Not much is yet known about Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, the 31-year-old man French police say is responsible for a horrific act of mass murder last night in the southern city of Nice. In the wake of the killings, French President Francois Hollande has denounced the attack as “Islamist terrorism” linked to the militant group the Islamic State. Supporters of ISIS online have echoed these statements, claiming responsibility for the attack as another blow against its enemies in Western Europe.
While the motive for the attack is still under investigation, it is worth examining why the Islamic State is so eager to claim such incidents as its own. On the surface, ramming a truck into a crowd of people gathered to watch Bastille Day fireworks seems like an act of pure nihilism. No military target was hit. Initial reports suggest that the killings may lead to French attacks on ISIS’s already-diminishing territories in Iraq and Syria. And French Muslims, many of whom were reportedly killed in the attack, will likely face security crackdowns and popular backlash from a public angry and fearful in the wake of another incomprehensible act of mass murder.
But the Islamic State’s statements and history show that such an outcome is exactly what it seeks. In the February 2015 issue of its online magazine Dabiq, the group called for acts of violence in the West that would “[eliminate] the grayzone” by sowing division and creating an insoluble conflict in Western societies between Muslims and non-Muslims. Such a conflict would force Muslims living in the West to “either apostatize … or [migrate] to the Islamic State, and thereby escape persecution from the crusader governments and citizens.”
This strategy of using violence to force divisions in society mimics the group’s tactics in Iraq, where it used provocative attacks against the Shiite population to deliberately trigger a sectarian conflict, one that continues to rage to this day.
It may be that the Islamic State had no direct line of communication to Bouhlel. Unlike many other previous attackers, he had not been on the radar of French security services. There is no indication that he had received training or traveled to ISIS territory. Initial reports from those who knew him paint a picture of a depressed and angry man who “spent a lot of his time at a bar down the street where he gambled and drank.” He had a history of petty crime, including an arrest this past May following a road-rage incident.
But in a way, these details don’t matter. ISIS’s model for terrorism relies on the weaponization of individuals such as Bouhlel; the group calls on the young, angry, and purposeless around the world to lash out at those around them in its name. In this way, the power of desperate insurgents is magnified through a combination of social media and propaganda of the deed. An influential text used by the group, titled The Management of Savagery, prescribes terrorist attacks as a means of “inflam[ing] opposition,” to drag ordinary people into conflict whether “willing or unwilling, such that each individual will go to the side which he supports.”
In the West, deadly attacks in Paris, Brussels, Orlando, and elsewhere are bringing the Islamic State’s goal of a divided world closer to fruition.Far-right parties hostile to minorities are growing in popularity in Europe, while in the United States, polls show significant public support for once-unthinkable measures like banning non-citizen Muslims from the country. Like a hurricane in slow motion, every act of violence seems to do incremental damage to the possibility of a tolerant, liberal society.
After yesterday’s attack in Nice, former Republican House Speaker Newt Gingrich piled on by calling for “[testing] every person here who is of a Muslim background” and adding, “If they believe in Sharia, they should be deported.” It was a somewhat ironic statement for Gingrich, who in years past helped arrange space for Muslim staffers to pray on Capitol Hill and took part in planning sessions for the Islamic Free Market Institute, a free-market advocacy group that supports Sharia-finance products.
Gingrich’s outburst, however impracticable, does reflect hardening public sentiments. As time goes on and attacks by lone wolves and others in the name of ISIS continue, it’s not unfathomable that proposals such as his could gain traction.
But from both a strategic and moral perspective, the worst thing that could be done in response to the horror of incidents like Nice would be to give ISIS what it says it wants: polarization and communal hatred. Proposals for ethnic cleansing or “civilizational war” may satisfy a desire to project toughness, but in reality, they feed into the group’s narrative of a world irrevocably divided along religious lines.
Western Europe has faced down greater waves of terrorism in the past without giving into the strategy of the terrorists or sacrificing its intrinsic values. The crisis of the Islamic State will require a similar degree of steadfastness. But only by recognizing the trap it has set can we avoid inflicting a defeat on ourselves far worse than a desperate, fanatical insurgent group could ever hope to achieve on its own.
Again, understanding those folks is not that difficult. I don’t think al-Adnani’s statement is that different from Patrick Henry’s “Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death” and if you read newspapers from that time (which you can do) you will see how Imperial Britain talked about “those subhuman, bastardly. idiotic lowlifes who don’t understand neither ‘democracy’, nor ‘freedom’ and don’t give a sh!t about ‘The’ Queen (what kind of people would not care about -our- Queen?!?)” …
I would tone down a bit the ethological connotations of Isaiah Berlin’s metaphor with one from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: “You only have power over people as long as you don’t take everything away from them. But when you’ve robbed a man of everything, he’s no longer in your power–he’s free again.”
To those people “death” or “life” doesn’t matter much because they have been freedom-lovingly deprived of their own being anyway. That Western “white man burden” b#llsh!t ideology about turning everyone into a “freedom-loving”, “smart shopper”, “glued to the tube” gringo (which, of course, you can only implement by force) I find preposterous. Who the eff are “we” to believe we have been ourselves invested with the “divinely chosen” “responsibility” to “spread democracy”?
Comparing how British people thought of themselves during Imperial times (and apparently still do) and how gringos think of themselves as they themselves explicitly “fitted it to print” may become an interesting corpora research, consciousness study. If you read any U.S. newspaper with an attentive eye and a conscious brain you will notice that all they write about in blunt, not-to-subtle and subtle ways is: “look how stupid everybody in the world is, how they are not like us …”
RCL
true. Genetics turned out to be way less “mechanical” than anyone guessed (in scientists’ view the DNA of the corn plant is immensely more “complex” than the human genome) and epigenetics seems to be even more complex, but a few things are very clear, among them:
1) genes are just part of the story (it seems not even the most important one)
2) the crucial importance of the first 3 months during gestation
3) the undeniable overgenerational effects in which our health is influenced
Those are the issues with which I totally disagree with the common view of epigenetics. “Geniosuses” are not exactly born or made, they tend to make themselves be to a large extent.
Well, had you watched that documentary ;-), you may have noticed that they showed an example of the closest you can get to that experiment you mention, with a pretty much closed community of Swedish people living within arctic latitudes and enduring periods of famine.
To my understanding, so-called “mind control” is an even more illusive and immensely huge can of worms and they have never stopped “trying to get it right”. Again, I would not find surprising at all that our rulers have started to do epigenetic “research” on us to turn us into more of TV watching, morally disengaged zombies.
RCL
“Defeat is the loss of will and desire to fight.” This quote from ISIS spokesman Abu Mohammed al-Adnani really caught my attention. It states in stark terms that the Western powers have met an implacable adversary who thinks and is prosecuting a jihad outside the either/or thinking with which our hapless and naive leaders view this conflict. They just don’t get it. Not do they get what we must confront and what they are up against. This is an idea whose time has come. There has been a tectonic shift in the world which only occurs one or twice in a century. We are going though this shift in consciousness. The first rule in war is to know your enemy. Yet as we enter the second decade in the what has been called the global war on terror, we continue to prosecute the war based upon faulty premises and a strategy that is self-defeating. And it reminds me of what the United States did during the Vietnam War. And our enemy back then was the spread of communist ideology in Vietnam which was personified by VC guerrillas ans NVA soldiers. We have already repeated the terrible mistakes we made back then as we enter the second decade of the global war on terror. We are beyond the point of no return having already been sucked into the vortex first by al Qaeda and now by ISIS. Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the many and various drone wars, intervention in the Libyan civil war are historical facts however one may wish to view them. It is a Sisyphean task to defeat ISIS. We can decimate it. But we already tried that strategy with war against al Qaeda. That gave us ISIS. And another jihadist movement will rear its ugly head from ISIS. Jihad against the Western powers is an big and quite powerful idea whose time has come just as wars of national liberation were against Western imperialism that surfaced in Indochina during the Cold War. Both France and the United States were defeated there. They were on the wrong side of history during a tectonic shift in consciousness almost half a century ago. We can remain in denial at our own peril. But denial is more than a river in Egypt. As Sir Isaiah Berlin observed: “Freedom for the wolves has often meant death to the sheep.” He noted there was a plurality of values in any democracy. They are in constant competition with each other tipping the scales to one side or the other. That is our predicament. I wish I could offer a solution. But I can’t unless perhaps we adopt what George Kennan proposed during the Cold War, his containment theory of communism, during the Cold War. Of course, the question is: Can we also continue to preserved our civil liberties in our democracies? I really don’t know the answer to that question. But Isaiah Berlin’s observation is one that I have thought a great deal about in the last several weeks. I wish I could be more optimistic. But the situation is rather grim. There’s going to be some kind of backlash whether we like or not. The sheep have had it. They want payback against the wolves.
Murtaza, ISIS were ARMED AND ENCOURAGED BY THE UNITED STATES to attack Syria and create turmoil in the wider region as a follow-on to the Iraq War. Their targets are NEVER strategic; instead, they attack soft targets in the general population that – to me it seems – do far more towards turning parts of the population that would otherwise be neutral or anti-war towards aggressive actions. ISIS do not represent some mysterious concept of “Radical Islam”, they represent Saudi Arabian and US imperial ambitions in the Middle East.
They are not some separatist anti-government organisation – they REPRESENT two of the most wealthy and powerful governments in the world.
France is an easy target for them because France has a history of atrocities against local Muslim nations in north Africa, so it is easier for ISIS to recruit crazy fanatics to perform these acts of “terror”. But compared to the IRA they are disorganised within the wider community, lacking a clear concept of “homeland”, lacking a clear message or goal, lacking popular support, lacking some form of political representation and public face, and completely lacking in targeting strategic individuals or locations for attack – such police stations, army barracks, politicians, patrols, or hated groups such as Jews.
Their stated aim is wishy-washy bullshit – their actions are not typical of those trying to found a Kurdish homeland, or further Irish Republicanism, or further Maoism, or create a Basque homeland.
ISIS is bullshit initiated by the US and Saudi Arabia with no real agenda of its own; please, all of you at The Intercept, start treating it as such.
This article paints a very different picture of the killer.
Of course, most killers suffer from the same kind of pathology.
I was wondering where we are now with that one called Salah Abdeslam. It is time we got some stuff out of him regarding ISIS networks in Europe. If the French don’t know how to extract that information they can send them to us before it gets stale and worthless.
Jeffrey Goldberg points out something I wasn’t aware of:
“Sharia Does Not Mean What Newt Gingrich Thinks It Means —
One country that officially endorses the Muslim legal system is one of the politician’s favorites—Israel.”, at http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/07/gingrich-nice-sharia/491471/
The problem with all laws is that they are as good as the judges and the prosecutors. Sharia fares pretty badly in this regard.
Goldberg writes:
Only the worst , colonial, racist parts of it. Israel is an apartheid state founded as a settler, ethno-religious supremacist state.
Yossi Gurvitz has explained why Israel permits sharia courts:
Amusingly, Goldberg omits all discussion of this, and simply announces that rabbinical courts — as well as sharia ones — exist for “complicated” reasons. It’s part of maintaining ethno-religious supremacy.
Thanks Mona, I wasn’t aware of it.
“Far-right parties hostile to minorities are growing in popularity in Europe, while in the United States, polls show significant public support for once-unthinkable measures like banning non-citizen Muslims from the country. Like a hurricane in slow motion, every act of violence seems to do incremental damage to the possibility of a tolerant, liberal society.”
In my opinion, Islam has been used as an excuse for why we’re attacked and why we pursue regime change to intentionally empower the most socially regressive in the west (check out that new GOP platform) and in the Middle East.
Conservatives in the Middle East that didn’t like that the west was influencing their children even before the Iraq invasion and conservatives in the west who have a similar dislike for outside influences are open to being convinced that that they’re being punished or threatened for turning away from their god and/or allowing the threat of tolerance for diversity run through their country. (omg they have more kids than we do. Stop gay marriage! Make abortion illegal or white society will be gone)
It also takes the attention away from any critique about why the west is really getting involved.
When religion is on both sides of the political/military table, reason is off. Daesh and the Far Right Christian Extremist GOP and elsewhere in the west are eating at the same table.
That is the documentary about epigenetics I meant:
// __ BBC.The Ghost In Your Genes 2006XviD
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1f27b5_bbc-the-ghost-in-your-genes-2006xvid_tech
~
You may want to download it using youtube-dl or one of those browser plug ins. This is one of those documents you will definitely read, watch more than once.
Scientists tend to be a bit politically bent in order to aggrandize their own projects and get funding. I don’t totally agree with some of the statements and assumptions made in that documentary, especially when it comes to our minds.
Again, something “interesting” is that when they talk about the lasting, over-generational effect of trauma; they don’t use as example Muslim people. It seems only human, sentient beings can suffer and experience such things as emotions and have feelings.
People should know well about that kind of sh!t. They will be more conscious, respectful of their own health.
As documented in those “Patriot Acts”, part of the NSA, USG purview is our medical records and they have been collecting our genes and experimenting with us on a social scale.
One of the aims of persecution and ultimately Zersetzung is to not only “un-radicalize”, “norm” you but it has been scientifically proven that biologically taxing and noising you they epigenetically condition you to get sick and have an early “natural” death. Pay especial attention to the experiment with methylated rats.
Even if tried-and-true, “bread and circuses” TV and media b#llsh!t do very well for them, in the same way they “self evidently” give themselves the right to “freedom-lovingly” exterminate half a million children in Iraq (effectively wiping a generation of people). I don’t find far fetched at all that they would go: “Oh, well! We will methylate generations of people to subdue them and make them better subjects” (they would see that as a more “humane” option …)
As Snowden pointed out “We the people” have been degraded by politicians to “tag animals”. I don’t understand that in a poetic way at all.
truth and peace and love,
RCL
I didn’t watch that, but I doubt they have it right. The thing about epigenetics is that there is no a priori way to know what effect a stimulus has long term. It’s possible that exposure to a chemical does absolutely nothing now, but your kids are more likely to be autistic – or microcephalic – or geniuses. There’s no telling, short of some near-guesswork conclusions drawn from complex experiments, or of course, keeping real kids under controlled conditions for a generation or two until you get answers. This is why epigenetics is really a huge, huge can of worms that regulators by and large have not even had the courage to look into.
Well, well, apparently Ben Shapiro has learned that his rants about Israel critics being “antisemites” ill-prepared him for the real thing. Well, he hasn’t learned it, but is quite horrified now that he’s encountering a good deal of actual Jew hatred.
David Harris Gershon covers that and related matters: Anti-Semitic Trump supporters paid this Jew boy a visit …
Ms Mona,
This Gershon fellow is on retainer with the Crooked Campaign. In this connection, you may also think of invoicing Crooked for your 24×7 effort here.
General, you are among the nest of bigoted ignoramuses infesting this site. Gershon is so many levels of intelligent beyond you I don’t care what non sequiturs you spew about him.
“General, you are among the nest of bigoted ignoramuses infesting this site.”
Well Mona, I don’t quite infest it like the way you do, but thanks for the offer of your company.
As with nuf said, your insults are mere noise that cannot affect me; no one whose opinion matters to me would regard me as “infesting” this site. But virtually everyone whose assessment of me could cause me any distress — smart, well-informed, morally decent people — sure tend to think you do.
Do you have a list of such illustrious people, Mona, that you may have perhaps invited into your hive?
I behave so sweetly with you and yet you call it insults. Maybe you need some coaching from our dear Sufi Muslim here on some esoteric gymnastics that will help you to rise above your horrible self and attain higher dimensions of sufiesque sensibilities. Alas!
We need to kill the killers and their supporters. No need to harm innocent Muslims. So let’s get it done.
You need to do nothing. Relax and smoke a joint, and if you are still agitated go and speak to a law enforcement officer. He should be able to find help for you.
Twitter:
The Associated PressVerified account
?@AP
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan demands the US extradite the Muslim cleric he blames for attempted coup.
Ha! Twitter:
Col. Morris Davis ?@ColMorrisDavis 11m11 minutes ago
If Fethullah Gulen is considered a threat to Erdogan & Turkey’s gov’t doesn’t Turkey have a right to drone strike him in Pennsylvania? @CNN
Sheesh, Col. Morris! Don’t Give Erdogan ideas!
For the past few years, Erdogan has blamed anything and everything on Gulen, fellow theocrat, former ally and the guy blamed for corruption charges against Erdogan’s son.
The military, overall, would be very unlikely to ally itself with Gulen and, if the coup-attempt faction did, they are a very odd bunch of Turkish armed forces members.
But, we’ll see.
The Nice murderer frequently “stank of alcohol” even during Ramadan, according to a neighbor. His father says:
He had a record of petty crime, including a road rage incident. But officials in France say he was “quickly radicalized,” whatever that means, and even tho no Western intelligence agency had him on any radar.
But he was from a Muslim family, and “those people” cannot be merely mentally ill and violently criminal.
Or, if they are, it’s Islam’s fault.
The other thing is, France has a long colonial history of treating Muslims, especially those from Algeria, the way the U.S. has historically treated blacks. Arabs live in their ghettos and have limited opportunities. As a result, their young often turn to lives of crime.
ISIS is going to find fertile ground among such a population.
Yup.
Interestingly, in Nice, the 40,000 local Muslims are, unlike most French cities, not concentrated in suburban ghettos.
Also interesting is the fact that a fairly large percentage of the rest of the Nice population consists of Pieds-noirs (Europeans who had lived in Algeria for centuries and fled after France “lost” that nation) and their descendants.
And Nice is probably the most right-wing place in France.
In the past no matter what the ethnicity or religion, people were loyal to the people they lived with or the country they lived in or adopted. Italians a few years in America joined in droves to fight Japan and the Nazi’s and were some of the most decorated fighters during the war. If moderate Muslims (a term rejected by the PM of Turkey and number of scholars) truly exist in numbers they must reject this offshoot of Islam and not only condemn this they must pick up arms and fight, that will be the only way to stem the tide.
“But from both a strategic and moral perspective, the worst thing that could be done in response to the horror of incidents like Nice would be to give ISIS what it says it wants: polarization and communal hatred. ”
which also happens to be what the Far Right Christian Extremist GOP wants and that is popular support for an unhinged war in the Middle East and in the west advertised as being about Islam but also any person or group that is against their efforts.
And Hillary Clinton. Neoliberals in general.
You must have skipped this bit.
When someone spends a little time they are able to pile up half a dozen falsehoods made by you.
All you were able to do was dismiss the list as “too long” and “not worth your time”.
At least you acknowledge any attempt at refutation would be fruitless.
WTF is the matter with you? This sub-thread has nothing to do with your obsession with me for calling out your antisemitism, such strong Jew-hatred that one of our Jewish regulars (an anti-Zionist) would not reply to you for some time.
Any regular reader who thinks you’ve said anything true or significant about me can ask me for an explanation, otherwise I’m ignoring this endless crap.
“such strong Jew-hatred that one of our Jewish regulars (an anti-Zionist) [who is voting for HRC] would not reply to you for some time. ”
Appealing to authority is not beneath you. it’s expected, actually.
Perhaps you should select an authority figure with a soul.
(and I don’t hate you mona, it’s the stupid things you say that I don’t like.
I can separate the message from the messenger but that skill seems to have eluded you)
Anyone who gives a shit about this crap can read this sub-thread.
Yes, I hate what Israel is doing to Palestine. That 40% of the world’s Jews are persecuting Palestinians and less than 1% of the Muslim world is attacking the West, I guess I must be a Jew-hater be default definition. I didn’t write the dictionary …
Apparently Mona is having difficulty responding substantively, again.
She still has not replied to the charge she slammed the new commenter Jessica for not acquiescing to Mona’s dictate. Mona called the new commenter “Immoral, disgusting” for not acknowledging the virulent racism obviously sweeping the UK …
That is just one of the instances on Mona being a disingenuous commenter.
let’s assume that half of the world’s remaining Jews support Palestine, say 4 million, while the other 4 million Jews support Israel. That would mean that more than 70% of the Jewish population is oppressing and killing Palestine.
70% is a conservative number because I sincerely doubt there are 4 million world Jews supporting Palestine. So 80%, 85%, 90%; what is the staggering percentage of Jews persecuting Palestinians vs the number of Muslim extremists?
You’re saying that Hillary wants the many regime changes in the Middle East to be advertised as being about Islam and any person or group that is against that effort?
I’d appreciate a link because that would be disturbing if it were true.
The GOP wants to put a Christian flag on the public domain in the U.S.
I haven’t read Hillary call for for deporting Muslims, having a Sharia test for Muslims, saying Islam is the greater enemy of the U.S, wanting the bible to be taught in public schools or call for repeal of ban on political organizing by churches etc. The list has got very long over the years
Hillary absolutely wants what the ” Far Right Christian Extremist GOP wants” to wit: “popular support for an unhinged war in the Middle East .”
Only “war” should likely be plural; Hillary is obscenely hawkish. She won’t speak in unsophisticatedly bigoted terms. But she will kill a whole fuck ton of brown men, women and children. I’m sure they and their families will adore that she was more polite about it.
Are you really saying that targeting a religion for war is only a matter of being impolite? And that using Islamophobia to Christianize America into the Middle Ages as GOP/Trump most certainly want to do is something we should overlook simply because Hillary is running for president?
Excuse me: I did not see this first comment posted and so wrote a second one.
A good re-statement of this point. What is needed even more is specific guidance for managing one’s emotional responses and for channeling this emotional energy into unifying, constructive, social action.
Perhaps a countervailing strategy is a good one: do the opposite of what ISIS wants. They want to divide us; we should try something to unify us. For example, when a Muslim terrorist perpetrates a horrific attack, meet and talk with (not to) a Muslim in the community. I have done so on occasion and find it informative and re-assuring.
NPR calls what happened in Turkey last night a “wild night.” 265 people are dead. NPR’s idea of a wild night is not exactly Emily Dickinson’s unless it happens far far away.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/15/486211652/turkey-military-says-it-has-taken-over-control-of-the-country
For a contrast, let’s try to imagine NPR calling Orlando or Nice a “wild night.” I didn’t say it would be easy.
Want to know the most recent time NPR used the phrase “wild night”? Spoiler warning: considerably less wild content than Emily Dickinson –
http://www.npr.org/2016/04/09/473407380/graham-nashs-wild-night-out-with-the-everly-brothers
What do we see here in NPR vocabulary choices? Or with our local supposedly beyond-the-mainstream-media Doug saying, hmm, yeah, a military coup could be good for Turkey?
I mean as long as you won’t be there or anything, Doug, I suppose it will all be cool with you. To make an omelette, gotta break a few eggs, etc. They are all foreigners anyway, so I guess their deaths are fuel for entertainment and idle speculation for you and the good people at NPR.
A very thoughtful response in yet another highly emotive moment. Polarization seems to be the objective of both sides. You’re right.
polarization is not the objective of the western elites, but continued dominance.
nor is polarization the objective of dasq, but the subscription of the world to their crazy version of islam.
but polarization works for dasq, and works against the western elites even as the western elites keep advancing it. holland and trump/clinton/obama seem to be having a contest to see who can advance dasq the best.
kind of like a fable for children about the foolish nobles and the clever peasants, all devoid of character.
Terrorists and anti-terrorists are natural allies. Surely it is not a coincidence that the promised end of a “state of emergency” allowing arbitrary searches and detentions was the occasion for this attack. Now I’m hearing talk of an indefinite state of emergency, i.e. the final and official end of the Fifth Republic. So this terrorist has earned a wreath-draped monument of honor in the history books as the man who took down France once and for all, or at least, that’s what I’d say if I had ever believed they’d end their state of emergency anyway (no matter that it didn’t work, which was also to be expected!), but as I already said their republic was over six months ago I cannot actually get away with issuing a new death certificate today.
The manner of the attack confirms what I’ve said before: it is a blessing that the terrorists go for guns, because there are many other things they could do to kill us in greater numbers, though with less precision. This truck attack has shown the world that mass casualties can be generated by anyone who can figure out how to drive a semi rig and find one to steal. The deliverymen aren’t going to stop going out tomorrow, no matter what the terror alert level may be. But there is so much more that they can do with this kind of attack – they can take vehicles preloaded with gasoline or hazardous chemicals, and even more importantly, they can target the company they steal the vehicles from. At least in the U.S., the liability for a company that fails to prevent its vehicle from being stolen and driven into a crowd, at least if the contents are hazardous, is likely to be devastating. So the terrorists can target a company financially unless, say, it charges higher rates to ship to the Government of Israel (which has actually had its own “door” at freight terminals), or unless it offers discounts to a group they are supposed to not know is linked to jihadists, etc.
The answer to terrorism has to be to be a free country. You can’t make it so that people feel like they’re Tunisians and always will be Tunisians while they live in your country. Either you never let them in, which is smart, or you say that once they’re in they can do what they want believe what they want just don’t commit a crime like everybody else. One country, one people, reserving unwarranted suspicion for the border looking out.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/15/why-does-france-keep-getting-attacked
Yeah! They are definitely barking up the wrong tree. It is actually gringos and brits the ones genocidally devastating and messing with Muslim countries and people for the “freedom-loving” fun of it! They even arrogantly, carelessly and publicly admit to it.
// __ Madeleine Albright – The deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children was worth it for Iraq’s non existent WMD’s
youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8
~
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/06/chilcot-report-crushing-verdict-tony-blair-iraq-war
~
Currently France and Germany have been countries trying to play their cards in a nice(r) way when it comes to killing and messing with Muslim people.
truth and peace and love,
RCL
Yes we should fight them with love and complacency, that’s been effective so far…
No news from Planet Earth for the past couple of decades, in whatever corner of the galaxy you’ve been visiting?
At the risk of being crassly misunderstood. Could you give me just one instance of Muslim people being described as suffering when their loved ones are freedom-lovingly killed and maimed? Could you even imagine Western media doing such thing? I think Murtaza has been the only journalist who has ever raised those issues, but I am talking about mainstream Western media.
Children in Muslim countries live in constant fear of being killed, are even afraid to play outside. Once a Muslim girl whose family had been pulverized by drones came the Washington trying to have an audience in congress (with nightmarish drawings of drones by children in Muslim countries) and no U.S. politicians paid any attention to her whatsoever. (does anyone remember that article?)
Abdulrahman al-Awlaki wikipedia page is a cursory three short paragraphs long. He didn’t have a father when he was killed …, but the little airing his mother’s and grandparents’ opinion got was not really to describe “feelings”, but question the legality of his and his father’s killing, about, which Obama was, very expectedly, lying.
It has been scientifically studied the biological, genetic influence that could be carried over generations from living in fear and anxiety. Try to watch “Ghost in your genes”. Even famine experience by your grandparents may influence your physical and psychological health for life.
// __ Epigenetics and the influence of our genes | Courtney Griffins | TEDxOU
https://vimeo.com/121428961
~
They constantly describe Muslims as if they weren’t really a people with their crazies, from which every kind of people (including us) have a good share. I am not Muslim and I am angry at how we Westerners see them as part of our self-serving “white man burden” b#llsh!t.
Again, as many of us have pointed out one way or the other. When you mess with a people as we have been for so long with them, their crazies will do crazy things against us. I think their share in metastasizing violence and terrorism is secondary. The Israeli government has managed to turn the whole word into Tel Aviv. I hear they make money, among many other things, training police departments all over the world …
So, their guy doesn’t seem to be “connected” or even religious
What did the guy have to do with Iraq or Syria?
Haven’t Iraqi and Syrian people been through enough freedom loving already?
“De-radicalisation centres”? “De-radicalisation certifications”? I had heard already about those “shared responsibility” things
I could see the French APA making good money out of this
RCL
I regard this kind of commentary as ISIS Baddies version 2.0. Imperialist interventions created Islamic terrorism. That is what we need to focus on, relentlessly.
I repeat: Has anyone seen any evidence that the attacker in Nice was involved with ISIS or any other group commonly referred to in the West as involved in “Islamic terrorism?”
Has anyone seen any indication that the guy ever opened a Quaran? Attended a mosque? Read Inspire online?
I’d just like some evidence, so we know whether we’re on the right subject.
If you’re right and we’re dealing here with a troubled individual rather than a political act then this type of discussion is not only off the mark but completely irrelevant.
No, the discussion could not be more relevant if, as it appears, the truck driver was an irreligious, womanizing drunk. As Hussain writes: “the Islamic State is so eager to claim such incidents as its own.” And many Westerners are eager to up the hysteria about “Islamist terrorism” the minute a guy with a “Muslim”-sounding name commits a dreadful murder.
This dynamic — and how the two opposing forces reinforce each other’s agendas – – is well worth examining.
Mona is right on target.
I would only add that the Westerners who are eager to fan the flames include politicians and occupants of high office of various stripes — e.g., in this case, numerous French officials up to and including President Hollande.
And my point is that nonsense about “giving ISIS what they want” is also feeding those flames. Let’s address the root cause of this problem, not the effects.
excellent article, perspective and advice, Murtaza.
I hope that many will listen and share your concerns,
and move to affect others to embrace tolerance,
understanding, education and peace.
thank you
Does the ISIS trap include our neoliberal masters?
The distortions of the original Islam, as generally understood by the traditional Muslims*, have been going on throughout Islam’s history.
Two of the primary ways that these distortions have been carried out are: a) Distorting many of the key terms used in the Quran; and b) Usage of Islam for political gains and power (I call it the politicization of Islam).
These distortions are still being carried out.
As an example, take the term, “Allahu Akbar”.
It has a deep spiritual meaning, which I recently posted.
But look at the way it’s been distorted by a few Muslims, whose dramatic acts make the news, while those who use it in a deep spiritual sense do not make the daily news.
There are many other terms: Jihad, Shariah, Islam are three of the big ones.
I am one person, trying desperately to point out how Islam has been hijacked by fringe elements, and trying to take back the spiritual Islam.
Bu it’s a losing battle, like trying to swim up the Niagara Falls.
——–
* Traditional Muslims, both exoteric and esoteric, not just exoteric. See Seyyed Hossein Nasr’s description of tradition, and that of those who adhere to the Perennial Wisdom/Philosophy (Martin Lings, Frithjof Schuon, Rene Genon)
Mr Sufi,
Religion was never meant to hold your hand and take you to the Almighty, as if without the help of all the mullahs and popes your future existence will be doomed. The mullahs and popes couldn’t care two hoots where your soul went after you have served their purpose and pulled the cord.
The primary aim of religion is to control you, and also get you in turn to control yourself and your family and friends. Those who dispense religion do so only to enrich themselves.
You are a good man, but you are too naive.
You appear to not understand Sufism, which is a profoundly mystic spirituality aimed at realized union with Divinity, not a spirit-crushing orthodoxy which seeks control. The primary aim of orthodox religion may be generally just as you say, but there are millions practising religions all over the world who use the tenets, meditations and moral maxims therein positively for better communities.
Oh, and I am convinced Sufi Muslim is a woman. So you probably shouldn’t call her “Mr.”
Well said, sometimes I worry for the Sufies. They may be declared apostates by the wahabies and salafies, and then it’s not very comfortable around the neck.
Your history here is one of ignorance and bigotry, and you are not even aware that this regular commenter, Sufi Muslim, is a woman. She’s established that multiple times.
@Mona to General Hercules (with additional commentary):
Not everyone who says something you dislike deserves a caustic embrace.
Yes, we know your Catholic training is hard to break. It’s evidenced routinely in your judgement packed full of invective.
You are an antisemitic fool who regularly makes errors of fact and logic, angry with me for calling it out. I’ll be substantively ignoring your latest red herring ploy of ranting about Catholicism vis-a-vis me.
“You are an antisemitic fool who regularly makes errors of fact and logic, angry with me for calling it out.”
Tell us again how brave the cartoonists at Charlie were …
It’s actually a morbid form of entertainment. (it’s in the 50s and cloudy) I lol at some of your drivel.
Your “calling me out” amounts to calling me an antisemite despite the fact that I routinely state, “There are many, modern, decent, Jews. ”
If only you would follow through with your multitude of promises to not respond to me but I understand, it’s gonna take awhile to pack all of your baggage …
Yet another thing I have never said. Gator did, but changed his mind for the entertainment value. (Telling me why he resumed replying to you: “I’ll talk to anybody, even Jew-haters.”) I had only said I would mostly ignore you. And in most threads I do just that.
You are an antisemite, and it’s quite amusing you think you can redeem that with: “There are many, modern, decent, Jews. ” That’s so…big of you. [eyes rolling]
That’s almost as indicative of our lack of self-awareness as when you wrote to me: “You practice hasbara without a license, meaning you provide cover for Jews if something said seems too mean.”
Yes, to an antisemite, my objecting to his commentary would constitute “providing cover for Jews.”
“Yet another thing I have never said. ”
I literally cannot count the number of times you said you were done with me. It is a reflexive response for you to say “no I didn’t”, like a school-yard bully.
You equate blame of Muslims for ISIS to blame of Jews for Israel.
That is a demonstrably false equivalency. ISIS represents a tiny fraction of Islam yet Israel represents a significant percentage (roughly 6 out of ~14 million or more than 40%) of Judaism.
In Israel alone resides 40% of the worlds Jews and look what 40% of a people/religion do to millions of Palestinians everyday.
Tell me again the equivalency between relative numbers of ISIS and the IDF …
LOLOLOLOL
You poor, fragile snowflake. You repeatedly claim I said things I did not say, and when I reply “No I didn’t” I’m a “bully.”
I think this Internet thing is bad for you. I mean, there really is no “safe space” here where people are not going to deny false accusations.
Maybe grab a cup of cocoa and a book of daily affirmations?
daily affirmations? Nothing fails like prayer …
NO ONE has more outright denials under her belt than -Mona-.
Even when people post your comment and directly critique it, you will say, “no I didn’t”
Macroman did not ‘walk back’ his comment of your attack on Jessica.
I have not walked back my comment of your attack on the same person.
And neither have I repudiated my “attack” on Jessica. You don’t seem to comprehend that I’m not “defending” myself from that “charge” because I stand by what I said and DO NOT CARE what you think about it.
But the primary thing you fail to grasp is that there is nothing you can say to or about me that could be believed or endorsed by anyone whose opinion matters to me. Intelligent, reasonable people with a decent set of morals are not going to accept your inanities.
This is the Internet: it is heavily populated by ignoramuses and bigots. Never have I suffered such people gladly, and that includes you and a number of others who show up here. Anyone who thinks these fools have the right of it are, by definition, no one whose assessment of me matters in the least.
Deal with it, or don’t. But for the benefit of all, do stop interposing this crap into every sub-thread in which I participate. If you like, link to the sub-thread where we first get into it, but for fuck’s sake don’t spam much of the whole board.
“But it’s a losing battle, like trying to swim up the Niagara Falls.”
Yeah, maybe, but some of us are hardwired to try.
For you, Sufi, Mitch Leigh and Joe Darien wrote “The Impossible Dream (The Quest)” for “Man of La Mancha,” in 1972.
Richard Kiley: “The Impossible Dream” (Original Cast)
From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, these:
:^)
Sufis for Sufi.
= = = = =
“I want to sing like the birds sing, not worrying about who hears or what they think.”
~Rumi
You and Coram sure put my frown upside down.
Many thanks for that.
Omar Khayyam seems to believe in three things that even secularists could be disciples to: human mortality, the virtues of wine, and skeptical theology. We could use that. A pity his religion didn’t spread: a country in the grip of it might, at most, challenge your country to a wine-tasting contest, but that’s it.
There are as many ways to the truth as there are hearts.
Non-religious people are also capable of connecting their lower consciousness with the higher.
Wine has been used in Sufi poetry as a metaphor for a few things, including Divine intoxication, referring to an inner spiritual experience that is not describable.
But I see your point.
Thanks,
“Provide me your inspiration
So that I might see mine.”
Rumi- The Mathnawi, Book 1
If I can’t even convince a Muslim writer here at TI to at least use short footnotes below his articles in which he’s used certain terms to point out how the traditional Muslims see them, how am I supposed to convince Newt, Trump and Ted Cruz?
Oh, you probably won’t convince the stubbornly clueless, although you might have a chance with Maz Hussain.
But, remember what Rumi wrote, just above.
And:
The pattern of historical connectives is that the way a thing begins is the way it ends. Islam began with raiding and kidnapping and child brides and the killing of poets, and that is how it will end. But Sufiism began free of Islam and there is no reason why it cannot be free of Islam again. And however satisfying it may be to see some Christian protesters barbecue a Koran, it is no substitute for seeing Muslims throw away their Korans and seek out other religions that have something to teach. I want to hope that all this madness will lead to a world that recognizes Muhammad for what he was – a thug worse than any modern inhabitant of America’s Death Row.
Despite all that, I will admit to a superstition that yelling “Allahu akbar” improves the odds of success when doing something really lunatic in a first person shooter, like rushing out into a courtyard full of monsters instead of fighting them one by one like you’re supposed to. My best explanation so far is if you’re doing something really stupid you should pray to a really stupid god. :)
I appreciate you sharing your views.
I disagree.
I still haven’t seen any evidence even suggesting that Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel had any links with IS, al Qaeda, al Nusra, or any other extremist groups of the sort everyone seems to be assuming were involved.
On the contrary, every report I’ve seen, so far, has indicated that he was just a violent, petty criminal with no apparent interest in religion, who was especially upset at the breakup of his marriage.
For instance, from the Torygraph:
So, why are we talking about “Islamic terrorism” and ISIS?
Does someone know something I don’t? Citations?
Maybe Nèwtrahn knows something I don’t:
Finally, it looks like you have a valid point. This fellow is a Muslim but that doesn’t say anything, just like it did not matter what religion Anders Behring Breivik practiced. I think neither of them was religious in any way to kill so many innocent people in one go.
One thing I am curious about to know is if this Mohammad fellow shouted Alahu Akbars while doing his suicide-driving. I didn’t hear anything in the videos. This should settle his religious leanings if indeed he had any.
ISIS has another problem – coup in Turkey. Wonder which way this war will proceed now, but today is definitely a defining moment.
“ISIS has another problem – coup in Turkey”
Are you sure this really is a problem? Sounds more like an opportunity to enlist some Turkish divisions who are unhappy with the government there.
No. You can be quite sure that Turkish divisions will not be enlisted to support ISIS (especially with Erdogan gone). It is much more likely that they would attack ISIS, but we will have to wait and see how things turn out.
It appears that at least some of the victims of the attack were Muslims.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/15/some-parents-are-so-shocked-they-cant-speak-nice-childrens-hospital-treating-victims
So it does make simplifications difficult, a point lost on the former Speaker.
One of a very large number of points lost on the former Speaker.
Thanksgiving has come a bit too early for some Turkeys.
“Thanksgiving has come a bit too early for some Turkeys.”
But to the Delight of others …
An attack on a military post or base or troops isn’t terrorism,at least to fair minded people who realize war is war.
This was obvious terrorism,and one wonders if it might be the time for US and our allies to face up to the fact that you can’t support terror in some places(Iraq,Syria Libya) and oppose it at home or selected states of value to USzion.
Hopefully these attacks will help propel Trump into the POTUS,and then most definitely we won’t support terrorists anywhere.
There are more than a billion Muslims in the world and ISIS clowns represent a tiny percentage. By contrast, Israel represents a significant proportion of Jews and Israel slaughters women/children at an alarming rate with nary a word of criticism from Jews.
Why does -Mona- equate the criticism of her defense of Israel with antisemitism?
other than it is the cheap and easy way out of walking around with you ass in your hat.
@-Mona- “You are an antisemite — the real kind,”
The definition of “real” means it need only be 51% antisemitic to be a Real antisemite.
Perhaps -Mona- is not making the point she believes. From recent comments, that would be consistent.
It is simply unhinged to describe anything I write as a “defense of Israel.” You are an antisemite for the same reasons the anti-Zionist Jew, Gator, considers you one: You post Jew-hatred.
The zions of the likud party in israel figured that Obama was their man for a war against Iran. Obama said “NO” to the nutjob in charge of israel, nuttinyahu. So now, they figure Hillary is their man for a war against Iran. This would not be for the security of israel. It would be for wallstreet thieves who need to eliminate the competition in the currency scheme business as Iran, North Korea, and Venezuela have better currency systems. Wallstreet needs a war to fuel their fraud because real growth is dead (it’s a scam anyway) and all they have is valuation fraud – notice the DJIA since the day before the Brexit vote. All pricing fraud to give wealth holdings not just an interest payday, but a selloff jumpoff place as well.
And hillary is wallstreet’s favorite garden hoe.
“Hillary is their man”
So, that explains the pant-suits. ;)
Where does anyone and everyone fit in the world? In th military, they use the billet system, you have a place. In the civilian world, if you inherit from your family, you have a place. Otherwise in a competitive environment of corporations headed by greedy unpatriotic disloyal scheming sociopaths, WHAT DOES THAT YIELD?
“let’s do foul things and then tell the people we’re marginally related to that the christians will never accept them because hatred of us is in their blood. then they’ll flock to our homeland where we’ll kill and dispossess thousands to take their land.”
but enough about israel…aren’t those isis types horrible?
Hillary Clinton is a racist and a promoter of terrorism because of her support for the declaration of Jerusalem as the capital of israel – a fantasy pimped out by the democrat party platform.
Hillary Clinton is giving fuel to ISIS/ISIL. She claims says she is most qualified in foreign affairs? Arrogant. She thirsts for a larger NATO budget. She arms those who foment conflict and war. She prides her support to draft women into military service. And she wants to rule the world economy using the TPP.
Maybe she is just trying to find a reason to keep funding the mini-nuke program for a low level WORLD WAR 3.
Could be while Bill was getting it on with an admirer, she was in the sack with Lucifer.
Coup attempt now under way in Turkey.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara
Maybe related to this, or to Murtaza’s story. Turkish PM was talking Wednesday about normalizing relations with Assad.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/13/turkey-pm-greatest-goal-is-to-improve-relations-with-syria-and-iraq
Also, today, a report that John Kerry is in Moscow talking about joint US-Russian air ops in Syria.
http://www.juancole.com/2016/07/proposing-airstrikes-extremists.html
FWIW.
Yes, and it looks as if it may be with the full backing of the military.
Turkey is one of the few nations on the planet where news of a military coup is at least a bit reassuring. ;^(
PM Yildirim had floated the idea Wednesday of normalizing relations w/Assad. There’s also this business of Kerry in Moscow talking about joint air ops.
http://www.juancole.com/2016/07/proposing-airstrikes-extremists.html
Yes. Hard to tell what triggered this, but the Turkish military has long regarded itself as the guarantor of a secular nation/Kemalism and have never been happy with Erdogan, who is definitely not a Kemalist and also happens to tend toward irrationality and megalomania.
Interesting times.
Ah,democracy is only for some?
Please.a military coup is the worst thing that could happen to Turkey,as generals are usually idiots.
An israeli inspiration or an israeli rejection,which one remains to be seen.
You don’t know much about Turkey, do you?
Now, run along and read some modern history.
Oh,arrogant one,I know what Erdogan represents,a resurrection of Ottoman glory,but as I don’t give a f*ck for any foreign govt shenanigans ,their business is their own,as screwing with other nations business is why we are in the shitehole we are,or haven’t you been keeping score?
America First baby.
And I also recognize that military coups are anathema to good govt.,no matter the people or what prejudice one holds for them.
As I said it could be either Israeli supported or an Israeli rejection as Erdogan has opened up relations recently with Israel.
Or a possible Syrian angle.
You don’t know much about Turkey, do you?
Are you really supporting a military coup? You surprise me.
I don’t know, yet, whether or not I’m supporting a military coup.
However, as I said, Turkey is one of the few nations where news of a military coup may not be entirely alarming. You have to understand a bit of the history of Turkey since WWI, the principles of Kemalism, the military’s relationship to those principles, and Erdogan’s dismantling of the Kemalist system.
Where Does Erdogan Want to Take Turkey?
Note: Despite being founded by a former AIPAC operative, WINEP is widely respected for balanced analysis and solid research.
Certainly makes interesting reading. Personally I can not condone military coups, on principle.
When in history has a military coup swiftly given way to democracy that protects and upholds civil liberties?
As far as I know, Erdogan — while behaving in many ways like a tyrant — has not made free and fair elections impossible.
I agree – I can not condone a military coup, particularly of a democratically-elected government – even if I don’t like that government! Accepting such a thing is impossible for me, but perhaps Doug sees flat-out rejection of the idea as being too inflexible. People here are full of surprises.
I do.
I generally prefer democracy, but it isn’t sacred to me, mostly because I know how poorly-informed, how easily-led, how emotionally-driven and how tribalist the human masses tend to be.
What would, e.g., Alabama and Mississippi be like if allowed simple majoritarian democracy without federal or constitutional oversight? Jim Crow would still be in effect and lynchings would be routine. Would you oppose the equivalent of a coup under those circumstances?
I could go on, of course, with numerous other examples, but you probably get the point.
The U.S. has a Constitution with many important counter-majoritarian amendments guaranteeing important rights. But I don’t know of any military coup that has resulted in democracy and the same protections of those rights. If there is an example or two, they’d be few and far between.
That’s not really the proper measure by which to judge, IMHO.
Very few places in the world (if any) have real democracy and effective guarantees of important rights for all. If there are such places, the US is certainly not among them, nor are most of the nations of western Europe. Perhaps some Scandinavian countries approach that ideal. In the end, capitalism, with its “inequality imperative” is incompatible with democracy and equal protection.
The measure by which coups, or any other change of governance, ought to be judged is the relative well-being of the people, before and after.
In Turkey, there is a rich history of military coups, with mixed results. None of them have resulted in the sort of society one might wish, but all that I can remember have been prompted by conditions that were entirely untenable and there was no chance that they could be remedied by democratic means.
And, really and truly, Erdogan is an authoritarian, deeply opposed to secularism, equality for women, on and on. He ain’t no democrat.
<blockquote.The measure by which coups, or any other change of governance, ought to be judged is the relative well-being of the people, before and after.
I reject that metric to the extent it assumes some form of government other than democracy can reasonably be expected to best serve the people. The U.S. is severely corrupt by wealth inequality and neoliberalism, but it is still possible to organize for democratic change and there is no non-democracy for which I would trade it.
No form of government can do better for human beings than democracy. (I’m not a utopian.) Military coups virtually never result in anything but tyranny. (Neither am I dystopian.)
What it assumes is that most of what is called democracy is no such thing.
Oh, yeah, we can organize. It just doesn’t result in change.
Once again, Gilens and Page:
I’m afraid that I am a dystopian, because our population size, our economic system, our level of technological development and its applications, and our political structures are incompatible with sustainability and, ultimately, with survival. I = P * A * T
I find politics and world affairs interesting, and hope and optimism are long-developed human tendencies, of which I am not free, but the reality of our situation is inescapable to any who study it without self-deception. We are at or beyond the limits of energy and essential resources of all kinds and we have filled the planet’s sinks to overflowing with our toxic wastes. No technology and no magic is going to save us.
Everyone who was paying attention has known since, at the latest, 22 April 1970, what we needed to do to save ourselves. We haven’t done it and it is almost certainly now too late.
These discussions, fascinating as they are, amount to deck chair rearrangement.
Most Western nations are democracies, including the United States. They are better countries in which to live than any non-democracies.
Yes. It does. At the Founding only property-owning whit males could vote,slavery was legal, gays were imprisoned and even castrated, and married women were little better than their husbands’ chattel. When the Industrial Revolution happened, there were no work-place safety laws, no 40 hour week, no unions, and in that era both contraception and abortion were illegal.
There was no K-12 public education, and indeed, parents did not have to educate their children. Social Security retirement and disability did not exist.
I could go on and on. Rather obviously significant changes have occurred that have bettered the conditions of many, through the democratic system.
Few expected a 74-yr-old social democrat to take 22 states in the Democratic primary. My parents’ generation is gonna croak, and another young one not hostile to the word “socialistic” (or at least social democrat) is going to follow and be added to the voting power of the millennials.
There’s just no reasonable doubt that this is an overall superior situation than in any non-democratic country. Certainly better than any government established by a military coup that I know of.
I remain unconvinced of any justification of this military coup, and further I’m not at all sure the US was ‘democratic’ before women and POCs could vote (or indeed after, considering the nation is ostensibly a Republic in which the electoral college rather mocks claims of actual democracy), so your example seems a little odd. But of course I do see your point, and I respect it even as I disagree with it.
As for the US, it has never been and is not now democratic. See Gilens & Page: “Testing Theories of American Politics.”
I’m not sure why my example seems odd. It is an example of places where unimpeded majoritarian democracy would result in an ongoing social horror show much worse, even, than exists now.
I’m not trying to convince you that this coup is justified; we don’t know enough yet to judge. I’m simply arguing that “democracy,” especially a deeply corrupt and authoritarian (and I would say fraudulent) democracy such as Turkey’s, does not deserve to be held as sacred and inviolable just because of a label.
Well, it seems odd because we were discussing a military coup of a democratic government, and I thought you were offering that as an example. And yes, I thought you were trying to say it was justifiable.
Perhaps I’m missing something in your argument, but I honestly think I do get your point overall.
It is certainly democratic governments being overthrown in particular that I can not condone, but in general I find all military coups repulsive, if that helps explain my (quite simple) position.
The Erdogan government is definitely not democratic by any reasonable standard. Erdogan is a corrupt autocrat who used public funds to bribe the populace — and control of the media — to ensure his election. That’s no more democratic than using tanks, and certainly no fewer people have been killed by his policies than in the average military coup. What’s more, the man has been steadily dismantling the Kemalist structure and constitution and working to make Turkey a theocracy.
If I mean to say a coup, or anything, is justifiable, I’ll say it in simple, declarative sentences. I’m a blunt (probably even harsh) guy. I only meant what I said: that it is possible for coups to be justifiable and that Turkey is more likely than most places for “suitable” circumstances to arise.
As news continues to come in, it appears that this attempt may have been instigated by a faction of the military rather than undertaken by a unified force led by the most senior commanders. That makes it much less likely that it will succeed or that it was justifiable. And it makes it much more likely that it will leave a worse mess than already existed — which was a very ugly mess, indeed.
Not everyone would agree.
OSCE worried over fairness of Turkey’s presidential elections
Short version: among other things he used public funds to finance his campaign and to bribe voters (free coal, food, clothing, toys . . .).
The seemingly random ? marks are the result of the forum software being unable to render UTF-8 characters.
Attention TI: It’s 2016.
If so, that’s bad. But it wouldn’t seem to rise to actually sabotaging or destroying the machinery of democratic elections.
It seems like that to me.
How could an election held under those conditions be fair?
They’re even worse than the conditions surrounding our elections. ;^)
It’s not the fairest of elections. But it’s also not the dismantling or monkey-wrenching of the election process. There’s certainly plenty of countries in which similar or equally corrupt practices go on, and I don’t see that military coups are the answer. A cure worse than the disease.
Thanks for posting this link. ;)
I don’t think it is such a “complex” issue. Stop “freedom-lovingly” killing them, bombing them, destroying their societies … at the very least that would be a good start
He may have also gotten some inspiration from Obama/USG/NATO maybe? Probably more than from Al-Quaeda?
I read “Mein Kampf” and it didn’t turn me into a Nazi by any stretch
By the way, I was born Bastille day and that incident stopped my happy mood yesterday …
RCL
A hit on the web of free information also.They hate the web.Anyone see Viner’s critique of facts and myths?What a crock,they’ve destroyed the Graun, a now wasteland of zombie hillaryous supporters.
I would like to call attention to historic facts.
This tactic of sowing discord was used by Israel in the past. By creating disharmony between Jews and Christians in Europe and other countries they managed to achieve their goal of getting Jews to move to Israel. Israel and its minion Arab governments like Jordan and Saudi Arabia created ISIS and are the ones leading this group.
This will not work the same way and they know it. The aim is more to scare and intimidate citizens of europe then turn arround and act like sympathisers all the time gradually advising these governments and slowly but surely taking over their foreign policy. Recently they have managed to control Saudi Arabia, they are now advising UNited Arab Emirates on security and deploying surveillance systems that allow Israel to monitor Arab populations.
It’s all an Israeli adventure and no one seems to want to investigate this angle. Not even the intercept.
Right now,only mad dogs and American wackos move to Israel.It’s too dangerous.
The well laid plans of mice and men sometimes go astray.
Everything HRC touches goes astray,in that vein.
Allah,God,forbid that eventuality and the curse of Clinton 3.
I read bent dick is stocking up viagra for the erection.:)
The goals of Republicans, Democrats & ISIS are the same. Bring War and Death.
It’s only the tactics that differentiate them.
@SufiMuslim
Sufi, as you know I am very sympathetic to the basis of your argument here, but it ultimate fails. The group name is what it calls itself.
That’s true for everything from The Army of God — abortion clinic bombers and abortionist assassins — to Israel calling itself “The Jewish State” and frequently purporting to speak for all Jews. While it would be wrong, and bigoted, to attribute the vicious violence of both he Army of God to all Christians, and Israel’s rancid crimes to all Jews, these entities name themselves, and are properly so identified by journalists.
“to Israel calling itself “The Jewish State” and frequently purporting to speak for all Jews.”
I would argue there are disproportionately far fewer Muslims claiming to speak for Islam as ISIS than Jews speaking for Judaism as Israelis.
This is another example of why you can’t get a Hasbara license but you keep trying :)
You are an antisemite — the real kind, not the faux accusation Zionists promiscuously hurl. Indeed, Gator, one of our Jewish regulars — an anti-Zionist since the carnage Israel inflicted on Gaza two years ago — recently posted:
Gator and I both find your identifying me as a hasbara practitioner to be hilarious.
But your Jew hatred is decidedly not funny.
-Mona-
You reflexively resort to killing the messenger while proclaiming your dedication the constitution. You are a hypocrite.
Why don’t you post my response to Gator’s post?
It is because -Mona-‘s only goal is to sow discord with righteousness. How Catholic of you.
I presume that incoherence was meant to communicate something. Whatever it is I’m confident it is as illogical or just plain dumb as most of what you post.
Why is it so difficult for you to recognize you’re attacking the 1st amendment? When you call me an antisemite and tell others to ignore me or that “even Gator …” , your goal is to suppress my speech. You know damn well Glenn defended the Nazis right to free speech and you remind us, frequently, you were his former law partner; so act like the lawyer you claim to be.
Still waiting for you to post my full conversation with Gator.
I understand to do so would undermine your position.
I’ll not hold my breath …
God, you are a moron, in addition to being a bigot.
I cannot attack the First Amendment because I am not an agent of the government and this is a private venue. Moreover, you are free to spew as much Jew-hatred as the management here will permit. But, should it decide to disallow your posting antisemitism, that also would not constitute a violation of the First Amendment.
I was correct when I observed about your initial incoherence: “Whatever it is I’m confident it is as illogical or just plain dumb as most of what you post.”
You are attempting to suppress my speech because it offends your delicate sensibilities.
You self-score your own exams; nice touch.
Macroman listed a slew of your falsehoods and you responded to him by saying his list was “too long”. You did not repudiate a single claim he made because his claims were on target.
Let’s pick just one and discuss it.
Jessica disagreed with your assertion that”virulent racism” drove the Brexit vote.
You lambasted her as “immoral” for not seeing things your way. You trashed the commenter as a way of elevating your position. Nice way to defend the 1st amendment …
This is a pattern. No one is more disruptive to this site than -Mona-. She resorts to invective because her intellectual arguments fall short.
FFS, he did not such thing. he spewed a lot of quotes none of which showed I said what he had at first claimed, a claim from which he ultimately backed off.
Uh-huh. At least you’ve retreated from that First Amendment idiocy. I’ll continue to call out your antisemitism, and if you are such a fragile snowflake that you feel that “suppresses” your speech, I don’t care.
Ah, I see you have not actually abandoned your imbecilic invocations of the First Amdnement:
Just how fucking stupid are you?
Nothing I write to another commenter at this site implicates the First Amendment for that party. I have as much right here to post strong criticism of anyone’s post as they do to post their original comment. Neither of us, however, are exercising First Amendment rights as against each other.
You would seem to need a “safe space” in which to cower from me. Perhaps some “trigger warnings” before reading my comments?
When you tell the entire board to not interact with me because I’m “an antisemite” you are attempting to suppress my right. You appeal to authority by saying not even Gator blah, blah, …
You chided Macroman for agreeing with, and giving me legitimacy, (no shit!) because, as you said, “nuf said is an antisemite”. Attacking the messenger and not the message is rank behavior.
You are incapable of seeing your behavior for what it is and it has been noted by others here. Your response that such feedback “never works on me” speaks volume.
No, you have no “right” as against me or as against this site. As long as management permits it, you are free to spew as you like, and I am free to tell you and others what I think of you and your bile, including that it might be best to ignore you. This is not anything I can or would wish to enforce — everyone is free to do as they please.
That you dislike my recommending that a foolish antisemite be ignored does not constitute, in any way, an interference with any right you hold.
You chronically deploy fallacies, but cannot recognize when another is not doing so. I’m offering evidence that I am not the only person here to clearly see that you are a Jew-hater.
Evidence which you cannot dispute. Because you are a Jew-hater.
” including that it might be best to ignore you.”
Speaking of walk-backs …
Gator has gushed with pride over Glenn’s Jewish background and he has asserted he IS different by being Jewish. He has hurled as much invective towards me as you have done so he is hardly a credible witness to your charge but he most assuredly is a self-proclaimed authority on antisemitism.
I think we need to parse this terminology more carefully.
Unlike Sufi, I have no problem calling groups by the names they give themselves. IS/ISIS can be named whatever it wants, as far as I’m concerned.
However, like Sufi, et al., I have a big problem with using language that accepts as reality the impression the evildoers (I just love that word — thanks, Shrub!) are trying to make.
I don’t accept that the “Jewish State” represents Judaism. I don’t believe that the “Christian Identity” movement (or a boatload of other tendencies and sects) have anything to do with Christianity as taught by Jesus and his early followers. I don’t recognize Hindu nationalism as reflective of the lessons taught by, e.g., the Bhagavad Gita.
And I certainly don’t see any evidence that the actions and proclamations of the violent extremist groups we are discussing here is reflective of the teachings of any of the major, mainstream (sane) tendencies of Islam.
So the terms “Islamic terrorism,” “Islamism,” etc. are as inaccurate and offensive as any similar terms would be if applied to other mainstream religions.
“I don’t accept that the “Jewish State” represents Judaism. ”
Antisemite!!
Jewish State represents Israel the country
Judaism represents a religion
Can one criticize the government policies of Israel the country without being labeled antisemite or is it uniquely immune from criticism among nations?
The word antisemite is a dog-whistle to attack because Israel is special in the magnitude of its crimes and needs reflective defense because rational defense is not possible.
Archaic Jewish law still dominates Israeli policy and behavior towards Palestine.
When 60% of a people are OK with summary execution of prostrate Palestinians then the country is as lost as Germany was in the 30s. Yes, there were some very good, decent, Germans during that time, too.
Doug, I think we basically agree. I don’t use the terms “Islamism” or “Islamic terrorism.”
Finally, what the meaning of ‘IS’ is: if Sufi says ISIL/ISIS/IS wild dogs of the Levant have nothing to do with Islam, I would give Sufi the benefit of doubt … for old time’s sake if noting else. *also, my own cursory examination of Islam confirms Sufi’s bias fwiw.
\\!!// … Her furious angels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut6N1mIhA4Q
“Islamic terrorism,” “Islamism,” etc
For my two cents, I prefer the term insurgents or rebels. These groups political motives are to get rid of the US from the middle east and stop support of the governments there so they take power. Ex: Taliban in Afghanistan.
They merely use the Quran in a twisted and perverse way on those less educated in order to get followers. Without followers, they have no power. Thus, they resort to these tactics to get more followers and of course, point to US involvement in the region as well to swell their ranks.
But the end games is to seize control of a country, its population and resources. It’s a political objective. Same as in Iran.
It is hard to interrogate an attack truck. And the possibly innocent driver is dead. However, the public will be told what the French gov deems best for them to hear and never the dangerous truth. It is not just America where the Truth is considered sexist, racist, red neck, right wing, Nazi, etc. Give the people chicken noodle soup and be happy.
Isn’t it strange that whenever the French government is faced with internal issues and incident like this happens to divert attention.
Things that make you go Hmmmm?
Interrogation trumped by assassination?Not one of these guys are ever taken alive.Or even attempted to be taken alive.Did they blow this guy up with a remote bomb?
Purposeful or coincidence?
The West is involving itself in the Middle East in interventionist ways that are more problematic than many people in the establishment and most people in the general public comprehend. It isn’t simply that blowback from interventionism occurs, it is also that meddling in the region is actually an insane and stunningly reprehensible thing to do.
Two strains of Wahhabism (extremist, violent orthodoxy initiated by ?Abd al-Wahhab in the 18th century) are vying for power over Islam: The first strain is based in Saudi Arabia and supported by the West because of interests including oil, Full Spectrum Dominance for the West and its allies, and the control over Sunni Islam that spreads out from the influence of the House of Saud; the second strain of Wahhabism/Salafism is ISIS, which agrees with all the atrocious ultra-reactionary repressions of the Saudi version but doesn’t acknowledge Saudi Arabia as the center of power – in many ways ISIS is posing as a “corrective” to contemporary Wahhabism which ISIS probably believes has been corrupted by the West.
So, while all this is going on, the US and others are meddling in the region, supporting one strain of a type of extreme and offensive religious orthodoxy over another, claiming to be humanitarian (when the interests are really resource and power based) at the same time as killing thousands of innocent people and inflaming the whole issue beyond the parameters it would normally or naturally assume.
There is little we can do to ameliorate the situation, and meddling certainly won’t help. But we need to be informed that the situation is not how it is portrayed generally by the media, nor is it reducible to the propaganda served up by the government which the media echoes. Strict Wahhabism doesn’t recognize Shi’ites or Sufis as real Muslims, for example (ironic since Wahhabism is the most obvious candidate for “not really being Islam” considering it is ostensibly a religion of peace), and so a hugely dangerous game is being played here.
This reporter, Murtaza Hussein has to my knowledge never bothered to mention all of this history, and I wonder if he is a Wahhabism (Saudi version) supporter himself, or at least a very strict Sunni with a vested interest in not mentioning the similarities between ISIS’s “Islam” and that of the House of Saud.
I highly recommend reading Sufi Muslim’s posts below, as more insight into the struggle to define Islam’s modern identity can be found there. As you read, realize that the West – by intervening and meddling in the volatile situation – is not helping that poster transform her* religion from within in a progressive sense, but actually making it more difficult for her to do so.
Yes, I am assuming that poster is female.
How do you figure? The U.S. and Iraqis have been pushing ISIL out of Northern Iraq. ISIL is losing territory fast. They got massacred exiting Fallujah weeks ago.
You still have Wahhabism (radical extremism) flourishing beyond what it would normally, whether victories over ISIS increase or decrease, for (as I explained), Saudi Arabia is Wahhabi – like ISIS – and part of a precariously dangerous position of power over Sunni Islam as it is; in visibly supporting this we are rousing up unnecessary resistance against the West because we are seen to be irresponsibly involved. Plus, innocent people who would not otherwise have died are also obliterated in the “massacres” executed by the airstrikes which you praise.
I don’t call any that “amelioration” (making the situation better), particularly since the risk of blowback (being attacked by terrorists in retaliation for Western intervention) is so high.
I don’t think you fully read my post, or perhaps you are also a supporter of one strain of Salafist doctrine over another – and a supporter of meddling in the region for profit and power at the expense of sanity.
“Rousing up unnecessary resistance” against the West is a secondary goal of ISIL, with its prime directive being to rid the surrounding area of the Muslim apostates. We can only speculate as to what would have transpired had the U.S. and so many other countries not intervened, but maybe ISIL expands its territory in Iraq. One thing is for certain, which you inexplicably ignore: their imperialistic conquest across northwestern Iraq is being repelled. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/inside-isis-quietly-preparing-for-the-loss-of-the-caliphate/2016/07/12/9a1a8a02-454b-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html
How would you define success? Controlling territory is critical to their goal of building a state. What you’re suggesting is inaction; that the Islamic State be allowed to crusade throughout the middle east with impunity. Or that the burden be placed almost entirely on Iraqis. Also, intervention against ISIL is not simply some unilateral effort by the U.S. or the West. Russia and Iran aren’t just sitting on their thumbs.
You probably have a 6% chance that anything issued by Wapo concerning IsUS and the war of terror has any veracity.
Yesterdays weather and sport scores are close to 100% correct.
GREAT POINT DAHOIT!! Who to trust:
1.) Pulizer-Prize winning author Joby Warrick, who is highly knowledgeable about ISIL and presents a strong narrative reinforcing his point.
Or
2.) Dahoit, some dude online whose knowledge of the subject is questionable and who simply dismissed the Wapo article. But… was able to pull a surprisingly specific percent figure out of his ass.
Defending serial liars exposes your allegiance to zion,from where the truth is prohibited.Joby Warrick.never heard of her.heehee.
Does she have nice nails?
Intervention has to be seen in the context of who it is supporting and why. My purpose in bringing this up is to reveal the whole historical picture which is hidden by the mainstream media (and often by alternative media). You personally have to take responsibility for the fact that you are supporting (by supporting intervention – particularly Western intervention which backs up supposedly “good rebels” against “bad” ones) a virulent strain of Wahhabism centered in Saudi Arabia that is just as violent and extreme as ISIS, and you are inviting blowback from radical extremists which puts all of the rest of the populace in those countries at risk. I doubt very much the consequences would be worse without intervention, as the so-called “appeal” of ISIS is greatly exacerbated by it.
Whatever the solution, the honest appraisal of the situation should be broadcast openly so that people in the West can see whether they really do or do not support their government’s actions – which are not merely “fighting terrorism” (as is claimed) but entrenched corporatist, militarist agendas from corrupt establishments, the motives of which are hidden beneath propaganda and much-too-simple memes. As long as people know that they are actually supporting (via intervention) a movement just as violently extreme as ISIS, at least then the Western hypocrisy – and waste of lives and money – is out in the open.
You would be surprised how little of the establishment knows of the true situation, let alone the public.
Humor me with some alternative solutions.
I would be more content if the facts were well known and we could all come up with solutions together as an informed people. The idea that the only choices about how we can act are either extreme or aggressive interventionism under the auspices of deceptive propaganda leaves no opening for truly humanitarian outreach to other cultures immersed in this unnecessarily-inflamed Wahhabi fight between the House of Saud and ISIS for control of Islam.
Personally I believe strongly in non-interventionism as a principle, but I can to some extent respect the ‘realpolitik’ response (although I vehemently disagree with it) if it is honest and not merely a mask for corruption, corporatism and militarism – which so much of Western interference (and domestic policy) obviously is.
I’d simply like all of us to be truly informed, and for *that* to be the foundation of democratic foreign policy decision-making, rather than leaving it up to dubious authorities and untouchable chains of command who are plainly lying about the situation.
Like Jill Stein, I think one very important thing to do is for us to stop the flow of weapons into the Middle East. As she says “The US has supplied nearly $100 million in weapons sales to Saudi Arabia in recent years – a country that funds terrorism. We need to end this now.”
The remnants who survived got the best care in an Israeli field hospital?
Uh, the man was unemployed, divorced and suicidal? ..sounds familiar don’t it? So let’s give credit where credit is due..Part of French Society from which this man apparently felt hopelessness and helplessness died along with him. When are We going to start calling the bombings in Syria and Iraq, Catholic inspired, Prorestant inspired, _______ inspired? (Fill in the blank)
The only ‘intrinsic values’ the west displays are imperialism, oppression and war and that is how they will respond to these reprisal attacks, it’s all they know. Concern trolling about some fictitious shared values rings hollow when western civilization depend on imperialism, oppression and war to maintain their lifestyles and they will not surrender any of that advantage for moral reasons, it will have to be taken from them.
I’d rather have us, the western world, and them, the Muslim world, be separated. By borders, gates or some other forms. I’m tired of them. Let them swallow in self pity and fight among themselves so the rest of us can lead productive lives.
The Muslim world would have appreciated greatly if your Western world wouldn’t have interfered in their countries…taken their natural resources, done regime change, installed brutal dictators, waged wars and destroyed their infrastructure and caused complete mayhem. The Muslim world apologises to you for making you so tired of them. Now go f*** yourself.
Sorry, I don’t self-hate because of the country I was born into. And I don’t have any sympathies for any one out to attack civilians.
Not as tired as they are of US.
Jeez,the arrogance and hubris.
We started this,not they,and it didn’t start 9-11-01,it started in 48 with the establishment of Israel,the gilded splinter in the ME,causing infection after infection,but no doctor will say,to stop the infection,we must first drain the swamp of BS,and make those arrogant scum,and US their thug bodyguard ,leave their neighbors in the peace they desire.
Because as we see daily,until all are secure,none will be.
I didn’t start shit and neither did the people on that boulevard in Nice.
The killer may have gotten his inspiration from Al Queda. The blogger moonofalabama cited a recent article in an affiliated AQ magazine showing how a truck could be used for mass killing.
The killer was employed as a truck driver. He was recently arrested after causing an accident when he fell asleep while driving.
I don’t think he needed Inspire to provide the idea. It’s possible, certainly, but there is no indication, so far, that the guy was anything other than an angry petty criminal with a history of domestic violence.
I’ve never in my life read or hear about a petty criminal taking out the lives of 80,and maiming hundreds because he got caught sleeping on the job.
Is he IsUS,probably not,but he certainly was inspired by them ,AlCIAda,or alnUSrA.
Again, supporting terror there,will not prevent terror here.(or France or anywhere else.) And its all the result of two stooges for
Zion entering the Wot like the moles they are.(Hollande-
Sarkosi)France should execute them by firing squad,along with Germany offing Merkel,another deep thinker.not.
This article is right on the money. We are already bombing the hell out of the Islamic State, and the overall containment strategy seems to be working. So when you hear requests for “increased effort against the Islamic State,” from the U.S. perspective that means you either put more U.S. soldiers on the ground or you relax rules intended to protect civilians being held hostage by ISIL in Syria and Iraq. The answer should be absolutely not.
One other thing worth mentioning is that ISIL attacks in Europe and outside of Syria/Iraq could ramp up due to their increasing loss of territory. As the Washington Post reported earlier this week, ISIL is mentally preparing itself for losing key cities such as Raqqa, it’s “capital” in Syria. As it continues to lose ground, ISIL may have to shift its strategy from an emphasis on the near enemy (Syrian, Iraqi and other ME regimes,the Shia, in-fighting with other groups) to its external enemies, which is basically everyone, but especially the West. After all, the West is to blame for crushing the Islamic State’s genocidal caliphate.
One thing that we have going for us in the West, and the world, is that Bin Laden bet against ISIS. He knew that they would likely be crushed. The sooner that there is no sign of any Islamic State ruled by terrorist, the sooner some of these thugbrains will relize what Bin Laden meant. They will still be thugbrians mostly, but denied resources on the level they had. They are making mention thay they will continue these attacks until the caliphate is secure. But as Bin Laden said, the West will form against a caliphate and it will be doomed. Thats happening. they can keep up with their sisy attacks. They can expose their deathcult beliefs one by one and die. All of them.
“After all, the West is to blame for [causing] the Islamic State”
Fixed that for you. The PNAC plan is in full swing.
Comical; what, they’re increasing their Zanax and Zoloft …
We can ignore WaPoop more better if you stop posting their droppings.
Their goal is to perpetuate the belief that the war on something is working. So unless you are getting paid to spread their turd sandwiches …
No. The U.S. receives blame for “enabling” the rise of the Islamic State. Grammar.
This article was by Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Joby Warrick. Maybe you should actually read the article first?
I award your response a 1 out of 10.
You get 1 point for pointing out that the U.S. helped enable the rise of ISIL. Here’s the remainder of your scorecard, it ain’t pretty:
* Response has little to no relationship to the article.
* Did not attempt to rebut any points.
* Contained irrelevant information and insinuation (PNAC).
* Ad hominem attacks against the Washington Post.
* Tired and ambiguous platitude (“Wapo perpetuates… that the war on something is working”).
* Suggestion of a paid shill.
* Inability to complete your last sentence.
Wapo-the Amazing Kweskin(sic)?Reading jihadi minds?Mah jong cards?
You funny sonny.
But I was winning!
hussain and obama are on the same page:
to fight those mofos successfully we have to divide them not us
Does that even work? I mean, several ISIS-like groups are still a threat, even if they oppose each other.
i meant divide muslims into good and bad, or real (like Spammi Muslim) and fake. i’m recognizing hussain’s assistance in obama’s wot
I would imagine its hell bitch propaganda.Obombas a lame duck.
They hate Trump here,at least for the most part.
NATO and ISIS both want this to be seen as
“Islamist” terrorism because they both need more horrors
to give their lives meaning.
If only Wall Street’s Washington could sell more weapons!
Their “economy” needs more violence and austerity.
A scholarly work on Shariah:
“Reasoning with God: Reclaiming Shari’ah in the Modern Age”, by Dr, Khaled Abou El Fadl, at https://www.amazon.com/Reasoning-God-Reclaiming-Shariah-Modern/dp/0742552322/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468608195&sr=1-1&keywords=reasoning+with+god
Synopsis:
Again, I am not concerned if someone disagrees with Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl, whose books are apparently banned in Saudi Arabia, as he brings out the dangers of Salafism/Wahabism.
My primary objective is simply to point this scholarly work out to share how much debate and reformation are taking place in the Muslim world, especially in the West where, due to its freedoms, the Muslims are able to challenge the religious orthodoxies on this important topic.
Murtaza, I would highly recommend this book to you.
Reposted as, again, some are confused and are resorting to fear-mongering. The following understanding of Shariah needs to be pointed out. Whether a non-Muslim, or even a Muslim, disagrees with it is not my concern. My main concern is that this understanding of Shariah, as adhered to by many Muslims, needs to be shared.
==============
WHAT IS SHARIAH?
A Sufi Muslim’s Understanding of Shariah You Won’t Hear About:
Every creature on earth and beyond follows a pattern that defines it and identifies it as unique with a distinct physics or behavior profile unto itself.
For example a dog cannot be a cat, a cat a mouse etc. They are limited and defined given the parameters of their design.
The human being, in his animal self is also subject to this “natural” evolutionary design. The major difference between humankind and the rest of the animal world is the development of the frontal lobe and the evolution and plasticity of the cerebral cortex.
The overwhelming majority of the life of animals is inbreed, “written” within their DNA and cannot under most ordinary situations be altered. Granted among some animals, especially higher on the evolutionary scale have some learning capacities. Some simple animals seem also to “learn” from experiences, but this is more from repetitive experiences and not from reasoning per se.
Mankind gifted with these two developments nearly entirely learns behavior, empathy, concepts shaped within him through the experience of life.
Shariah is the the exemplary pattern lived, modeled and communicated through the emergence in every era of the prime pinnacle of guided human evolutionary mutations. These mutations are known as the Prophets, Messengers and “enlightened” teachers that are known and some unknown throughout the history of human kind.
Shariah is the attempt to catalog, communicate and contextualize their exemplary life as way through following in their example, humanity as the potential to reach its highest potential as human beings.
Shariah has been much misunderstood and wrongly practiced and defined by the ignorant, Muslims and non-Muslims. It has become a collection of restrictions, judgments and jurisprudence practiced without self-consciousness and higher referencing. In this form it is mostly a detraction and distraction from the “meaning full” and therefore, quite rightly despised.
Shariah has to be part of a holistic approach with the intent to surrender one’s habitual behaviors, concepts and notions of existence to the truth that is resident at the core of everything, especially its glory of Light within the human heart.
In reality, there is nothing but Shariah, in the sense that not even an atom, a quark, an intention, divine or otherwise that is not at it’s core, the very fabric of existence, without which there would have never been a question or questioner regarding Shariah in the first place.
Question: How do we reconcile this description of the Shariah with the Quranic injunctions and Prophetic traditions that seem to indicate that Shariah is also a set of laws, e.g., in matters of marriage, divorce, inheritance, etc.?
All Quranic injunctions and Prophetic traditions that results in “laws” and injunctions are born out of the “original wisdom patterning” that underlies the created world. In present day “Islam” not all the laws and injunctions meet the test and qualify as true to the original patterning. Many have been extrapolated through history as a result of political influence, both secular and “religious”. Many have come about by the best efforts of the scholars and at times they themselves are lost in the influences of their circumstances. That is why the Prophet many times counseled that if you hear something that is attributed to him, to test it against the teachings of the Quran and your own heart!. We all need to reflect on these matters and not leave them solely to the judgment of the Ulema.
The Divine messaging….through the universal sacred patterning and geometry….is the underlying foundation of all things. From this the Quran….its reality..has always been present in the world. This wisdom is revealed at intervals, when the Creator “sends” His messenger to the world to remind and renew…appropriate to the time and place in history. From this foundation…..as life carries on in it myriad of expression….we look for what needs we have and apply them to our own contemporary circumstance. Yes there are “clear” laws and injunctions that have come directly out of the Quran and the Prophetic person, but, context, sensibilities, applications and Mercy must be part of the equation or we surely could use these so-called “clear” laws and injunctions to oppress others for power and obedience to corrupt individuals and systems that keep the letter of the law, but not the spirit and since the spirit is ever with us, it must have its voice, lest the Shariah become a hardened hammer than what it was intended to be, a doorway to rebalancing what has become imbalance.
Dear Sufi Muslim, You sure sound a lot like Fetullah Gulen, so I wonder if in fact you are one of his any number of US proxies like those employed at the nominally Amish stores in New York that he part-owns. If so, then do please explain to us when you get half a chance how the bloke ever came to closely collaborate with and hence empower Erdogan — this until of course the nasty schism that erupted between the two of them in December 2013. Just yesterday I read that Turkey (read: Erdogan) has now filed a formal warrant with the US for Gulen’s extradition to face an array of terrorism and treason charges in his homeland. Gulen has always maintained he is no more than a Sufi Muslim hodja concerned with interfaith dialogue, with no political aspirations or agenda as such — and this despite his former collusion with Erdogan and the latter’s Sunni islamist AKP party in shaping the course of modern [post-Ataturk] politics in Turkey. Can you contribute any enlightenment here?
I became aware of Fetullah Gulen several years ago and did some research on him. I also bought some of his books, but did not read them.
I am not associated with him in any way, and have not read any of his writings or even visited his websites for several years.
I adhere to a Sufi form of Islam, and there are many in existence. ibn Arabi and Rumi are two of my favorite Sufi masters, as is Chishti.
http://sufism.org
Thanks, SM. For others perhaps interested, it turns out from crooked HRC’s emails that Fetullah Gulen and his followers have been significant donors to her 2008 and 2016 campaigns. Because FG rates as Erdogan’s #1 bete noire and is right now being blamed for actually authoring the attempted coup against his government, Turkey’s relations with the US and with NATO are virtually doomed to disaster in the event of an HRC presidency. Indeed, TR’s PM Yildirim is quoted in today’s newspapers saying that no nation harboring FG and his circle of so-called Sufi Muslims can expect to be a friend of Turkey. Cf.
dailycaller.com/2016/07/13/new-ties-emerge-between-clinton-and-mysterious-islamic-cleric/
Interestingly, I came to know about Fetullah Gulen when I read an article by Daniel Pipes years ago, in which he shared that he had good relationships with the Gulen movement.
If I remember correctly, I then looked Fetullah Gulen up and he also had some positive things to say about Daniel Pipes.
However, after reading a few articles of Gulen and visiting his websites, and purchasing but not reading some of his books, I lost interest in him.
Not sure where he is and what he is up to.
Ah, I now see where he is: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/turkey-gulen-coup_us_578a6e7ee4b03fc3ee512102
Interesting!
I wasn’t aware if he was still around.
This is nothing more than the reductionist nonsense that materialists routinely claim. In arguing that the only difference between mankind and the rest of the animal kingdom is his place upon the evolutionary ladder, then you are summarily negating the theosophical claim that mankind is uniquely possessed of an incorporeal and immortal essence called a soul. And that it is by means of one’s soul that man has a unique connection to the Eternal, Unmanifest source of his existence.
Yes, I myself wondered about that. Thanks for challenging it.
That said, the purpose of my posting that was just to share how some sufi Muslims describe the Shariah. No one needs to accept that. It’s only to point it out.
Thanks again,
Any point of view that negates the very existence of the soul and, by extension, the transcendental nature of man himself, must be challenged by any person of faith. This having been said, I appreciate how well you received my challenge – it speaks to a level of humility that I admire.
Your feedback is very important and much appreciated. I will pass it on to the original author of that piece for their input. If I receive their clarification, I will append it to that piece the next time I feel the need to post it.
If you look at that piece, you will see the original description of Shariah, and then there’s a question and answer. So I’ve already gone back and forth with the author on that piece.
Very good. I look forward to any update that you might have to offer… Thanks
Murtaza, you wrote this:
You might consider it nitpicking, but here, you had a golden opportunity to explain that Shariah is simply the outer forms of Islam, which deal with a lot of issues, including how a Muslim performs her daily prayers, fasts, spends money and time on charitable works, performs the pilgrimages to Mecca, builds mosques, obey the laws of the land (yes, obeying the laws of the land is in fact part of the Shariah, as I, and many Muslims understand; if a Muslim doesn’t want to obey the laws of a land, they are free to move elsewhere, or pay the consequences.), etc., etc., etc.
Those who call for the banning of Shariah do not fully grasp that as they limit its definition and scope to a few things they find objectionable — many of them the Western Muslims do not necessarily want anyway.
A Muslim, by a definition, cannot be a Muslim unless she adheres to the Shariah to the extent that is applicable to her.
How in the world has a Muslim supposed to perform the things I have mentioned above without the rules of the Shariah as she understands.
You also had the opportunity to point out that it is this outer form (Shariah) of Islam that makes Islam extremely non-monolithic as the Muslims do not adhere to a single understanding and application of Shariah (again, the many outer forms of Islam).
I invite you to reflect on what I have stated above, and elsewhere in this thread, and respond.
Thanks,
Yes, this is simply the continuatipn of the Waronterror. These french and others there are simply collateral damages, as how the US commandes say it. You have to wonder why these people donot have a home in their country. Trump is correct in addressing the problem saying stop and send them back. The ISwhiteimperalsits and their followers need to get out out these people’s countries and let them work it out. PresBush Hotler taxtic of ForcedRegimeChamge does not work, why should it? The US is relatively safe from terrorism but europe is not, and the europeans need to bring pressure on the US to change its ways affecting all the global. By definition “national interests” lie within your boundaries and not beyond. You negotiate civilly with them– you do not try to enforce predatory economics on them to destroy them. We do this to our own poo, even “family as PuertoRico”. GenDeGaulle had it right, he knew what he saw during WW2 was overkill by the US. He was right in removing France from nato in 1966.
This is why the US wars are all lost wars! Actually it is quite laughable that such a failed strategy is still in place, like using rotary phones?
Here we have yet again another atrocity committed by terrorists in the name of some ideology. This time it seems to be of a ‘lone wolf’ variety and the ISIL is latching onto the propaganda they can mine out of this horrific act. Whether inspired by extremist ideology or just your garden variety of angry disenfranchised young man we see a pattern that must take into account the situation facing a lot of the youth. We never know when someone ‘goes off the rails’ and wants to end their life taking out as many as they can. In the USA guns are the primary weapon of choice, in the EU there seems to be guns available but as witnessed yesterday a vehicle can even be more devastating. And there are a LOT of vehicles everywhere. So the problem entails toxic ideology and angry youth. This is a complex issue and “banning Muslims” or bombing the shit of the middle east won’t solve it anytime soon. I wish I had a good answer but again this is complex with a lot of issues to address. But first we need to not give in and destroy our freedoms by taking away yet again more privacy and open society. If that happens they are the ones winning the war.
War and droning hasn’t worked. Who has the courage to call for peace to end this perpetual cycle of violence by the west and blowback to western civilians? Peace doesn’t mean laying down arms but end the offensive operations and actually live up to names like Dept of Defense and Israel Defense Forces.
I thought it was a great article. Very enlightening.
@Maz and everyone:
By all accounts seen so far, Lahouaiej-Bouhlel was a garden variety asshole, wife-beater, petty criminal and dangerous, irresponsible driver.
There is no indication that he was even an observant Muslim, let alone an adherent of some twisted perversion of Islam.
At the moment, he just looks, to me like a lone berserker.
And Sufi is right: we need to stop calling the organized, murderous crazies “Islamic.” They aren’t, any more than the unhinged and confused attackers of gays or abortion clinics are “Christian.”
The “unlabeling” religious-based terrorists is not helpful either. The motivations of these people need to be understood. And they look to their religions as justifications for what they do. Problem is then some people want to implicate the entire religion and believers.
As for outward behavior–you never know. Given human nature I would bet that many of the Catholic priests who raped young boys still believed in Jesus Christ. I’ve seen assholes suddenly convert to Christianity. And you what happened? They became asshole Christians.
It just sounds to me as if you really, really want to blame Islam, whether there’s evidence or not.
So far, I haven’t seen any. Have you?
Sorry, Murtaza, you yourself are giving this violent group what they want, by referring to them as “Islamic State” and not challenging the use of the oxymoron term, “Islamic Terrorism”.
They are NOT Islamic, and they are not a state!
And there’s no such thing as “Islamic Terrorism”, for the word, “Islamic”, means, “According to the teachings of Islam.”
Do you believe that this Kharijite like group is “Islamic” and is a “state”, and that terrorism is “Islamic”?
I have stated the above often, but you have never addressed it.
This, and other groups, must be declared outside the fold of Islam by the Muslim political and religious leaders! They need to convene a conference and throw these bastards out.
If many Muslim leaders can declare takfir on others for minor things, what this group is doing is extremely un-Islamic and dangerous, and they are cancerous tumors within the body of Islam threatening its very existence, as well as that of the non-Muslim countries.
They are a state: they claim a monoply on use of violence in a given territory.
So do insurgents and separatist movement all over the world.
It takes more than one characteristic of a state to make an entity a state.
States have flags, too. So do the Girl Scouts (and they claim a monopoly on cookies, throughout the US, during certain times of every year).
You are free to accept their claim.
I and many, many, many, many Muslims do not consider them Islamic or a state.
And the opinions of sooooooooo maaaaannnnyyyy Muslims, scholars and non-scholars alike, need to be heard too.
How would Murtaza feel if I were to start writing columns pretending to be him? I am sure he’ll object to it and will point out that no, he’s the one real Murtaza Hussain.
So, this cancerous tumor has misappropriate both terms, Islamic and State.
We don’t accept that, and neither should Murtaza, who is also playing a role in giving this murderous group what they want.
If you want to get technical, ISIL is a proto-state
Hard to disagree with that. And they do provide certain government type services and require payment of taxes and tribute, another characteristic of proto-statism.
OK, as you keep pointing out, western writers, in repeatedly welding together the words ‘Islamic terrorism’, are adopting a meme that is not helpful to understanding in the long run––at least by people who are open to finding a common path to peace.
Perhaps you have provided substitute terms here or previously that might be used. Remind me again. I would welcome writers using them, provided their essays don’t become feats of contorted syntax in need of multiple footnotes and asides.
At the same time, I appreciate the point and tone of Murtaza Hussain’s essay today. Wouldn’t you say, Sufi, that in general he is acting responsibly in reminding westerners not to react to this abomination in Nice by falling into a set trap and flailing around forever after with more violence by the West against people of your faith?
“The Intercept,” indeed the world, suffers from an excess of trolls in word and deed. Rest assured, however, that I and others, learn from peacemakers like you AND Murtaza––both of you.
The tone, the contents and the purpose of Murtaza’s article not withstanding, I have serious issues with referring to these thugs as “Islamic State”. And I particularly object to other Muslims calling them as such. It gives them one more thing they want.
Dr. Juan Cole has also stated this, but I will have to search for his article to add a link here.
Call them murderous thugs pretending to be “Islamic State”. Within history and scholarship of Islam, we already have a term for similar groups: Kharijites.
Dr. Tahir ul Qadri has stated that in his 600+ page fatwa against terrorism.
What Murtaza and other writers can do is to add a footnote to their articles pointing out that many Muslims object to dignifying these cancerous elements as “Islamic State” as they do not consider them Islamic nor do they accept them as a state.
Adding a footnote like this won’t cost TI a dime.
As for the term, Islamic Terrorism, say, “Muslims who carry out terrorism”. It’s only three extra words and won’t cost TI a dime. Or, use a footnote saying that majority of Muslims do not consider terrorism to be Islamic, or something similar.
At the very least, call them Muslim Terrorists; the word, Islamic, to the Muslims means “According to the teachings of Islam”, like the word, Judaic, means according to the religion of Judaism.
Dr. Cole has also pointed this out in a past article, perhaps, after I posted comments on his website.
But it is possible that since the same word, Christian, is used for a person who adheres to Christianity and according to the teachings of Christianity, those who grew up in the Christian tradition use the word “Islamic” for both, and are not cognizant of the difference. Or, perhaps, they WANT to implicate Islam and state that terrorism is according to the teachings of Islam. In which case, writers, like Murtaza, should add a footnote to clarify it.
I don’t think I am asking too much.
>This, and other groups, must be declared outside the fold of Islam by the Muslim political and religious leaders! They need to convene a conference and throw these bastards out.
The problem is that beliefs of ISIS and similar terrorist groups are not far from the beliefs of most orthodox Muslim scholars. Unless ISIS poses a real risk to them and the governments that sponsor them, I seriously doubt that they’d ever declare takfir on these terrorists.
An undemonstrated assertion that should be dismissed as bullshit unless and until this extraordinary claim is strongly supported.
Of course, ISIS is attacking Muslims all over the world, so almost anywhere you could say an announcement of takfir is only motivated by self-interest. But a simple google search shows lots of takfir proclamations.
“Shaykh Salih Al-Suhaymee on ISIS (Daish) and the Alleged Khilafah: Treacherous Takfiri Kharijites ”
“Sunni scholars in Iraq’s semi-autonomous Kurdistan region have condemned the so-called Caliphate or a proto-state proclaimed by ISIS in the northern of the country.”
Moreover:
>An undemonstrated assertion that should be dismissed as bullshit unless and until this extraordinary claim is strongly supported.
In issues such as punishment for apostasy, homosexuality, fornication and adultery, drinking, etc. there’s widespread agreement among these scholars. Of course, they disagree with ISIS on many issues but ISIS didn’t invent its horrific rules. They are unfortunately very Islamic.
>But a simple google search shows lots of takfir proclamations.
Like this one? “Al-Azhar refuses to consider the Islamic State an apostate”
I agree with your point on Takfirism but the real problem here is that those scholars who refuse to declare takfir on ISIS don’t challenge this doctrine as they agree with it. They just don’t think ISIS qualifies for Takfir.