russia, then it was fake news, then it was voting fraud…
losing doesnt make one a loser
denying having lost makes one a loser.
Do svidaniya!
That was meant for jabberingfool1.
There’s that good ‘ol McCarthyism we’ve been missing!
You sound like someone who has never held a passport and would regard it as un-American to do so.
Whatever opinions may be expressed by critics of the most recent anonymous whispering campaign based on no factual evidence are more likely motivated by how grimly wrong past assurances of certainty by “intelligence agencies” have led us tragically into stupid wars. These agencies are often wrong, but never in doubt. And nobody really controls them who is answerable to the public.
Also, of course, it’s pretty obvious most top intelligence people will soon be out of work. They have nothing to loose by leaving behind one very last work of fiction as part of the “legacy”. Indeed, it appears they have been ordered to produce one by election day.
Most adults, by now, have about had enough of the constant official lying from this government (and others before it) in an effort to hype the threat of an external adversary to distract attention from their own fumbling incompetence and misdeeds. The question is whether the US can be successful without constant war.
Apparently you don’t share that concern.
If you have not, I suggest you watch award-nominated “Wag the Dog”. It’s a rich comedy only because it’s a parody about antics of a desperate presidential campaign. And when it was released, nobody had any doubt about the real characters who inspired it.
Who knows? Perhaps now there will be a sequel “Wag the Dog II”. There’s surely a ton of risible new material available now, regardless of who was responsible for making it public.
LOL! I meant of course Inauguration Day.
This is what i call – alt-left ;-)
But of course we have to believe what the CIA says it found, because its the CIA, not the guys who found the ‘evidence’ that ‘proved’ Saddam had WMDs minutes from launch.
Oops, sorry, just checked and it turns out that it is the same guys, but that was for the previous President, ancient history, and besides, they promised to change, so we have to give them the benefit of a doubt, after all, it isn’t like they’re the same guys who keep stating that there’s all these moderates fighting the Syrian government whenever Obama needs evidence of such people to serve as a reason to send weapons and ammo to Syria. That alQeda keeps somehow being the ones getting handed the packages would make whatever they said rather suspect.
Uh oh, that pesky fact check function of mine just corrected me, turns out they are those guys. But surely we can at least trust Obama, its not as if he claimed that there was all sorts of evidence that Iran had a nuclear weapons program, until he felt he needed a ‘win’ at which point all those concerns suddenly became manageable, and he adopted a position much closer to the one the on site investigations support.
Does anyone know how to adjust the settings on these fact check functions? Mine just pointed out that Obama did indeed go from absolute belief in Iran having a nuclear weapons program (a belief founded in the same sort of mindset that the believers in him being a Kenyan born secret Muslim, like, for instance, the President Elect, have) until he found it suited his purposes to change his level of belief in that conspiracy theory.
GG: “FBI Director James Comey … a letter that was pretty clearly harmful to Clinton”
Er, say what? I thought Democrats arguing for assignment of significant responsibility to Comey for the outcome of the election were a bunch of whining losers desperate to avoid looking in the mirror yada yada yada etc. etc. No?
eh?
The dumb&dumbers of the Democratic Party Campaign leaders are LILLY HOPPING, fool.
Do you know what LILLY HOPPING is?
Do you get your feet and clothes wet, and the bottom just mught give away?
there appears to be a conflict; the acknowledgement of the FBI influencing the presidential election occurs when it works within a broader narrative, and quickly discounted as evidence of whigning™ when it suits.
see: opportunism ad logicum
Exit polling doesn’t demonstrate voters being significantly influenced by the Comey letter. However, I’ve seen some sound reasoning to the effect that it could have somewhat depressed Clinton’s turnout.
Those Democrats remaining in the fold are still desperately trying the “throw shit at the wall and see what sticks” method of reasoning.
Which ultimately means that, because they’re not relying on accurate reasons for why (bad) things are happening in their life, they get to continue to see any remaining credibility go down the drain as well.
This whole Russia thing has the feeling of a game of telephone gone out of control. Each new claim made is used to prove prior, lesser ones.
I swear it all happened inside 2 or 3 weeks last summer – a moral panic playing out in the digital age. Russia went from barely mentioned to (in the most extreme of the pronouncements) Trump being a Manchurian candidate.
Yet what evidence has been presented about even the most basic, initial claims, such as Russia being behind the hack of the DNC? Wikileaks itslef said that there were multiple hacks of the DNC and I believe that, by the end, they took the extraordinary step of denying the Russian government was the leaker.
lol. How long will it be before the blame for this falls on Mr. Snowden?
Greenwald, you pathetic clown, you’re just dismissing all the evidence with a “nuh-uh” and then saying the evidence doesn’t exist.
Um, what evidence can you produce, Cal?
showmethemoney
What evidence?
What troll?
The next Democratic Supporter talking point
Now that The Secret Report is out, it is sure to be followed by the dysfunctional and illogical claim by Clinton supporters to anyone not blindly accepting it’s Secret Conclusions, to prove the Report is False.
This has been the trend in recent weeks whereby people make absurd claims and attempt to place burden of proof on those who question those absurd claims or demand factual evidence by requesting to prove the original claim false.
If Democrats want the world to believe Russia is responsible, then they are responsible for providing the evidence publicly.
The actual contents of this report may not be known for years, but I’m willing to bet it comes to this conclusion regarding Russian interference: INCONCLUSIVE
There appears to be a lot of unproven claims on both sides. Plenty of Trump supporters saying pizzagate is proof of Cinton being a pedophile. I would be willing to bet there is less chance of that than the Russians hacking emails and trying to help Trump.
Well, yeah, probably less chance — but there appears to be exactly the same amount of credible publicly-available evidence for either or both: none.
There appears to be a lot of unproven claims on both sides.
Nope. Not if one of those “sides” is represented by Greenwald and those of us who agree with his reasoning in articles such the one above.
So-called Pizzagate is an unwarranted conspiracy theory for which facts and sound reasoning do not penetrate its advocates’ minds.
By contrast, Greenwald (who endorses Obama’s plan to have an investigation), and most of the rest of us, takes this position as stated by Greenwald above:
That approach is the direct opposite of the Pizzagate enthusiasts, for whom evidence is irrelevant and their reasoning generally fallacious.
That first sentence is a quote from Gill, and should be formatted thus:
(My kingdom for a preview and/or edit function here.)
If we are talking about Clinton supporters being one side then Trump supporters are the other.
As for:
“drooling, lost partisans anxious to embrace whatever claims make them feel good,”
thats appears to be true of every possible side represented on TI both above and below the line.
I suppose that depends on how one determines what constitutes a “side.” For myself, and based on virtually everything I’ve seen from Glenn over the course of two decades, he and I care about facts and fallacy-free reasoning. As well as reasonableness. We’re not alone, as represented both above and below the line.
“As well as reasonableness. ”
Yep basically when you think it reasonable based on your already held political beliefs you are ready to embrace claims that make you feel good whether there is evidence or not.
There isn’t anything reasonable about that sentence in that it doesn’t address the point being made. Which is that demanding evidence rather than anonymous claims–especially claims by professional liars and, um, also politicians– fits perfectly well into the definition of “reasonableness.” Now, if you’d like to claim, as your sentence more than suggests, that the same can be said of those who believe in so called “Pizzagate,” well, to use an old and worn phrase, I rest my case.
My point is some demand evidence only when the claim counters their already held belief.
For example Glenn needed no proof to claim those “smearing” Keith Ellison were Islamophobic.
Actually, pizzagate is preposterous on its very face. Whereas, I find it way too convenient that a Secret Report by the CIA has just come out that Obama seems to have been unaware of.
Isn’t the president receiving daily briefings? And if so, why is he now ordering an investigation that appears to have already been done by the CIA? Why didn’t he know about the imminent release of a CIA report?
Why the duplicate request?
These are the questions missed by many that I’m wondering about.
Fair enough. I don’t see where the latest claims are connected to a specific report, it seems more a case of evidence being uncovered in an on going fashion. I also can’t think of any nefarious reason Obama could have for ordering a report to look at “what went wrong” which on it’s face would appear to be concentrated on how we can prevents such attacks from happening.
On December 9, yesterday, Obama calls for an investigation.
On December 10, the CIA release a report (presumably after a completed investigation) concluding Russian involvement.
That’s pretty quick work for a government agency, don’t ya think?
Obama seems unaware of the impending CIA report issuance. The timing seems weird to me is all.
Usually, there’s a call for an investigation, then months, if not years go by, and a report is issued.
This all took place in the last 24 hours.
Trips with Epstein make them pedos.
For sure! Glenn, given that Snowden is being given asylum by the Russkies my usual fervor for your ACLU type views on first amendment rights are mildly feeling conflicted.I ageee that anonymous sources are not authoritative proof but be it Comey plus fake news, plus Diebold machines with no paper trail easily hacked or intentionally programmed by Red state’s voting operatives this election. Is a Shite storm of epic c proportions with election of an incompetent commander on chief that seems to have a clear mental disorder (narcissistic mania plus FUBAR education and ADHD? Col) .. it’s truly a scary day that this man could be difference of a safe planet or Armageddon ., or I’m not in violent ageeement with you norndisagreement but I wonder what saying accept this outcome with 2 million plus popular vote win says about our new Banana Republic.. 2000 (2004 Ohio?) now 2016 no standardized voting in tech leading nation? Perhaps less spying on good citizens and more assurance of valid elections might be a start for CIA/NSA but what fun is it supporting will of people? Only fun is controlling the world as we see fit.. sad day either way..
I have seen only a tiny bit about HRC being a pedophile,possibly Obomba,for hosting the alleged WH party,more about Bent Dick,and much more regarding the Podestas.
Is any of it true?Could be,with the character of all these liars being abysmal,so it is possible,but of course definite proof I haven’t seen.
Remember the Menendez investigation?hahaha?Well,it was Jeffrey Epstein,so there is definitely some smoke here.
And Trump has also been accused by demoncrats,but the Podesta’s certainly seem to be rated (lowest)highest.
Why with Hillary Clinton guaranteed victory,with even Assange saying a shoe in,one way or the other,would the Russians risk ww3 by interfering in our democracy,knowing she would retaliate?
And the hillaryous thing is,we’ve interfered with theirs since the commies dissolved.Hillaryous.
So I would say human corruption(pedophilia)much more likely than Russian interference,although,again,I’ve seen nothing but weird coincidences?,like pizza signs resembling pedo code crap.
Glenn, is it possible to query Snowden about whether NSA could perform a break-in and leave behind “evidence” making it appear the sortie was conducted by an actor for a third nation not actually involved?
I’m assuming if NSA has that capability then other state-sponsored or rogue actors likely do also and whatever “fingerprints” were left behind may be a plant.
You don’t need to ask Snowden. Just ask any competent security expert, senior systems engineer or administrator, or a smart hacker.
The answer is a resounding “Yes!” and it wouldn’t take the NSA to do it.
Even individual idiots have figured out that the best way to throw suspicion of themselves for a crime is to play to the prejudices of the investigators. Think of the person who said the shooting was done by a young Black carjacker or something similar. When you hack, you need to fake what computer you’re operating from, and the more times you can do that, the better (see basically every TV show and movie where hacking is part of the storyline) and faking ones where you know whoever is tracking you is going to want to stop would seem to me to be a ploy that would occur to even a ten year old.
Entirely agree with replies above this one. However, the source of evidence is important as to its credibility.
The three necessary elements for commission of a crime are means, motive, and opportunity. Motive and opportunity can be assumed without risk if a break-in actually occurred.
But the important question is who has the means. And who can credibly confirm that?
Whichever state actors are independently and reliably confirmed to have means to cover themselves with fake pointers to others should be immediately placed on the suspect list. My guess is that a list of named suspects could be very long, indeed.
It is not only Russians who may have an interest in disrupting the election, as this newly spawned “story” plainly demonstrates. And given the published documents about DNC operatives paid to thug the Trump rallies, it doesn’t seem out of character that a bit of “coordination” with the various news outlets would be right in line with previous behavior.
Sudden “consensus” agreement by the “intelligence community” that Russia must have done the break-ins does smack of being the final leg of a “just-so” story which has been running for months.
Especially if Russia is not the only state actor with that capability but the only one, nevertheless, which is officially touted as the stage villain for this latest political passion play.
Actually DT has denied that #RussianHacking ever occurred.
Magnificent last paragraph of an equally magnificent essay.
This is hilarious. From Milton Wiltmellow:
It doesn’t get much better than that.
I hereby nominate “inferential evidence” for the 2016 Orwell Wishes He’d Thought of That prize.
And “monumental!” at that. Becasue Rosenbergs and Hanssen.
My little mind boggles.
I misspoke (mis-wrote?).
Kafka would be even more appropriate than Orwell.
Also, buried deep, deep down in both NYT and WaPs story, Glenn, was this little nugget …
“Pssst. .. run this down the street” *anonymous officials
You are an unbiased observer right Glenn? Clearly you have some scars from being hunted for so long. If you want evidence you should ask your own staff. Please.
the wmd cia fakers have taken their fake fony farsical fiction to the Brit media.
Russia ‘intervened to promote Trump’ – US intelligence – BBC News
PressTV-Russia fueling terror threat in UK: MI6
Russia and Assad ‘creating new generation of terrorists who will be threat to us all’, MI6 warns | The Independent
Head of MI6: Britain faces ‘fundamental threat to sovereignty from Russian meddling’
These warmonsters love war now. They dont mind amping things up to crank up military contracts even if it means getting your sons and daughters killed. Look what PBS is doing – featuring women marines for combat. sick. Remember, insane Hellary favored drafting women.
restated:
They dont mind amping things up to crank up military contracts
evenespecially if it means getting your sons and daughters killed.This would be the next phase of corruption whereby the rationale gets into the personality structure and seeks to reconcile overpopulation on the planet.
Mr. Greenwald has ignored nothing. He has rather brilliantly pointed out yet another grave instance of horrible state of ‘journalism’ in the USA, and how the compliant beneficiaries and victims enable it.
Mr. Greenwald
You are treating the Russian government like a client in a college debate. You ignore Russian motivation for influencing an election in the US; you ignore that German intelligence is also accusing Russia of interference in their election process; you ignore indirect evidence from cyber security experts presented by Mackey in an Intercept article; and you also ignore that Edward Snowden indicated that the US would know if Russia hacked the DNC.
“…….That’s all the more reason these debates should be based on publicly disclosed evidence, not competing, unverifiable anonymous leaks from professional liars inside government agencies……”
Let’s also not forget that Russian spy agencies are also professional liars – and that Russia had a stake in the US election considering they are currently under US and EU sanctions for their illegal annexation of the Crimea Peninsula. Trump campaigned on developing closer ties to the Russian government while Hillary threatened to enforce a no-fly zone in Syria. Hillary maintained a hard line approach to Russian imperialism. Indeed, Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State when Russia was booted out of Ukraine and began supporting a war in Eastern Ukraine. The Russians certainly had the motives which you neglect in this article – and it’s an important point.
Finding conclusive evidence that the Russian were behind the hack of the DNC is difficult. Mackey outline some of the evidence in his article (“If Russian intelligence did hack the DNC, the NSA would know, Snowden says” http://bit.ly/2aurlJe by @RobertMackey). Interestingly enough, Snowden believes based on his expertise that the US government would know if the Russians hacked the DNC. So when US intelligence says they believe with a “high degree of confidence” that the Russians were behind the hack of the DNC, while this may not be conclusive, it is very serious. This was the case for the Sony Pictures hack in which the US government concluded (early on) that the North Korean government was behind the hack. Some cyber-security firms were skeptical. In an Intercept article, you railed against the US government at the time of the hack for the same “lack of evidence”. However, the US leveled sanctions against North Korea because of the cyber-attack so the evidence was apparently strong enough to warrant action. In the Mackey article, Snowden confirmed that the FBI “presented evidence” against the North Korean government.
You also ignored that German intelligence (and Merkel) also believes that the Russians are interfering in their election process (New York Times: “German Intel Agency: Russia Is Trying to Destabilize Germany”, 12-8-2016):
“………BERLIN — Russia is trying to destabilize German society with propaganda and cyberattacks ahead of the country’s general election, Germany’s domestic intelligence agency said Thursday……..The warning was the bluntest public claim yet from Germany’s BfV agency about Moscow’s alleged campaign of disinformation and hacking targeting Europe’s biggest economy…….”There is growing evidence of attempts to influence the federal election next year,” said the BfV’s head, Hans-Georg Maassen, citing “increasingly aggressive cyberespionage” against political entities in Germany……..”
So let’s be careful about jumping to any rash conclusions…….
the Oded Yinon plan has been flushed down the toilet and into the sewer to float amongst the other turds.
is that the plan where anti-Semites posing as anti-zionists accuse zionists of crucifing Jesus, Barb?
jews are not zions
zions are not jews
if you do not know that, read.
Dr. Hajo Mayer, a holocaust survivor
also
http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/jews-against-zionists.html
Jesus is your friend.
You ignore Russian motivation for influencing an election in the US; you ignore that German intelligence is also accusing Russia of interference in their election process; you ignore indirect evidence from cyber security experts presented by Mackey in an Intercept article; and you also ignore that Edward Snowden indicated that the US would know if Russia hacked the DNC.
You’re a piece of work.
Under an article about the importance of NOT accepting assertions by anonymous officials who present no actual evidence (and who he proved are willing to lie over and over again when it suits them), and who may (or may not) have sinister motivations (as shown in the proof provided of their previous lies), you insist that Greenwald accept unknown motivations of Russians (who have yet to be proven responsible), assertions by unnamed officials of a foreign government, indirect evidence – i.e. MORE ASSERTIONS by unnamed, unchallenged “experts” – because, Mackey something something, and Snowden’s statement that the US government “would know” as some sort of evidence that what they DO know is what you want to believe.
L.O.L.
I would not be surprised in the least to find that Russia commits the same sort of actions that we know the US has not hesitated to commit in other countries time and time again, but making that assumption still doesn’t constitute the sort of evidence/proof that grown folks with any sort of critical thinking skills – given the copious examples above – ought to have learned by now is what the public deserves, instead of rank propaganda designed to manipulate us into acceptance of narratives that are so demonstrably self-serving to the people who think themselves worthy of ruling over us.
But go ahead and line up to lap that crap up, craig. You do it so well there’s really no need for the rest of us to join you. Especially those of us who’ve finally become wise to, and tired of, the fact that we seem to always get fed the same old slop over and over again.
Pedinska
“……..Under an article about the importance of NOT accepting assertions…….L.O.L…….”
I am not certain you read more than the first paragraph, but I do like your opinion. There is a significant amount of evidence that Russia hacked into the DNC based on US intelligence, and independent sources named by Mackey in the linked article from my previous comment – certainly far more than Greenwald gave when he accused the US of interfering in the Brazilian impeachment/coup. In his June article about the impeachment of Rousseff in Brazil (“After Vote to Remove Brazil’s President, Key Opposition Figure Holds Meetings in Washington”), Greenwald writes:
“……Many on the Brazilian left believe that the U.S. is actively engineering the current instability in their country in order to get rid of a left-wing party that has relied heavily on trade with China……”
Even in his article, he mentioned there was no proof, but that didn’t keep him from winging out the accusation. Pretty difficult for Greenwald to lecture anyone about unsourced or unnamed sources, right?
Certainly Russia had the motives (as I showed) to commit the cyber-crime. Greenwald is a lawyer and understands how important motive is to a crime. Mackey links to an article which sums up the current evidence for involvement of Russia in the hack of the DNC. He notes the credentials of Thomas Rid (“All Signs Point to Russia Being Behind the DNC Hack” http://motherboard.vice.com/read/all-signs-point-to-russia-being-behind-the-dnc-hack via @motherboard):
“…….While we wait to see if the NSA will take its most famous former employee’s advice, it is worth reading a thorough review of the evidence produced so far, compiled for Motherboard by Thomas Rid, a professor at King’s College London who has charted the use of hacking for espionage…….”
You make it sound like someone is just making this up. Is there currently definitive proof that Russia hacked the DNC. No. Is it plausible based on motive and evidence presented so far that Russia hacked the DNC? Yes. Should I just stay quiet until definitive proof is presented? Fuck no, why?
Yeah Craig…like Nuland said ‘ F the EU’. Feel happy now ?
It needed to be said, and someone had to say it……
‘knowing’ is completely different from ‘believing’ (even with a ‘high degree of confidence’). If Snowden says the nsa would know, he means there would be no need for ‘believing’. If the russians would have done it, the nsa would be able to produce evidence thereof. This is not the case, therefor snowden says the russians did not do it.
Martin
Believe is like faith or the tooth fairy. As I pointed out, there is evidence backing the claim that Russia was behind the DNC hack. WE will just have to wait and see how the investigation turns out, OK?
Great article Mr. Greenwald. Over here in Europe the MSM this morning was repeating the same nonsense WaPo and NYTimes are trying to spread. It seems they try by all means to destroy any credibility they have left…….The more they promote such fake journalism, the more they help Trump. The president-elect time and tima again shows that he is ‘man’ enough to defend himself, now comparing this story to the so-called WMD saga. Images of Colin Powell presenting so called intelligence to the UN general assembly come to mind. My advice is to read the published Podesta e-mails and it will scare the hell out of you…how such a powerful organisation as the DNC uses such deceitful tactics.
Except that Trump’s (and actually Giuliani’s) comments before the election and Trump’s cabinet picks indicate, shall we say, certain proclivities towards particular interests that would please Russia.
There is no comparison between the run-of-the-mill political maneuvering apparent in the Podesta emails, which is analogous to the GOP’s own (if we ever see it, and oh, I believe we will) and this story. Clinton being a poor choice as a candidate doesn’t negate the story that dropped yesterday.
By the way, since you mention him, Powell utilized a personal computer tied to a private phone line to do business with foreign leaders and State Department officials.
Watch your double standards.
VfE didn’t say a thing about the State Department and the use of computes or phone lines.
Watch your non sequiturs.
Over 70% of Russians wanted Trump to win, but no one in the US state-sponsored media asks why. We’re to believe that a country twice the size of the US with half the population of the US is itching to invade Estonia (because Russia needs more land?) but needs a compliant US president. Maybe Russians preferred Trump because Hillary Clinton is a crazed warmonger who lit Syria ablaze, threatened to respond to any Russian hacking wth a nuclear attack and whose husband expanded NATO up to Russia’s doorstep.
The Powell episode shows how fake intelligence can lead to wars ! And as for double standards I would say: there are no good bombs, n’est- ce pas Mademoiselle !
Fine.
Which forum do you suggest to reveal the truth?
The Congress controlled by Republicans who benefit — enormously — from concealing Russian interference?
The courts, where thanks to Republicans, the political partisanship disallows effective and impartial action (see Bush v. Gore in 2000 or the refusal to vote on current SCOTUS nominee)?
RT?
Murdoch news outlets?
The internet?
A Breitbart documentary?
Whether or not true, the mere accusation with inferential evidence of Russia influencing the outcome of the US election is as monumental as the Rosenbergs stealing the Abomb or FBI agent Robert Hanssen spying for the Russians.
Being so important, what sort of forum do you propose — other than this sober and unbiased group of journalist-warriors at the Intercept?
Yes. This accusation should be thoroughly and publicly investigated, but an impartial investigation of the facts is about as likely as the Petroleum Institute sponsoring an unbiased public seminar on climate change..
So how do you propose to give a public account without relying on dubious State sources?
Perhaps soon to be president Trump will offer something great. As he famously said during the campaign: It could be Russia. And it could be China. And it could be some guy in his home in New Jersey.
As you bulldoze the new highway leading to the Trump House at 1600 Trump Avenue in DC, perhaps you can offer all of us pathetic Trumpophobes — we wretched losers — some hope for an independent forum.
“sober and unbiased group of journalist-warriors at the Intercept”
I suspect many (most?) TI readers would agree Glenn is the sole contributor who is habitually both “sober and unbiased”, thus an excellent journalist. Some of the others are a complete waste of space.
Despite all the high horses, among the steaming piles of insults and invective left behind the parade, not a single credible response to a very simple question, even obvious question.
Good show — like a Veterans Day parade in Hiroshima.
If anyone wonders why attendance is down, just listen to yourselves.
When you get confronted with such a clamor about Russia interfering in US elections and you see that the liberation of Aleppo by the Syrian army is imminent, that the rebels are faltering and al Nusra receding, that the US foreign policy in Syria is in disarray and a complete failure, then the clamor doesn’t surprise anymore and you will see clear again that they don’t have more proof now that Russia was in fact involved than they had when they insinuated this last time.
In his interview with John Pilger (on RT recently), Julian Assange did state that the source of the emails is not Russia. In an earlier interview on Fox news, Assange pointed to the murder of Seth Rich, the DNC staffer shot from behind shortly after the leak, stating that the sources who upload the information to Wikileaks take risks. It is certainly way more likely that an insider leaked the emails, in face of the grave facts they reveal. It could even have been the NSA itself, who doesn’t like Hillary because of her misuse of classified information. In short, there are many sources that are more likely than the Russians. Nor is Putin quite so all-powerful that he would have time to orchestrate every detail down to email hacks. Nor is there any certainty that Putin preferred Trump over Hillary. Some people in Russia did, but they are not directly involved in government. Like in the west, there are a plethora of opinions in Russia. And what one politician or opinion writer or another says is not the official standpoint, though the US MSM hardly thinks their is such a difference. Russia presumably prefers Trump because of one sentence Putin said: that he thinks Trump is a very colorful person.But nobody really knows what Putin thinks or wants.
But why is there so little attention given to the fact that 4 people were killed in connection with the primaries? There is Seth Rich, the DNC staffer. Then there is the lead lawyer in a law suit alleging voting fraud in the primaries who was killed. The main witness for that trial was also killed. Why is there so little information on any investigation of there murders? Wouldn’t that be more important than who hacked the emails? Even assuming Russia hacked the emails, it still isn’t Russia who interfered with the elections, it is the content of the emails and Hillary’s criminality that did her in. And that information certainly belonged in the public realm.
I don’t want to pick on George Takei, but I think his tweet shows how desperate and panicked many Americans are to grasp onto any hope that their Trump nightmare will end:
Can’t wait till the next secret CIA report determines that all Japanese Americans should be sent back to the WWII era internment camps!!
Two corrections.
It’s not much of a secret if you listened to the campaign.
It won’t be the Japanese. It will be Latinos.
Between their drug fueled raping and their deportation, 11 million people will need to be housed and fed. These deportation camps be renamed by the soon to be established Department of Greatness.
The new Secretary of Greatness, Erik Trump, will call these camps something more fit for the coming years of greatness like Rural Achievement Hostels or Pre-Deportation Bed and Breakfast.
It won’t be the Japanese. It will be Latinos. […]
And don’t forget the Haitians.
Erik Trump, will call these camps something more fit for the coming years of greatness like Rural Achievement Hostels or Pre-Deportation Bed and Breakfast.
Jeh Johnson calls them detention beds. Of course the number of beds needed for the B&B have been much smaller under Obama, likely because he has been so much more successful at getting them deported than previous administrations.
Catch and release…..yeah, can’t have that happening for actual, you know, humans.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/23/number-illegal-immigrants-detention-surges-20-perc/
#FN During the fund raising meeting in hollywood prior to the election, the quest went out for “the edge” for the win and the answer was a yet unfilmed script. Well it didnt work as planned by the denial continues and Adam Schiff is playing the part of Jerry Fletcher.
‘Membah the time the CIA said Iraq was swimming in WMD’S and we had to roll in there to kill Saddam before he blew up the planet? I ‘Membah!
Elegantly and eloquently formulated and executed. Thanks, Glenn.
Yet again, you save me hours and days of splainin': “Read this, carefully, and get back to me when you understand the points Greenwald makes.”
~Doug
The partisan opponents of Greenwald’s piece so far have nothing to say about this, my emphasis:
Telling, that silence.
why do you push the narrative that those that have the temerity to disagree are partisan?
….and that they’re opponents?
here’s a framing concept: some think there are worthy subjects of inquiry that aren’t being given their due….
…and that may have to do with an editorial construct.
just a thought (smiley face)
Your “thought” is without merit. What “some” think are “worthy subjects” is not a substantive response to my comment. Which is standard for you.
Merit.
right
take a look in the mirror, Mona….
…you know, for some evidence of what a fucking tool looks like
More ad hominem does not substantive replies make, RMD.
shakes head
you really ought to come up with something new
are you tired?
The very specific quote Mona posted is clearly about a partisan opponent claiming their interlocutor should work for RT. I don’t see how she could have made that more clear.
This is standard for RMD. Look at how s/he carried on here. S/he posts a loaded inquiry; it is met with evidence; s/he ignores that and proceeds with whining.
Mona’s very ‘go to’ bag of tricks starts and ends with ad hominem, while ignoring facts.
That’s just how it rolls
No one familiar with both my posting style and with yours is going to believe that. Indeed, I’m somewhat notorious for documenting my substantive claims.
When I *do* call someone a name it is either accompanied by substantive response, or after, based on extensive experience of them, I have rationally concluded they are, in fact, a tool. And I can document why I’ve reached that conclusion. Based on their inability and/or unwillingness to address facts they find displeasing — people like you.
You lather yourself in self congratulatory assessments while committing the very acts charged against others.
You have not addressed my charges… you like to, however, engage in selective argumentation, some call ‘cherry picking’ of rebuttals to those topics that suit your, by now, glaringly obvious narrative thrust; hence the reference to polemicist, in case you hadn’t noticed.
Talking and talking about your favored topics…while ignoring others is an intellectually suspect strategy, a marker of lawyers, not that of empiricists.
a trick that works for those given to confirmation bias….
“No one familiar with both my posting style and with yours is going to believe that. Indeed, I’m somewhat notorious for documenting my substantive claims.”
Yes, but what of the rest of your “claims”?
RMD:
Mona is one of the most fact based commentators in these threads. You are wrong!
I responded to Mona on a personal level. It is a longstanding scrum wrt her making ad hominem attacks on those who take other views.
I do not, ever, make ad hominem attacks inappropriately. You do. As a matter of course.
you are a liar. and you engage in character assassination as a credibility impeachment strategy to bolster the appearance of your argument.
transparent bullshit, in other words.
I don’t have the time or need to dredge up your history of unwarranted and untrue allegations and smears…
You do it. You know you do. And those who read your fucking effluent stained broadsides are very familiar.
Fuck you.
Thanks Glenn. I greatly appreciate the discussion on how utterly corrupt the Democratic Party is – it is even more obvious with this piece and the interview with Tucker Carleson at the end. Keep up the great work ! Blaming Putin without real evidence is only something the morally bankrupt Dems could conceive of.
This is part of how they are trained to operate. They can even manufacture fake evidence, let alone fake news. Most of what we read in print is fake anyways.
Michael Parenti says:
and from Zinn:
The kind of things revealed in the DNC and Podesta emails were the things the Republican party wears on its sleeve. There was little pretense that the Republicans as an organization wanted Trump until he was forced on him and even then very powerful forces in the Republican party refused to endorse him.
The Republicans don’t hide the fact they have contempt for the working class, any country that isn’t the USA or Israel, and the concept of morality in general.
So maybe deep in the basement of the former KGB building the cyber ninjas who miraculously hacked into Fortress DNC and the Podesta Citadel couldn’t find any use for hacked RNC emails either way.
I wonder why no one looked into Assange’s hint that Seth Rich who was murdered in DC may have been the source for the DNC stuff or if that was something his Kremlin handlers suggested for him to plant.
It’s called “projection”, people.
The US ruling class interferes with US society and molests the world daily.
Sensational allegations– from the discredited pro-Empire experts, Deep State operatives, politicians, and propagandists– about supposed “Russian” interference do not change the fact that the US-based ruling class is the foremost enemy of “democracy in America.”
Don’t get it twisted.
Just the way that the US government officials and military “leaders” and pundits insist that America is under attack from outside — even while the US state is attacking and raping and looting country after country and killing millions of civilians around the world — these ruling class servants are once again inverting who is the victim and who is the aggressor.
They’re washing their hands of the blood that they spill and are trying to convince you that Russia is to blame.
Don’t get it twisted.
They are the ones who are aggressive toward the 99% of humanity here and abroad. They are the ones who undermine democracy wherever it is germinating or stirring in the imaginations of over-exploited or oppressed peoples. They are the ones who inflict violence illegitimately.
And now they come screaming to you with false charges that “Russia was interfering”.
Great post. That is exactly the way it is.
Greenwald is the Thunder-Thief. Stealing MSM Thunder… Daily. Awesome!
Brand Obama and the ruling class’ ongoing anti-Russia propaganda campaign
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/12/10/pers-d10.html
Nah; Greenwald. You #FAIL. Too, linear concrete. Too, specific. Too, rational. Too, unsuited for “these times.” Too, politically unmoored. Too, tidy. Too, lawyerly.
What is needed here is some good old fashioned random abstract analysis for this post-truth world. :p
I waded thru pages of hyperventilating standard news “experts” this morning, getting a sinking feeling that no one was going to put this into the context that we need. Then I found this. Thanks.
nb:
Why on earth would you do that?
Let’s start with what we DO know.
Wikileaks receives material anonymously. They analyze what they receive based on it’s content, they are unable to query the leaker. If the leaker was the Russian government. The leaker could take steps to disquise that fact.
The CIA has it’s own sources. It is plausible that heir human and electronic methods could be able to determine if it was the Russian government that obtained and then distributed the Podesta emails.
If The Russian government leaked the emails, there would be no way for Donald Trump to know that, unless, for some unknown reason, the Russian government told him.
The Russian government just like the US government, employs many people, some of whom could be described as private “hackers”, so the distinction is for all intents and purposes, immaterial.
Ultimately, did the Russian government prefer a certain US election outcome? Well Marine Le Pen of France wanted Trump to win, and is happy he did. Many leaders around the world were hoping Clinton would win. Is it plausible that Putin in Russia had no preference. No it isn’t.
Is it plausible that the Russian government use it’s formidable intelligence assets to help Trump? I would say so if they thought there interference would not actually end up harming the candidate they preferred.
Should Americans guard against potential Russian interference? Yes. But they should also stop doing far worse things to other countries. What’s worse, releasing embarrassing emails….or assassinating democratically elected leaders?
So just because the leaks didn’t come from a government.ru email address, Assange knows for certain the Russians had nothing to do with it?
I don’t know if Assange knows. If you had read my other comment you’d realize, or you should be able to realize, I was factually rebutting JLocke’s comment, “they [Wikileaks] are unable to query the leaker.” Assange has said that that is not the case. You can choose to believe Assange or not, that’s not my argument in this instance one way or the other.
Hi Kitt, I look at it this way: Imagine if Snowden, instead of going to GG, had dropped his docs off at Wikileaks. And imagine if contrary to what they say is their standard anonymous procedure, Assange knew it was government contractor Snowden who dropped it off.
Would it have been the “US government” that gave the Snowden docs to Wikileaks? Without extensive interogation, of the sort GG and co. did of Snowden, how would Assange determine how autonomous such a hypothetical Snowden was? And how high up the chain of command would the decision to leak the docs have to be in order to say they are from “the US government”?
A “Russian Snowden” working for the government, hypothetically might have been operating on orders of an imediate superior, or orders from Putin himself, or anyone inbetween.
So I choose to interpret Assange’s denial as a way of, as he says preventing the speculation being “used to distract”
And then of course, even if Assange has high levels of certainty that the emails are from a source distinct from any government, which is entirely possible, Assange may be entirely wrong.
While some or most of that speculation is reasonable to consider, my point in posting Assange’s statement was to directly rebut your comment, which you stated as fact rather than speculation, that Wikileaks is “unable to query the leaker,” when Assange himself had claimed otherwise.
Entirely fair point Kitt.
Tucker Carlson has been doing pretty good work lately.
Listening to American politicians bloviate is actually painful. It remind me of an Amazon Prime series called BrainDead.
https://www.amazon.com/BrainDead-Season-1/dp/B01H0KBQS2
a thousand thanks to fighting back on the msm fake media push for more war!
that link to TC thrashing of the lying congress guy is a MUST SEE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRkeGkCjdHg
and a thanks to TC as well.
truth to power!
I appreciate the clear thinking here as usual, on a topic seriously in need of discussion in publoc… that of media practices like anonymous sources.
Mr. Greenwald is also a good example of using links for background information, much appreciated by those of us who dig into stories behind stories.
That said, as a previous commenter noted – the use of “drooling,” “breathlessly” and similar termstatements could well be dropped without making this less hard-hitting and adroit commentary.
It gives me great relief to see polemicists polemicize. Rhetorician’s rhetoric in advancing a narrative soothes my need to feel my longstanding biases are valid.
TI adherents can neatly subsume the following as evidence free denialist whining, right?
• No need to analyze the FBI’s role in throwing a Presidential election.
• No need to examine the Trump / Russia nexus
• No need to examine calls by Trump for Russia to hack the government
• No need to examine vote suppression efforts
• No need to examine suppression of recounts
• No need to look at the gerrymandering of precincts
• No need to examine the motive at non-disclosure of GOP content hacked by those that disclosed the DNC hacks… just not interested
• No need to examine… oh hell… just put aside anything suggesting malicious interference.. and get back to the narrative, right?
306-232.Take your BS and shove it,this corrupt attempt to smear Trump and his victory is just a last minute attempt at dictatorship by zion,and all their minions from hell.
… that has to get some kind of award…
“this corrupt attempt to smear tRump”
wow.
Smear rRump?!
what possesses some people?
if that doesn’t shout “maroon!” I don’t know what does.
Here you are, Red State and Briebart trolls already converging after smelling blood in the water. This is like chum for Trump chumps.
Amazing to me that anyone would comment on an article without first reading it.
RMD, as usual with you, you simply are spewing misleading garbage, or outright falsehoods. And which, even if true, would not rebut the article to which it purports to respond. To take just one example of your inanity, you claim:
There’s this new thing, it’s called Google. If one employs it, one finds numerous Intercept pieces on this topic, such as one from October titled: VOTER SUPPRESSION IS THE REAL ELECTION SCANDAL. There are many more.
spewing misleading garbage, ah…now that is choice!
why thank you Mona for deigning to respond.
my day is complete!
I can just ignore all that baseless, fact free activity by the man behind that curtain, right Toto?
“There’s no place like home!”
RMD translated: “Oh, so I spouted bullshit;The Intercept does, in fact, cover that which I strongly implied it does not. I still don’t wish to talk about the actual points in this Greenwald piece ,so Ima gonna just spout more ad hominem inanity.”
ad hom?
If memory serves, the Ad Hom was your introductory salutation.
you are all about slamming someone with gratuitous homms..
“as usual with you”
very lawyerly, that.
Kinda like your Trumped up hero… accusing others of the thing you do.
This is all about the zionist hatred of America first,and everything it represents.
The MSM and CIA are totally controlled by traitors.
Trump has good grounds to shut them both down,the ziomedia,and the CIA.
It would be a beautiful thing,but of course the traitors are aware of this possibility,and are pulling out all stops.
All true, though when you write of Hillary’s “smooth, entitled path” your bias is clear, since it was a tooth-and-claw struggle all the way.
In any case, two important points you do overlook:
1. Sanders, Stein and people like you helped throw the election to Trump.
2. Putin and Wikileaks clearly favored Trump as well.
Love all your news citations: They paint you as a fevered conspiracy theorist.
I always do appreciate your posts Glenn. And of course there are questions – serious ones – about the evidence that caused WaPo to make the leaps they did.
I believe however that from a view of governing you risk creating false equivalency with the complete falsehoods uttered by Trump team.
Why link the two? Because if you’re successful in tearing down all the msm outlets for their lack journalistic rigour there will be no megaphone loud enough to counter the propaganda from the soon to be administration.
I would second also that stories break from anonymous sources all the time. Seldom is a document dump wrapped up with nice bow around it. More likely that type of irrefutable evidence is the stuff of documentaries 20 years after the fact and 20 years too late.
Hating Clinton tactics is fine – have at it. Love Bernie and Elizabeth Warren – and I do. But the real threat is unfolding now with misinformation, disinformation and propaganda at the highest level of the new administration.
By all means do detailed, exacting reportage that proves beyond a doubt how the drone program worked or how electronic surveillance was undertaken. That’s fine and fascinating but when the competition for ideas with the electorate / population is from a President-elect choosing Secretaries of Education, EPA etc like it’s opposite-day and doesn’t bother with reality let alone facts it is dangerous to quibble on one particular point.
In the bigger picture an article proving or disproving the original intent of the hackers will be irrelevant once Secretary of State Tillerson removed sanctions, lines his pockets and releases a billion barrel bomb of oil into the environment.
In his interview with John Pilger, Julian Assange stated that Russia is not the source of the email hack. Case closed.
It is very strange that so much fuss is made about the emails published by Wikileaks – but nobody investigated in any seriousness the death by shooting in the back of the DNC staffer Seth Rich right after the hack went public. It is much more likely that the hack originated inside the DNC than that the Russians were doing it. It is what Assange alludes to when he said to one reporter that the sources who upload info to Wikileaks take risks. And he offered $20’000 for information relating to the death of Seth Rich. Any person looking on from inside the DNC and seeing the partiality of DWS in favor of Hillary and against Bernie, must have been sickened by the corruption. Whoever it was who hacked into Podesta’s server is irrelevant: the content of those emails is revealing and it shows a machinery that is not only illegal but in its intention criminal: go look at the undercover vids by Project Veritas of an interview of the head of a company hired by Hillary to incite the riots at Trump’s rallies and his explanations as to how the result of the election can be influenced by using illegal immigrants to go vote in states where registration requires not so many documents. Hillary in time fired the company – but only after the emails were published. Equally, there is an email in which Bill Clintont suggests that he will set up an independent entity of the Clinton foundation, which Chelsea could oversee, so that they can still accept foreign donations. In light of the large donations to the Clinton foundation Hillary solicited and accepted from Saudi Arabia and Qatar – surely, not just to talk to her, they don’t pay a total of $56m combined for that, but to influence policy – Bill’s explanations on what can be done so the Clinton foundation can still accept foreign donation despite severance from it by Hillary and Bill, implies that this pay for play scheme would continue if Hillary were to be elected president. There is an email that clearly refers to pedophilia. There are emails in which Podesta talks of Hillary’s bad judgment and lack of good instinct and emails in which he doubts that he can get her elected because she just has too many problems associated with her. Some emails talk about Hillary’s health condition, her being confused often, her need to take a nap etc.
It is the content of these emails and the problems of Hillary’s that did without a doubt hurt her campaign. But that is what such emails should do. Nobody should elect a candidate with so much illegality and criminality without knowing about it. Her misuse and abuse of classified information is serious and if it hadn’t been for the establishment wanting to get her elected, Comey would have recommended indictment. As it was, he couldn’t prove a criminal motive – none is really needed under the applicable portion of the espionage act – but Comey wanted to deal with the entire problem including the Clinton foundation. However, Loretta Lynch refused to prosecute the Clinton foundation and that made it impossible. As to the timing – it was Hillary herself who produced the precarious timing by endlessly delaying making her emails available. In the end, there was no way to prevent the investigation results and the election coming close together. Not for Comey’s fault. Comey’s description of Hillary’s email use clearly labels it as gross negligent. It is clear at this moment that there are two standards of law, one for regular people and one for the higher ups. Clinton, even according to the Podesta emails, doesn’t think the law applies equally to her and she took her election as an entitlement. That really prevented her from having something real to say. In addition, her labeling Trump’s supporters as a “basket of deplorables who are irredeemable” and Bernie’s supporters as “basement dweller” who are a “bucket of losers”, didn’t exactly help her convince these people to vote for her. Nor should anybody vote for a candidate who so deeply despises them.
Which confirms that whoever hacked these emails isn’t important. It is the content of the emails that did Hillary in. And rightfully so. Whether Trump is a better alternative remains to be seen. Personally I hoped Bernie would win and had Hillary not conspired to undermine him wherever she could not least with voting fraud in New York, Arizona and California, he would rightfully have won the nomination.
It is strange how everybody believes blindly that Putin is this all powerful man who is behind everything that goes wrong in the west. But nobody looks at what is going on in the world and asks what is it that the Obama administration tries to distract from with these new Russia-email-hack insinuations. Well, there is Aleppo, which is fast nearing its entire liberation by the Syrian army. With it, Obamas foreign policy in Syria is lost. The war in Yemen, in which the US actively participates all but dropped out of the media. Obama claimed that the US was pulling out of that war, but no details were given to see what that means. The fact that both al Qaida and ISIS are fighting in Yemen remains. Libya is a failed state and ISIS is still largely active there. In Ukraine, the Kiev regime meanwhile sent its army to fight intensely against the rebels in the Donbas, despite a cease fire and the Minsk agreement that Kiev was supposed to implement but never did. The IMF meanwhile refused further loan tranches – and Kiev covers it up with war. That is the background that is silenced over with these Russian interference clamors and, as Glenn Greenwald points out, there is no proof, no evidence given anywhere to confirm the allegations made in the MSM. Isn’t it interesting that 2 days after WaPo published a list of 200 alternative media that they claimed are all misinformation, put out by Russia. While WaPo had to retract that list again, it is obvious that they insinuate that any doubts about Russian interference in the US elections is Russian misinformation while the WaPo unsubstantiated allegations are the truth. Such reporting by the WaPo follows the US tactics of psyops.
“But the real threat is unfolding now with misinformation, disinformation and propaganda at the highest level of the new administration.”
I hate to break this to you, but that’s been going on since the Founding. Expecting honest government which does not persistently lie to its own benefit is like waiting for the Great Pumkin.
Finally some news that is going after the truth. It’s refreshing.
But I’m not so sure that there is a ‘truth’ anymore. So many shades of gray out there, seeking truth may be a Sisyphean task. By the time truth is found the new cycle has moved on and the truth is forgotten.
Take the news of the swastikas with Trumps name appearing in New Jersey / NYC. It was reported that this was associated with Trump because it fit the DC narrative but when it was found out it was a liberal artist trying to stir up the association and a black man in new jersey who did these things I did not see a narrative of retractions and apologies. It was the narrative that mattered not truth.
Control the narrative and you control the people does not work anymore with all of these information sources online and that is scaring them. Sad.
I understand that the basic frame of reference on the left is to question and fear the motives of the Democratic establishment, in light of everything they’ve done to quash rebellion in their ranks. I was and remain furious about what happened to Bernie Sanders, yet — to dismiss these allegations, just because we’re dealing with agencies that know how to lie professionally — I think that does us a grave disservice. First of all, the CIA has previously lied to cover their asses. That’s not what’s happening here. Second, sure, we may be dealing with dueling leaks. The CIA narrative — maybe just a Hail Mary pass to save us from Trump’s fascist America — is perhaps coming out now because they thought the administration would do more. Sometimes the leak comes first, the evidence comes shortly thereafter. Let’s take a breath and wait for more news dumps over the next few days. This might be a strategic move to get this all out there before the electors meet on the 19th. Anonymous sourcing is a cornerstone of some really good journalism. Eventually we find out who Deep Throat is. I, for one, even though I don’t want us to dump Trump based on false evidence, DO want us to dump Trump. Remember, there were reports in the weeks before the election (from Mother Jones and elsewhere) about Trump being cultivated by the Russians for years. And the Paul Manafort mess. There seems to be a lot of there there.
I just worry, Glenn Greenwald, that your words may be used by Trumpers to fight back against these allegations — even if they turn out to be totally, wholly valid. We are about to enter a dark and terrifying period of American history, if Trump does indeed enter the White House – one where a free press could be not just delegitimized, but unduly harmed. And our right to assemble is under threat — starting on the day of the inauguration. I’d much rather trust that this story will evolve into something more solid, than to dismantle it from the get-go. We can be skeptical, but let’s not lose sight of what’s at stake, and not assume that the CIA is the same exact agency that it was under the Bush administration. We just don’t know yet. If this election was intentionally stolen, and if, as seems possible, actual members of Trump’s campaign were involved with Putin, well, that, to me, is a big fucking deal. We need to run this story to the ground.
Superb!!
It would appear now and in the future, as has been the case, the us govt will deny you to run this story down. Of course the press will pursue it, but without verifiable falsifiable evidence that can be properly tested, its a no win situation.
The best hope the press has for actually dealing with this story is to seek a whistleblower or a hacker or a leaker.
You are not going to motivate the us govt to surrender its evidence …ever.
In the absence of cooperation your stories should run the hardest line against these secretive practices.
The payoffs is obvious:
press regains some level of confidence restored for pursuing it, or even more significantly you succeed in getting it.
Its sets a special precedent where the press establishes credible fact based reportingnas the norm, versus the crappy loose and fast stories that only create rabid tin foilers and accelerate fake news outlets.
The public actually is involved in so called public debate on matters of extraordinarily significant import.
So should Woodward and Bernstein have ignored their source? Anonymous sourcing is integral to the free press and getting information to citizens. You do journalism a disservice by trashing anonymous sourcing.
Your CIA examples of lying don’t make sense in the context of what we are talking about now. They lied previously to cover their asses. This doesn’t help them in any way. Why would they lie about this now? What is the motivation? Could they be wrong? Sure. But lying? Why?
Sorry but your Woodward/Berstein example don’t make sense in the context… They got tipped by an anonymous source and then confronted his claims and lead an enquiry that proved the source to be credible. In our case, “anonymous sources” from the CIA are feeding the press with rumors…As to why lying now ? Why lying all the time but now ? We don’t get to know what the real agenda is….
So your baseless claim of lying is supposed to be more credible? That doesn’t make sense. Where is your evidence for that? Multiple independent investigations have concluded the same thing the CIA is supposedly claiming. There is plenty of evidence. The only argument against the evidence is that it is an elaborate frame job. Unfortunately in cyber security investigations that is always a possibility and you have to look at the likelihood and who benefits.
Yes i do suppose someone spreading rumors till I see your proof (and not the “many independent investigations” without naming one… claiming something has never been a… proof). But I grant you to think about who’s benefiting from these rumors you call evidence. If it were so obvious, one wouldn’t even argue. You claim your evidence, i claim my doubts…Yes, none of us could say for sure…
I’ll let Marcy Wheeler answer that for you.
“Before I start with the substance of the story, consider this background. First, if Trump comes into office on the current trajectory, the US will let Russia help Bashar al-Assad stay in power, thwarting a 4-year effort on the part of the Saudis to remove him from power. It will also restructure the hierarchy of horrible human rights abusing allies the US has, with the Saudis losing out to other human rights abusers, potentially up to and including that other petrostate, Russia. It will also install a ton of people with ties to the US oil industry in the cabinet, meaning the US will effectively subsidize oil production in this country, which will have the perhaps inadvertent result of ensuring the US remains oil-independent even though the market can’t justify fracking right now.
The CIA is institutionally quite close with the Saudis right now, and has been in charge of their covert war against Assad.”
You don’t get it. Anonymous sourcing is vital, but what you’re talking about has nothing to do with evidence-free claims from anonymous officials. When Deep Throat approached Woodward and Bernstein, he didn’t say “I have evidence of wrongdoing but I can’t tell you what it is.” All the President’s Men is very detailed.
Here’s an example of “secret evidence”: I have evidence, really good evidence, that you beat your wife. It’s very convincing evidence, but I can’t show it to you. I have very good reasons why I can’t produce that evidence, but I can’t discuss those reasons either.
That’s pretty much how claims about Iraqi WMDs worked. It was obviously crap at the time, as any rational person would’ve realized.
That is not how the WMD story went down at all. They had “evidence” by way of curveball but he had other motives that should have been known.
Again it comes back to motivation. What is the motivation for claiming the Russians hacked the DNC and tried to sway the election? That seems to be a very important part of this. You can make all the baseless claims about the CIA you want and that seems to be ok with you because it fits with your agenda. On the other hand there is a ton of evidence that Russia was behind the hacks.
They had none. It was all whispers and assertions. I remember it well. Claims were made to the effect that there was slam dunk evidence which couldn’t be shown because it would “compromise sources and methods.” It was all BS, evidently.
Seriously?
Yes seriously. You cannot dodge the question by feigning indignance.
As for the WMD intelligence failure their evidence was claims made my curveball. He did exist. He did make those claims. He was just lying.
You simply do not know what you are talking about. Greenwald has long written about the scourge of the media granting anonymity to government sources to spew what they like that promote’s the state’s agenda.
He has never at all denied that anonymity is vital and appropriate in certain instances, especially where the source is acting in the role of whistleblower. Would you care to explain what in these circumstances justifies granting anonymity? No whistle is blowing here.
“Beyond that, what makes claims from anonymous sources so especially dubious is that their motives cannot be assessed.”
That statement right there cuts against everything you said. Maybe Glenn should be more careful with his wording. he has a tendency to get riled up and say conflicting things because that statement seems to claim that all anonymous sources’ claims are dubious.
This statement is also at odds with his very own baseless claim that the CIA is lying about this without a shred of evidence to back that up. The CIA has no clear motivation to lie about this.
Nope. You are tap dancing and avoiding my question, to wit:
Well?
One word — Censorship. The entire reason to push the crap about Russia and the election is to manufacture consent from the public to censor EVERYONE BESIDES THE LYING legacy media. I think it is transparent at this point that the legacy media are propagandists — they have any number of reasons to lie; number one is : it is their job.
There is no evidence,and the only motivation is Israel for the traitors trying to destroy our democracy.
That last sentence doesn’t inspire confidence, if you are confusing evidence with the flimsy often repeated accusations without factual evidence to back them up. That is what this story is about. I’ve read every single so called report and every single independent security forensics study that has been published. 95% of these are worth smithing an accusation tossing around non trivial technical methods, but withholding the data that corroborates the solution.
The story here is about holding our government accountable for making extraordinary claims
Where is the extraordinary evidence.
All points, absent any extraordinary evidence, to pure speculation.
What is more damaging to society and the Commonwealth of man: the protection of state secrets at all costs..or a wholesome policy that dares never to repeat the most seriously flawed decisions on loose and fast ‘facts’.
?
Its an incredibly important question. And if the government will not respond, accordingly there will be those that will steal it and display it. This we do know.
The question is, who goes first.?
A rogue set of conspirators itching to carve out a grande host of false data that will instill a complete loss of trust, as we have witnessed in thebfake news fever this cycle?
Or the us govt stepping forward. In plain day light. Here it is. Here is what we have. This is how we proved it. These are the falsifiable repeatable durable tests you can perform independently to see our claims are legitimate and objective and would hold up in any courtroom.
Which raises the serious question: why hasn’t the us formally filed a international court case here?
Pause …needs more whiskey time forever.
Rule of thumb: Refusal to produce evidence that would benefit the party making the extraordinary claims is evidence of deliberate deception and non-existence of said evidence.
Our courts see it the same way. An exception to the hearsay prohibition is statements against interest.
I am still failing to see how this benefits the CIA in any way.
If you do not understand the agenda of many in the CIA — where partisan Democrats are all over the place — then you cannot be reasoned with.
The CIA has a long, long history of being utterly duplicitous. But you find these latest, anonymously sourced assertions pleasing, so that’s the end of the inquiry for you.
“If you do not understand the agenda of many in the CIA — where partisan Democrats are all over the place ”
After railing about the need fot evidence and decrying McCarthyism, you make a statement like this which contains none of the first and reeks of the second.
Please provide evidence of partisan Democrats all over the CIA pushing their agenda, and please state what that agenda is.
Blame religion. It’s trained us well to accept unfounded beliefs…..
Glenn, as always, thank you for the clarity, logic, and integrity of your arguments. But as someone who so earnestly wants your arguments to succeed, no thanks for the gratuitously insulting, dehumanizing adjective “drooling” – such insults only inflame and escalate the frenzied hysteria and irrational rage which are driving this McCarthyism. Many thousands of us are cheering on your efforts to stand up for responsible, evidence-based journalism. How does the insult “drooling” advance that critically important purpose? Glenzilla, please present your evidence that any real drooling is going on!
Hi, Helen! Good to see you int his space again.
As for “drooling,” nah, that’s not dehumanizing, merely insulting. And come on! We can’t expect Glenn to stop being Glenn! ;)
Well, if Glenn had extended the modifier to “drooling like a dog” then of course that would be both dehumanizing and obviously complimentary rather than insulting, based on the clear, overwhelming evidence of the decency of the vast majority of dogs. But just plain “drooling,” leaving the imagination to imprecisely range across a vast array of mammals with wildly various ethical capacities? And without the least scrap of substantive verification? Not even one eyewitness?!?! No, no Mona, it is because we respect Glenn’s work that we must hold him to his own high standards of precisely descriptive language and evidentiary foundation!
But just plain “drooling,” leaving the imagination to imprecisely range across a vast array of mammals with wildly various ethical capacities? ”
Well then, maybe he should have said something like.. “abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling beasts who sired them and then killed themselves in recognition of what they had done”, eh? It leaves nothing to the imagination, right? Right.
sheeezushfuckingchrist. Who gives a fuck.. It was only a goddamn word.
Meanwhile.. this whole story is making a mockery of cognitive dissonance.
I think Greenwald was kind of restrained actually.
The willful stupidity of a class of people who have been smugly referring to themselves for years now as “the reality-based community” cannot be mocked, ridiculed and scorned with enough vehemence.
I should know, lots of them are friends and co-workers of mine. Decent politics in America depends on them not succumbing to a combination of smugness, paranoia, and self-pity. I see no reason to be nice about it.
A few points:
1. I would trust the FBI over the CIA on this. The FBI is the agency mandated to handle counterintelligence. Plus, they are one of several that deal in cybersecurity.
2. The FBI may have other reasons to go after Clinton. Recall the official (i.e. the one released by the government, not Wikileaks) email to Clinton from one of her aides which stated, “AQ (i.e. Al-Quaida) is on our side in Syria.” While working with terrorists may be par for the course in the CIA, the FBI doesn’t work that way.
3. Investigations may reveal some things that officials don’t want to get out. After all, it was recently revealed that Georgia’s (i.e. the US state) election information was hacked into… And the hack was traced to DHS.
(Side note: Can policy be changed to allow more links to be posted?)
The CIA is the CENTAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY. The CIA and the NSA work hand in hand in some operations. The FBI are bumbling idiots who attempted to swing the election themselves based on false evidence. Why would you trust that?
You took the AQ statement completely out of context to suit your argument when in reality it doesn’t.
Oh! Look! It’s “Chris Smith” desperately trying to boy-splain…
There was no hack of the Georgia DNC according to the articles I read. It was simply a scan of some sort coming from a DHS ip address. Probably a port scan or maybe a vulnerability scan. This is way less evidence than Russia hacking the DNC. If you have a problem with that story you should have a really big problem with the DHS story. There is zero evidence who was behind that and zero evidence the Georiga DNC was breached.
First, it was Georgia elections, not Georgia’s Democrats.
https://www.cyberscoop.com/georgia-hack-dhs-brian-kemp-jeh-johnson/
As for the CIA, they do work with the NSA, as well as the FBI, both on various cases and as part of the intelligence community. I did know that. I also know that the CIA has been involved in a lot of unsavory things in the past few years, including providing arms to terrorists. (True, the FBI does nefarious stuff, but not on that scale, and not providing real weapons.) If any are bumbling idiots, it would be the CIA for helping arm the nebulous “moderate rebels” with arms now being used by the buddies of AQ and IS. That is one reason I trust the FBI more than the CIA. (Part is also bias- I have liked the FBI since I was a kid, and one of my favorite TV shows is “The X-Files.”)
Democrats are well aware of the course of their election loss.
The DNC torpedoed the one Democratic candidate who could beat Trump.
For the hundredth time, “secret evidence” is not actually evidence. It has zero value. It’s hard to understand why ostensibly rational people don’t realize how obvious that is.
There are three sides to every story
There is the truth. The whole enchilada
There is the story you read or watched.
And then there is the information that only a few are allowed to see or read or feel.
Rarely do all three happen at the same moment.
The CIA and the us govt has made it lawful to carefully distribute information that only appears to be all three. In the last type, they will whisper clever hints, little clues. You will know this is happening when the news states ‘an insider’..’a state official’..’a source at the agency operating in anonymity’
Or sometimes they push up a useful idiot in front of Congress and establish the fabrication.
Isn’t the reality of the situation they have created and designed?
Its like the three statues of a person:
There is the person that you know
There is the person that others know you to be
And there is the person no one knows.
The Ignored Confession
What is obvious and has plenty of supporting evidence is the idea that the Obama administration and the “Intelligence Community” intervened in the 2016 election, and not just to undermine confidence in the US electoral system, but to help Hillary Clinton win the presidency.
I don’t think even democratic partisans would disagree with that assessment, they would just insist that the intervention of the Obama administration and the “Intelligence Community” is proof that Russia interfered in our elections on the side of Trump, and the logical response to such a threat to our democracy.
I’m not sure why Glenn is insisting that Obama isn’t playing along with this travesty, but unless you think the “Intelligence Community” has staged a coup, then all of this is on Obama. You can’t have this both ways. If the “Intelligence Community” is off the leash and picking candidates, then we have much bigger problems than Russia or Trump, but if not, then all of the pre-election interference by the “Intelligence Community” is all on Obama and his administration.
The story here is that Obama and his administration used the “Intelligence Community” and an overly compliant media to interfere in our elections on the side of their party’s candidate. What is amazing is that there really is very little disagreement over that fact, the only argument seems to be whether or not Russia’s actions justified Obama’s behavior.
Of course the media is going to spend all of their time chasing the Russia side of this, while ignoring that the big, wet dream, anticipated reveal of the Russia story is what the democrats have already confessed to.
That entire comment is a pile of assertions with no support. I believe none of it, because I require evidence before I accept notions as provisionally true.
@Mona
I have no idea how you missed this since it was relentlessly and breathlessly repeated in the media (including The Intercept).
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/10/07/joint-statement-department-homeland-security-and-office-director-national
I love that Obama’s newly announced investigation into Russian involvement in our election shows that when he publicly accused Russia of tampering during the election that Obama didn’t have evidence to back up his accusations.
Obama needs to release the evidence he had that was strong enough for him to issue the above statement from the DHS.
That’s all we need right now. If he wants to do more investigation to prove that his gut what right and bill it to the taxpayers–well here we are–but his administration used the “Intelligence Community” and an overly compliant media to sell the idea that Russia was hacking our election for Trump. (Hell Mona, they had to issue a press release and put their name on it because all of their anonymous backsourcing pushing this Russia bullshit was getting zero traction–and way too much of that anonymous crap was repeated by the Intercept too.)
Where have you been over the last six months to miss all this drama? It’s been one hell of a ride.
What a load of crap. Extraordinary claims require at least a modicum of evidence. You provide only your fantasies.
Of course,the worst attempt at propaganda in our nations history,all to elect the most corrupt traitor in American politics,HRC,a pos arrogant asshole from dumb school,and Obomba of course,despite you know who’s defense,is totally on board,as his feckless ignorant ass is about to be exposed by the Donald also.
And now all the demoncrats love the CIA.sheesh.
The complete one-sidedness of the leaks is reason for suspicion. Assange said he didn’t leak any Republican emails because none were supplied to him. Is this because they are squeaky clean or because their networks are unhackable? It is hard to believe either of those things are true. Whoever the hackers are, it looks like they had a targeted animosity for the Democrats. For now, I think the smart position is to suspect but verify.
I think its important to recognize timelines and relevancy:
The DNC hacks were over a period if several years prior to their release.
Trump was not even on the radar at that time.
WL does not perform hacking operations. It is a publishing outket. The agencies that perform hacking and submit hacked material are unknown to WL. This often misunderstood aspect is what realizes both the protection of WL legally and simulateneously guarantees a fireproof against any legal or financial leverage they may be subjected to reveal sources.
WL has a very sophisticated, well known, and completely open source set of tools they utilize to verify accuracy, completeness and attribution for all materials they publish. There has never been a single document published by WL that has not first gone through this process. There are hundreds perhaps thousands of technically proficient experts in the field of data forensics that ate involved in this process before one single document is published. There are magnitudes of orders of that number of subject matter specialists that research that same material when it is released. Not one single document has ever been found to be a forgery. Not one.
WL does receive a lot of material they do NOT publish.
Some of the reasons:
Material is evaluated to be false or fails to achieve any of the forensics testing.
Sometimes offerings are sent to WL in a format, media type, or a copy technique that are automatically rejected. Some actually contain malware intentionally I introduced for reasons you can imagine.
These are rejected
Some material is rejected because it is incomplete. Establishing complete records is significant because in most cases a better sense of culture, idealogy, intent, conduct, etc can only be properly assessed with large scopes. The same can be said when viewing what may appear to me immoral or criminal or misconduct or suspicious material. WL will generally not publish if a very small set of incomplete material is given to them.
Another reason, and this may apply to your trump question, relates to publishing for maximum impact.
There is no confusion WL waited to publish before the election and dribbled it out rather than just to be dump. This was twofold: for maximum effect, and because there was a consideration made that a one time release would be largely too much for the press and the public to read and handle. Remember this was hundreds of thousands of documents! What WL was able to achieve was a means to ensure this information would not be dismissed by the press by a ‘first impression’ sound bite. And the public would eventually begin to understand the importance of the material.
I would be nieve that this also did not have a incredible lift to the WL brand. Where that brand happens to have the biggest pair on planet earth.
So it waits, it does it accountancy, it takes aim, and it shares with the world… Was sup DNC..or said more precisely, hackers said hi to the world in their own special way.
Now of your thinking this wasn’t fair, and where are the trump emails. I really haven’t the slightest idea.
But my guts tell me this:
You’ll be hearing plenty of GOP and trump realities coming to WL soon enough.
But hackers will have to do that lifting. They may have already. Maybe its a timing thing. Maybe the stuff was false or incomplete. I dunno. That is the drill with WL. You don’t get a paper thrown on your driveway everyday for the huge scoops.
But I think if this election and the interest in knowing what your favorite American president is up to, I think its pretty sage to say, more hackers than evert before will be submitting.
And Obama… Maximum effect. Well I will make a prediction. Worldwide he is seen as a warhawk and a failure to produce the promises he made. Hackers are guided by emotions as all of us are. Expect to see some of his laundry too. It will be coming.
Remember what brought this about:
Governments that suppress information about corruption, are always met by justice.
Always.
So be patient, I recommend:
We got lots of folks and agencies to cover.
What you and the world does to SCT on that information is your choice…and your future
Another excellent piece of work. Exposing our so called elected officials for continuing to dress up crappy assumptions as fact and evidence is perhaps the MOST IMPORTANT NATIONAL SECURITY concern for public interest journalism and exposing corruption and just simple poor judgement. That tucker Carlson video segment really nails it. It should be shocking to any viewer to witness this congressman repeatedly use the words evidence but refusing to establish it. We know he understands the meaning of evidence. Apparently this is the style of false witness that has operated so well in the past. Its a relief this isn’t given a free pass anymore. It never should have been based on false trust. I think we are seeing a return to proper judgements about how and why we must reassess what government ‘tells’…they are lame but dangerous story tellers. We have so much work to be done to expose them. Keep up the good work
Glenn, as soon as I saw these allegations I searched for your piece on the matter. As always you put everything into perspective using great evidence of past CIA transgressions and DNC red-baiting.
Thanks for all your work. It is so difficult to hit back against the rising drum beat of paranoia and the generally rational peoples’ desires to believe whatever is spoon-fed to them.
As you say, let’s investigate, release any evidence, and then have a debate about it rather than jumping straight to the verdict before the jury has even been selected.
The ones meddling in our affairs are “Anonymous Sources” and “Fake News” a couple of the most nefarious operations imaginable. They have agents in literally every nook and cranny of government and throughout major corporations and other institutions worldwide. They are uncanny in their ability to appear, seemingly out of nowhere, to direct and redirect the attention of vast swaths of society at an almost unconscious level.
Investigations have shown that their actions have been at the root of some of the most shameful acts of nations and legislatures around the globe. No one has been able to determine what their ultimate agenda might be or how many may be involved. They often seem to be working at cross-purposes. They’ve shown to have the capacity to control elections, shape legislation and start wars, often resulting in grave harm to many, many thousands of innocent people. Psychologists have suggested that they seem to have achieved a form of mind control over social and political thought. An adequate cure or counter-offensive has yet been to be discovered….
Something tells me you go through dozens of rolls of tin foil a week.
Serious?/Satire? Serious?/Satire? Serious?/Satire?
Since I’m grinning even harder as I read to the end, I vote Satire. Well, played. Prompted me to think of this old cartoon: http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/thefw.com/files/2012/01/Family-Circus-Not-Me.jpg
Their name is zion.
Glenn, please have a technically versed member of your team familiarize themselves with the evidence that has in fact been made public by independent security researchers months ago:
https://www.secureworks.com/research/threat-group-4127-targets-google-accounts
https://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-hackers-broke-into-john-podesta-and-colin-powells-gmail-accounts
The Intercept has technical members on staff, yet it has not reported on the SecureWorks study. I suspect you simply missed it — I did. But the evidence is pretty clear: the same attackers who targeted the Ukrainian prime minister, Russian NGOs and other targets of interest to Russian intelligence targeted the DNC, the RNC, Clinton operatives and other US political targets. We know this because they left public breadcrumbs that independent security researchers have assessed.
We don’t have to wait for the CIA: this is a clear smoking gun.
One strong comment about the secure works. They have a three tier scoring method used to describe ‘reasonableness’
The threat group they provided research on, resulted in the ‘middle’ score, moderate confidence, which is:
Moderate confidence generally means that the information is credibly sourced and plausible but not of sufficient quality or corroborated sufficiently to warrant a higher level of confidence.
‘…not of sufficient quality….’
I would hold off squaring this as any type of smoking gun.
At the end of the day, that’s the executive summary, you can draw your own conclusions based on the available evidence:
1) a single Russian-linked group was identified as the source of a massive phishing campaign targeting politicians in the US, as well as targets specifically of interest to Russian intelligence;
2) this identification is solid because the group itself left public breadcrumbs of its attacks, including the email addresses of the attack targets;
3) we know that Podesta and other attack targets clicked on the phishing links because they conveniently have built-in click counting (analytics) that is also publicly available.
So it’s almost certain that Podesta’s and others’ accounts were compromised by this group. You won’t have complete certainty because it’s always possible that someone will click on a phishing link and then back out again — and it’s possible that someone else, in addition to this group, had access to the data and sent the files to Wikileaks.
Finally, if you want to get really conspiratorial, it’s also possible that a group tried to frame the Russians by deliberately picking targets of interest to Russian intelligence.
So we don’t know with absolute certainty that this is what ultimately resulted in the leaks, but this is about as strong evidence as you could hope for, especially if the leaks were purely the result of phishing which requires no break-in.
No I don’t care to go conspiratorial. I got more than my fill this last cycle.
I’ve graduated to fact based, proof of evidence. Helps me spare up my time for other useful habits. Drinking at 6 in the morning takes time. Lol
And yes, I recognize that the very best security forensics is more art than science when yielding a summary. And I think this is part of the problem. We read a relatively technical report on a hack to support a narrative. But in the fine details we see that report is not the most strong argument for establishing attribution.
I also recognize that secure works appears to be responsible enough to classify this as moderate confidence. I consider that a rather rare element in the wild west of security forensics which more often than not, will print a definitive on rather wild and loose change.
Have you any interest where secure works has related a summary of any research that resulted in a HIGH confidence result?
I have. Just did. Several. To see examples and the type of factual evidence they collect and HOW thet corroborate a higher confidence is very interesting and insightful to the process in rendering a high conf score.
The contrast is illuminating between mod and high. Not merely the case type but also the depth of technical forensics they were capable of utilizing. It would appear that, for example, gmail phishing attacks are common in general, and that few if any of these types of phishing attacks EVER result in a high confidence score. Check it out.
That aside, I really have problems creating policies or attaching a political stroke on based on independent security firms in which they clearly indicate a middle of the road score. That’s just me. I’m not a conspiratist, just a skeptic. I like my evidence falsifiable. No spaghetti monsters in the sky, or albino snow beasts, or strange stories of child slave markets in a DC pizza shop. Just the facts ma’am. I’m old school that way.
Let’s put it another way: would the information we have right now be reasonable to enter a courtroom with?
Let’s put it another way: should the us public be pushed into another potential dangerous conflict with a nuclear country, and old war rival on trivial information? Given the information we have has not been established as credible proof, is this the proper and moral way to achieve public support and the alleged justice we seek to impart?
Said another way: is there a place for hacking in the world about the conduct of major state actors, and isn’t this a matter we should start to feel comfortable with..perhaps even applaud?
I would be more interested to see if secure works could elaborate, for example WHAT specifically, in detail, was missing from their analysis that ‘could’ have raised that score to high..
But again, this is a socially engineered phishing attack, that was par for the course. And as you eluded, it is not merely plausible, but quite common today to dress up an attack from any domain, site, host, or state. Just takes a little more imagination. Lots of smart folks these days doing that. The truly best dont work akways at thise three letter camps. And some doing it simply because its the best way not to get caught. I’m sure we both know what was rare just a few years ago is quite common now. I think that is why this gets a low score. But in reality, there are probably over 80 separate, unique and exclusive groups capable of doing this hack quite stuxie and deliberately with all manner of so called crumb dropping. That what they are calling it now…right..maybe half of those operate in a russian or former state. so to attribute a specific Russian group as leaving some signature crumbs is telling an plainly poor description of the reality if thus hack. It was not trivial. There are many groups capable. None and all could do it, so to speak.
My tin foil spook hat: secure works like the spy agencies knows this reality… That falsifiable evidence is becoming a thing of the past as more technologically sound practices have emerged quite rapidly. At the expense of face and reputation, these agencies cling to what can only be called guessing. It is also a very dangerous practice, as we will soon learn if this flimsy story continues to fulmigate a growing crisis of tension between super powers. On what is probably a very bad guess all of the very worst outcomes may very well occur. That tragic irony keeps me awake sometimes.
tdm, the evidence (and there’s more than just the SecureWorks study) is strong enough to credibly say: “Hackers linked to Russian intelligence likely managed to breach multiple US politicians’ email attacks using a wave of sophisticated phishing attacks. Wikileaks may or may not have sourced its information from those hacks. Either way, what unfolded was asymmetric information warfare on an unprecedented scale which led to mass disclosures of the campaign internals of one party, the truth of which was exacerbated with large scale fake news stories that were shared on social media hundreds of thousands of times.”
What conclusions you draw from this is up to you.
When I read your quote:
“So we don’t know with absolute certainty that this is what ultimately resulted in the leaks, but this is about as strong evidence as you could hope for…”
And:
“Hackers LINKED to Russian intelligence LIKELY managed to breach multiple US politicians’ email attacks using a wave of sophisticated phishing attacks.”
C’mon, if ‘we don’t know with absolute certainty’, or ‘hackers “linked” to Russian intelligence’ we DON’T KNOW SQUAT FOR SURE!
I like the quote from Glenn, “The key claims are based exclusively on the unverified assertions of anonymous officials…”
That should do it.
But it’s a false summary — we have much more to go on than the unverified assertions of anonymous officials. Actually read the reports and form your own opinion:
https://www.secureworks.com/research/threat-group-4127-targets-google-accounts
https://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-hackers-broke-into-john-podesta-and-colin-powells-gmail-accounts
the conclusions I have reached on this subject matter is simple:
there is only assertions
no data, methods, techniques, or scientific methods have been disclosed for independent review
the press continues to use innuendo and heresay and dark agents in back alleys who do not reveal their source information, position of authority for proper citing. (yes, I get the notion of anonymity and I’m not condemning the practice..but plainly indicating this is far from evidence based reporting on the highly sensitive subject and the consequences that will surely follow if one uses history as any type of guide, where we may find ourselves dealing with)
the massive uptick in fake news has provided an emphasis and a growing awareness that MSM do frequently actively participate in casting news that sounds the BS whistle.)
the advent of wikileaks, and the reaction of the press to it, specifically, attending to matters of messenger over content, has created a legitimate misstrust in news organizations as a honest agencies of journalism
the heightened awareness that the govt has created laws and pursued with vigor any person of agency that publishes authentic material. and the misdirection campaign they actively project is more than chilling to the the public that relies ultimately on the protections and the activities of the press to print honest fact based reports of suspicious activity…some even, criminal.
that many independent cyber security agencies are in fact contract employees of many of these three letter agencies and that conflict of interest realizes skepticism about authentic evaluations and conflict of interest issues that arise from that partnership.
cyber security agencies that do not provide data, peer review externally to the press or the public, and of course the massive amount of political and financial concerns when presenting a pro-govt position, that often simply means echo chambering or false equivalence arrangements…few appear independent at all in this respect.
cyber security agencies that do not obey standard data forensics science, or lack the proper technologies or access at all, to actually perform them.
there is a sufficient argument that the combined divisions politically between the cia and the fbi and the competitiveness that results, show a separation of agenda…and that destroys any illusions about objectivity…the same can be said for the talking head officials, elected or not, in both govt and in the press, who are literally all over the map on this issue.
and then at the heart of the matter is this, revealed on flimsy evidence as well, but also worth considering, if we are to pretend assertions and non scientific analysis are credible:
there are some reports (unsupported at this time) that the DNC wikileaks material was NOT a hack, but was a insider job from a leaker.
and if that is true, which according to the very nature of how these agencies have projected is the basis for establishing evidence (falsely), then we should not be suprised when the smoke clears and the real answers are listed, that this was not even a hack…but a leaker…
see the reality of this situation, is actually simple:
we don’t actually know anything at this point. there is pure speculation even about how it became to be that the DNC wikileaks material was “taken”.
I find it is interesting to consider that, when we are discussing there were what is it now…19 separate intelligence agencies…and other “independent” cyber security orgs that are looking at a wire hack…
remember there has been zero official recognition that all of this wikileaks material was a result of a phishing hack from podesta….it might have been several different types of theft.
Given what I know (and what has been refused to be revealed) I suspend any and all judgements on a russian link.
it might be…it might be a macedonian vector..it might be a chinese vector…it might be misinformation for some political vector within the us to destroy the DNC…it might be a case of coincidences, also..
remember the coinintel ops in the 70’s…this operation was exposed through a complete set of accidental discovery.
one needs to keep this in mind, when we consider the fact that gmail phishing attacks are common..it is entirely plausible that this hack was not intended to create problems for the DNC, but rather to steal data …which apparently is about as a easy to perform as any other social engineering attack…which is common and increasing in breadth.
my point is we can speculate all and everything we want.
but if we are going to be told this is a data hack, and the assertion is this is a evidenced by our top spy agencies to be a state level offender, russia, in this case, we need to establish..no, we need to demand that the methods used to corroborate and establish these assertions are based on fact…and not on guessing.
because, at this point, it amounts to “best guessing:”
this is NOT a credible or desired manner to develop national security policy, sanctions or even casual finger pointing.
justice relying on flimsy assertions must always be met with skepticism and contempt.
that’s our duty as citizens…that’s the contract we sign for the commonwealth…we demand that decisions be made on evidence that is clear and non trivial.
that’s the point I am trying to make.
that is the current conclusion and principle that I have drawn.
thank you for the exchange. This is very good to argue these points. I don’t claim to be correct…but I am not putting my money on a good outcome from what I see so far: we have been down this road, way too often with all the worst kinds of outcomes becoming reality…
Our govt and its officials need to clear this matter up, before we engage a nuclear country..again…
that trump in office scares alot of people…there are real dangers of a loose and fast knee jerk decision from the administration he is assembling…I think that should give everyone a serious pause on this subject matter.
serious pause..and healthy skepticism.
Moderate confidence generally means that the information is credibly sourced and plausible but not of sufficient quality or corroborated sufficiently to warrant a higher level of confidence.
This from the secure works site
Hardly can be squared as a smoking gun.
So far there have been zero security firms, or spy agencies that have provided any conclusive evidence of a russian-putin link. That is what we know. Nothing more, nothing less.
This is not true. Two independent security firms came to the same conclusion.
I’m game, please link to the independent security firms that provide the data, the methods used and the falsifiability standards they deployed in summing any conclusions.
Reminder: attribution is a science… Data forensics must be durable repeatable works. Use the court of law evidence rules and methods for evaluating attribution. It only seems complicated if the information and methods are so injured as to preclude serious consideration. Probabilities and analysis are helpful, but source attribution techniques are today far more than using best guesses.
You will find more of the latter in most data forensics. And not surprisingly this seems correlated proportion to a specific us policy narrative, repeated often frivolously by msm.
This is not a trivial matter.
The trial for attribution must be treated accordingly.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Let’s not lose focus to the fundamentals. The science helps us establish fact, accuracy, honesty.
So please by all means link up those two firms you speak of. Apparently everyone just missed the proof /sarc
But I rather doubt it.
Scientific provable testable attribution is not trivial.
Does it bother you so many of the most powerful actors in the world and the press have indulged a very shallow demonstration of their own version of what evidence and attribution is ?
This is why The Intercept isn’t even considered a second-rate media source. What a joke you’ve become. We always knew Greenwald was a narcissist, but now he’s ready to discredit legit stories to (1) appear contrarian and thus distinguish himself; (2) post his rambling musings that should be relegated to a blog post. Pathetic.
I’m coming at this late, so please indulge me and others reading your comments. When you write greenwald is attempting to discredit legit stories, please elaborate specifically what you mean by that. Please. Are you saying that legit stories are spy agencies and officials declaring Putin- Russian-State level hack source or something else.
I’m not going to even touch the other comment. That’s all on you to padre.
The Intercept is by far the best national investigative journalistic source in the U.S. Your idiotic comment shows that you are nothing but a Clinton and mainstream Democratic Party apologist.
What an awesome article with great substance, and nuance. thanks Glen.