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When Alexandre Louzada and Francisco David decided that they wanted to adopt a child, they had only a small number of specific preferences.
The couple wanted a child no older than 6 years of age. They were willing to adopt a child with chronic, treatable diseases such as diabetes or fetal alcohol syndrome, but not one with untreatable conditions — such as blindness or paralysis — which they believed themselves financially and emotionally incapable of supporting.
And, unlike many prospective parents in Brazil — where a substantial portion of adopting parents only want a white child — they had no preferences when it came to race or gender. About 70 percent of the children eligible for adoption in Brazil are black or mixed race, which means that many parents who want to adopt are closed off to the possibility of taking most of the ones who need a home.
To the extent that Alexandre and Francisco, both 39 and together for 10 years, had any inflexible desire, it concerned the number of children they intended to adopt on the first go: just one. Indeed, after taking years of discussion and contemplation before finally pronouncing themselves ready, they never considered, let alone discussed, adopting more than one child at once. But as they navigated the adoption process, and learned that most Brazilian children eligible for adoption are together in shelters with siblings, they were eventually persuaded to be open to the possibility of adopting two siblings at the same time.
But in July 2015, roughly 1 1/2 years after they formally initiated the process, the couple ended up simultaneously adopting three children, all boys. Their sons are likely half brothers, sharing the same biological mother but, they speculate, with different biological fathers. At the time of the adoption, Gabriel, the youngest, was 6; the middle child, Pablo, was 9; and the oldest, Patrick, was 12. All three are black. Alexandre is white, and his husband, Francisco, is what Brazilians refer to as “moreno,” or mixed race.
Their adoption of three children, rather than one or two, happened because of an unexpected but very common quandary: After being told that adoption authorities had located a child who met their age and health preferences — the youngest, Gabriel — and that he had an older sibling, Pablo, whom they had decided they would also adopt, they learned soon thereafter that the two boys had another, older brother, 12-year-old Patrick, who had been lingering for years in adoption shelters. With Patrick, they faced a heavy dilemma: leave him in the shelter — where, given his age, he would be extremely unlikely ever to be adopted, then would be expelled at the age of 18 — or adopt him, as well as his two younger brothers, all at once.
Children over 6 have a very low likelihood of ever being adopted, which all but guarantees a grim future. According to the journalist Gilberto Scofield’s account in the magazine Piaui of his and his partner’s adoption, only 6 percent of adopting couples are open to adopting a child over the age of 6, while 85 percent of eligible children are in that age group.
Declining to adopt Gabriel’s brothers would almost certainly have consigned them to a life of heinous deprivation, or worse. Children in shelters who end up not being adopted face great hardships even in the best of circumstances. But in the poorest states of Brazil, itself a poor country, they have almost no societal support. Upon expulsion from the shelter at 18, boys commonly end up selling drugs and living on the streets, while girls turn to prostitution.
The choice this couple unexpectedly faced — adopt one or two children as intended while leaving their brother, or adopt the three siblings together despite uncertainty about how it could work — is a common one in Brazil. Because most Brazilian children eligible for adoption were removed from their biological parent due to serious abuse or neglect, siblings are often removed together.
As Scofield reported, 77 percent of the children in shelters are with siblings, while 79 percent of adoptive parents want to adopt only one child. In sum, the overwhelming majority of couples begin the process wanting only to adopt a purely healthy infant with no siblings, yet the reality of the eligible children is radically different. Adoption authorities have a strong preference to have siblings adopted together, and they apply a wide array of pressure tactics, from subtle to overt, to induce adopting couples to accept more than one child.
In the case of Alexandre and Francisco, such pressure was unnecessary. They rigorously scrutinized their income and budget and knew it would be extremely difficult to care for three children. But no matter: “From the start, it was unthinkable to leave one of the boys there,” Alexandre said. “We decided we would find a way to make it work. We felt we had no choice.”
The way the five of them have so quickly bonded into a loving and supportive family is a moving human story. It is also an illuminating and thought-provoking one, shedding light on a wide range of complex questions about human needs and relationships, psychology, race, class, gender, and behavioral influences — some of which are unique to Brazil, most of which are universal.
The couple decided to share their story because they want to enable better societal understanding of adoptive families, and to inspire others to adopt. They have begun speaking about their experience at the monthly meetings prospective adoptive parents are required to attend in Brazil in order to become certified to adopt, and they are active in several organizations devoted to support for adoptive families and public advocacy on their behalf.
There is serious need for such efforts in Brazil, where a growing and powerful faction composed of evangelicals and other ultra-conservatives want to ban same-sex couples from adopting, despite the large number of unwanted children in shelters. Such sentiments are also common in many other countries, including the United States.
After a three-week trial period — one designed to allow both the prospective parents and children to decide if the situation should be made permanent — the two fathers and three boys all unequivocally agreed they wanted to form a family. All three boys moved into the couple’s small, two-bedroom apartment in Tijuca, a working-class neighborhood in Rio de Janeiro’s Northern Zone. The two new fathers kept their bedroom, while the three boys moved together into the small spare room, with bunk beds and pull-out trundles maximizing the space.
“I grew up middle class, with English classes and trips to Disney World and other foreign countries,” Alexandre recalled. “And I did not want to adopt until we were ready and able to provide our own children with everything I had growing up.” Alexandre is a trained psychoanalyst but has been unemployed for the last year, creating uncertainty about whether they were ready.
But Francisco had a radically different upbringing: born into extreme poverty until the age of 7, and then raised by an aunt along with three cousins. “Because of how I grew up, I felt the most important thing wasn’t what we could give materially, but all that mattered was providing a loving and stable home, with the right values being taught,” he said.
Alexandre has now come around to that way of thinking — for the most part.
“I still wish I could give them more,” he said. “But reality is reality, and I feel very good about what we’ve all been able to do for each other’s lives.”
I first met the couple last July, when they spoke at a meeting I attended with my husband, David Miranda, for parents who were planning to adopt; it was the last of four meetings we had to attend to fulfill our own requirements to be certified by the family court. The session was held at night in a chapel inside a Catholic church in the Tijuca neighborhood where the family lives.
We sat with 20 or so prospective adoptive couples, all of whom seemed — like we were — filled with a roughly equal mix of apprehension and excitement. One of the four meetings entails listening to parents who have already adopted describe their experiences, and Alexandre and Francisco regularly volunteer to share their story.
Halfway into the couple’s presentation about their new lives as parents, all three boys entered the room, after playing together upstairs with their grandfather, Alexandre’s father. They walked through the crowd of prospective adoptive parents and made a beeline for their fathers, seating themselves at the front of the room next to them.
What was most striking about this 1-year-old family was its total normalcy. As most children would, all three boys manifestly felt uncomfortable as a roomful of adult strangers gazed at them. They sought immediate refuge and protection behind their fathers, literally hiding their faces.
But as their fathers’ presentation progressed, each of them — on their own time, slowly — began to be more comfortable. They gradually revealed their faces, while remaining anchored to the protective arms of their fathers. They began playfully interrupting their fathers’ presentation, mischievously grabbing their microphones, making fun of one another and their parents. The two fathers valiantly tried to divide their attention between the talk they were giving and their efforts to control three increasingly bold and restless boys as they began basking in the positive attention they were receiving from the roomful of attendees.
Five people who did not know each other the year before — who came from such radically different backgrounds and experiences — had so obviously and quickly formed a standard family with all of its familiar patterns. The power and beauty of this bond instantly dispelled whatever lingering doubts my husband and I had about the exciting but scary prospect of adopting.
The family agreed to share their story with The Intercept. Our team — myself, reporter Juliana Gonçalves, and videographer Thiago Dezan — spent many hours with them over the course of several days, in various settings, in order to get them comfortable with being interviewed and filmed and to be exposed to a full range of their experiences. Their individual story is fascinating on its own, but also for the window it provides into a wide array of societal issues.
Adoptive parents in Brazil confront a number of ethical quagmires which many did not anticipate. The first is the issue of race preference.
Is there any explanation, other than racism, for why some white parents would specify that they only want a white child, thus ensuring a far longer wait for themselves, particularly when most of the children in Brazil eligible for adoption are black?
Psychologists who oversee the orientation sessions insist that there is a non-racist motive. Adoptive parents, fearing that their children will already face significant hurdles, don’t want to add another: the constant stigma of having everyone — even strangers in public — know they are adopted by virtue of being of a different race than their parents. Having a child who looks enough like their parents to be perceived as their biological child, so the explanation goes, reduces the stigma for the child.
One of Alexandre and Francisco’s first conflicts with their youngest son, Gabriel — which took place within weeks after the adoption process was finalized — highlights this concern. When the five of them were walking on the street, Gabriel, when told he could not have something he wanted, threw a tantrum of the type common among 6-year-olds.
As his rage escalated, he ran away from his fathers, and Francisco had to chase and then grab him, all while Gabriel screamed for help. The sight of a 30-something man chasing and grabbing a screaming black child attracted the attention and concern of pedestrians and even security guards. “It was embarrassing,” Francisco recalled, “because it was the first time it happened. But I explained Gabriel was my son and that was the end of it.”
Both Alexandre and Francisco are dismissive of the significance of this stigma. “People do look at us in public, especially when I’m alone with them,” said Alexandre. “But it’s a look of curiosity, not malice, and it’s not hard to deal with. The boys know they are adopted and do not regard it as a stigma or source of shame: quite the opposite, as they have learned that adoption is something to be proud of and we are as much a family as anyone else.”
Whatever else is true, the issue of race looms over the adoption process from the start. The question prospective parents in orientation sessions most frequently ask is about time frame: How long will it take before you have your child? The answer is delivered by social workers in a matter-of-fact tone that masks its stunning meaning. The message is along these lines: “Well, it all depends on your preferences; if you want a fully healthy, white infant, then of course you will wait a very long time, even years. But if you are more flexible with your preferences, if you’re open to a nonwhite or an older child, one with conditions requiring treatment, then it will go much quicker.”
That nonwhite children are implicitly regarded as less desirable and thus more available is casually stated — as though it’s the most natural, or obvious, fact in the world. The grim reality that white children are more in demand hovers over an otherwise inspiring process. For that reason, preferences about race, along with age of the child, are among the most significant factors determining how long the process takes.
The issue of health is also complex. Children with disabilities requiring significant levels of care are sometimes given up for adoption by parents incapable of caring for them, meaning that many of those eligible suffer from blindness, paralysis, Down syndrome, or severe heart disease certain to produce a short life. Other children have treatable, chronic conditions such as fetal alcohol syndrome, HIV, or diabetes.
An adoptive parent’s decision on the limits of illness or condition they feel themselves able and willing to confront can be a tormenting one. “You have dreams for what you want your children to be,” explained Francisco, “but you don’t want to feel as though you’re demanding a physically perfect specimen. We all have frailties and imperfections; it’s part of what makes us human.”
Beyond that, added Alexandre, “part of our motive was to have children because of the happiness it would bring us, but a big part was to give an unwanted child a home. So we didn’t want to restrict ourselves to children who would easily find one.” Ultimately, they opted to accept a child with treatable, chronic conditions but not grave, untreatable ones.
Questions of gender, and, for same-sex couples, sexual orientation, can be even more difficult to navigate. The couple’s youngest child, Gabriel, spent years in a poorly funded and badly managed shelter that was just one small step removed from living on the street: Homeless children often entered without impediment, and the children in the shelter easily left to commingle with groups of homeless people. At a young age, they were all immersed in a highly patriarchal and macho culture as a means of survival. And no family members or relatives ever visited the boys to provide a countervailing influence.
The two fathers were, at first, concerned about what attitudes Gabriel and his brothers would have to same-sex couples and to women. They therefore prioritized education about social attitudes. Alexandre bought books designed to teach kids that both genders are equal and that sexual orientation discrimination is wrong. “I immediately corrected any expression of bigotry that they had picked up,” Alexandre said, “and now they see these issues completely differently.”
During their first week together, one of the boys, when told that Alexandre and Francisco were married, asked whether that was allowed. After being told that it was, the boys pointed to a well-known Brazilian prime-time soap opera that had depicted a same-sex couple, provoking controversy in Brazil. “That normalized it for them,” said Francisco, “made them understand that this was common. After that, it’s just natural for them that they have two fathers.”
The question of age also presents an endless array of difficult questions. Child psychologists vehemently debate the age at which a child’s emotional and psychological formation is largely complete and thus immune from meaningful influence, with some believing that can take place as early as 2 or 3 years old. Others, however, believe the process never ends.
Alexandre and Francisco had no such doubts about their ability to parent their pre-adolescent boys, and time appears to have proven them correct. “These are completely different children than they were a year ago when we met them,” Alexandre says. “Even as an adult, I continue to learn and change from interactions I have with others and my life experiences. Of course kids are susceptible to parental influences throughout their childhood.”
Perhaps an even more excruciating ethical quandary comes from how one conducts the “search” for the child. The question a prospective adoptive parent must face is an almost impossible one to resolve: Do you keep meeting multiple children until you find “the right one” — thus rejecting hopeful children you meet on the path to the one you ultimately adopt — or do you commit in advance to adopting the first one that falls within your demographic preferences?
Children in shelters who are older than 3 or 4 know that they are waiting to be adopted and are hopeful it will happen. When a prospective parent visits, many try to be charming in the hope that they will be chosen. A parent who rejects a child under those circumstances knows they are bestowing the child with the knowledge that they have been rejected, and are also consigning them to a future where there is a real possibility that they will never be adopted. That’s a heavy burden for both to bear.
But the other option — committing in advance to adopting the first child one meets regardless of compatibility — can present its own serious difficulties. Not every parent is equipped to provide every adopted child with the emotional and psychological support they need. Compatibility can be critical in determining whether the relationship works.
“In our case,” recalls Alexandre, “this turned out not to be a problem because we knew as soon as we met Gabriel that he was our son. And we felt the same way when we met his two brothers.” Francisco added: “That’s not to say it’s always been easy. But somehow we found them and they found us and it was meant to be.”
Gabriel with his parents and two of his friends at a birthday party.
Photo: Courtesy Alexandre Louzada and Francisco David
There is no question that adoption presents some unique challenges. Ultimately, though, parenting adopted children is far more similar than different to the process of raising biological children. Those who have children biologically also face an endless array of unknowns and factors far beyond their control. On one level, adoptive parents have more advanced information about their children than biological parents do. But in each case, the beauty and power of the parent-child relationship lies in the unknown. As is always true, that is where human possibility resides: in the realms we cannot control and thus limit with expectations.
In his 2016 book “Love That Boy,” the political journalist Ron Fournier describes the dreams and plans he had for his son before he was born, only to find that his son’s autism rendered the boy much different than the blueprint envisioned. Fournier’s account of how he came to love his son on his own terms, for what he is and for his unique attributes and abilities, highlighted the vital lesson: Once one frees oneself from expectations and attachments, all new and more powerful possibilities are discovered.
What is ultimately most powerful and inspiring about the family formed by Alexandre, Francisco, and their three boys is the sheer improbability of it. The seemingly insurmountable obstacles one would expect them to face are, in reality, no match for the human bonds they formed. The barriers and differences — socioeconomic, racial, cultural, psychological — seem trivial when set next to the love-and-support-based structure these five human beings have chosen to form. Observing and understanding it provides critical, and universal, clues for how empathetic humans are truly capable of interacting with one another.
For a school assignment, the middle son, Pablo, now 11, wrote a story of the wish he once made when throwing a coin into a fountain. He wrote: “My dream came true: I asked for a family which would never leave me.” His father Francisco put it simply: “If anyone thinks that we, two men, cannot care for these children, and that they’re not living well at our house: come here and meet us.”
Wonderful, powerful, redemptive story of how love can prevail. It made me tearful and hopeful at the same time.
Awesome, positive story, Glenn. These men are amazing. I’ve taken on many “unwanted” critters–dogs, birds, fish–you name it. But taking on three little humans–that’s a brave, selfless and loving thing to do. I don’t think I’d have the courage to do it. Very much admire these two men.
Nice piece, but it brings to mind the ever-present question when reading anything ever written by Greenwald: when is he going to turn his unrelenting gaze on one of the worst human-rights violators in the world, AKA, “Brazil”?
To talk about adoptive children in Brazil, and not mention the rampant police executions and other extreme acts of violence visited upon street children, is rather startling.
He does talk about the challenges facing these children once they grow up. You can of course ask for other topics but every topic deserves it’s article. That’s what is done here.
Another time for another problem maybe.
Is this some sort of joke? I’ve been writing about and reporting on Brazil extensively for more than 18 months. Last July, we launched The Intercept Brasil, with a growing team of Brazilian journalists who are extensively covering a wide array of abuses, including police and prison abuses. We just published an article THIS WEEK about a man who was wrongfully accused and spent years being brutalized and abused in a Brazilian prison.
If you’re actually concerned about our coverage of these issues, you should probably check first before claiming I and we don’t cover them. Otherwise, it seems that your purported concern is extremely insincere since you don’t bother even to look at the reporting that you claim to crave.
All that said, the idea that issues of police abuse should have been tossed into the middle of a 3,000 word profile of an adoptive family is just moronic.
any day now, karl. any day now.
Oh Mana… chill out; Glenn will still let you lick his feet.
I’ll tell you what, here is a song to help you relax while think about my future:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwfmbXJEBtY
So beautiful and inspiring.
Love wins.
Dear Glenn,
For some reason I was looking for an excuse to slam my fist into the table, as I normally do when I read your pieces, but that was just beautiful.
Best of luck to you and David also.
“A Same-Sex Couple Set Out to Adopt a Child. They Ended Up With Three.”
Just goes to show you, gay or straight, accidents happen.
Yes, I apologize for that one.
Glenn Greenwald rarely writes about those stories. As he himself acknowledges, his passions are often negative ones. It is unbelievable that commenters here still find a way to get into ridiculous, pathetic, and childish behavior. The noble idea behind the article is completely forgotten while they argue about how better they are than the other.
I’m still waiting to see how Greenwald blames Democrats for this.
Blames Democrats for what?
An excellent article. does this family have webpage about their lives as time goes by.
By the way, I love your writing about the dogs. I have followed you ever since you were in the Guardian.
Good luck with your adoption.
Hi Glenn, I’m a big fan of your work (and very grateful you do what you do), and while this piece was on a different topic than you normally write about, I enjoyed it a lot.
Alexandre and Francisco’s is a heartwarming story, and this is a well-written article.
The piece strikes an excellent balance:
You provided thoughtful and intelligent analysis of various factors at play in the process of adoption, without it being dehumanizing.
And you shared the touching story of this family without the piece being cloying, and without glossing over the difficult realities and complexities involved in so many aspects of the topics discussed.
Add onto that your insightful reflections on all of these aspects and on, indeed, what it is to be human, and I think you truly knocked this article out of the park.
Well done, and thank you for sharing this story.
And congratulations and best wishes to you and David!
Obrigada! Thank you for this kind, joyful story celebrating the loving essence and success of our humanity! Gente! Much needed in these days.
A beautiful and hopeful article. All love and joy to the family and to you, Glenn, David and your soon to be child(ren).
I am an adoptive parent. Our child and my spouse and I are of different ethnicities and depending on how you view these matters, races. It is hard on our child who has a high need for privacy-there is no privacy around us being an adoptive family. However we are easily able to fend off questions and comments.
Your articulation of the realities of adoption are so accurate and heartbreaking. And personally painful as I so clearly remembering having to make those choices, knowing all that you wrote. I felt and still feel guilty, yet as life has turned out, we now have less capacity than we did when our child came home.
Excellent point about biological parents! Like the parents in your story, we feel our family was meant to be.
That people would stop any worthy couple-or single person-from adopting is woefully misplaced and tragic for so many children-its about the KIDS! Enough of denying children parents-so many are desperately in need.
Will be sharing this article widely.
Wow, what a cool story. I am truly thrilled at the prospect of Glenn and David becoming parents!
If you haven’t already seen it, you might enjoy Alec Mapa’s standup show about adopting a child with his husband. I found it really funny, sweet, and relatable:
http://www.sho.com/titles/3416837/alec-mapa-baby-daddy
This is such a beautiful story. You will make an amazing father Glenn.
I started following the Intercept after watching the Snowden documentary and Dirty Wars. In the midst of the FBI’s nefarious policy making and Trump’s puppeteers attempting a coup, it’s really nice to read such a heartwarming human piece. I feel like I’m getting to know Glenn here. As ever, this is some beautiful writing:
“As is always true, that is where human possibility resides: in the realms we cannot control and thus limit with expectations.”
Determined now to just read the articles… but just had to say…
How beautifully, wonderfully positive this is!
It’s nice to see the loving heart behind the spellbinding ferocity of Greenwald so clearly expressed. I knew it!
This would probably be the first Glenn Greenwald story I would easily describe as “heartwarming”. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks! I wrote one once about the bond between homeless people and dogs. And, over the years, I’ve written about people I think have done something inspiring and heroic. The way I write is that whatever moves me, I try to share that with other people: I think journalism is best when driven by passion.
Unfortunately, watching political affairs, those passions are often negative ones, ones of critique. But not always! It’s important, I think, to recognize the capacity for human good because in its absence, there’d be no point at all in objecting to bad acts since there’d be no alternative possible.
@Glenn
Beautifully expressed:
“But not always! It’s important, I think, to recognize the capacity for human good because in its absence, there’d be no point at all in objecting to bad acts since there’d be no alternative possible.”
I’m just stunned by the people who have taken this uplifting story of human empathy and mutual support and degraded it into their own fixation on pedophilia.
Just spend some time thinking about how dank and broken someone’s soul has to be to make that leap.
Then again, I guess it’s because of dark pathologies like that that stories like this one need to be written. Above all, it’s worth periodically highlighting the good that many humans are capable of, and that those who disbelieve this are revealing a great deal about how they themselves operate and nothing else.
I’m with you Glenn. People should seek treatments. Hope that they’ll be available after Obamacare is taken down.
It’s really awful and I feel some guilt that a quote of mine was used to move that garbage higher up in the the thread. This is all up to you, of course, but I personally wouldn’t object to either deleting the whole thing or moving the newer one down to the initial ugliness below.
This is so nice and selfless of you Mona. You just earned my much-coveted +1.
“I feel some guilt that a quote of mine was used”
Bullshit. That is your sole goal here; sow outrage and then denounce, with outrage, the outrage.
You honestly believe that is Mona’s “sole goal” in being here over the years?
Seriously, get a grip.
He’s irrational on the subject of me. I usually ignore nuf.
I usually refrain from pointing out typos in comments, but pardon me, Mona, for intruding. The period belongs after the word “irrational.”
You fucking nailed it nuf. It is all symptomatic of her socipathy.
Karl, in comments to a lovely story of human goodness, you chose to reintroduce an ugly notion rather than leave it alone in a dying sub-thread. In the course of the negative reaction to that, you accused me of what is clearly untrue, namely, that this pedophilia obsessions is a topic that *I* began. Arth did, then you brought it back.
Now, you call me a sociopath. All of that, after Glenn just wrote a deeply moving piece that included this:
Whatever issues you have with me, you are clearly allowing them to control you to such an extent you cannot simply enjoy an uplifting story. A piece in which Glenn makes clear he and David are about to become fathers. Only you can really know why you’d repeatedly divert from that for the horrible, nasty and dark things you’ve offered.
Yep, I think it’s gross emotionally, and factually incorrect. Not much for banning or censoring comments, but I think any implication or outright statement that there is some connection between homosexuality/adult androphilia should be deleted.
I’d be just fine if all comments were deleted, mine included, requesting reputable data/scientific proof of that assertion which I’ve never encountered and neither have the courts that I’m aware.
Truly disturbing, even if expected by some who comment here. And really sad. This nation and far too many of its people have some really deep seated ugly issues.
The psycho-pathology on display is not entirely surprising, unfortunately the medium facilitates this:
From this article, about Facebook but generally applicable in many ways:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/facebook-brings-out-the-worst-in-people-heres-nine-reasons-why-i/
Nevertheless, understanding the phenomenon and coping with it are two different things. An incredibly large number of people who write positive uplifting stories and post them online seem to get flooded with abusive nasty responses from borderline psychopaths. The resulting stress often leads to burnout – but, it’s the same kind of stress that, for example, emergency medical services people often have to deal with (from dealing with violent bleeding drunks to treating domestic violence victims, say). And, happily, the Internet has dozens of excellent articles on “paramedic burnout” prevention and treatment.
I found it more than half way off, but I wasn’t stunned. This is when my TaL spirit kicks in. I would have included a clarification in the article letting people know that in Brazil, like in the U.S. when families adopt children they can’t be choosy about the child’s sex.
Something very nice this articles resurface for a change is that there is still that human trait called love (as (almost) “all we need …”), empathy, patience and compassion, which is also beneficial societally and even politically while seen as a most needed “social service”
Nice!
RCL
Actually, they could have specified a preference for gender – just as they could have for age, race, and health. But they didn’t. They checked the “indifferent” box on both race and gender. They just happened to end up with 3 brothers.
“They just happened to end up with 3 brothers.”
I think it’s a little bit like a pregnancy; you know there’s at least one coming for sure.
And Surprise! It’s triple the joy!
That was a horrid digression from an uplifting story and I’m sorry you had to experience it, Glenn. Fact remains that this was a splendid feature story about a lovely family, and I wish you and David good fortune if your turn to form a family should occur. If there is a dark side to this story it’s what you pointed out, that too many such children go unwanted and without a family or sometimes shelter, or end up in institutional or state custody. It’s a social ill that you might examine further, both in Brazil and in the U.S.
Anyway, take to heart those of us who found this story to be pleasing, and showing a side of your journalism that is good to see.
Yes, Mona ought to be openly cited for getting that ball rolling.
Again it was Mona that raised the subject of incest and pedophilia in selfish service to her own ego. However, pedophilia is the elephant that is always in the room. Only healthy, honest debate can determine whether such concerns are legitimate. Your own article refers to the “normalizing” effects of speaking directly to the concerns that are characteristically harbored by a “growing and powerful faction [who are] composed of evangelicals and other ultra-conservatives [who] want to ban same-sex couples from adopting. Do you think that the fear of pedophilia is not central to their concerns? Wasn’t the very purpose of this article to desensitize people to the concept of same sex couples adopting?
Irrational statistically unfounded “fear”. Absolutely. Particularly by comparison to the absolute and statistically more common harms perpetrated by heterosexual parents–globally.
But really the argument is a red herring anyway. Pedophilia, as a problem, isn’t going to be addressed by prohibiting same sex couples from marrying, having or adopting children.
It will be addressed by finding ways to stop cycles of pedophilia abuse, regardless of whether parents are same/different gender.
Because if evangelicals and others actually gave a shit about pedophilia, they’d actually look to their own statistically more prevalent nominally hetero relationships and the overwhelming number of cases of that sort of abuse in their own ranks. But they don’t because their “concern” is fake and calculated to perpetuate their hateful beliefs against those not like them.
No, that was “Arth,” some of whose horribly bigoted contributions Glenn deleted. For whatever reason you could not leave that ugly discussion in that sub-thread. [shrug]
I do note, you refuse to answer this question: “Do you hold that homosexual men in same-sex marriages should not be allowed to adopt?”
Karl, this is grossly dishonest:
Glenn did not intrude the bigoted notions that Arth brought up (and which you strongly seem to ratify). He (accurately) wrote:
Why you had to further infect this happy thread with more of that ugliness only you would know.
Ostensibly the concern of reactionaries to same=sex couples parenting is that growing up without a father or mother is depriving the children of a needed influence, and the ultraconservatives raise the same objection to single-parent families for the same “reason.” In old TV shows where one parent was deceased a common trope was that the kids were missing out (which made for episodes where guest stars could be not just potential love-interests but possible surrogate parents), and this is the same traditionalism and old-fashioned belief system in play.
It’s equally offensive to assume heterosexual parents would sexually molest their opposite-sex offspring as it is to presume gay/lesbian couples would abuse their same-sex kids.
(This only confirms my need to stay away from comment sections here, as I’d hoped that by taking a brief peek all I would see was praise for this article (1) rather than prurient bickering and shameful implications.)
Yes, this – as well as the reason I cited above about not wanting to normalize same-sex relationships as the moral and legal equivalent of opposite-sex marriages – is the primary ground invoked for objecting to same-sex adoptions.
No, I do not think that. I think what’s central to their concern is normalizing same-sex relationships as the equivalent of marriage.
It’s true that pedophilia has long been one of the demonizing libels against gay men – even through the 1990s many of the anti-gay political depictions implied gay men were lurking outside of playgrounds – but nonetheless, to watch a story like *this* and go that place requires, in my view, a really warped spirit.
I honestly think the people who are making that mental connection are revealing something deeply troubling and disturbed about themselves.
I think many people have a sense of pedophilia as something bad that is “out there” and instead of holding established institutions like traditional different-sex marriage, to account, they choose to “project” their fears and pick on the new kid on the block, which in this case, is same-sex unions.
It is definitely projective to some extent. There is a lot going on in the world of tradition that people are just afraid to call by name. … Let it be said.
I’ve got news for you Glenn sexual attraction is an irrational bias in all of its forms. Although people can choose not to indulge the impulses that arise from that bias they are ever-present nevertheless. There is an instinctual revulsion felt by many heterosexuals towards homosexual behaviors that few ever talk honestly about. Those same feelings of revulsion are more deeply provoked in heterosexuals by the very thought of same sex, erotic attraction to male children by adults – and yes that revulsion definitely has a fear component mixed in – a fear for the safety of ones children and traditional way of life. As every individual occupies a unique place within the sexual orientation continuum, the revulsion to which I refer may be felt more extremely at each end of the continuum then in the center. Nevertheless, the instinctual biases that informed the “anti-gay political depictions” in the 1990s never went away. The initial discussion between Mona and Arth that sparked the need for further discussion speaks to the uncompromising and aggressive nature of those instinctual biases from opposite ends of that continuum; in fact, the very propagation of the human species incessantly relies on the intransigent nature of instinctual bias. Do you think that either Mona or Arth gave a rats ass about your “uplifting story of human empathy and mutual support” at that moment they locked horns?.
There is a very deep seated instinctual component at play in the reactionary rise of the alt-right in recent years. This component speaks to a need for the type of self affirmation that use to be perpetually derived from the culturally dominant nature of local tradition. The feelings derived from the perceived vilification of those traditions by anti-nativist elements on the left will not seek remedy in an intellectual arena. Rather they will be championed by demagogues like Trump. As there has long been a demonstrable connection between repressed sexual aggression and violence, it is not unreasonable to expect that this global reactionary political trend could be accompanied by a good deal of irrational anti-gay violence. Can’t you feel the tension building in your gut?
There was no discussion between Arth and myself. There was also no “need” to further discuss anything that came up in the unfortunate thread Arth began, certainly no need to begin a new sub-thread for it. You might do well to give this entire thread a rest.
There was an exchange between you and Arth that raised the issue of pedophilia on his thread. Everyone can see that that basic fact is true!!! Grow up for Christ sake and take some responsibly for your words and actions.
Karl, dude, very early in the thread *Arth* posted a noxious comment raising the issue of pedophilia, and I and multiple others — including Glenn — gravely objected to what he said. He did not reply to me, he replied to Clark in manner so appalling Glenn deleted it. And there it died…until YOU resurrected it just below in yet another sub-thread.
Why you felt such a pressing need to bring it all up again, who knows? I do again observe, however, that you will not say whether you hold that gay men should not be allowed to adopt — the answer may be why you wouldn’t let the nasty business drop.
I’ve got news for you too Karl. Homosexual attraction, just like heterosexual attraction, is NOT pedophilia. Pedophiles don’t go around trying to adopt kids. Statistically, it would seem they are more likely to become school teachers or clergy. Maybe you should be doing some research into your “concerns.”
The “instinctual revulsion” you’re talking about is programmed into heterosexual males. I know what you’re talking about because I had that revulsion. We go out of our way to make sure we don’t inadvertently touch another male hand. But all you have to do to get over it is be curious, do a little reading. It’s not that hard. Really, Karl.
As I have never claimed this, it is a straw man argument.
I always find it interesting in that in the 50 year wake of failed research that has been conducted to prove that homosexuality is biologically determined, people like yourself go out of their way to make exactly the opposite argument when heterosexual bias is weighed. But hey, go ahead and shoot yourself in the foot while reading those books of yours – I am up for a good laugh!
So what is the point of your comment then. These are two gay men in a long term relationship. You think they’re pedophiles pretending to be gay? What is the reason for your comment? What are you worried about? What EXACTLY IS your “concern?”
I always find it interesting in that in the 50 year wake of failed research that has been conducted to prove that homosexuality is biologically determined
“Failed research” by whom? by Pat Robertson and the 700 Club? You don’t have to read books. You can just read the newspaper everyday and evolve. Or you can meet a gay person. But of course, you’re correct. This whole gay thing is a choice. Gay men and women, just love to be the target of your fake religious sanctimony. They just love being scorned, and driven out of the country, and be the target of your relentless, militant hatred, because they just fucking love to be told how they’re aberrant. They “chose” to be the butt of my every other joke throughout childhood. You’re right. A 2000 year old book that talks about not eating shellfish, selling your daughters into slavery and stoning people, is the right philosophical perspective to draw your wisdom from.
Ordinarily, I would choose a sentence or two that represents the crux of that which is being conveyed as a pretext to responding. Yet, I am at a complete loss to find a single FACT or cogent argument in your response that makes that possible. If you are aware of a single peer reviewed study that has definitively proven that homosexuality is biologically determined then cite it; the fact that you have chosen not to do so speaks volumes. Shouting from atop an imaginary sky high stack of opinion rich books while dressed in a killer clown costume does not change reality a jot. Neither does your desperately feeble attempt to conflate the views of Pat Robertson with my own – in fact, it does just the opposite.
Stop pretending like you give a shit about expanding your ever narrowing horizons, Karl. Stop pretending like you’d change your mind if only, if only, you had come across some fucking evidence. Stop pretending like you don’t have access to google.
Sexual orientation and its basis in brain structure and function:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/30/10273.full
or a simpler explanation
http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1815538,00.html
And if you’re even somewhat interested in the gay experience in the US, for someone growing up in the 60s/70s, try reading Paul Monette’s Becoming A Man.
Try to be a little more Christian, and a little less of a total dick, Karl, notwithstanding the pressures of a 2000 year old iron age philosophy.
So my reply to you, Karl, did not show up, as I think I put more than one link in there. But here’s the gist of my torrent: that you’re pretending to argue in good faith Karl. You’re pretending that any evidence would change your mind. You have your “revulsion” and it looks like you’re content with it, because your bible (Pat Robertson is not too distant an idea), reinforces your personal revulsions, and I doubt you’re really just waiting to be convinced about things like the morality of eating shellfish.
Sexual orientation and its basis in brain structure and function
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/30/10273.full
I’ll put a link to a more palatable version on the subject in a followup.
And if you’re interested in finding about what it is like to be gay, you might want to pick up Paul Monette’s Becoming A Man. It’s an excellent read, and brilliantly written. It’s not about science and all that shit you don’t like. It’s about what it’s like growing up gay in America in the 60s/70s if I remember correctly (I read it about 10 years ago).
Another link on brain structure and sexual orientation.
http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1815538,00.html
Now, I’m not saying that any or all gay people will agree with the ideas propounded in these links. I’m saying that they seem pretty reasonable to me.
I suggest that you read this abstract for yourself which begins: “Current evidence indicates…”. I asked for a single peer reviewed study that has definitively proven that homosexuality is biologically determined – not suggests.
You’re exactly what I thought you were Karl: A piece of shit looking to justify your assholery. It’s a good thing people like you’re going to be extinct soon.
And stop taking those medicines. There is not medicine on this planet, that “definitely” proves to cure ANYTHING. Everything is biology “indicates.” Biology is not physics or chemistry, Karl. That’s something you’d know, if you knew anything about anything outside a 2000 year old book, Karl.
I feel sorry for your kids Karl.
I have been reading “scientific” studies for over forty years that have repeatedly claimed that their findings “indicated” something that turned out not to be true. In fact, psychological studies are the most notorious for using such language. There are approximately forty schools of psychology at the moment and each has its own theories on human behavior and mind. When I first began studying psychology, women were being cited as the cause of schizophrenia and homosexuality was characterized in the DSM-11 as a “mental disorder.” And again, some schools continue to argue that the human brain is tabula rasa at birth while others claim that it is possessed of innate talent. I could literally name scores of contradictory studies on a myriad of subjects that all use terms and phrases such as:
1. Suggestive of
2. indicative of
3. strong statistical corollary
4. statistically significant
The revulsion that many heterosexuals harbor for same sex behaviors was almost universally understood to be an instinctual visceral aversion prior to the 1970s. In lockstep with the politicization of homosexuality however, the language employed to describe and define same sex attraction and revulsion began to reflect that of gay activists within various schools of psychology. The head of the APA at that time described how the Leona Tyler principle was irresponsibly discarded:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NyX5CxGraE
In essence, the principle states that when psychologists are speaking as members of their profession, any advocacy in which they engage should be based on scientific data and demonstrable professional experience.
From that point forward, I have observed various schools of psychology attempt to interpret raw data to conform to a desired outcome. Like wise, many studies are structured in a way that lead to politically desired outcomes (e.g. Kinsey). Since the turn of the century, various schools of psychology have been attempting to advance the argument that “homophobia” is not even a phobia. Rather, they argue that “findings SUGGEST that social conditions and attitudes, not psychological factors, create homophobia.” It is reasoning like this that is deemed a necessary precursor by activists to imposing on society the need for the type of “education” that CONDITIONS it to view their instinctual revulsion as a learned behavior akin to racial prejudice. So spare me your faux outrage Mona/AtheistInChief/Hypatia, you do not have scientific leg to stand on.
Evolution is a theory. Right Karl? You Neanderthal. It only suggests. Right Karl? You Iron Age cave dweller.
I accept your surrender Mona/AtheistInChief/Hypatia
That’s alright with me Karl. Your god surrendered to me a long time ago.
Yes I know, you are a legend in your own mind…
Why don’t you pray to your God and ask him to fuck with my Keyboard, Karl?
Somebody should, your material is terrible.
Yeah, somebody should. But it’ll only prove your god’s powerlessness against the might of my keyboard, Karl. Your god can’t even do what a little bit of spilled coffee can Karl. He’s useless Karl.
Now you are becoming hysterical…
Sorry:
“As there has long been a demonstrable connection between repressed sexual aggression and violence, it is not unreasonable to expect that this global reactionary political trend could be accompanied by a good deal of irrational anti-gay violence.”
Should have read:
“As there has long been a demonstrable connection between repressed sexual aggression and violence, it is not REASONABLE to expect that this global reactionary political trend could be accompanied by a good deal of irrational anti-gay violence?”
Would it be a stretch to say that your stories below have influenced your opinion on Black Lives Matter, where “alternate facts” form the foundation?
If you say so.
Too bad your comments don’t.
Why ask a question that you have already preemptively answered for yourself? Why not be honest and direct instead?
Do you believe there is a difference in the psychological and power dynamic between a heterosexual man who adopts a girl and a homosexual man who adopts a boy? Does one revolt you more than the other? If so, why? What is the difference? What protection does the girl have from her father that the boy does not, exactly?
You will make a fine parent, Glenn. And, Lord only knows, there must be a lot of little kids in the world who could use a good parent, or two.
*fyi, a good measurement of how many children you and David can reasonably handle would be one (1) child for every 3 or 4 dogs… you do the math.
In general, I think you must be kind of a, uh, big wig now, son-brother (an Appalachian term of endearment.), and can well expect a certain amount of the ‘slings and arrows’ of outrageous fortune … and I’m just stunned by the [sheer number of] people who think you supported Trump!
If there’s a better version of heaven for kids than a home in paradise that includes more than a dozen dogs and a monkey on the roof, I can’t imagine what it would be.
Dear Glenn and David,
I want to welcome you, a little in advance, to “The Club.”
The Parent Club that is. Those people you used to see walking down the streets pushing prams? Well soon they won’t seem like such a strange and alien species. You’ll have something in common with them! You’ll see.
You’ll learn that while big fluffy dogs are great, they are no substitute for the real thing. Although I wonder if you’ll wind up with 20 kids to go with your 20 dogs. But that’s what nannies are for! You’ll see.
There are many things you’ll learn about. For instance, you know those aspects of your parents you always hated most? Ever told yourself you’d never be that way? You’ll learn (if you’re lucky) that they’re still alive inside you, but dormant or hiding. Never stop routing them out. Because they’re still in there! You’ll see.
I know each of you has experienced love and joy. But being a parent adds dimensions to those words that you have never experienced. Trust me! You’ll see.
What am I forgetting? Oh, yeah. Fear. Both of you have experienced fear in your lives. Fear for yourself or fear on behalf of someone you care about. Believe me when I say that none of that even approximates the fears you will feel when you worry about your child/children. Sorry! But that’s just part of the package. You’ll see.
I wish you both joy and laughter and learning! But you’d get that anyway :-)
p.s. It’s always a little weird in the beginning, but that goes away quick!
Happy endings and happy stories are fine and dandy and healthy, but, at the risk of being taken as a spoiler, they tend to arise from a much hopeless and more darker background.
I don’t know why race, gender, class … seem to matter so much to most people when it comes to society at large. There are two crucial developmental aspects which makes a huge difference not only to society at large, but too biological and also prospective adoptive families:
1) epigenetics: within the first 3 months of gestation mothers should eat all kind of:
1.1) vitamins + minerals
1.2) plenty of folic acid
1.3) the occasional junk, fatty food vitamins (in order for the enzymes necessary to process cr@p to build)
// __ BBC.The Ghost In Your Genes 2006XviD
dailymotion.com/video/x1f27b5_bbc-the-ghost-in-your-genes-2006xvid_tech
~
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
~
2) we should read to kids from an early age. (Whatever!) Not a single one of my students (school drop out and kids who were incarcerated as youth) were read to as children. If you haven’t been neurobiologically trained to follow ideas from an early age, how could you later in life understand Math, “delayed gratification” or make sense of anything? Kind of like talking (Chomskyan “Universal Language” thing), the kind of mental gymnastics needed to be more than a “legal and biological entity” must be trained from an early age.
RCL
Very interesting and informative story. I wish the family good luck and hope that they will keep building their bonds.
Yeah, yeah, yeah Mona, we know! You have an anecdote for every occasion that, by virtue of your brilliant intelligence and flawless character, should be received as the final word on any subject. This having been said, let me share just one of several personal experiences from childhood. At the tender age of five, I attended my first day of school. After several hours of sitting in a classroom with more than thirty other children, I was forced by nature to ask for permission to leave the classroom to use the bathroom which I believed was located in the basement below. Unescorted, I made my way to the basement where I was immediately encountered by the school’s custodian. He was a dour looking, broad shouldered, pot bellied, unshaven black man in his sixties who was dressed in a tattered flannel shirts and suspender clad overalls. He smelled of smoke and alcohol. Upon blocking my path, he insisted that I had “broken the rules” by entering the basement and that I should follow him to his office. Once we arrived in his office – which was situated down a single flight of stairs from my kindergarten classroom – he immediately exposed himself. He then proceeded to brandish an old, rusty hunting knife which he retrieved from the top drawer of his desk as a pretext to warning me that if I told anyone about his actions that he would kill me and my siblings who were also attending the same school. It was only when hearing my teacher’s footsteps echoing from the stairwell above, that he put away the knife and escorted me to the landing at the base of the staircase. I never told a soul this story during my entire childhood for fear that my family was in imminent danger. But the fun doesn’t stop there.
On my last day of fourth grade, I was hanging out with friends on the landing of a staircase that was situated halfway between my first floor classroom and the basement. It was a staircase that every child took who wanted to exit from the west end of the school through a door that was situated opposite of that which led down a dark stairwell to the basement. In taking purported exception to the volume of noise coming from our last day revelries, the same alcohol sopped custodian emerged from the basement door to the east and grabbed a close friend by the arm and began to drag him down the basement staircase. When I attempted intervene, I was once again threatened with physical violence. It was only be means of immediately reporting him to a teacher who happened by, that my friend was saved from a potentially life-shattering experience. As fate would have it, the 100 year old school was burned down less than a month later; the emotionally disturbed arson who lit the match was a white man in his middle twenties who himself had attended the school decades earlier where he had been repeatedly, and more severely, accosted by the same custodian. He himself had been convicted for sexually accosting prepubescent children at the local park. But the story doesn’t stop there.
My twin brother and myself were sent to different schools as we entered second grade because the powers-that-be felt my brother would better cope without the benefit of having me to lean on. As fate would have it, my brother became a life long friend with a daughter of the aforementioned pedophilic custodian and, over time, was confided in concerning her father’s sexual predilection for the white male children of the privileged “white folk” whose “floors he swept” for more than four decades. Apparently, he had been repeatedly accused of accosting white, prepubescent males for decades while serving as the school’s custodian. Yet the socially progressive school administrators who fielded those complaints decided to keep them “in-house” “for the sake of all concerned.” That tobacco stained, alcohol sopped, child molesting black custodian served at the same school for nearly forty years and was allowed to retire with the maximum pension allowed for years served. He was the father of nine children who themselves were treated to a large daily dose of his violent and hateful rants about the evils of “white folk” which were liberally shared with a thick leather belt for emphasis sake. Hey, don’t go away just yet! This a story that just keeps on giving.
As an adult, I became a healthcare advocate for my older brother who had suffered from “mental illness” for years. His problems first emerged shortly after he began attending the same elementary school. Yet it wasn’t until he was in his fifties that he confided in me that he had been serially raped by the “school’s custodian” for years. In return for his ongoing silence he was treated to candy and chocolate milk. Further disturbing still was the fact he and his peers were allowed to secretly enter the school during summer months where sexual favors were exchanged with the custodian for alcohol, money, candy, cigarettes, and chocolate milk. To a one, they were all white, prepubescent males. Having known many of them myself, I was able to garner first-hand insight into the degree to which a single pedophile can tragically alter the life of the children they molest. My brother alone, spent half of his adult life in the back wards of mental health institutions and/or locked wards of hospitals – doped out of his mind with brain damaging drugs – while learned men of considerable renown chose to receive my brothers drug-slurred claims of sexual abuse as the tortured fantasies of a deeply troubled mind. It was a miracle that I was able to avoid that same fate by remaining ever vigilant against being approached for a second time by that 40 year retiree from civil service.
This is just one of several personal experiences that I personally witnessed as a child while participating in school, church and recreational activities at the local YMCA – Some of which were far more disturbing due to the overtly violent nature of the self-professed, homosexual pedophiles involved. So, too, a number of my catholic friends had similar experiences while serving as alter boys at their neighborhood church. And again, the priest involved was repeatedly reported without ensuing consequence. Male victims of same sex sexual abuse are far less likely to report such experiences to anyone even when anonymously polled. Thus the numbers arising from scientific studies are often accompanied with the caveat that their findings may not reflect the true percentage of males who were victims of same sex child molestation.
“The proportional prevalence of offenders against male children in this group of 457 offenders against children was 36 percent.” See also, Kurt Freund, et al., “Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Erotic Age Preference,” “Approximately one-third of these individuals had victimized boys and two-thirds had victimized girls. This finding is consistent with the proportions reported in two earlier studies.”
Kurt Freund, et al., “Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality,” Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (1984): 197.
p. 107.
P.s. That tobacco stained, alcohol sopped, child molesting, black custodian was a Roosevelt democrat. So tell me, in accepting the inferred significance of your father-in-law’s “pro-life” and “far right” beliefs, should I attach a similar level of significance to fact that my own same-sex accoster was a black, homosexual male with a liberal bent?
That is a heart wrenching story. And I am genuinely sorry you and other children were victimized by that man.
But pedophilia and rape (of children or adults) has nothing to do with androphilia, or civil service status or political affiliation, any more than it is a fact that the vast statistical majority of rapists, spousal abusers, and child abusers–are heterosexuals regardless of the gender of the objects of their abuse or violence.
You understand that, correct?
First of all you facts are incorrect: although the majority of same-sex sexual offenses are attributed to heterosexual males within American culture, homosexual males are at a much higher statistical risk of offending when the the ratio of homosexuality to the population as a whole is considered.
Secondly, It is Mona to whom you should be directing your questions for it is she that was attempting to conflate the purported “gender-egalitarian”, pedophilic behavior of her father-in-law with unrelated facts as if they were extraneous variables.
Karl, do you hold that homosexual men in same-sex marriages should not be allowed to adopt?
Typical Mona… changing the subject instead of acknowledging her false inferences. Sorry, I refuse to play that game with you.
Citation? Same 1984 cite or another? And I’m genuinely asking out of curiosity, but can you support the above assertion with multiple citations to independent studies.
Thanks in advance. Genuinely, if you have those cites available for sharing and review.
It’s unfortunate this discussion did not remain in the sub-thread below. I was undecided as to whether even to reply to Karl and thereby perpetuate it up here.
If “they” have a way of moving it down there I wish they would.
It should all be deleted. Period.
I’m feeling gross even engaging it and forcing the issue of “proof” which I’m quite convinced doesn’t exist, which I was doing only to prove a point–that it doesn’t exist.
Why don’t speak directly to the fact that you attempted to make people draw a false inference from your conflation of facts instead?
The proportions of heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles among sex offenders against children: an exploratory study.
Freund K1, Watson RJ.
Abstract
Previous investigations have indicated that the ratio of sex offenders against female children vs. offenders against male children is approximately 2:1, while the ratio of gynephiles to androphiles among the general population is approximately 20:1. The present study investigated whether the etiology of preferred partner sex among pedophiles is related to the etiology of preferred partner sex among males preferring adult partners. Using phallometric test sensitivities to calculate the proportion of true pedophiles among various groups of sex offenders against children, and taking into consideration previously reported mean numbers of victims per offender group, the ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles was calculated to be approximately 11:1. This suggests that the resulting proportion of true pedophiles among persons with a homosexual erotic development is greater than that in persons who develop heterosexually. This, of course, would not indicate that androphilic males have a greater propensity to offend against children.
My just-deceased, ex-father-in-law was very probably also abused by his father. That father ended up in prison for homicide. Both men were married to women.
Another anecdote about my former father-in-law is that at a family picnic in the late ’80s, he went on a rant about how the young men coming forward to accuse Catholic priests were all lying and in it for the money. It would be fair to say that whatever was the look on my face it must have communicated a lot; when he saw it he shut up.
What is significant is that “Arth” is a far-right Trump supporter who posted vile and bigoted garbage (some of it now deleted) about the two fathers Glenn wrote of above. Such profiles as Arth’s absolutely do not preclude being the actual molesters.
You have repeatedly claimed that I am a far right Trump supporter in spite of ample evidence to the contrary – so don’t try to sell me on that pile of shit.
But for argument sake lets entertain the claim that arth’s purported disgust for same sex message has a hidden tangential relation to his preference for trump, then I believe that Glenn made a big mistake by censoring a response that was so emblematic of the very sentiments to which same sex couples are subjected when moving to adopt. In this context, Arth’s comments spoke plainly to the hidden undercurrents of emotion that are sweeping conservatives into power in countries across the globe. It might behoove the progressive left to weigh their own theory of blow-back in context to decades of attempting to artificially accelerate the natural evolution of nativist sensibilities or to supplant them altogether as we are barely into the leading edge of that reactionary wave of change.
Yes, and this is the problem… highly functioning sociopaths are very good at hiding their true nature behind words and actions that are specifically adopted for that purpose. Science had yet to devise a full proof mean by which the sexual predilections of people can be properly detected and weighed – although brain imaging show some promise. The story that I recounted suggests an exponential growth in generational pedophilia. Ninety percent of convicted pedophiles report being sexually abused as children.
Karl, you have given every indication that you supported Donald Trump in the last election. Is that not, in fact, the case? If you unambiguously deny it I will retract it and not say it again.
Arth is “disgusted” by same-sex sexual behavior. If you are going to seriously suggest that individuals most inclined to object to such activities are not far more likely be conservative Republicans than not, then you are too unreasonable to merit my continuing this discussion.
And I do not believe it was a mistake. But it’s irrelevant what either of us thinks. It’s clear what Glenn feels.
Sorry Mona, you have repeated failed to address my questions to you so you can expect like treatment. What you think of me carries no weight with anyone who possess an ounce of common sense because it is your unremitting habit to mischaracterize the views everyone who disagrees with you and Glenn.
Hell, I have long since employed a strategy of reading the posts of those contributors that you are most anxious to vilify as I am certain that they are the most worthy of consideration.
No, you are not sorry. You just called me a sociopath. After resurrecting this entire ugly line of discussion. Something is deeply wrong with anyone who’d need to carry on like that all of that in this thread of all threads.
I tried to get you to climb off the ledge by offering to withdraw something you implied was false about you, an offer which you rebuffed. (It isn’t false anyway. Your ugly commentary and mean-spirited behavior in this thread are entirely of a piece with so many in the Trump camp, and your pro-Trump position has long been obvious.)
You win, your right, I’m not sorry. You are the narcissistic sociopath who first made mention of pedophilia on this thread in service to your overly inflated sense of self. Are you happy now that I am back in character?
Karl that is literally deranged. Arth first brought up pedophilia and I told him, among other things, he should leave that filth out of a thread like this. Glenn deleted some of **ARTH.** And then it died in that sub-thread until *you* brought it up here again.
Exactly two people have started sub-threads here about pedophilia — ARTH AND YOU. There is something wicked disturbing about watching someone so negatively obsessed with yourself that they either cannot see — or just brazenly lie about — what is clear to anyone who can read.
Jesus, man, what you’ve been doing here is bizarre.
“Karl that is literally deranged. Arth first brought up pedophilia and I told him, ”
yes, you told him, and us, all about your twisted thoughts.
over and over.
Arth is just another mona puppet.
she sows outrage so she can respond to the outrage.
she’s like a firefighter who sets fires.
I wouldn’t doubt that for a second as well…
Different sex couples are perfectly capable of abusing children, believe it or not karl? If you apply one standard to one type of couple and a different one to another, that is a prejudice. Simple as that.
Apparently you haven’t read a word that I have written about my own personal experiences with pedophilia wherein the offender was married and the father of nine children. Likewise your arguments are, at best, underdeveloped:
1. “Abuse” can mean many things
2. “Different sex couples” could be interpreted in a number off ways
3. In attempting to articulate my purported hypocrisy you have failed to identify any “standard” or “contradiction.”
You can lead a Karl to water, but you can’t make it think. I read your previous posts and my surmisal was what I posted. If you can only deflect, don’t waste my time. guh-bye karl.
In the use of sock puppets you can fool some of the people some of the time…
Also, Karl, your citation appears to be both dated and inaccurate:
Don’t want to destroy this heartwarming piece and thread with too much off-topic stuff (not that this necessarily is off-topic but related), but I’ve always argued that the real power in the world (women), if ever organized and harnessed effectively, could change everything:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/06/women-strike-trump-resistance-power
The neoliberals and the mainstream media coverage seem determined to downplay the economic issues.
It reminds me of the revisionism around MLK Jr… where his civil rights efforts are heralded but anti-war and economic equality efforts are ignored.
Thanks, Glenn, for such a wonderful, heartwarming story. I want to add my best wishes to the two of you.
Nice to wake up and see this. A wonderful story, and beautifully written.
Wonderful piece. Glenn’s unwavering humanity since I started reading him 11+ years ago is what sets him apart and is a beacon for the rest of us. Glenn, the best to you and David in your journey.
Lovely story, Glenn, and fine reporting. Having followed you from before your time at Salon I can say that this further shows your journalistic range and human sensitivity. Good job.
Happy for Glenn and David. This book is worth its weight in gold.
https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/1451663889
While this is a heartwarming story, it’s doesn’t solve the larger societal issue described here:
There are two issues: Why is Brazil a poor country (1), and why is there no social safety net (2)? Why no FDR-style New Deal (without which we wouldn’t have, for example, Social Security, etc.)? Why can’t Brazil crawl out of the 19th century mentality, and why have its social reform programs ended as such disasters? The same goes for Venezuela. It’s either rule by corrupt wealthy families, or rule by inept socialist reformers who think they can use resource sales (i.e. oil money) to finance their reform programs. That will never work; only manufacturing has ever lifted countries out of widespread poverty.
One very plausible explanation is that this state of affairs is actually a deliberate perpetuation of neocolonialism, that the United States and Europe and China don’t want an independent South American industrial power, that in the grand IMF/World Bank scheme of things, development in Brazil must be perpetually sabotaged, since its role is to supply raw materials and cheap agricultural products to the world. Corruption and poverty in Brazil help to serve this agenda.
I agree (though I would put it differently) except for the last clause. There is nothing special about manufacturing. Brazilians could become rich by producing cars, yes, but they could also become rich by producing services. If Brazilians had the best accountants, lawyers, and doctors in the world, they could concentrate on those industries and let citizens of other nations dig the coal and make the cars (and then Brazilians could use their services to buy those goods). There is no non-sentimental reason for your longstanding attachment to tangible manufactured goods, and there is no reason Brazil can’t become rich without a single factory in country. In fact, the U.S., home of the richest average household in world history, produces more in services than in manufactured products by a factor of about 4 to 1, depending slightly on how you define industries.
So what? A totally meaningless statistic, even assuming it is true, which you haven’t established.
And you teach “economics” to undergrads? Wow!
Here are better measures that actually means something, and the US leads in none of them except to the extent they are one of the leaders in the last one, income inequality, that most don’t really want to lead in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Or this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
Or this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
rrheard, perhaps you should address my first reply to nuf said, which addresses this “average” hangup and makes the same argument and point without reference to the average. Or are you just interested in saying, repeatedly, that I shouldn’t be a professor? (rhetorical)
“rrheard, perhaps you should address my first reply to nuf said, which addresses this “average” hangup and makes the same argument and point without reference to the average. ”
You replaced your use of “average” with “median”. You do realize those words are synonyms? How childish and exceptional of you to prepare a null response. You move the goal posts and claim your argument stands; you stand in a pile of self-serving crap.
And I gave a detailed account of your expected standard of living if randomly dropped into each country. Read it again!
Median and average are not synonyms. You are retarded.
“Median and average are not synonyms. You are retarded.”
God, I meant mean, not median.
Please explain how 8 guys hold 1/3 of the world’s wealth while simultaneously explaining how things are better?
Supply-side econ has been a pox since the 80s yet you keep selling.
If you think I’m a supply-sider, you don’t what the term means. Color me surprised.
If you meant mean, not median, then your earlier comment makes no sense whatsoever, since the claim was that changing my reference to median had no bearing on your objection to my prior use of “average.” There is no way to make that comment not retarded, nuf.
My point in this thread is that services count too, not just manufacturing. Your question is misaddresed. It does not address a position I hold. That implied position is not true, nor have I have ever said anything resembling, the claim that more wealth concentration=better. In other words, shove your question up your straw ass.
I am, in fact, a Jameson man. Well done.
Don’t you have a book (or two) to read?
“There is no way to make that comment not retarded, nuf.”
You realize the term ‘retarded’ is not used really for obvious reasons.
Mean or median doesn’t change the thrust of my argument that you averaged 8 people with 1/3 of 7 billion (~) and claimed things are better.
Stermole was my main text for engineering economics (pick that apart, please).
You championed America’s high average salary while we have 8 fuckers holding 1/3 of 7 billion people’s money.
When did you not say, “anything resembling, the claim that more wealth concentration=better. ” again?
Here’s a tip; Bushmills and Jameson scotch is manufactured as a single product but sold with different labels for different markets. You get that. One is sold to Protestants while the other is sold to Catholics. Can you guess which is which?
(You’re safe)
Do yourself a favor and get a decent single malt such as 30 yr-old Oban. It’s spendy but so much better in every regard. Unless you are drinking it like wine …
If you’ll allow me to kill two birds with one stone, the reason I write under a psuedonym (which rrheard has trouble with) is so that I can say things like (you are a) “fucking retard,” but thanks for the hot tip that that term is in popular disrepute.
Why would I want to rip apart your (dusty, unopened) engineering textbook?
I did not champion high average salary. I referenced high average wealth. Salary and wealth are not synonyms. I then referenced high median (not skewed by outliers — for some reason I felt the need to say that) wealth, to address in good faith your’s and the other red herring connoisseur’s (who posts under his real name, rrheard, pronounced errrrrd.) objection to the mean I referenced because it is skewed by very wealthy people. So I changed it to try to again make the point, with another measure to which your objection does not apply, that it is not just manufacturing goods that matter, which is obviously bolstered by an empirical reference to a rich country that is mostly service-based. Yet you still think I am just apologizing for the ultra rich or whatever. I have no idea why I even talk to you. HERE IS MY SOLE POINT: SERVICES MATTER IN WEALTH CREATION TOO. If you disagree, perhaps with time you’ll be able to just let it go. But I’m right, and you’re retarded, so shut the fuck up already.
Don’t you have a Jew to blame?
“… richest average household in world history, produces more in services than in manufactured products by a factor of about 4 to 1, …”
In what way does Bill Gates’ wealth impact the “richest average household in world history”?
Your statement is disingenuous and self-serving as you are promoting off-shore manufacturing and service-sector jobs as desirable. Look at how rich the nation (as a whole) is!
The manufacturing of material goods under one set of economic conditions and then selling those goods into a market with different economic conditions allows for excessive wealth diversion from the market.
That is why 8 individuals hold 1/3 of the world’s wealth.
I posted a reply comment, noting that “richest average household. . . ” is a meaningless statistic with three links to actual measures that mean something and America doesn’t lead in any of them, except one America as a “first world/industrialized” shouldn’t lead in–economic inequality.
And if Macroman isn’t just being disingenuous, and actually believes “average household” is a meaningful economic statistic, then it is doubly scary he teaches any subject to anybody, much less “economics” to undergrads.
Guess my comment is hung up in the moderation void because of the multiple links. Hopefully it will appear sooner rather than later.
good ol’ TI comments. Reminds me of the days of Halo-scam … that was bloggers way of etherealizing comments for eternity.
I agree Macroman is probably not being disingenuous on a personal level. He believes his own falsehoods.
Wealth distribution in histogram would be much more revealing.
I believe he is being disingenuous on a professional level by implying a simple average generates a meaningful observation such as he does. Most especially with the know outliers like Gates, Bezos, etc.
I thought his appeal to the attachment of quaint ideas was, well, cute …
rrheard,
I addressed some of your first point in my reply to nuf said. The U.S. is top in average and median incomes if you exclude small, special cases with immense per capita wealth for reason beyond our discussion, like Brunei, Luxembourg. Anyway, I’m sure your understood my point and are just being disingenuous. :)
The insults are old, and you’ll just have to get over that I’m a professor. I don’t need your permission.
You’re speaking nonsense. Recommended reading: David Ricardo, On the Principles of Political Economy and Taxation, 1817. The fact that gains from trade arise from “different economic conditions” is proven therein. In other words, your view is contrary to demonstrable truth, which has been in print for 200 years. There is no excuse for your idiocy, attributing losses precisely to the source of gains. Read a book!
Give me a break. What does that even mean? Bill Gates is part of the market, too, you know. Rich people (even jews!) are still people, nuf.
Bringing up income inequality as a response to my point (which had nothing to do with income inequality) is a perfect example of a red herring. Just replace “average” with “median” in my argument, and the point still stands. You’re attacking “average” as if the argument depends on that word. Maybe you’re just being disingenuous, but my well-informed guess is you’re stupid. Bill Gates is one of many millions of Americans that have higher living standards than many millions of Brazilians, regardless of the Gini coefficients applicable to the two countries. If I drop you randomly into the U.S. population, you have a >95% chance of having a climate-controlled abode with television and the electricity to run it while you’re eating three meals a day. If I drop you randomly into the Brazilian population, you have 25% of having a dirt floor and an 8% chance of chronic malnourishment. Would you prefer a randomly selected job in the U.S. now, a randomly selected job in Saudi Arabia now, or a randomly selected job in the U.S. circa 1950? (Saudi Arabia has the heaviest concentration of heavy industry, and lowest of services, of any country in the world.) If you would pick the first option, then we already agree regarding manufacturing and services, and you’re just trolling. You say you’re an engineer — presumably you sell your skills to employers or customers and you don’t actually build the bridge (or whatever; I don’t know what type of engineer you pretend to be.). Is that hurting wealth inequality? How would inequality change if you actually built the bridge yourself, instead of designing it? (These are rhetorical questions.)
My view may be “self-serving” (which, uh, wouldn’t be an argument against it, you know, and your opinions must be as well, from your perspective, otherwise you wouldn’t have them), it isn’t “disingenuous” since it’s correct, whereas your view is incorrect. That’s the distinction here that matters, rather than who benefits from from a shift from manufacturing to services, or who is “self-serving,” or how much the richest 8 people in the world own. Ignoring that, and calling others disingenuous, says everything the uninitiated readers of this comment section need to know about you, nuf said. To be fair, at least you didn’t blame the Jews this time.
“Give me a break. What does that even mean? Bill Gates is part of the market, too, you know. Rich people (even jews!) are still people, nuf.”
So you trot out Rich. Lives. Matter. That is a self-serving argument i.e. one that cannot stand well on its own.
It is patently disingenuous to infer a simple average is meaningful. Put wealth on a histogram; you’d probably have to put it on a log scale to even see it.
“Wealth diversion” is when the CEO makes 300-400 times the salary of average workers and then banks it.
Spent money is what maintains an economic system. You claim 8 people controlling 1/3 of the worlds wealth is normal. I claim it is the inevitable result of a system of bankers still operating as the did “200 years” ago when they laundered profits from the Opium Wars against China. Now the fucking bankers are waging an opium war against America and Wells-Fargo is there every step of the way to keep profit rolling in not matter the impact to the citizens.
And WTF is up with “(even jews!)” Are you Jewish? You argue as Shylock did in the past. You are justifying ‘take as much as you can’ regardless of the impact. That is the parable of The Merchant of Venice. (go ahead, dis Shakespeare, again)
Macroman: “self-serving” is not an argument.
Nuf said: That’s self-serving!
Wonderful.
Most of your comment just says, “I didn’t read Macroman’s reply to my idiotic position that the argument depends on “average.”‘ I would write it again but you won’t read it.
No, you still hold to a psuedo-circular flow view of the economy. Regardless, resources are scarce, not money. Your quote above is the equivalent of saying “2+2=3″ in the subject you’re a self-proclaimed expert in.
No I didn’t. It is easier to reply to things I didn’t say, though, so I understand.
I am a reformed Catholic (atheist). I don’t harbor bigotry toward Jews based on ignorance and stupidity, though, and people that do, like you, are fun to make fun of.
You included them in your average of wealth; you normalized the outliers when you averaged.
You weighted Bill Gates as a common laborer.
You are not even aware of the machinations that drive your greed.
Don’t you have some poor undergrads to torment?
Look up median and try to figure out how it addresses your concerns here. Also look up weighted and simple averages and learn how to speak precisely when you want to discuss precise things, like math. Bill Gates counts as one man because it is a simple average, i.e. not a weighted average. I suspect I was able to decipher your blather the way you meant it, but good god, man, I don’t believe you’ve ever cracked a math book.
“Don’t you have some undergrads to torment?”
You’ve said that, verbatim, twice to me before. Might be time to come up with third insult (this one and some variation of “drunk” is your whole repertoire).
” Might be time to come up with third insult (this one and some variation of “drunk” is your whole repertoire).”
As you toss the pejorative “retard” about …
I treat you as the fool you appear.
That’s the only part you want to respond to, nuf? I can’t come up with a reason why…oh, you’re embarrassed about being…retarded. Fucking retard.
I apologize for the insinuation that you consume Bushmills in excess. That was presumptuous of me.
Clearly, you are a Jameson man …
” Just replace “average” with “median” in my argument, and the point still stands. ”
That is one of the most wretched statements I have read. You are ignoring wealth distribution. If your point was emphasis that economics is not scientific in anyway then “your point still stands.” as tall as the point on your cap.
I missed that the first time. It fits with your early tossing of the race card.
You defend your greed as if you are entitled to it because you’ve figured out how to deprive people of more and more. That was the position of Shylock; he had a contract that he knew would injury severely the party in debt to him. Just like the bankers have been doing; selling junk mortgages regardless of the injury caused.
So what if people are on the streets and suffer? So what if my pound of flesh causes him to bleed?.
History is full of truth about the carnage of greed.
At least you read it.
No. My initial comment is that a country can get richer by making services, not just by making manufactured goods. All of your other points are responses to THINGS YOU ARE MAKING UP.
Yeah the same guy who admits his labor theory of “value” couldn’t accurately account for prices (or “value”). A real genius.
And, “that gains from trade arise from different economic conditions” is a borderline tautology that means nothing, in the same way “richest average household” means very little if anything.
The relevant question, normatively and morally, is how and in what proportion should the “gains from trade” be distributed to all those involved in the production of any given good or service.
Or here’s another one–should all the human beings who are involved in the complicated and interconnected global division of labor that produces all the goods and services we all depend upon for our mutual benefit and survival (and that of the biosphere we all depend upon for our existence) . . . have a meaningful say in the allocative/distributive decisions that undergird all production, consumption and wealth distribution decisions . . . or just the “capitalists” among us?
Now of course, you, as someone who would probably be aptly described as a marginalist, might not ever grasp what Hegel, or Philip Pilkington, or Kojève (nephew of famous artist Wassily Kandinsky), or Veblen, or Duesenberry . . . were talking about, but other economists likely do, if they care to. But those that do don’t usually turn to Ricardo to prop up an argument.
I could go on for hours, but I think you get the point.
Depends on how you look at things I suppose, and “economists” have done a very poor job of providing answers to those questions. IMHO
The labor theory of value is beside the point — read the book, you’ll see. Besides, the labor theory of value is due to Adam Smith, whose book presenting it (The Wealth of Nations) did have some things to offer besides an erroneous value theory. Regardless, I suspect you do not dismiss Marx out of hand, and his entire theory depends crucially on a labor theory of value.
I’m not sure I follow the relevance of this to my argument, but my response is simply, “Fine, but there must be gains from trade before they can be distributed.” In this conversation, then, I’m just pointing out to photosymbiosis not to focus exclusively on manufacturing. That would be an error.
The long-winded question in the middle — my answer is “yes,” and in a system of voluntary trade (with courts to enforce contracts and so on) provides exactly that. You had dictatorial control over the uses of your after-tax income, and there is nothing in your house you didn’t choose to put there. But that’s not what you mean, is it? You want control over other people and there money and their consumption. Yet you are the moral one here. OK, rrheard, whatever you say.
First, I referenced Ricardo because the gains from trade arguments originate there and survive to this day in that form, so that is the appropriate reference. Second, your point here just dressed-up ad hominem that devolves to “Macroman is stupid.” I wonder about you, rrheard. What kind of person, for years, makes the same vacuous insults to the same person and rarely actually engages in the conversation? What’s the point? I don’t care that you think I’m stupid, if you’re hung up on that.
Also, Hegel (when he addressed it rather than broad history or politics) and Veblen would be competing for the title of “Worst Economist of All Time” if Marx didn’t run away with it. Your references to them just show you’re stupid and can’t read Dennett or Feyerabend or Rorty (I’m mocking you, yes.).
You can’t be serious.
You don’t get it. I don’t think you’re stupid. I think your misguided and brainwashed by your own ideology. And I cited to some non-economists to make a point. Clearly it flew right over your head as I expected it would.
Gould is more right than Dennett, Feyerabend’s basically a crank and Rorty, give me a break. And if you think citing those three for anything gives you a right to mock me, all I can do is laugh at how less smart I think you are now than I thought before.
And the kind of person I am, is one who understands the fundamental flaws in the foundational premises of your misguided ideology and “profession”. You ask the wrong questions and wonder why you never get the right answers. It’s because your “economics” is closer to theological belief than it is to reality, at least for most in your profession particularly on your side of the ideological ledger.
I don’t have “dictatorial control over the uses of my after-tax income” and neither do you nor does anybody. I am not free, at least not legally anyway, to do whatever I choose with my money from being unfree to spend it on a hitman to buying illegal drugs to child pornography to explosives to dumping motor oil into the storm sewer . . . nor should I be.
Moreover, almost every single thing in “my house” is a hand-me-down from my parents except the clothes in my closet. I’m basically an anti-consumer. If I can’t eat/drink it, wear it, be transported by it, or cook with it, I basically don’t buy it. And haven’t for the last 9 years. And before then only while I was married, and that was just to keep the marital peace. And when I do consume something, I do everything in my power to buy American, for very obvious reasons, unlike presumably, someone like you a “free trading” “libertarian/propertarian” uber alles types, because I know what “price” leaves out and what it doesn’t.
Absolutely, I want “democratic” control over others money, in some respects, particularly hyper-rich individuals who use their money for anti-democratic purposes, or corporations who pollute the air and water we all breathe, and including all manner and types of “regulations” that restrict how others can spend their money. I’ve never once hidden that agenda.
By comparison to you, and the shallow “economics” idiocy you peddle for money together with your blinkered “me first” propertarian worldview, and as a function of your former “career”–absofuckinglutely.
A grifter trying to dress up what he peddles in academia to attain the veneer of respectability. Nothing more in my eyes.
Hell I’d have had more respect for you in your former profession, at least most sensible people recognized it for the grift it is, and you probably didn’t try and delude yourself into seeing yourself as anything but a financial grifter, unlike in academia, where you’re convinced you are teaching others something of real world value. You aren’t.
I mean I don’t think much of conmen, but I appreciate the level of dedication they display to making their cons seem reasonable and to identifying good marks.
That’s why I engage you at all–for my own amusement and to try and teach others not to take you and your thoughts on economics seriously.
Next paragraph: I now think you’re dumber now than I did before.
I think you missed the mockery — the substance of the philosophers I mention is irrelevant. I could have picked Ronald McDonald, and the point stands. Regardless, that whole section of your previous comment is just, “I’m smart, you’re stupid. See: appeal to the authority of these names I can spell.” Brilliant, as always.
Then blah, blah, blah, language you’ve repeated dozens of times to dozens of people….
Then, “…I engage you…” (I think you mean “troll” rather than engage, but whatever) to undermine your influence in an internet comment section. Again, you’re a sad sack of shit if you have time for that in your life. That said, I welcome your continued efforts. I could never make myself look as smart as I do next to you.
P.S. I don’t care about your consumption habits.
Spoken like a morally bankrupt “college professor” who peddles bullshit to young folks for money, and anonymously comments on the internet.
You thinking you look smart compared to me is laughable–an economics professor who apparently has the time to sit around and comment and fight with me on the internet? Seriously, professor, I work in the business of attempting to achieve justice for human beings, not amass personal wealth and peddle cons to kids.
The fact that you’re purportedly a professor who is too much of a coward to post under his own name, unlike me, demonstrates exactly one thing to me–you won’t back up your opinions on any topic under your own name, because then you’d have the misfortune of me mocking you openly and refuting your bullshit which would probably impact the number of dupes who sign up for your silly classes.
Like I’ve always said, happy to engage you openly on any of your supposed “scholarship” as soon as you come out from behind your pseudonym–professor–and identify any of your supposed “scholarship”.
Until then you’re just the latest anonymous purveyor of your morally bankrupt rebranded neo-feudalist bullshit to frequent Glenn’s work. And I’m going to continue to call it out every time you peddle it here, whether you like it or not, professor.
Awesome.
I’m bad because of my job and my opinions mean I’m immoral. What’s that you always say? “Booooorrrrriiinnngggg” or maybe “Yaaaaaaawwnnnnn.” Something clever like that.
I do have a whole portion of my life dedicated to open debate under my real name. This scratches a different itch. Woulda thunk that was obvious (especially since I’ve patiently explained to you before why people sometimes might want to use pseudonyms). Attack the man, never the ball, rrheard. You’ll really show other readers what a con I am!
We all know and appreciate your hard work for human rights in Oregon, and you are a shining example of why lawyers have the untarnished reputation they have, completely unlike economists.
Like it?!?!?! I LOVE your presence beneath almost every comment I make on this site. If one were a moderately good commenter with minority opinions in the setting, one would expect to have dedicated trolls like you and nuf said. I take it as compliment, but as I have remarked to you previously, I hope to earn better trolls in the future.
“I do have a whole portion of my life dedicated to open debate under my real name. ”
I agree with you Macroman, rr does not have much more credit for using is real name. It’s pretty obvious he has some expertise. I’m not sure why you would mock his court victories against fraudulent mortgage lenders.
But then you mock Shakespeare without explanation. The notion of lending without regard to injury is pretty rank behavior; especially when the borrowers are left holding the bag while lenders get bail-outs and parachutes.
So you are claiming rr is a shining example of a tarnished reputation which economists deserve; check.
I’d say the economy is the reason for the tarnish on said economist’s reputation, plus the pseudo-science of economics itself.
You and errrrd (I prefer the phonetic spelling.) have a real tough time with mockery. I’m not mocking anybody’s glorious and just court victories. I’m mocking errrrd, and his belief that “I’m good , you’re bad” with the “look at our jobs” addendum is some sort of argument. That tact leads me to believe that a labrador could achieve whatever errrrd has in the courtroom.
Your paraphrasing of the reputation bit is another glaring example of your, uh, retarded understanding of mockery. I don’t believe nor have I ever claimed claimed that economics has a good reputation, and I was, again, mocking errrd and his belief that standing on the good reputation of lawyers (wow) is some sort of argument to be deployed to undo my immoral propaganda. I bet that guy wears a cape.
You really are a simple fellow.
P.S. Jameson is not scotch.
yes, but you have primarily mentioned technological and political aspects. There are very important issues relating to the societal mindset that must be backing politics and technology.
We Westerners like to think of ourselves as direct descendants of the most pure Athenian spirit because we formally and to some extent use their societal technologies. Yes, we barely manage to understand voting (I don’t vote, by the way, to me it is like factually believing in Santería) and the word “democracy” comes from Greek, but all of that to them had an actual –meaning– backed by minds held by sturdy spines, which we don’t have nowadays in an era of celebrities, reggaeton, political correctness, “social media”, … Amazing! Greek teens could find their way to the bathroom without having to text a friend! Oh, wait they didn’t even have cell phones in those times?!?
After putting up for 8 years with the black @ss of Mr. “Yes we can”, “it turns out I am better at killing people than I could have ever imagined”; “We the people” have abysmally chosen to deal, hopefully for only 4, with Trump’s orange one … ; yet, we still don’t get the problem is not “democracy”, stupid!
Athenians did not only make sense of themselves in those times of crass social inequalities and paganism (try to imagine a society in which each family had its own Gods!) by doing something that could be seen in those times as some sort of transparently and openly functioning “organized socialism”, but ultimately prevailed among classical Greek peoples and beat the sh!t out of a way more powerful and peopled Achaemenid/Persian empire (kind of the gringos of those times)
I am glad at least three kids found a relatively stable home. Gandhi said: “The world has enough for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed”. We have improved somewhat! The greedy ones seem to be a less and lesser % of “We the people”, but they still hold us all “by our pussies” …
RCL
You’re ignoring the fact that American wealth (increasing concentrated in fewer and fewer hands) is still fundamentally based on manufactured goods; those goods are now produced in China, Mexico, India, Bangladesh, Malaysia, etc. using low-cost labor with high levels of local pollution and unsafe working conditions; but under so-called “free trade” deals the capital flows are unrestrained (with profits typically banked in some tax haven country like Panama or Ireland or Delaware) and evenually make their way back into the coffers of American investment banks and hedge funds; that’s how all those “services” are paid for.
If the capital flows from manufactured goods were suddenly cut off for any reason at all, there would a massive economic collapse in the United States; 401k funds would go bankrupt; it’d be as serious, if not more serious, than the Great Depression. Moving those manufacturing jobs back to the United States is very important for several reasons (restoring the economic health of the Rust Belt states that backed Trump, etc.)
I’m well confused by your comment, and so my responses below may be misguided — please let me know if they are.
No, that is incorrect. I’m saying the opposite, and if I understand you correctly, this isn’t a matter of opinion and reasoned disagreement. If Ford is based in Detroit and the cars are produced in Mexico and sold in the U.S., the value-added in manufacturing accrues to Mexican GDP (and, therefore, Mexican incomes) and the value-added by the executives, accountants, etc. accrues to U.S. incomes. We can disagree on how much the CEO “should” be paid or how such pay should be determined, but we can’t have an informed disagreement on where the income and wealth goes as a fact and, again, as a fact, whether U.S. citizens’ wealth is derived from production of goods rather than services. Perhaps it doesn’t matter — my only point to you is that services count too, and there is no reason that Brazil must produce tangible manufactured goods to get richer. That would be true even if the U.S. was 100% manufacturing — I just brought it up an example that made my point (because it is majority service-based).
You’re right that free trade deals are just “so-called.”
I assume by “capital” you mean money.
Are you arguing that goods can only be paid for by goods and not by services? That I couldn’t pay you for mowing my lawn by doing your taxes?
Your predictions may be true, but I don’t know why it matters to our discussion. I’m open to the possibility that that’s my fault,
Same as your original point, just the Rust Belt instead of Brazil, so, see: my first reply.
It’s not that complicated. Look at who owns GM, for example, the top ten institutional shareholders, between them holding about $17 billion in GM stock.
Vanguard Group, Inc. (The)
Harris Associates L.P.
State Street Corporation
Berkshire Hathaway, Inc
Franklin Resources, Inc
JP Morgan Chase & Company
BlackRock Institutional Trust Company,
FMR, LLC
Capital Research Global Investors
Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.
So if GM moves manufacturing to Mexico with no penalty and cuts labor costs from $30/hr to $5/hr for entry level workers, and keep selling cars at the same price, then the differential is all profit to the shareholders, correct? Who are mainly based in the United States, correct? And then they can go spend that money on their private medical insurance and their legal advisors and their vacations and dining out and buying expensive clothes (made overseas as well) – mostly, “services.”
So yes, it does all run on the control of manufacturing, doesn’t it? And yes, if Brazil was to raise its standard of living, it would have to become a more industrialized nation, wouldn’t it?
Do the same thought experiment with a firm that provides services. JPM Chase, for instance, has whole subsets of its operations done in India. So just leave out any mention of manufactured goods and your argument (for what it’s worth) is the same. THAT’S MY POINT. Your sole focus on manufactured goods is a mistake.
Answers to your questions, in order:
1) Not necessarily. Presumably prices will fall and the consumer will benefit. There is no golden rule of profit such that lower costs–>higher profits. You have have strict ceteris paribus to say that, which of course we lack in reality. You could have a breakeven firm lower costs and all of the benefits of that accrues to customers in a competitive market, in the extreme case.
2) I don’t know off hand and don’t understand why it matters to the discussion. But I don’t think so, anyway; the rest of the world has huge stakes in U.S. firms, so the national boundaries portion of your case isn’t getting any traction (though perhaps I misunderstand you.)
3) No.
4) No.
Indeed.
“Presumably prices fall and the consumer will benefit.”
Regurgitated arguments from NAFTA promoters in the early 1990s. Compare to actual data on car prices since outsourcing began – no, they haven’t fallen, they’ve increased. Your entire argument is nonsense; clearly the neoliberal policies championed by academic economists over the past decades are just a means of concentrating wealth in the hands of a few people. This is directly linked to increasing poverty in both Brazil and the United States.
Not from NAFTA, from Marshall, 1890.
The real (inflation adjusted) price of cars has fallen nearly uninterrupted since the end of WW2, as has the price of electronics and other things we outsourced. You couldn’t be any more incorrect.
Yes, you’re right, my entire life is dedicated to making the .01% richer. You sure are astute! Even so, maybe you could confront the arguments rather than just impugning my motives.
The Superbowl party I attended last night was hosted by a couple that adopted 5 siblings aged 1-12. It isn’t as rosy as this story but the kids and parents are much happier than they were and it is working out a lot better than I expected (I, perhaps wrongly, encouraged them NOT to do this.). These kids were horrifically sexually abused and otherwise neglected and suffer from the physical and mental consequences of that. The (adoptive) mother spends much of her time getting the kids mental health services, which involves a lot of time and money. They completely renovated their house in preparation for the children’s arrival, and it has been all but destroyed — holes in walls, ripped up carpets, etc. However, everybody seems content, and the parents plan to adopt the sixth child of the biological mother when born.
My view until this point in my life was that abused kids can’t be un-abused or fixed, and so the damage is done. Sad, yes, but let’s all move on. The passage of the article describing the continued development of humans throughout their lives was obviously true, but I had to read it before I agreed with that view. I was looking at it from the wrong perspective. The question isn’t “Will these kids have a good life?” but rather “Will these kids have a better life?”
I will just tell you that this isn’t entirely or importantly true. It very much depends on the kind and context of what you may consider to be “abuse”. To me it is abusive, borderline criminal, letting children waste their childhood ferally playing with computer cr@p and watching TV instead of, say, practice sports and socially interact while playing with other kids outdoors (which you need when you are a child), but most children of “civilized” parents in the “civilized” world would do so and it is considered “normal”.
There is an obvious difference between a motherly spanking and an abusive beat up! A Latin American mother would spank her child and I don’t see them growing into serial killers later in life or abusing their spouses, children or other people because of that.
I am so glad my mom would spank the sh!t out of me, instead of flattening my character with farma cr@p while making them rich!
RCL
I am a peaceful parent and never spank, but I don’t think it’s my business to dictate that policy to others. If it works, fine. If it doesn’t, it should change. I was spanked a few times growing up and I don’t feel any damage from it. I turned out perfect (ask rrheard!).
These kids (referenced in my comment) were pimped by their (prostitute) biological mother. I can’t believe that won’t have a permanent detrimental effect to some extent.
A truly phenomenal story, Glenn. The video left me with a wide smile on my face and was also really well done. I’ve never even thought about all the hardships a couple, let alone a same sex couple, has to go through just to adopt. It makes me so happy to see these children with such loving parents who want nothing but the best for them.
Best of luck to you and David with your own adoption journey.
Cheers
@ Glenn
This is one of my favorite pieces you have ever written. In a world with so much bad, and hate, and intolerance, it is nice to remember that love, and particularly parents’ (adoptive or biological) love for their children (adopted or biological) is a powerful force for good.
I wish you and David the very best of luck in the adoption process. I have no doubt you will both make excellent loving parents who raise wonderful kids that know the difference between right and wrong, and fight to change the world around them for the better.
Love, attention, patience, stability, consistency with rules, and a commitment to education, setting goals, and teaching/learning to work toward them are the keys–IMHO. I grew up with a disabled parent from the age of 5, but that never stopped my parents from displaying or imparting those values to me and my sister despite the financial and other obstacles they faced in their own lives.
I’ve always said being a parent is the hardest job in the world, but quite possibly the most rewarding. I never had children of my own, but I’ve always thought that if I did I would most definitely adopt and provide a home and love to children the world too easily abandons.
Good luck to both of you!
This is one of my favorite writings from you Glenn. I have followed you since you were at Salon. You have inspired me and have opened my eyes and heart in so many different ways. But this article just fills me with so much hope for the world. You and David are going to be amazing parents! Thank you for sharing this story. I’m so glad these three boys have found a home, and that this couple found their children.
Beautifully written exposition of a difficult subject in need of such exposure. Thank you Glenn.
A wonderful and endearing story, Glenn. Thanks.
As a parent of 17 years, I can offer only this advise to any prospective parents: You only need a great deal of love and patience to be successful. Be prepared to have both as they do go hand-in-hand.
Good people in a world filled with human tragedy.
i have two friends (a white, same-sex couple) who adopted an african-american girl at birth about 11 years ago. around 2 years later they were contacted by the birth mother and asked if they would be willing to adopt another little girl, about to be born. i think they had about a week to decide. it certainly was not in their plan, or their budget, to have a second child, especially while the first was still a toddler. on top of that, the second little girl had some serious medical issues, the full repercussions of which were impossible to predict at that point.
the younger girl underwent a great deal of medical treatments and therapies for the first 5 or so years of her life. with that treatment at the necessary physical and cognitive developmental stages of her life she was able to overcome what otherwise would have been significant linguistic and learning disabilities. there is no indication of those disabilities now. none. and she is a perfectly charming, eloquent, thoughtful girl with a smile as bright as the sun.
to this day, i look at both of those girls and feel such pride and admiration for their mothers. i frequently think that if anyone, anywhere, still had some doubt about the suitability of same-sex couples as parents, they need only look at these two beautiful girls.
One sentence within this thoughtful article stands out to me as
the central source of human possibilities –
for both good and bad –
“Once one frees oneself from expectations and attachments,
all new and more powerful possibilities are discovered.”
While this message is inspirational in this context, it needs the
“attachment” of responsible behavior. The responsibility of
people which is most necessary and seemingly most difficult
for most of humanity is the responsibility to see that
all of humanity is the same family –
no matter how far we appear to be removed from each other –
and to make our actions as beneficial to those people who
appear to be far removed from us because that perception
of distance is the great delusion which prevents us from
moving beyond our savage state of existence.
This is also the key to the quality of the environment.
It seems that the more affluence a person acquires or requires,
the more savagery they accept as a necessary attachment
to their “way of life.”
The family shown in this article is not just admirable, it is
necessary for all of us. Of course, this view of mine is also
an “attachment,” but the greater problem for me is that it
appears to be far removed from a possible “expectation”
I have for the vast majority of humans.
Thank you for this example of what is possible, but
PLEASE keep piercing the bloated pretenses of those who relish
wallowing in hypocrisy and savagery.
Funny, have they ever thought about adopting… I don’t know… a girl? I understand that they were race-blind but were they biased to favor boys?
I know, we are not supposed to even think inside our mind about such things let alone talk about them but, seriously, why did they pick boys and why did they want to adopt at all? Same-sex couples aren’t established for the purpose of procreation or raising of children so, as heart-worming (sic!) this may sound, color me disgusted.
They wanted to adopt “a child.”
There is nothing in this article which leads one to ASSume
that they preferred a particular gender.
You obviously prefer to create bigoted illusions.
That’s the most revolting sentiment you have posted here yet. In the face of a beautiful human story you intrude with bigotry, including none-too-subtle suggestions the adoptive fathers are interested in child molesting. Your interior world must be a vastly ugly place.
Can you not at least confine your bile to comments for the strictly political stories?
By the way, I was long married to a man who, along with the rest of his brothers and sisters, was raped by their biological father — a gender egalitarian, in that he’d rape either. This deeply sick man just died; he was “pro-life” and far right, just like you.
“Can you not at least confine your bile to comments for the strictly political stories?”
-Mona- had that loaded up. huh.
Nothing like picking a fight to drag the board into the weeds or the gutter.
Who does that?
It’s ok. Glenn deleted Arth’s worst. The whole ugly businesss should have stayed in this sub-thread.
They expressed no gender preference, were equally open to adopting boys or girls. It just so happened that the available children they found that were a match were boys.
That you feel “disgust” upon learning that abandoned, parentless children have found two loving, incredibly supportive parents reflects a great deal on your health, none of it good. Seriously, you should work on that.
Naw, color you disgusting.
Glenn’s right. You need help, but I doubt you want it. You seem to enjoy your prejudices and maladjustment.
The question inside my mind is, “Why would you be thinking of these things?”
Hmm?
You are one disgusting son of a bitch who only reinforces it on here each and every day. As Mona said, you have reached a new low, hard as it was to achieve.
What a wonderful story. I have read other reporting about gay adoptive families which is usually superficial. This is the kind of intelligent in depth approach that One expects from Glenn Greenwald. I wish him and David Miranda success and happiness with their own plans to bring children into their family.
What a wonderful story, Glenn. Thanks so much for writing it, and many thanks to Alexandre, Francisco, Gabriel, Pablo and Patrick for being willing to share their lives with all of us.
I can’t wait to hear about your new family member(s) as well. Best of luck to you and David as you embark on this wonderful journey.
What a wonderful story of love triumphing, and an insightful portrayal of the process and challenges.
What a great story. Best wishes to this awesome family – and to the formation of your own, Glenn.
Fascinating and informative story, lovingly told. I hope you and your husband will have similarly positive experiences when you adopt. I always follow your reportages Mr. Greenwald, and am proud of you, your vision and the things for which you stand!
I hope you and David are successful in forming your family soon.
Nice story.
Cute kids!
Absolutely fantastic story. Good luck to all of you.
You are Awesome Glenn Greenwald!<3
my my yoou”re a hell of guuy……. :–)
An article full of affection that makes me want to get up and face the day rather than bury my head in the blankets. Thank you.
Thank you for this beautiful story. It filled my heart with joy and hope. I cannot describe what it means to me, as I picture myself in the same situation some years from now. My boyfriend and I often talk about forming a family in the future, and this story makes me want it even more.