In May 2013, the Washington Post’s Greg Miller reported that the head of the CIA’s clandestine service was being shifted out of that position as a result of “a management shake-up” by then-Director John Brennan. As Miller documented, this official — whom the paper did not name because she was a covert agent at the time — was centrally involved in the worst abuses of the CIA’s Bush-era torture regime.
As Miller put it, she was “directly involved in its controversial interrogation program” and had an “extensive role” in torturing detainees. Even more troubling, she “had run a secret prison in Thailand” — part of the CIA’s network of “black sites” — “where two detainees were subjected to waterboarding and other harsh techniques.” The Senate Intelligence Committee’s report on torture also detailed the central role she played in the particularly gruesome torture of detainee Abu Zubaydah.
Beyond all that, she played a vital role in the destruction of interrogation videotapes that showed the torture of detainees both at the black site she ran and other secret agency locations. The concealment of those interrogation tapes, which violated multiple court orders as well as the demands of the 9/11 commission and the advice of White House lawyers, was condemned as “obstruction” by commission chairs Lee Hamilton and Thomas Keane. A special prosecutor and grand jury investigated those actions but ultimately chose not to prosecute.
The name of that CIA official whose torture activities the Post described is Gina Haspel. Today, as BuzzFeed’s Jason Leopold noted, CIA Director Mike Pompeo announced that Haspel was selected by Trump to be deputy director of the CIA.
This should not come as much of a surprise given that Pompeo himself has said he is open to resurrecting Bush-era torture techniques (indeed, Obama’s CIA director, John Brennan, was forced to withdraw from the running in late 2008 because of his support for some of those tactics only to be confirmed in 2013). That’s part of why it was so controversial that 14 Democrats — including their Senate leader Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Sheldon Whitehouse, and Tim Kaine — voted to confirm Pompeo.
That Haspel was the actual subject of the 2013 Post story was an open secret. As Leopold said after I named her on Twitter as the subject of that story: “All of us who covered CIA knew. She was undercover and agency asked us not to print her name.” Gina Haspel is now slated to become the second-most powerful official at the CIA despite — or because of — the central, aggressive, sustained role she played in many of the most grotesque and shameful abuses of the war on terror.
Top photo: An interrogation room at Camp Delta in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, for detainees from the U.S. war in Afghanistan, April 7, 2004.
// __ “Fox News”: “Trump defends Putin”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2017/feb/06/we-got-a-lot-of-killers-trump-defends-putin-video
Trump: What, do you think our country is so innocent? (2x)
O’Reilly: I don’t know of any government leaders who are killers.
Trump: Well, … take a look at what we have done too? We have made a lot of mistakes, too …
RCL: Dear Bill O’Reilly: once again, Western MSM got it right and crazy orange @ss Trump is wrong! Previous U.S. Presidents aren’t killers, but “freedom-lovers”!
I can’t even imagine Mr. “Yes we can”, “it turns out I am better at killing people than I could have ever imagined”, “Nobel Peace Prize” Obama or any other “freedom-loving” U.S. President before him, repeating that statement live to a prominent Western MSM prestitude!
RCL
meh, I’m sure Trump has his motives, I’m kind of tired of people who didn’t manage to make 10 billion dollars thinking they have some kind of valid critique of someone who was smart enough, and probably vicious enough, to do so. Bottom line in “civilization” is you are playing the game of commerce, if someone does it a thousand times better than you dreamed of and you’re hating on them, you’re hating on success and you’re a hater
// __ Hillary Clinton Brags About Voting For A Border Fence To Keep Out Illegal Immigrants
youtube.com/watch?v=AlFi0QUboxs
~
// __ Hillary Clinton Voted for the Mexican Wall in 2006
youtube.com/watch?v=kDvEgV8AzP4
~
// __ Terrified of Trump? Europeans backing Clinton surprised to learn they share Donald’s ideas
youtube.com/watch?v=zCdbxFgJa-Y
~
RCL
Who do you trust more Gina Haspel or Vladimir Putin?
NOT TO LONG AGO: http://dailycaller.com/2016/12/14/the-cascading-blunders-of-the-dnc-fbi-and-white-house-invited-hacking/
There were several critical mistakes that led to the massive hacking of both the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and chief Hillary Clinton advisor John Podesta’s emails, and the blame rests squarely with American leadership at the highest levels, according to reports.
TODAY: http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/04/exclusive-house-intelligence-it-staffers-fired-in-computer-security-probe/
“…Also among those whose computer systems may have been compromised is Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the Florida Democrat who was previously the target of a disastrous email hack when she served as chairman of the Democratic National Committee during the 2016 campaign.”
Trump detractors say he doesn’t respect women; he does!
He honors psychopathic Zombie women like Gina Haspel and Blackwater witch DeVos to prove it.
Thank you Glenn Greenwald for your hard work and dedication.
Does she exist?… there is no photos anywere on the web of this Gina…very strange…
https://cryptome.org/2013/05/gina-cheri-haspel.htm
One of the main reasons I stopped being an O’Bomba supporter after actually voting for him in 2008 – some of the other main ones being making an Israeli citizen his chief of staff and droning the bejeezus out of any Middle East wedding or funeral his spy satellites could find – was his decision to ‘look forward’ and NOT prosecute W’s torturers and their bosses. That after he was oh-so-outraged about torture and dronings while he was campaigning, which made deplorables such as myself vote for him instead of the senile, despicable and evil McCain.
Now, that O’Bomba is gone fishing or golfing, fiery Sanders settled at his new Vermont mansion and Hillary folded like a cheap pantsuit, the outrage is back. Somehow, the bots and cultists who had nothing to say or were supporting O’Bomba’s massacres have found their lost outrage and morals and scream ‘resist’ like cows waiting in line at the abattoir.
And NO, I do NOT support Trump’s appointing torturers to run the CIA, I do NOT agree that ‘we’ should be obediently serve the apartheid ‘Jewish’ state and I do NOT believe that Iran or Russia are automatically our enemies. So, thank you Mr. Greenwald for discussing this.
Sanders has “settled” nowhere. He’s actively organizing and resisting Trumpian bullshit, as well as fighting (still) against neoliberal, DNC asshats.
Nor does he have a mansion; the money used for the purchase wasn’t even his. His wife’s family had a Maine vacation residence not being used, which she sold to trade for one in their state of residence.
planning Le Resistance from maine, organizing his thinking, and resisting using rubber underpants
He’s not in Maine. He’s attending marches and speaking all over, including on CNN in formal debates.
marching and debating are great
progressives are at their best when walking around public places, demanding that other people do things they agree with
this will be a key strategy for progressives going forward
People in the West are at their best when they are demanding the Western “civilization” that Gandhi retorted would be a good idea.
well everyone wants to be civilized … the point is that civilization from the middle ages is making a comeback
conservative Christians and Muslims are weirdly united on this fun trend
but maybe Gandhi: The Box Set will be a new popular thing at college campuses and Vermont political organizing retreats
Muslim-Americans are in the forefront of defending civil liberties in the U.S. History shows marginalized groups — once accepted into the status quo — can be expected to significantly join in marginalizing the next disfavored group. (The exception, to a great extent, has been American Jews. )
Gandhi is a good example of someone who had the insight to both rebel against the Western imperialists while also opposing his own tribe’s uncivilized traditions. Tribalism is a cancer; the universalists are and always have been right. (N.B. I did not say “globalists,” which represents something else entirely.)
Sanders is a universalist which I why I admire him, even as I have big issues with many of his foreign policy positions.
“Sanders is a universalist which I why I admire him, .. ”
swell.
i’m going out into the yard now to sharpen some sticks and paint my face with mud
Sanders The Ferocious (shepherd)
Usa_naziland a blight on human history in the modern era. It’s coming downfall & religation to a scared insula nation will be deserving.
And you decreed blight by looking at… I don’t know…
USSR? China? Israel? Saudi? Nazi Germany? the old Brit and French empires? Congo or very much any other African country (my racism is showing, I know)? Ahhh… why bother? Feel free to expand the enumeration yourself.
During the election, Mr. Trump promised that he would bring back ‘a lot worse than waterboarding’. Like any good negotiator, he hasn’t fully tipped his hand. But I have no doubt that Ms. Haspel has been asked to review proven torture techniques and where feasible, re-introduce them into the CIA repertoire. I therefore did a bit of research on what has worked well in the past. While I have no doubt the CIA will be able to add some modern embellishments, studying the classics is always worthwhile. A word of warning; for those who aren’t CIA material, some of these techniques may be a bit upsetting.
Dating back to the ancient Greeks, the Brazen Bull technique was quite dramatic. The victim was locked inside a hollow bronze statue of a bull, and then fire was lit on the outside, roasting him alive. This, however, seems more useful as a public spectacle than as a means of extracting information, so I can only see the CIA using it at public events and other limited occasions.
Vlad the Impaler is well remembered for his technique of impaling the victims on wooden stakes and leaving them to die slowly over the course of several days. According to legend, he once did this to 20,000 people while enjoying a meal. So it might be useful during ceremonial dinners at the White House for example, to impress a group of foreign dignitaries that the US was serious about trade negotiations. This would be especially effective if the victims were the previous group of foreign dignitaries.
Crucifixion was popular in the Roman world, but Christian fundamentalists would probably consider its widespread use to be a bit disrespectful. Also, it apparently didn’t always reliably cause the victim to renounce their beliefs. So it is one of those old techniques that probably shouldn’t be resurrected.
The Rack immediately springs to many people’s minds when they think of torture. In this classic device, the body would be stretched until every joint was dislocated, reportedly one of the most painful forms of torture ever devised. It was extremely effective at coercing confessions, making it puzzling why the technique ever fell out of favor in the first place. I blame the enlightenment.
I isn’t my intention to produce an exhaustive list; after all, the CIA can hire its own researchers. There are numerous devices for crushing toes and fingers, cutting out tongues or eyeballs which the CIA may find useful in certain situations. A lot of research has been wasted on ephemeral concerns such as global warming, that could have been invested in studying torture. The CIA has a lot of ground to make up, but Ms. Haspel seems like someone who can rise to the challenge.
the past is great, but what about the future
the old star trek had some good stuff that could be investigated … pain beams, brain-draining beams, screaming terror beams etc
what good is high-tech if it doesnt produce magic invisible waves of pain and fear
My ‘old school’ bias is showing. The CIA, as a forward looking organization, may very well do what you suggest.
Well… for some context. The 20,000 were the peaceful members of a just defeated Ottoman (Turks, Muslims) invading army. Which shows that, even then, some rulers lacked the required diversity credentials. Not sure about the enjoying a meal part. Do you have a source that is not the DNC, Podesta or the New York Times.
Upon further reflection, I now realize and understand that the impaled Turks were in fact undocumented refugees and Vlad the Impaler had no business preventing them to enter his country. His opposition to these refugees humanitarian move was clearly unconstitutional then as it would be unconstitutional here and now.
There is a famous woodcutshowing Vlad feasting while surrounded by people impaled on stakes. Whether it was produced by the DNC, I don’t know.
Believe it or not, the media was as dishonest then as it is now. Probably because the DNC and the New York Times were as powerful then as they are now.
Vlad the Impaler had many enemies and the merchant guilds of Brasov and other nearby German cities were among them. They did their best to destroy his public image by producing stories and woodcuts like the one you found and sending them to the New York Times affiliates in Transylvania and neighboring countries – Vlad did NOT rule Transylvania, he was imprisoned there.
There seems to be some truth in him impaling many thousands of Turk war prisoners and placing them on the path of a second Turk invasion force. The legend claims that the Turks did not like the sight and turned back. So, yes, treating undocumented invading refugees that way was uncouth but, on the other hand, avoiding another battle that would have resulted into more deaths was probably a good thing.
And, seriously, how long a lunch/breakfast/dinner would have to last before the impaling of 20,000 people was completed? Or are we thinking of something resembling the Alice in Wonderland’s Mad Hatter’s tea party?
Hopefully Mr. Trump will force the NY Times to print a retraction of the smears against Vlad the Impaler. But I fear a lot more people will have read the original story than read the retraction.
Perhaps Mr. Trump could partially undo the damage by renaming the George Bush Center for Intelligence as the Vlad the Impaler Center for Intelligence.
This ‘other’ version of the video shows Vlad (Tepes? Putin? Coincidence?) as a clear supporter of Trump and enemy of Obama and Hillary. The semi-nekkid fat old guys are the country’s top politicians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQz6ELRU4NE
Vlad Tepes (aka Vlad Dracul, aka Vlad the Impaler) is super popular in the country he once ruled – I know it because I was there. People view him as someone who defended his country from unwanted, undocumented, invading Muslim refugees and as one who used some radical means to eradicate corruption and lawlessness.
The linked video is from a Transylvanian rock group founded more than 50 years ago – some of them were briefly imprisoned by the commies. They are begging Tepes to return and bring back ‘law and order’. Coincidentally, I believe they are currently experiencing some unrest because the government is attempting to ‘amnesty’ the corrupt politicians currently in prison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6mHWhUW2ac
The visuals show a little bit of what that impaleds forrest possibly looked like.
impaler was a metal band in the 80s, cant say that i was a fan of them in particular but of course metal kicks ass as a genre
maybe 80s metal will make a comeback under trump, instead of that hiphop and trance crap the kids listen to nowadays
we need more CIA stuff, more 80s metal and more torture please, lets play to our strengths as a nation
These guys have been doing ethno rock since the 70’s, I believe. Band’s name is Phoenix.
I agree, torture is cool but, sadly, it can be easily outsourced.
Ha, ha, ha! Yet, in a sense it is not funny at all that USG’s sadism is not only resembling the Inquisition’s, but it is also becoming more and more accepted as “OK” by “We the people”. Will they ever get to the point of becoming as openly carnavalesque as the Inquisition did? Would that be a good or bad thing?
Since we are talking about torture, crimes against humanity, xenophobia, racism … in the past, present and future; I wonder how will people in the future think of us for killing people extra-territorially with drones based on statistical patterns?
RCL
As if: the Muslims ‘ executive orders wrre’nt hitting the exit ramp at light speed and the constitution could determine the rats’ass we could care about an Arab or Jew this side of either ocean.
Someone needs to do something about Trump et al… They are running amok with all the bs they are coming up with. A lot of their actions are illegal and against International law. The Republicans created this Monster, were too cowardly to put their foot down and now want to hum and hah. One or two of them spoke out and guess what? Still voted him in place… Paul Ryan is the biggest coward of the lot. You wanted him, you encouraged him by voting for him – NOW you DEAL with him.
My guess is the SEALs didn’t count on losing one of their own in that firefight, because it so rarely happens, and sanitized the entire area in a rage response. Mission planners would’ve never given orders to execute all women and children in the area, but are nevertheless guaranteed to impede any investigation into what went wrong.
Like young white race-war mass murderers ever officially being called the “terrorists” they are however, don’t hold your breath waiting for any establishment media to start calling this Trump ordered action the war crime it was. The roots of empire programming run deep.
You sir or madam are yourself a racist!
How did you come to that conclusion on so little evidence?
“How did you come to that conclusion on so little evidence?”
That should be self evident to anyone with at least an average level of intelligence.
Against white people? Probably. Some of us old white dudes feel responsible for the younger dipshits still believing there’s any race but human.
White protestants founded do-called “identity politics,” they set the world up as WAPSs v All the Others Who are Not White. The U.S. has an obsession with “race” because WASPs did/do.
Blacks insisting their lives matter do so in response to the racialization of culture and politics instituted by WASPs before and during the Founding era. The young, white race “holy war” warriors are their direct ideological descendants.
“White protestants founded do-called “identity politics,” they set the world up as WAPSs v All the Others Who are Not White. The U.S. has an obsession with “race” because WASPs did/do.”
Actually this whole narrative is pure bullshit. It wasn’t the “white protestants” that:
1. created the institution of slavery
2. founded the institution of slavery in Africa
3. exploited their fellow “blacks” by capturing and selling them to Iberian traders who themselves were historically predisposed to sharing common genetic traits with their African captives
4. founded transatlantic slave trade
The fact that some proto-American white slave owners preferred to be identified as “protestant” does not make them wholly emblematic of white protestant sensibilities.
However, it was white Christians who founded the abolitionist movement – first in Britain and then in America.
It was also white christian sensibilities that informed the opinions of those who argued for the abolishment of slavery during America’s constitutional convention. And, by the time the US constitution was ratified, six of thirteen states had already abolished slavery. By 1802, 9 of 18 states had abolished the institution of slavery. All of these events were disproportionately driven by “white” men who self-identified as protestant.
As you have already clearly demonstrated your capacity for projecting onto others the utter contempt that you harbor for your own lack of moral integrity, I will not attempt to further dispossess you of the fallacious understanding of history that makes that possible.
I’ve already utterly debunked your absurd “defense” of white protestant America. In the West, white protestants institutionalized racism. (Africa has its own history and issues, but in the West chattel slavery, Jim Crow and ongoing racial hatred was totally built on WASP racial, identity politics.)
This is why, e.g., the largest protestant denomination in the Unites States, the Southern Baptist Convention, began issuing a series of apologies to African-Americans in the 1990s. You know all of this; you simply dislike reality, as is the case with many Trumpers. (See, e.g., the scholarship of Robert P. Jones on white Christian America.)
The Trump presidency is white Christian America’s last (angry) hurrah.
Yes Hypatia, narcissistic sociopaths like yourself are legendary for claiming victory in the face of defeat. It is their infinite capacity for self deceit that predisposes them to only consider ideas that don’t have the potential to challenge the dogma necessarily to sustaining their cherished illusion of omniscience and omnipotence. In short, you are only a legend in your own mind.
An extended string of ad hominems and non sequiturs does not undermine the facts of history you find so deeply unpleasant.
…in the West chattel slavery, Jim Crow and ongoing racial hatred was totally built on WASP racial, identity politics…
And a century of American apartheid later it was left to a post inaugural beltway Presbyterian (and long suffering Jehovahs Witness) President Dwight D Eisenhower and Irish Catholic President John F Kennedy to even begin addressing institutional racism in America.
Catholics had been on white Christian America’s shit list along with both Jews and blacks, for a long, long time. That greatly diminished after WWII, simultaneous with “Roman” Catholics increasingly became far more American and less Roman.
The result is that Catholics are now, for the greater part, included in white Christian America, such that “WASP” no longer accurately captures the problem. (And is why scholars such as Jones refer to “White Christian America” and not to WASPs.)
Wow, I am truly impressed at your ability to give enigmatic expression to the contradictory, race-centric beliefs that allow for your Christ like commitment to atone for the racial prejudice harbored by others. You sir are a stellar example of New World Order sensibilities.
I guess at least some of the Navy Seals like that Trump has declared himself the Orange Napoleon.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/military-convoy-trump-flag-navy-seals
Guess that means the SEALS will get back to being able to engage in their revenge ops,” unjustified killings, splittin’ wigs, and other atrocities as the Righteous Flesh Colored Tip Of Donald Trump’s Stubby Little American Sword.
They already are. Them there is the guys who heroically destroyed a village in Yemen and killed (according to latest reports from locals) 57 civilians, including that 8-yr-old American girl.
Why? Well, the target was the home of a “suspected al Qaeda collaborator.”
What did they achieve? They got a laptop and a thumb drive.
And, of course, the coffin of the SEAL who was killed in the operation was greeted by members of Congress at Dover. I guess that’s an achievement of sorts.
“What did they achieve? They got a laptop and a thumb drive.”
They found a bomb-making video.
Too bad it was up on the internet for more than 10 years.
Killer clowns are real.
Yup. Even the Torygraph isn’t mincing words.
Video released by Pentagon to prove Donald Trump’s deadly Yemen raid was successful is a decade old and available online
what a cruel joke.
Where or where will these heroes in the war against decency ever find private sector employment?
http://www.trtworld.com/americas/the-notorious-erik-prince-set-to-make-a-comeback-under-trump-279334
FAKE NEWS!!!!!
Thank you proclaiming the scroll ready nature of your submission…
Glenn,
Passable coverage.
If pierre does not dump scahill, you should consider dumping pierre. This guy is just truly truly something awful and a stain on your organization.
Have a nice and honest, truth-speaking kind of a day,
Sincerely,
The intercept #2
Lawless empire protects and promotes torturers.
…Thanks Obama.
nothing like going on vacation and having to worry about being kidnapped at customs.. so-called “black sites” are ILLEGAL, and against international law.
death to trumpism.
“. . .knee deep in the Big Muddy,
But the big fool said to push on.”
Trump slaps new sanctions on Iran after missile test
Waist deep ….?
Also, suggest that we change “big fool” to “big orange-haired fool…”
Well, the first verse says “knee deep,” but fools do push on.
Hear a good one yesterday, by Trae Crowder : “Lord-Commander Marmalade” :P
*Heard*
“Lord-Commander Marmalade”
lol!
I’m making orange shred today with the last Sevilles.
No, we have to ask or encourage the “other party” to be credible. where are the Schumers, the Pelosis, the Leaheys, and the preening next Democratic presidential candidate, Cuomo where they stand with these egregious actions. All quiet, isn’t it? Gutless bastards.
We have our Irma Grese, but in a senior executive role. Fraulein Grese never got past the rank of jailer. This administration recognizes talent, it seems.
Yeah, we need a “New Nuremberg” to recognize that kind of talent.
Oops. Just refreshed my memory at Wiki. Grese was tried at Belsen.
Still. . .
Fraulein Grese was one of several camp staff before a British military tribunal, Belsen and Ravensbruck staff, IINM. The US also continued its tribunal at Nuremberg and elsewhere for other staff, e.g., the Doctors’ Trial.
CBP detained the former PM of Norway, traveling on a diplomatic passport, and questioned him over an Iranian visa stamp.
Former Norway PM held at Washington airport over 2014 visit to Iran
I’m saying it’s 1933 but my friend says it’s more like 1934.
And we can thank camp Hillary; a good name for the first operational FEMA camp for citizens.
Isn’t it interesting how the US criticised the USSR for being an evil empire and now has turned itself into the same thing. When a nation forfeits the high ground, it loses soft power and any international influence it used to have!
Not a particularly new idea, but one worthy of remembering re: why the Democratic party as currently constructed is a huge impediment to the change progressives/left seek in this country (and that by issue polling a majority of Americans often support by large margins).
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/01/why-republicans-are-impressive
The key politically isn’t to “fight for what you think is viable now” so you can claim to have accomplished something now (that’s an argument for careerist Democratic party neoliberals worried about their own short term career prospects). Centrism and reasonableness and compromise for compromise sake is a mug’s game.
The key, always, is to fight at all times, with 100% party discipline, for the agenda you want to advance in the future, even if you don’t or can’t get it now.
It’s called setting the table and indoctrinating voters with a “will” to the “possible”.
The Democratic party, if it chose to and actually believed in say, FDR’s Second Bill of Rights, has inherent built in advantages–such a policy agenda is both humanist, appeals to all demographically universally, and is built on tolerance, equal civil liberties for all and economic justice. Nothing about the GOP’s platform does, and would lose out in the long run on its own merits if there was an appropriate counterweight or choice to that agenda provided by a unified Democratic party agenda.
The problem isn’t the 28% of the eligible voting age population that aligns with the radical GOP and makes current elections close, it’s the other 70% that doesn’t demand something better and it’s nominal representatives, the majority of the modern Democratic party, stands for nothing consistently, fights for nothing consistently in solidarity, and believes in nothing except mouthing platitudes and maintaining their positions as defenders of the neoliberal status quo.
And that’s why they will continue to get electorally demolished because their opponent does believe in something (no matter how pernicious and anti-humanist, and is willing to play the “long-game” to get it.
The Dems fail to understand and employ that simple lesson at their continued electoral peril.
“The Dems fail to understand and employ that simple lesson . . ”
Do they? I wonder. Nearly everyone thought the banks were stupid for providing home loans to people without an income, but they all got bailed out in the end, didn’t they?
Don’t have slightest the argument you are attempting to make. I’m not sure what your point re: Dems, home loans, banks, people without income and who exactly got bailed out, but happy to address it if you want to make clear what it is, and by analogy or whatever you are attempting to do regarding my broader point.
I would agree with you that Dems don’t understand lots of things at their political peril.
The democrats failed to prosecute and imprison all of the war criminals from the Bush administration. Then Obama went ahead and added more war crimes to the ones committed by the Republicans. That is the reason that these criminals are now free to enter the government. They should be in prison.
What was promised by hope & change was not delivered. I was hoping for truth and reconciliation so that we did not walk the same path anytime soon.
I know, I’ve been reading your posts for a while, and I agree with you. My point is that democrats may not be organized, but they do realize how things are organized.
well said.
Yup. A fundamental difference that’s been developing in plain sight since the right-wingers and “social conservatives” starting taking over school boards. The minority bad guys are much better organized.
Lotta truth there, RR. Really well said.
I do think the Dems’ absolutely necessary task of unifying around core values for the long term is complicated by the fact that one of their core values is diversity. The Dems are, IMHO, a much bigger tent than the GOP in terms of ideological, political and cultural priorities. Thus it is usually easier to rally Dems in opposition to whatever horrors the GOP is seeking to inflict than to rally them for a coherent affirmative program that can be communicated with clarity. And even getting Dems to oppose something in unison is like herding cats. I’m sure you’ve heard Will Rogers’ old line that “I’m not a member of an organized political party — I’m a Democrat.” It’s a problem.
I don’t disagree. And that’s my point. If your “tent” is so large, that it stands for nothing consistently, then what exactly is the point of calling it a political party? It then become a loose coalition of “interests” that periodically aligns, when there is that periodic alignment they can periodically herd enough cats to advance it. Tactically that’s moronic with regard to the exercise of power. Strategically it’s a death sentence for your coalition and the idea of party.
That’s my point and something I think we could agree upon, and why many don’t perceive the Democratic party as any sort of true “opposition” to the GOP, not in an ideological sense and not in a strategic or tactical sense. And, moreover, why many rightly perceive the Democratic party to be just the “other wing” (the more socially tolerant one) of the same bipartisan war and neoliberal economic party.
That is not to say there are not meaningful differences in the two in certain policy areas, only that one fights for the “rightward” most edge of the agenda, while the other rarely if ever fights for the “leftward” edge of its agenda (and never the economic realm or anti-war realm).
And that’s because one of them actually believes in its agenda, and the other doesn’t. Or at the least the latter isn’t willing to fight for its agenda (as muddled and incoherent as it is) while the other will (regardless of how muddled, and hypocritical it and they are in pursuing it).
Precisely my point.
i believe you and Gator may be being a bit soft on the Democrats. and not just on the Party but on American Liberalism more generally.
the problem with American Liberals isn’t a matter of organization or chutzpah. the tent may be larger, but when it comes to it they’re just as provincial, as parochial, as the GOP. they want liberalism for themselves and fuck everybody else.
if that wasn’t clear before, their defense of Clinton really should have settled the matter. en masse, they fell right into line with their own brand of Fox/Rovianisms they had collectively (and properly) ridiculed for years.
how does that make them any less self-serving than the worst of the “deplorables?”
Precisely. I’ve been fighting to get folks to recognize this locally for decades; butting heads with the local newspaper editor (a fucking relative, no less) to the extent that I haven’t spoken more than two sentences with that bastard out of the concern that I might just become physically violent with that rube, that’s how mush he and his “paper of record” has bought into supporting (through negligence) this backsliding neoliberalism in lieu of a functioning democracy.
Although the local newspaper has a virtual monopoly (which will continue due to the rural demographics here), by protecting his private business by not wanting to inconvenience his advertisers in any way, my newspaper editor relative, like main stream media nationwide, has helped us all arrive at this self-centered and soon-to-self-destruct paradigm through their collective, selfish, and willful ignorance.
What’s this???
This just goes to show how racist world academics are…to take action against the first US cabinet with African-American Ben Carson in it!!! Sad!!!
Academics are not “judging a man by the color of his skin but by the content of his character.” Look it up.
Using the race of a cabinet member as some sort of shield against the dissent is “playing the race card.” You might want to check on how many of those “academics” are non-white. Surprise.
you don’t understand sarcasm. sad.
The axis of evil = USA
ISRAEL
SAUDI ARABIA
The Abrahamic trifector. Just saying.
I like equations. BUSH + OBAMA – Hillary = Trump
No.
Bush + Obama + Hillary = Trump
(Trump – 1)/(Bush + Obama + Hillary ) = 0
America is left holding not a golden egg but an orange plastic bubble.
Thanks for checking my sums.
You’re welcome.
I think you’d probably agree that, if we subtract Hillary, we don’t get Trump.
No!
(Bush + Obama + Hillary) + Trump = Dark State Policy continuity with a twist
Hey Glenn Greewald … Douglas Valentine in his book, THE CIA AS ORGANIZED CRIME: How Illegal Operations Corrupt America, talks about your BS a lot.
Is this sarcasm? I’m not quiet sure the CIA’s madness can be labeled as Glen Greenwald’s B.S. being that there is plenty of factual evidence of the CIA’s interventions across the globe on behalf of empowering themselves and directly benefiting global national corporations, Empires, Banks, Drug Cartels, ETC. Not sure if rape, plunder and pillage along with you know torture is the best way towards a peaceful and balanced world, but maybe thats not in your cards and you like how the world works as of now. In the end you maybe right and it may be best to intern people who have their own minds, question things and in the end find government/corporate criminals to be a main cause of human suffering. We American’s do love our criminals so long as they are rich and powerful.
Most people appreciate facts from real news others just mouth off like you do. Paid troll:Prostitute.
She will be great to put in charge of the interment camps for dissenters here.
Hey yeah. I wonder if those FEMA camps will have wi fi?
” I wonder if those FEMA camps will have wi fi?”
As long as you have family with a Visa card.
I’ll skip the part where I again express my disbelief that America has fallen so far and instead go directly to two amusing developments
One development is that torture is now claimed to be MORE illegal in America. Post the discovery by the press of the secret Bush torture programme, The US government has vowed to follow the current US “Army Field Manual”, with carve-outs, and caveats for the CIA, ticking time bombs and subcontracting out interrogations to other dictatorial nations.
This reminds me of the story of the Wolf and the Three little Pigs. It goes like this:
The first universal laws against torture under any circumstance were made of straw. Bush huffed and he puffed and he blew them down. And Bush tortured people to death. Now the new American laws against torture are made of sticks. No matter how hard Trump huffs and puffs, they say, no CIA agents will break the law. Which brings us to the second hilarious bit.
Several US intelligence officers have promised to resign if they are asked to do anything illegal, if they are asked to torture. Now, leaving aside the small issue of the Trump controlled DOJ being able to define for him what is A) “torture” and B) “illegal”, anecdotal stories of isolated politicians and US spies vowing to not break the law is not reassuring, and for good reason. Trump doesn’t need UNANIMITY among the CIA agents to torture someone. He’s not going to publicly ask someone opposed to breaking the law to break the law. He’s going to ask one of the, evidently many, CIA agents who are more than happy to do their patriotic duty for the homeland.
Because remember, many Americans believe “it works”…at what? It works at “keeping us safe”. Perhaps it works no better than sacrificing virgins on the alter to appease the god Booga-Booga. But that virgin might be a nuclear bomb carrying war-lord in disguise, or in the language of Dick Cheney’s one percent doctrine: “all it takes is one!!!”
When Bush released 500 detainees from Gitmo, it was soon exposed that many of them were AQ leaders that returned to battle. When questioned by the media about it, Cheny explained it away by saying they lied to their interrogators. Flash forward to Cheney’s defense of “enhanced interrogation”.
All hail Booga- Booga and the US MSM whose fictional and non-fictional television programming have sold gullible Americans on the perpetual imminence of vanishingly few terrorist attacks.
Democrats did not vote for Donald Trump. — milton wiltmellow
That’s just not true milton.
Why Democrats in Western Pennsylvania Are Voting Trump
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/why-democrats-in-western-pennsylvania-are-voting-trump/499577/
That story was told here in central Ohio where I live over and over to the media. And I heard it over and over again from people I know who’ve been democrats all their lives.
You can pretend it didn’t exist, you can pretend that these people are ignorant and/or that they don’t clearly see who brings benefit to their lives, but if you and the rest of what’s left of the democratic party continues to just pretend they don’t exist, they will continue to make the dems suffer at the ballot box.
I don’t like quarreling with you because I believe, at heart, you are a good person who does see this and agonizes over it. But I do believe that we have to understand that a gradual slip down the economic slope into penury and poverty is the actual, lived experience of a great part of the country and that the democrats just don’t care enough. What they have done – and yes, they have done some things – just simply is no longer enough. People want the change they were promised by Obama, but they haven’t seen it. Not enough. And that is why many of them chose to vote for Trump. Not all of them. But enough.
Now I have to go take care of my mother, who lives on $1200/month in social security after 70+ years of taking care of other people as an RN. My nephew and his wife live with her and help, but they aren’t up to doing her fiscal stuff or taking care of her medical needs because, in a country that has been ruled by democrats for the last 8 years the only jobs they can find are part-time and pay less than $10 an hour. That’s their reality. I’m not going to blame them for being bitter about democrats. That’s just a bit more cruelty than I can manage to muster against people I’ve loved, and who’ve loved me ever since the day I was born.
Voting for Hillary Clinton was also voting for Trump.
Clinton’s efforts over the years have primarily benefited
craven deviants like Trump. The devious actions of the
DNC and Clinton over the recent decades for the class
of which Trump is a poster boy is why so many of the
most odious republicans supported her over him in the last election.
They knew she could do great damage while pretending to give
a damn about the people whose lives she would help destroy.
Same agenda, different arrogant methods.
Whatever the outcome, Trump would be winning.
Her cabal in the DNC went out of its way to have Trump, among all the other possible Republican candidates, elevated to the position the party’s final candidate, because of their complete confidence in her ability to beat him, a confidence which has borne so much fruit.
Yep. And if America (GOP or Democratic party) wanted to they could address that problem directly, and the problem of “free trade displacement” directly.
They could create massively funded programs of direct subsidization of lost income (or guaranteed jobs program), moving expenses and training AND actually create laws that preference displaced workers for hiring consistent with their new training and locations just as it does with veterans.
Moreover, they could directly intervene with government funded economic development (rather than subsidized public/private or tax credits to private industry) that quickly transitions away from fossil fuels to green energy all over the country. And all the infrastructure that goes along with it. It would create millions of good paying jobs–but the GOP (and to a lesser degree Democratic party) simply does not want to do it.
It is like America has erased its own history and the history of the WPA.
The problem isn’t debt or deficit or any of that other bullshit given that America can control our own currency in a different fashion if it wanted to and instead of allow private sector to create money out of thin air, the government could create it out of thin air and spend it on “public goods” that both create jobs, and provide infrastructure that has massive net multiplier and net benefits to public and private industry.
The problem is lack of political will, and a fundamentally flawed economic ideology. And we will all continue to pay the price, because the GOP/Democratic party’s bipartisan adherence to a morally bankrupt and ultimately financially bankrupting “neoliberal” political economy can by design do nothing be create the Second Gilded Age but without the wager growth for the working class serfs–and that’s by design, and precisely why both parties have done nothing for unions in 45 years, except the Democratic party continues to expect those union members votes, and which they got a rude awakening this election that even a not insignificant part of that group of base voters abandoned them or failed to turn out.
@Pedinska …Thanks for sharing that.
…So the internet IS good for something other than going after Leslie Jones!!!
Pedinska
Nailed it, plus a few of US that were damn sick of a two family dynasty system, both of which saw US as collateral damage to Global elites governance, wealth, power, all lower middle class and poor urban and rural where. Yes, we when the other way, yes we knew a vote for Trump was calling it in danger close, but it was already landing on our position. We got no loyalty to any party left we will flip on a dime, Both parties are a on notice we can sustain or flip the next election and blowup the next legacy. We are the hinge that swings the door, don’t let it hit you in the ass.
Thank you for that, Pedinska. It is eloquent and insightful and moving.
I would quarrel only with your description of the US as a “country that has been ruled by democrats for the last 8 years.” While it is of course true that the executive branch of the national government has been headed by a Democrat the last 8 years, there has never been a time in those years when the GOP did not have substantial power in the legislative and judicial branches. As a partisan Democrat it is my dear hope to see the day when it would be appropriate to colloquially describe our country as being ruled by Democrats.
” a gradual slip down the economic slope into penury and poverty is the actual, lived experience of a great part of the country and that the democrats just don’t care enough”
Spot on, Pedinska. Dry, detached accounts relying on datasets to make the point that “it’s the economy” can’t really convince, on an emotional level, that GDP and debt debt ceilings don’t really matter; what matters is how the conglomeration and idealogical wars at the local, state and federal levels affect real humans on a day-to-day basis.
Personal accounts and seeing how a majority or our fellows are being ill-served by our capitalism-forward economic policies will. For example, I just watched a short video, “The Hidden Insecurity of Older Middle-Class Americans” which shines a light on a demographic that, in my view, is the equivalent or worse than any new housing bubble or trillion-dollar college debt crisis that has been acknowledged to be looming in our future.
I worked for the Census Bureau this last census, and even though I thought I had a good grasp on the condition in mt part of the world, I was still shocked and humbled at the state of most of the low-to-mid income folks.
The good news is that during my work then, the poorest among us treated me as a I would want others to; with kindness, courtesy, and respect, even inviting me into their humble homes in order to do the interviews. In contrast, the white, well-to-do folks were the worst – several even telling me that if they saw me on their property again they would shoot me – and I’m as white as can be, and have “lived among them” all my life.
The dynamic it describes has been building for decades, and it is coming home to roost whether we pay attention to it or not.
a powerful post!
I do believe that hell has frozen over in that I’ve now been twice compelled in a single day to congratulate those with whom I am usually at odds. A very fine comment Pedinska – much heartfelt truth.
If you’ve read my comments, you must realize how badly you misrepresent my comments.
I have never said disaffected Democrats didn’t vote for Trump. Your own explanation from a couple of week ago is quite eloquent. That you and others feel abandoned by the Democrats isn’t really an issue in my mind. In fact, in many ways I agree entirely that Democrats are part of the problem.
I also understand why Republicans voted for Clinton:
This mixing and matching of narratives is quite confusing. Who voted for whom and why?
My issue is with GG’s relentless and variously presented claims that Clinton and the Democrats elected Donald Trump by disaffecting their own voters.
As part of my argument, I’ve repeated said that those who voted Democratic didn’t elect Trump. Equally, those who voted Republican did elect Trump. This is almost but not quite definitional as your objection demonstrates. Obviously there are hundreds of millions if not millions of anecdotal exceptions which would cause voters to vote against type — from fake news to celebrity: gender, attitude, race, and various local issues certainly have as much to do with the outcome as party affiliation.
Yet this relentless interpretation that Clinton’s corruption (or whatever) caused Trump to win are:
a. ideological
b. probably untrue — (the accusations of corruption and the scale of the effect of those accusations on the outcome of the election.)
c. embarrassingly restrictive
d. definitionally absurd (the subject of your citation heading this comment.)
e. counterproductive
f. irrelevant
g. something else (I can’t quite put into words — something hidden among distorting, necessarily conspiratorial, what did you expect, and analogs to the Weimar Republic.)
h. echo chamber effect at the GG Intercept club.
i. misleading.
The people who vote decide the outcome of an election. Yes?
The people who voted for Clinton did not vote for Trump? Yes?
Generally speaking, Democrats vote for Democrats, Republicans vote for Republicans, Yes?
Then is it not accurate to say — IN GENERAL — Democrats did not vote for Trump.
As I reread my own posts, I’m sometimes struck by my poor writing skills I know what I’m trying to say but botch it sometimes. I try to give others the same benefit of the one I claim for myself: Amateur writer.
If I could, I might rephrase my words, “Democrats did not vote for Trump.” This rephrasing might read, “Democrats did not elect Trump” or “Trump does not represent the values of those who traditionally vote Democratic.”
After recently enduring another round of specious, mean-spirited and dimwitted attacks on me — rather than my arguments — I wondered how long I could continue commenting here at The Intercept. I don’t enjoy confrontation, I don’t like to spend my time trying to make a point only to see my words twisted (others’ fault) or misinterpreted (my fault) or simply dismissed as the imaginings of a political partisan. It’s discouraging and frustrating.
Yet I think it’s very important to get it right.
Almost a century ago, a similar election took place. Subsequently many hundreds (or thousands) of books have been written explaining how HItler came to power in Germany. I think the election of Trump is a similar disaster except we don’t have the German’s rationale of “we didn’t know what he would bring.” We know exactly what Trump is brings.
What Trump brings isn’t a repudiation of Democratic politicians’ neglect of coal miners. Nor does he bring a repudiation of the mythical Deep State, nationalism, militarism, and all the delightful accessories of torture, indefinite detention, secrecy, belligerence, and brutality so fatuously ascribed to Clinton and Obama.
Trump brings rightwing ideology and ideologues, Goldman Sachs tax policies and AEI financial policies, admiration for strongmen like Putin, denial of climate change, inevitable civil unrest and the restriction of civil liberties, and a culmination of worst of the Republican agenda advocated since Reagan.
We can all see Trump’s character.
Don’t blame the Democrats for what Trump brings with him.
FFS:
should read:
The Guardian has a wonderful comment section design. You don’t have to worry about formatting. Bold emphasis is not so rude. A reader can follow a thread without having to scroll so much.
wallstreet robbed American and the currency system is strangling America. Americans are owed a major refund with interest and penalties.
Wallstreet thieves party like it’s 1999 all the time. They print money vis-a-vis the fed (which they own) and run a con game on the country with a currency system that operates exactly as a ponzi scheme. This con game has 2 facets, an upside valuation facet for the 1% and a downside facet called circulation for the 99%. And like a casino, these house thieves are forcing us to gamble with our lives to feed the circulation for cash flow from a future valuation that the house thieves determine and after they take their 50% rake.
The American economy is a dead end scam which includes other coffin nails like hocking public property, paying tolls to privateers, and borrowing for life support which surely is an original sin.
As President Trump is a Lutheran he should be aware of all this.
If democrats supporting a sadistic torture agent is
“controversial,”
then you need to face the fact that you are susceptible
to lousy marketing and misleading.
Yes, from both parties same, same.
soon everyone will be ready for a seamless transition between protesting a lack of transgendered toilets, and protesting happy-hour torture on the bigscreen tv at your local beer hall
According to Miller, she was demoted from “head” to “deputy”, which is scarcely a conviction for crimes against humanity. The other problem is that in America, by definition, crimes are committed by underlings, while all of the successes of a department or corporation are solely attributable to its inspired leadership. Thus if a tape was destroyed or “lines were crossed”, this is presumably the fault of someone who has been suitably dealt with. That in turn demonstrates her ability to deal with difficult situations as they arise.
Fortunately, this is no longer our problem. Trump and America in general are now God’s problem, and quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat. This excellent news report will get polite applause, while our people riot to stop a Gamergate troll who dissed Ghostbusters from speaking, and our president wants to defund the university unless he can talk. Who cares for torture, the poor, the rights of permanent residents, or anything? The rights of capitalists to hollow out the banks and cue up the next Depression are sancrosanct, none other. Yet the torture plays a vital role: the torture is what can transform the imminent fracaso in Iran into a broad-based alliance that heals the sectarian rifts of the Middle East while starting the United States on the road of collapse.
It can’t be stopped, it can’t be delayed, and yet, it can be fought. We merely need to redefine our concepts of success in ways that do not depend on the failing sight of America.
++
most well said.
Either we are replying a scenario which has been played out before on a smaller scale (rome) or, the similarities to the smaller scale scenario will be trumped by the ills of the
1. 1913 currency system
2. a depletion of resources (easter island)
3. an energy requirement that destroys the climate stability
4. a population that planet cannot withstand without destroying the food chain.
you see more than i do.
The Romans had a choice, like the U.S. They could have said: hey Spartacus is right, this slave system sucks, we’ll give liberty and the rights of citizenship to all except maybe some criminals and recently surrendered soldiers (they had some leeway to argue in). They could have had a society where labor was valued and therefore inventions like Heron’s steam power would be seen as useful. Instead, they chose to become slaves themselves, one and all, to the dictatorial power of Crassus and all the other famous emperors who drove their once proud republic into madness and ruin.
Well, at least we can say the CIA is equal opportunity when it comes to advancement for the ladies.
American women have proven themselves just as corrupt and evil as American men. What a surprise!
I think it is way past time to dispense with the delusional naive hope that Obama stopped torturing.
On the subject of spying, Obama very sincerely looked the American people in the eye and insisted he was not dragging his nutsack across our face–all the while smiling and intently dragging his nutsack across our face. Why would it be different for torture? Because it upsets you? Because it would be a real lie this time?
You think we are canoeing people but we won’t torture them?
Morality is what we impose on ourselves and our friends. All the rest is punishment.
Well, that’s pretty cynical… warranted I guess. But why single out President Obama? (And in a disgusting way?) It is not like he STARTED the U.S. Torture System. It was made part of our LAW during President “Dubya” Bush’s reign.
Come on, people. Torture and murder and many heinous acts have been part of OUR history since before the U.S. existed — i.e. since Columbus arrived and declared the New World belonged to Christianity and precipitated the genocide of those who already lived there.
Morality is a MYTH as historically, humans have been literally hacking up so-called savages, heathens and non-believers for 2,000 years. And in the lead were… Christians.
I think singling out Obama in a disgusting way is needed so long as every other criminal is given the same treatment. I think pointing out the disgusting behavior of our leaders and people in general is extremely important. Americans tendency for willful blindness especially as it pertains to their chosen party, team, religious beliefs, etc. is a perfectly executed operation of divide and conquer. Until “We the People” see that we are completely un-represented and that like Colossal said have essentially been founded like all empires on rape, plunder and pillage, we will remain under the B.S. false left / right distraction.
America needs a cold hard backhand across its face to wake it up from its extreme need to believe in what amounts to a massive lie. Humanity is under a spell, and belief in some Bull Shit Savior of any kind is proof of our self-delusion. Decentralization, Non-Participation, Non-Compliance in the machine and a Mass De-Funding of the global criminal cartel along with consequences for criminal actions against humanity might be a good start at freeing this planet.
“‘America needs a cold hard backhand across its face to wake it up from its extreme need to believe in what amounts to a massive lie. ”
OR maybe just an enema, why a lot of US voted for Trump, wake-up or clean-up.
Why America votes might be a better ??? It sure doesn’t seem to matter in the end.
@colossal
I don’t disagree. Although getting things wrong since we walked out of the sea is more of a reason to get it right now than an excuse not to change.
The following snippet from Glenn, and my own sympathies, are the reasons I singled out Obama.
“resurrecting Bush-era torture techniques”
There are so many things wrong with that statement–and that’s pretty good considering how few words there are. The best definition of propaganda may be a high ratio of meaning/interpretations to words. That also might be the best definition of art.
I don’t believe that morality is a myth, but it is a purely human construct–although that might be the same thing. And whether aspiration or lies, we are collectively always better in words than in deeds.
—–
An evolutionary path from the other to ourselves and from ourselves to the other humanizes our enemies.
We only forgive our friends so that we can demonize the other better. To create more separation between the in and the out.
We have turned our love and forgiveness into even more hate.
This is why “Look forward not back…” is Mr. Obama’s most significant and enduring legacy.
America may, or may not, survive the Trump administration but it certainly did not survive the Obama administration. Now it shambles along, an empty shell of its former self. A beacon of freedom and liberty? Only with the credulous. So just what is America’s place in the world going forward..?
Perhaps Mr. Trump’s most enduring contribution will be to upend the carefully crafted marketing and put an explicit face on America’s ongoing policies and objectives from the last two decades and more.
This is what happens when people aren’t held accountable. Remember: Obama didn’t prosecute anyone responsible for torture.
There is a 178 page manual available on medieval torture methods complete with explanations effects pictures, the whole 9 yards on the net. It is complete enuf for any amateur to become a real pro in 7 days, self taught. No doubt the CIA already has a copy of this manual already so that they can offer their targets a choice from the menu, carte blanche. Perhaps some cheesecake and a cocktail after the sessions would go a long way to balance things out.
“Would you like a turn on the garroting chair today, suh? Or would you prefer an hour with the cat o’ nine tails?”
Torture has nothing to do about finding out secrets. For that ee have lots of more benign and effective techniques.
Torture is payback for the mischief the Radical Islamic people do. It’s like death penalty except that at the end the Islamist still lives, which I think is very humane.
The fact that many, so called, civilized people have been conditioned to accept torture in their names is unsettling. If not for the fear of the law or retribution, if many Americans thought they could get away with being savages, most of us would indulge ourselves.
I think sociopaths are more abundant than I was willing to believe. It’s just a difference in degree. If Jesus is 1 and Manson is a 100. I think most Americans are around 25 or higher.
So called, morality is not as common as I once thought. You only need look at some of our pill popping, growth hormone, roided up police to know how easy it is for the average citizen to cheer, support or participate in the most heinous crimes. When I look back at the Germans under the Nazi regime, it’s now easy to understand how easy it was to get the majority on board. The Iraq invasion taught me the same lesson as well. It’s easy to create monsters.
Like Germans, our ancestors will look back at the US and see a warmongering, petty, greedy and hegemonic empire. The idea of this country has always been nothing but marketing for the willfully ignorant.
You are not required to argue with me whether torture is good or bad. I respect your opinion, though from where you quote percentages I have no idea.
Personally, I believe our ancestors killed all the Neanderthals and woolly mammoths and made them extinct, so we are quite an improvement. I don’t think we will make the Radical Islamists extinct, even though I strongly suspect it’s their plan to eradicate us. We are just giving them a hard time as they desperately plan all sorts of terrible things.
Torture has nothing to do about finding out secrets. For that ee have lots of more benign and effective techniques.
Torture is payback for the mischief the Radical Islamic people do. It’s like death penalty except that at the end the Islamist still lives, which I think is very humane.
No doubt, the above poster and their ilks will continue to feel proudly super exceptional even when learning that extremist Imams’ speeches were written by a US Saudi-CIA affiliated university.
Well, well Donald,
By helping your Bush Administration war-criminals getting their “dirty laundry” clean, you now have become a war-criminal yourself.
Make Democracy Great Again.
Now would be a good time to see the full copy of the torture report, name names, and lay the graphic evidence upon the public.
It’s Time for a #NationWideStrike!
Boycott with your Dollar$ any Company or CEO who is associated with a company who supports and does not denounce or STRONGLY (not passively) and Publically with repudiation this CEO (Corrupt Elected One) President! Make a list… and double check it twice! America its Time to Take a Stand!
#EndTheCoup
Isn’t it ironic…
America needs a “Regime Change!” NOW!
As Macolm X said, “By any means Necessary!”
As MLK said, “Justice delayed… is Justice Denied!” And “Injustice for some is Injustice for All!”
And as Patrick Henry said, “Give me Liberty or give me Death!
This is not about Democrats or Republicans…
This is about Demons…
Demons are in the White House!
Demons are in the White House!
Demons are in the White House!
Regards,
A Voice Crying in the Wilderness
I agree and like the whole idea of a general strike. But this Freddie deBoer essay did give me pause:
That’s a clear-eyed analysis, sis.
*In any case, I doubt labor strike(s), if you can afford it, would deter the the greatest jobs producer God ever created.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/trump-i-will-be-the-greatest-jobs-creator-that-god-ever-created/2017/01/11/152b5bd6-d827-11e6-a0e6-d502d6751bc8_video.html
I hear the Peace Corp is still looking for a few good … proteges’.
Exactly, and there’s more. Even if we had had clear answers to the what, how, why, where, when questions, we would still have to more-or-less all agree on those answers. The broader (and therefore the more effective) the strike coalition, the more nebulous the platform. Occupy, which didn’t garner a huge portion of the population’s support, still basically had to stand for nothing in order to get the amount of participation they did. I am anti-fascist (and, despite thinking during the campaign that calling Trump “fascist” was an overeaction, it is clear at this point that he is fascist), but I don’t want to strike for a universal basic income.
I never for a second thought Trump would do exactly what he said. Other than FDR, I can’t think of anyone ever doing that.
“A Voice Crying in the Wilderness” is how John the Baptist described himself.
Are you implying Jesus is coming, or that you might be losing your head?
“Demons are in the White House!” you say. I feel a bit obliged to balance this out with some “Deep State” and “the Democrats suck, too” talk, but as that seems a tad unpopular round these parts tonight I’ll just throw in a do-it-yourself joke about exorcizing Trump’s uncivil rites.
FALSE EQUIVALENCY — you hear this all the time …”well, the Dems are bad too”…truth is found in digging lots of details – result obvious: Repub’s have caused the VAST proportion of the trouble in the last 40 years…Dems, not pure, but by far the better record in almost any measure. Pick any topic, really do unbiased research, and STOP telling me ‘they are equal’.
Pick any topic, really do unbiased research, and STOP telling me ‘they are equal’.
It is amazing to see how many people are still desperately invested in insisting that people who no longer have hope that their children will have a better future than the measly existence they’ve managed to scrape out under the persistent hammer of neoliberal/neocon policies, should still be grateful that they haven’t yet been incinerated in nuclear war.
https://trofire.com/2017/02/01/heres-list-democrats-voted-yes-trumps-nominees/
Please, Sir/Maam, may I have another helping of the single-shit sandwich? The double-shit sandwich is just a bit too much for me to digest.
— Senator Diane Feinstein, who voted for the confirmation of Mike Pompeo, torture supporter.
— Mike Pompeo, whom Diane Feinstein (along with 13 other democrats) voted for during his confirmation process.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article115635853.html
Yeah … but it’s probably Turnip lover Glenn Greenwald wot done it. I think they partieed together at Club 51 back in the day.
If I had a hammer
I’d hammer in the morning
I’d hammer in the evening
All over this land
I’d hammer out danger
I’d hammer out a warning
I’d hammer out love between
My brothers and my sisters
All over this land, uh
Read more: Peter, Paul & Mary – If I Had A Hammer Lyrics | MetroLyrics
Sigh, youth is wasted on the young. …You’re in over your head, Maisie. It is contrary to the laws of science that Jesus could ‘come again’ …but how do you know [the Spirit of] Christ has not already come again (like a thief in the night!)?
*and if I may add, Maisie, you’re a little lite in the ‘poot to be dissing the old folks and hippies.
Maisie, you’re a little lite in the ‘poot to be dissing the old folks and hippies.
You’re starting to sound a little like Bro Bill there, darlin’. ;-}
Maisie may be young, but there’s nothing wrong with the volume and flavor of that girl’s poot. Especially since she’s proven beyond all doubt that she’s capable and willing to think for herself. That’s a rarity that deserves support, even – nay, especially – when it’s turned on things we might ourselves cherish. It isn’t just the responsibility of the young to keep quiet, listen and learn you know. (And I know you know….)
Oh, I’m very fond of Maisie! … she’s got a long tongue too :)~
*milt’mellow + gator = Bro bill, spitting image.
The USA is a nasty torture & kill machine with an extravagantly expensive PR department that has fooled American voters and millions of kool-aid drinkers around the world for decades. But now you are outed, Americans, and I am not the only observer who sees this as your evil lesser’s upside.
Yes, quintupling down on stupid economic and foreign policies like a broken record is what will Make America More Greater Again, and that your even dumber-than-before NSC has some extra special magic dust to sprinkle on the empire, but I would like to caution your wisely elected and most glorious leaders against attacking and invading a few more countries in the coming months and years before they learn to finish (lose and leave) what’s already on their bloody plate.
Oh, never mind. Enjoy being treated the same way you are treating Others. You deserve it.
Torture is like prostitution and war. It has existed for centuries and will continue for centuries to come. While I have admiration for those who attempt to advance the moral fiber of mankind, the fact is that human beings have a dark side that will never be eradicated by whatever means.
History shows us that the morality of successful revolutions eventually become corrupt – a never ending pendulum of good and evil and everything in between.
So, why am I here? Women and booze.
So Gina Haspel is Donald Trump’s new Torture Queen … I mean “enhanced interrogation” techniques, at the CIA.
George W. Bush has got nothing on Trump when it comes to waterboarding.
There is a movie called, THE UNTHINKABLE.
I despise torture and see no good reason for it at all, at this time.
The problem with torture is that it turns good people into sadistic bad people and tends to spread like cancer. There is a reason that executioners wear hoods, but it is a half measure.
However you should see the movie.
I saw it. First movie I’ve seen that outs it quite this way. One issue was this man’s ability to withstand such tactics. Also sum plot flubs that reduced effect on me, but I was glad to see the idea explored in any way! I watched “Secrets, Politics, and Torture” a Frontline that tells of this event that G.G. spoke of. Videotape destruction.
I watched it just last week. Late in the evening. I had trouble sleeping. It’s not pat or canned, and does not answer unanswerable questions about human beings.
// __ Pbs Frontline 2015 Secrets Politics and Torture
youtube.com/watch?v=DxtB_-RtcQ8&t=07m30s
youtube.com/watch?v=DxtB_-RtcQ8&t=20m22s … and the morality of it? …
youtube.com/watch?v=DxtB_-RtcQ8&t=30m20s $2.5K as reward for “meritorious behavior” (assassinating someone while in custody)
youtube.com/watch?v=DxtB_-RtcQ8&t=31m00s torture is big business for CIA “psychologist” James Mitchell (a small, few @ssh0l3s company was awarded 81 million dollars)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Elmer_Mitchell
~
C
When is the best time for torture, prime time EST or PST? Is a delayed broadcast for the Phoenix and LA audiences good enough?
There is a large and lucrative market — for the live action, not the canned crap Donald Sutherland’s boy acted out — in the US for this entertainment and data scientists at Fox, ABC, NBC, CBS, and other cable networks should have been delivering constantly updated power-point docs to programming directors since 2001. The market was there long before Trump made it respectable.
Netflix. Samuel L. Jackson in a riveting performance as a government torturer. His Bosnian wife was raped and her entire family, including her children, slaughtered in front of her. She went on a rampage of killing afterward — and loves her husband as well as the new kids they’ve had; she accepts what he does.
But it takes its toll. He is tortured himself, becasue he isn’t a sociopath or sadist. The man they have him torture is also not morally pure, but is also the product of violence he cannot endure or accept. His own violence is understandable, just not morally justified.
This film is about the human condition.
You mean the same Samuel L. Jack-asson
who made the video telling people like me to
“Shut the fuck up!” when we expressed disapproval of
his beloved sadist Obama?
He is a neo-fascist.
The plot(s) of the “unthinkable” movie are so contrived, the movie should have been titled “implausible.”
The problem is indeed human nature, as evidenced by the infamous “prison experiment”
This “psychology 101″ is somehow not used to inform decisions about police (violence, killing, neo-nazi supremacists joining the police) or government sanctioned crimes (war, invasion, spying, surveillance, “black” ops, abduction, torture, drone weapons, etc.)
In short, whether an “obvious” role of authority (police, judge, prison guard) or a symbolic role of benevolent authority (parent, teacher, doctor) even short term “exposure” to power is harmful. No matter the personality or perceived saintliness (such as Mother Theresa and her unchecked sense of superiority and certainty leading to terrible suffering at her insistence … ) the fact of human nature is to be corrupted by power, especially when the individual perpetrators are given a sense of power by authority of law, and being shown they operate above the law (such as having a sitting U.S. President quip “we tortured some folks” and each successive President absolutely refusing to prosecute government servants while viciously punishing individuals outside the government, including protected status individuals such as whistleblowers and refugees…)
Netflix: conditioning and normalization network promoting Americans’ latent nastiness; it serves the same purpose as TV series such as Fox’s “24”, and the Democratic Party.
Morally, the US has nothing over Nazi Germany. They got it away with it (so far) because it has a better public relations department than Goebbels’, and it prolongs its existence by refusing to take on more powerful states than Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Panama City, El Salvador, Grenada, etc… But Trump has shown the world what Americans really are. Who knows what’s next.
Samuel L. Jackson: patriotic whore getting paid to portray “understandable torture” to those who already condone it, or collaborate with it, like you.
Yes, this is outrageous. But even more outrageous is the academic tenure of the criminal John Yoo at UC Berkeley: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_Memos
https://www.law.berkeley.edu/our-faculty/faculty-profiles/john-yoo/
A fine article Glenn – letting the facts speak for themselves has left me speechless (much to delight of your biggest fans).
Are you Marxist Karl, or deranged Trumpkin Karl who thinks Glenn Greenwald doesn’t really comment as Glenn Greenwald? There are now two Karls here, and I recently was confused when I assumed the former was the latter, even tho the content made no sense for Trumpkin Karl (not that that Karl ever makes sense, but you know what I mean).
The praise most cherished is that which comes from your most ardent critics. Yet you cannot help but poison this moment for Glenn in sick service to your ever-gnawing parasitic need to be cast in the same light as him. This response is really quite pathetic and wholly selfish Mona. Is it now clear who has humbly and sincerely offered praise when it is deserved?
Ok, you’re the deranged Trumpkin Karl who thinks Glenn Greenwald doesn’t really comment as Glenn Greenwald. The other one is reasonable and lucid. Good to clear that up.
Your reply to Karl — who was thanking Glenn’s “fine article” — just shows how pathetic you really are -Mona- (What’s up the the dashes, BTW? Maybe you mentioned it… I don’t spend 10 hours a day everyday reading the comments here…)
Maybe you are under the influence of other comments by Karl. But this one deserves no such despicableness.
How could you possibly think that “A fine article Glenn – letting the facts speak for themselves…” does not make sense?
Your insane hatred of yourself is showing. You’ll never understand that. You’ll never stop your asinine diatribes. You’ll never learn. You’ll stew in your hateful messy place in front of your computer for the next ten years of doing nothing but making pitiful comments on blogs, denigrating other commentors, defending that/those which do not need your defense so sick your’s is.
You’ll never get it.
P.S. I never come back to read replies to my comments. So go knock yourself out in coming up with your “take down” of my words. You’ll feel fine with the thought: “She who posts last wins.” But you’ve been a loser since day one. You just cannot ever see yourself from the point of view of others. And that’s tragic.
I agree with others that Obama is to blame for being too weak to hold our war criminals accountable. It wasn’t hard to predict that the traitors would resurface and continue to infect our nation.
i don’t think he was too weak, i think he didn’t want to. obama’s wars were less damaging to the us (syria and the ukraine could have spiralled out of control
) and he preferred surgical strikes–we might not have known who we were blowing up, but we knew where the drone would land–to land wars, but he was a war criminal himself. it’s like sharks refraining from eating lawyers out of professional courtesy.
Qui Tam–perfect. All the millions of words that have been written, trying to excuse Obusha’s duplicity, and you nail it in 2 sentences.
Parasites if not eradicated will move from host to host. It appears that Obama made a choice not to inocculate. The evidence would suggest that continuity was enviatable regardless of let’s say Bush,Clinton,Bush,Obama,Trump or Clinton. Perhaps Kennedy found out what looking for a vaccine entails. If the all mighty white heterosexual male in the sky were real or if alternative facts didn’t exists, Haspel would be elected to prison laundry duty not deputy director.
Parasites if not eradicated will move from host to host. It appears that Obama made a choice not to inocculate. The evidence would suggest that continuity was enviatable regardless of let’s say Bush,Clinton,Bush,Obama,Trump or Clinton. Perhaps Kennedy found out what looking for a vaccine entails. If the all mighty white heterosexual male in the sky were real or if alternative facts didn’t exists, Haspel would be elected to prison laundry duty not deputy director.
An idea for a new American reality TV show. Turn the White House into a Black Site and every week we all get to watch a government official responsible for torture get a little dose of their own medicine.
Take a look – already on the small screen, Called Sean Spicer.
6666 New York Win 4 Lottery Pick on Trump’s inauguration predicted by Last Prophet – UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE
23 Dec 2016
2016 and 3 weeks beyond: perfect 6666 matrix after 6 failed Easter Sundays
Obama Bin Laden FINAL COUNTDOWN: Illuminati Grand Master will resurrect the dead
The original date for the act “Osama resurrects” was Easter Sunday. It had to be postponed SIX times, three of them already after the act “missing Boeing 777″.
In other words: in 2014 it was postponed only weeks or days before the deadline.
Although none of this has yet really questioned the Grand Master’s power to resurrect the dead, he only has 9 days to at least take advantage of the completed 6666 matrix constellation:
3 alternative dates for the resurrection of Obama Bin Laden in Jerusalem, crucified to the missing Boeing 777:
– still in 2016, the year of the perfect 3rd dimensional 666 matrix
– Jan 21, 2017: the day for this script line: billionaire Trump, president elect, 70 years 7 months and 7 days the day of his inauguration, same day that marks 6666 weeks since Hitler’s birthday.
– Easter Sunday 2017 (in this case martial law will be declared BEFORE Jan 21, alias Obama’s presidency will be extended to a third and short term),
Note: Jan 21, 2017 could be also seen as the cherry on top of the cake, alias on top of the paradoxically also perfect 4th dimensional 6666 matrix that the year 2016 also stands for.
The perfect 666+6 matrix for the year 2016:
666 6
666 6
666 6
666 X
How it’s built:
666 + 666 + 666 (a third dimensional matrix) + 6 + 6 + 6 (fourth row) = 2016
Zeroes don’t count in numerology, so 2016 = 216 = 6 * 6 * 6 (fourth column)
As for X, the final 6, it’s a paradox: fourth dimensional perfection achieved by the 6 failed Easter Sundays,
All in
http://big-bang-now.blogspot.com/2016/12/final-countdown-perfect-6666-matrix-6.html
@swisscheese
In order to establish the your correct placement relative to the “Zionist” label,” I would need your answer to this question from this afternoon that remains unanswered in an older thread:
If I am wrong , and you are not a Zionist, I will say so. But it would be necessary to examine an answer to that question before I decided.
I love tests.
Do you?
Here’s one you might enjoy.
Just to get you started, the answer to the first question is #4 — RED.
Let’s establish your correct placement. It’s what caring people do for those less knowledgeable than themselves. Really, there’s no hidden agenda or subtext here. Just a quick, straightforward quiz.
I just trying to be helpful too.
Why?
Because it matters.
What? swisscheese has been insisting I’m wrong when I say he’s a Zionist– not just insisting, but actually complaining to the moderators, or whatever they are called here — if I say he is. Indeed, he’s so angry about my position on him and Zionism he’s been campaigning in comments to have all other commenters contact the Intercept staff to complain about me (which, amusingly, some have), including new, standalone posts where it is totally off topic. So, quite obviously he takes this rather seriously — a wackjob he quite likely is, but still, this is of vital importance to him.
Why you have a problem with my seeking to get to the bottom of his actual belief on a matter that sends him into fits of shrieking to the TI staff, I don’t know.
I’m pretty certain he is, in fact, a Zionist, but if he doesn’t answer salient questions that would resolve the matter, it can’t be known one way or the other.
What, no photo of our dear, so-beautiful-she-can-torture-with-flair-and-elan, to go along with her recent, significant promotion? Interesting as well, it’s hard to find a picture of her with at least the first 3 Go-Ogle searches just now… Who’s she working for, exactly? Afraid she might be the target of… too much love?
politicians think its better for chronic pain sufferers to suffer in agony than risk someone possibly becoming addicted to their medication. good luck getting any kind of treatment or even anything diagnostically done to see if youre broken and need surgery. better for us to suffer. you want to talk about torture? how many americans are being tortured by American policies?
Personally, I’m glad Greenwald criticizes Trump in an accurate but not hysterical manner, saving his most intense scorn for the system of cultural, media and political stupidity that ludicrously not only made Trump but also Hillary Clinton a viable contender for the presidency.
Trump is a threat on many levels, but dishonest confirmation bias, apathy, and emotional inability and unwillingness to see a bigger picture are the moronic traits of the nation as a whole that not only produced Trump’s ascension but are further destroying possibilities for constructive change even now.
I need to stop reading your comments, as they are merely confirming most of my biases.
You’re simply unhinged.
Torture or confirmation bias … which is a crime against humanity?
Torture or apathy … which is a crime against humanity?
Torture or a moronic … nation? Which is a crime against humanity?
I guess when you’re trying to leap the bar of “blame-anti-torture-advocates-for-electing-a-torture-advocate” you need a running start.
What next? Blaming Clinton voters for electing Trump?
Talk about tortured logic…
You don’t get to call me unhinged and get away with it, you partisan twit.
Your dressing-down will take the form of a simple statement:
I didn’t compare torture with anything; moreover, Obama and Clinton and the rest of the Democrats have irresponsibly excused the crime against humanity of torture, resulting in (and thus making them partly and irredeemably responsible for) precisely this nonsense, and Obama has in fact greenlighted the torture of Chelsea Manning as well as several at Gitmo (in the form of brutal force-feeding) – so there is no high ground to be taken by the moral reprobates you stupidly still support.
Now instead of making asinine comments from an evidently severely compromised (if pompously verbose) attempt at intellectuality, go soak your butt-inserted head by sitting in a bathtub full of water.
Magnificent!
Yet I just did exactly that.
I called you unhinged.
Should I call you unhinged again because your response sounds more like a cat chasing a laser light than a human being who cares about those held captive and tortured by an authoritarian State?
Yes, Obama didn’t prosecute Cheney. He should have prosecuted Cheney, Bush, Bybee, Yoo, Rodriguez and anyone else responsible for implementing the US torture regime.
But he didn’t, probably because, like Chamberlain in Munich, he had other major considerations like health care and ending the occupation of Iraq. I don’t know this is so, but I can understand that a black man cannot enter the US presidency and declare war on government.
Here’s what Feinstein said (I assume being a Democrat, you hold her equally responsible):
You may not like Obama’s tepid response in 2009. I don’t like it a bit either.
Being hinged, I can discriminate.
But here’s what Trump said — on the campaign trail while senators of one party fought the senators of another party to simply release the facts to the American people.
Your unhinged rant about confirmation bias, apathy and a moronic nation simply hides the fact that some people are trying to put a stop to torture and some people want more of it.
And generally you can tell one from the other by their party affiliation. Sure, there are a couple of exceptions, but your unhinged rants seeks to diminish the difference rather than point out the explicit words, the official actions, and the clear meaning of one group of people versus another.
The worst of it though isn’t mixing people who advocate torture with people who explicitly repudiate it and calling them exactly the same … that’s just unhinged. The worst of it is your attempt to turn a cruel and inhuman treatment of REAL PEOPLE into an ideological abstraction that diminishes the crime of torture as if it’s only a symptom of a larger problem — this sort of childish “it’s all gone to shit, everyone is guilty, let’s all fall down.”
As we saw recently with the refugee ban, real people are really affected when a moron like Trump gets power.
Equating Trump with Obama is like throwing shit at the wall. It does no good for anyone except yourself, it makes a mess, and allows you to shout and throw more shit at those of us pointing out there’s a more proper place for it.
You make the problem worse by diffusing it into a juvenile ideology of radical something or other.
That’s what I mean by “unhinged.”
I said you wouldn’t get away with calling me unhinged, and you did not, as I told you off and ridiculed your partisan foppery.
You make excuses for the Democrats excusing torture, which actually makes you a torture apologist. And your excuses for the Democrats’ inexcusable forgiveness are as pathetic as you are.
And your opinion of my equating Obama’s (and Clinton’s) evil with Trump is not in the least diminished by your lame attempts at boring the world with sophistry and haphazard nonsense. All you’ve accomplished is fleshing out my substantial claim that you’re a pompous ass who can’t see the bigger picture (presumably because your inflated ego is in the way).
Glen Ford of the Black Agenda Report described Democrats (in this case Obama) as not simply the lesser evil but realistically the More Effective Evil because his corporatism, militarism and imperialism (all of which had very real deleterious effects on very real people) met with very little resistance, whereas outspoken Republicans’ similarly offensive agendas are resisted far more by not just the titular “left” and minority groups but also by much of the mainstream – a phenomenon seen now with the GOP’s latest incarnation of Trump.
So, basically, shut your pie-hole and go to bed dreaming of Hillary; just don’t mouth off at me again with your ill-thought out verbiage and obviously partisan hysterics.
That tracks what my racist mother said in ’08 when “explaining” why I shouldn’t vote for Obama: “Whites won’t listen to him. So, he can’t govern effectively.”
How sick to see a Dem hack echo it. Obama could have kept many of his promises had he the will; that he didn’t is on him. Black or white.
Obama didn’t prosecute Cheney/Rumsfeld/Brennan/Yoo etc.etc.etc. , because he intended to use, and then did use, torture himself, and he didn’t want to run the risk of legal blowback for those selfsame crimes against humanity. As to healthcare, he certainly had concerns deep enough for the health and nutrition of his Guantanamo detainees, for him to demand “feeding” via tubes rammed through nose and down throat, or into rectum. Not to mention the months the deep and abiding care visited by his regime on Chelsea Manning, before the final incarceration. Such care. Such concerns. And I’m to gather from your writing above, that the occupation of Iraq was ended under Obama, pursuant to his deep concern over the matter. I’m utterly delighted. Perhaps he should get a Nobel prize.
“but I can understand that a black man cannot enter the US presidency and declare war on government.”
He can and will, however, declare war on his own people, constitution, and millions of people in the fly-over nations, and receive ongoing accolades from his “Liberal” supporters for every aspect of these holy wars.
“As we saw recently with the refugee ban, real people are really affected when a moron like Trump gets power.”
When they’re turned into refugees, due to his predecessor’s murderous fomenting of war and innumerable bombing and drone raids, and now appallingly, denied entry as refugees, all of a sudden, voluminous outpourings of sympathy and righteous fury, replete with little pink hats. But when they were merely being slaughtered, by Obama/Clinton/Power et al. bombs, drones, and doors kicked in, the silence howled in the American streets.
“The worst of it is your attempt to turn a cruel and inhuman treatment of REAL PEOPLE into an ideological abstraction that diminishes the crime of torture…”
Ideological abstraction that diminishes…?
As differentiated, for instance, from the high minded seriousness, empathy, gravitas, decorum, concern, and reverence for human life and dignity exhibited in “we tortured some folks…” eh?
With that I totally agree, and long have. My only reservation about focusing on that at this moment, is that Trump is actually POTUS. The man is an unstable authoritarian racist.
I’m white and straight. As a vocal leftist who has long real life and email affiliation with people like Greenwald, I’m almost certainly on some “lists.” I’m at not insignificant risk. But not anything like blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, LGBTs and immigrants. And I’m past reproductive age, so attacks on abortion/contraception rights cannot directly affect me.
It’s a little too glib, by half, to just discount the extent to which Trump & Co. are are a far worse immediate threat to those vulnerable populations than neoliberals are. And, if Trump decides not to obey courts, we have a literal suspension of all rule of law, a dictatorship. This is a valid and serious concern.
I’m not discounting anything, certainly not Trump’s offensiveness. Nothing I say diminishes the withering takedowns he deserves – my intention is entirely regarding balance and clarity which gets lost in the hysteria and partisan hate that inevitably accompanies much of the vitriol directed at him.
I simply admire and share what appears so far to be Greenwald’s not getting so carried away with attacking Trump that the context of national stupidity and endemic bipartisan establishment corruption is lost in the heat of the moment.
I think both criticisms can co-exist, but I see a too-huge tendency on the part of many to rush headlong into criticism of the right-wing without acknowledging the devastating ineffectiveness of the Democrats at being truly adversarial in much beyond carefully chosen, media-broadcast words.
Perhaps whenever I criticize the corrupt system itself in the hope of generating some perspective I should always add “Oh, and I hate Trump, too!” yet this reminds me of Greenwald’s Twitter admonition to his readers that criticism of Clinton does not equal support for her opponent.
Maisie my concern is distilled in the your very use of word “offensiveness.” If that man were merely “offensive,” we could largely ignore him. He is President of the United States and far more than just offensive. Him, and the many rancid people in his cabinet and advisory staff. He is extremely and immediately dangerous to vulnerable people. Most especially if he decides not to obey the third branch of government.
How many Muslims or African-Americans do you know who think we should just chill a bit about Trump?
You’re trying to tell me what words to use?
As I’ve made very clear in my posts I find everything about the corrupt establishment – all of it, from the grotesque propaganda to the Deep State, inclusive of institutionalized racism, profiling, unconstitutional surveillance, corporatism and warmongering – extremely dangerous and repellent, and in that context I am declaring that Trump is particularly offensive.
I stand by this statement. I don’t write to please anyone, and I say what I mean.
M & M: I don’t think you two really have a major, substantive disagreement here. If you did, it should cause cognitive dissonance* to agree with both of you simultaneously, and it doesn’t.
I think you should both get together with elwood and beat up wiltmellow some more. ;^)
*One of our new contributors accused me of cognitive dissonance recently, in a really goofy misuse of the term, so I had to toss it in here. My use is only sort of correct, but I’m giving myself a pass.
Off to read light fiction to put myself to sleep. Back to tilt at windmills, yet again, tomorrow. One expects.
At least the brownshirts didn’t send their daughters and wives, sisters and grandmothers to “beat up” their political opponents.
You fit like a hard-knuckled glove with Trump.
That’s just what this site needs.
More mob violence.
Now you’re just being unreasonable. You, Maisie, have agency, and I believe you when you declare: “I say what I mean.”
So, when you declare only that Trump is “offensive” the objections I set forth above seem appropriate. Trump is a leap well beyond the usual concerns about the “Deep State.” At least for those in vulnerable populations and their allies.
You think I’m being unreasonable, and I think you’re being petty and nitpicking.
I find the Deep State itself and its malevolent influence over much of the world and several consecutive governments far more horrific and ruinous than any single administration, including this one, but this does not diminish how offensive I consider Trump to be.
Bravo!
Truly, no sarcasm.
Good for you.
That’s the main thing Maisie’s more unhinged off-telling me hides.
Real people really get hurt. Elections have consequences, and policies have consequences. If someone voted for Trump because they dislike Clinton so intensely, these ordinary people themselves are far more likely to be hurt by their vote than either of the two principles in the campaign. Does anyone here think that the Germans shouting “Heil Hitler” would have been far less enthusiastic and far less hostile toward Hitler’s scapegoats had they been able to see the future?
I think so.
Those who jabber about how terrible Obama is seem always to neglect to mention the positive actions he took to overturn and prevent the Bush policies of torture.
Here’s an Al Jazeera report.
The entire article presents a good synopsis — without the hyperbole, the hostility, or the very common political partisanship disguised as impartiality often displayed on this site.
The time to decry Trump was before he took office for exactly the same reasons as now. There is one thing positive I can say about Trump. He is exactly the man he says he is. We know what’s coming.
He means to hurt those people who don’t submit — especially minorities and Muslims. And even when they do submit for that is the logic of scapegoating. The scapegoats must be seen as less than human else the master is a monster.
Blaming Obama, Clinton and the Democrats only reinforces and advances Trump’s malevolent agenda.
Absolve those Democrats! Attaboy, Milton!
Politicians differ, in that some say the right words –
God forbid we realize they’re all a bunch of turds!
You’re mistaking your opinion of my words for fact, Mona. At no point have I denied he’s a singular menace; of course, I’d say the same thing about Obama and “We came, we saw, he died” Clinton had she won. And George W. Bush. They’re all varying degrees of reprehensible, and all willing servants of the Deep State you love hearing about.
Nope. No reasonable person thinks or would say Trump is merely “offensive.” Maybe you didn’t mean to do that.
Bu then, you go on:
Now ask almost any Muslim- or African-American. The vast, vast majority, including those writing here, would put Donald Trump in a “singular” category where he really was that. (A “singular” literally means the only one of the particular type.) Why do you think that is?
Well, then here is your misunderstanding, which seems increasingly willful:
I never said he was “merely” anything, you silly goose.
“Singular” indeed means unique. Each politician I mentioned is uniquely offensive, and of course some are more overtly so than others; however some are more effectively deleterious because of a lack of common or respectable resistance.
But they represent a corrupt establishment far more dangerous than their individual contributions, and it is that to which I draw attention, regardless of your “mere” opinion.
No. NO. N*O*
Donald Trump/his administration is sui generis. Miles and valleys beyond Obama or Hillary. To the vulnerable populations, even foreign, he is more dangerous than them. (He has the nuclear launch codes, which the neoliberals, from rational self-interest, would know not to use, as well as playing with other similar risks.)
Again, ask a few Muslim- or African-Americans, many of whom are social democrats, whether Trump is not a whole higher level of bad. Or is their’s also just dismissable “opinion?”
But I do like this:
I’ve been given to understand by swisscheese that that is an indecent thing to write. But I do it anyway from time to time.
I didn’t know ‘silly goose’ was indecent… But I never said “merely,” and I can’t stand it when people say I said something that I didn’t.
It isn’t profitable to keep going back and forth when neither of us seem to be adding anything new to our insistences, and I can’t stay up all night anyway as I have to work in about 8 hours. Suffice it to say I certainly didn’t mean to say your opinion should be “dismissed” out of hand, just that it is an opinion and not a fact that my language should be stronger, and my words can quite easily be regarded as more comprehensive than you believe them currently to be.
I would definitely expect some groups to find Trump “a whole higher level of bad,” just as I found Obama to be particularly dreadful and loathsome in what Glen Ford described as his “more effective evil” beneath the smooth persona and public love. His entrenchment of establishment corruption and surveillance has been phenomenal and planet-threatening. Also, I don’t think Trump is more likely to start a nuclear war than Clinton was – in fact I think she was the greater threat in that regard. But indeed Trump is uniquely…bad.
Okay, I’ll just leave it there.
what the world needs now is more Venn diagrams.
Nice discussion, M&M (I like that, h/t to DS) on what I’ll call “much ado about…everything.” Thanks for sharing, you silly geese. ;-)
George Bush .. “I know that humans and fish can coexist peacefully.”
Donald Trump ..”I have the best words.”
Even the blind could see this coming .. things don’t go well when you have an idiot for President.
@Nate
This is false. Glenn tells the truth in his public writing on public topics, no matter what. (I won’t say he “never lies,” because all humans do — including everyone reading this.)
The greatest duty that he had, he met: He set forth in crystal clear fact and logical detail the dangerous game the DNC and Democratic establishment were playing in backing Hillary Clinton. And not just backing him, mind you, but actively promoting him to the media because they assumed he’d be one of the easiest to beat in the GOP field. (“Pie Piper” strategy.) Utterly ignoring, of course, Hillary’s wide and deep negative polling and unpopularity and insisting they had a great strategy and it was all covered (I believed that).
basically, the Dems were simultaneously telling us that we had to vote for HRC, but that really Trump couldn’t win. Glenn called their attention to what a great risk that was, and they not only ignored it, they redoubled their efforts to push Hillary Clinton.
These geniuses thought the smart thing to do to an already demoralized base of progressive Bernie supporters — whose votes they absolutely had ot have — was to choose conservative Democrat (long pro-life record)Tim fucking Kaine as running mate. That is, they told us to get fucked.
No. This is all the Democrat’s fault. Glenn did no more than believe the polls and what nearly every single other expert was saying.
Moreover, thank god he did do the reporting that he did, because now we have the evidence of how rancid the Democratic establishment is to help coerce them into gutting the rot that has reduced the whole party to a smoking pile of rubble — at the federal, state and municipal levels. (Or did Glenn cause that, too?)
If you want eight years of Trump and the Dems to not do well, or not as well as they could, in the mid-terms, don’t reform. Stay GOP Lite. Or, act on what Glenn and other have revealed about the corrosive rot in the DNC and jettison it.
The choice remains yours, but the risks are everyone’s.
Either you’re one of the dumbest liars on earth or you’re just plain bonkers.
Democrats did not vote for Donald Trump.
Republicans did vote for Donald Trump.
Are you afflicted with some sort of Stockholm syndrome or just plain stupid?
Truly, I’m curious.
Democrats both shit on the people who had to vote for HRC in sufficient numbers if she was to win, and they insisted on the most unpopular Democratic candidate in history rather than one of the most popular.
Democrats are responsible for this debacle. Fail to learn this lesson, and Republicans will continue to wipe the slate at the federal, state and municipal levels, as they have been.
Name one Democrat who shit on one person. Show the picture or cite the source.
No?
This is what happens when you cannot distinguish figurative from real. You throw abstractions like confetti. You don’t reveal, inform, entertain, communicate or persuade. You simply jabber.
And because you don’t think about your jabbering, the words and metaphors your use when you jabber, you can even blame the people who voted for Clinton for electing Trump.
Do you even realize how nonsensical this is?
If somebody didn’t vote for Clinton, your explanation for their not voting for Clinton is completely and totally imaginary. It is a political construct, a fiction, an ideology designed to project your feelings upon tens of millions of human beings whom you don’t know and can’t know.
You could just as accurately say that God compelled Trump’s election because She wanted to punish Clinton for shitting on people. Why not? One explanation is as good as another.
But if your want the truth, count the votes.
What you don’t get to do is count a vote for Trump as a vote for Clinton.
If you participate or follow social media (Twitter, Facebook) this is completely self-evident. The term “BernieBros” was concocted as a smear against those Democrats and left-leaning sols who disagreed with Hillary at all on policy issues.
It created such animus that many who would have held their nose and voted for Hillary did not; either not voting at all, voting third party, or even voting for Trump.
Superb!!!!
So much respect for Glen and the staff of The Intercept. Keep shining the light on the criminal acts. One day we’ll have an ethical and moral government that will prosecute the crimes against our better nature. Until then we need you all to keep up REAL journalism and challenge the status quo regardless of who occupies office. Kudos!!!
That would be nice. Doesn’t seem likely with Democrats or Republicans.
“One day we’ll have an ethical and moral government that will prosecute the crimes against our better nature.”
But not before an ocean of blood and misery is loosed on the world.
The modern day American fascists have one thing that the fascists of previous generations did not. Today’s jackboots have no fear of opposition.
They will start wars and not even give a reason for them, all the while stoking up their feral base to attack anyone who opposes their actions.
They will destroy regulations and plunge us all into chaos just because it will benefit their bottom line, and they won’t even try to justify it.
They will continue to lie and smile about it because they know that the “alternate” media they control will push their narrative relentlessly. Facts be damned.
They will divide the electorate and destroy the country all in the name of political expediency, and laugh it all off as the nation state crumbles into dust.
There really is one way to stop them, and I’m sorry to say, we DON’T have the will to take that step, and will continue to lack that will until it’s too late.
Don’t worry, the Democrats will save us! After all, Dianne Feinstein’s Torture Report called for prosecution of torturers – oh wait, no it didn’t. And Obama called for prosecution to the fullest extent of the – oh wait, he excused it, making this inevitable at some point. Well, certainly Hillary Clinton has demanded prosecutions of Bush era torturers, and for Obama’s force-feeding at Gitmo, and the torture of Chelsea Manning – oh wait, no she hasn’t. As a matter of fact not a single politician from either major Party has called for torture prosecution… Isn’t that weird? It’s like they all really want this option, with the Democrats as usual paying mere lip service to the politically correct way of discussing bad behavior.
Damn, it’s good theater. Obama: the cool president. Trump: the president we love to hate. Both excusing the same corruptions, each with a different accent. Note how Trump’s murder of an Awlaki child is so much worse than Obama’s – oh, how we lap it all up…
This sort of thing wouldn’t happen if those ordering American torture were jailed. Oh, there I go, saying the obvious. I should know by now it isn’t welcome, for we’ve just GOTTA takes sides, we’ve just GOTTA…
Yes. You might even say the D’s and R’s are playing us with “good cop/bad cop.”
I changed my voter registration from Democrat to Green over 10 years ago, and today I received in the mail a letter from the Democratic Party National Headquarters, addressed to “Dear Democrat” and signed by Nancy Pelosi, featuring references to how awful Trump is. It was a solicitation for money along with a fake push-poll type survey (with questions in the style of which is your highest priority: truth, justice, or the American way?). I see they continue to learn nothing, still hope most people are too stupid to see through them, and see Trump as a fantastic opportunity to trawl the mailing list of D’s and non-D’s alike for support. They’ve already started their 2020 campaign strategy, which will once again be, “what you gonna do? vote for Trump?” This is almost hilarious. They sent a postage paid envelope, so I think I must send them something back. I can’t decide which is my highest priority for Democrats though – go fuck yourselves? Or fire Nancy Pelosi?
awesome. and thank you! go to hell d and r. indi all the way
My name is Katrina Patton and I am sending information that could potentially save the lives of myself and my family. If there was ever a story about corruption and illegal use of power by people in the City of Chicago that needs to be told. I have proof that there is widespread corruption that is CURRENTLY occurring in our city and against innocent victims. I have tried to contact many people for help using multiple contact methods but for some of you, YOUR OFFICE AND FRONT LINE STAFF ARE APART OF THE “GATE KEEPERS” are preventing me from getting access to the people who can HELP me and my family !!! On Monday, January 23, 2017 after I participated in the Women’s Day March in Chicago to try and report what i am telling you, my employer forced me to take a leave of absence…….. My cell # is 331-229-2783 PLEASE CALL UNTIL YOU GET ME.
But, TORTURE DOES WORK. It really does. It is a very efficient tool.
…But efficient for what, this is the question you should all ask. Does torture works to gather intelligence that saves lives? Of course not.
On the other hand, torture is very good at gathering false information that a politician can use to destroy anyone they don’t like. Or buy expensive kits that happen to be sold by their mates. Or even create false alert that keeps people quiet, out of fear of some incoming attack.
Yep, torture does really work.
This must be some sort of a mistake.
Only the Deep State run by remorseless Clinton thugs like Brennan would appoint someone like this. Yet you say Brennan demoted her.
I don’t get it.
How could that nice Mr. Trump betray his campaign promises like this?
I’m shocked.
For what it’s worth,… I don’t agree with Trump’s stance on “torture.” Burning witches at the stake and drowning witches didn’t make witches confess.
(I meant that to be funny. If you are wondering. I’m hoping that he is merely creating ‘image’-type deterrent to those who might try something stupid.)
https://www.cia.gov/news-information/press-releases-statements/2017-press-releases-statements/gina-haspel-selected-to-be-deputy-director-of-cia.html
A sampling of the glowing remarks, which aren’t a surprise:
James Clapper, former Director of National Intelligence: “I am very pleased to learn of Director Pompeo’s selection of Gina Haspel as Deputy Director. It speaks well of him for picking a seasoned veteran of the Agency who is widely and deeply respected by the workforce as well as those outside the Agency. She has the broad-gauged experience from both foreign and domestic assignments to serve as the right-arm for Director Pompeo. I am particularly gratified, since she has also been a strong proponent for integration, not only within CIA, but across the Intelligence Community.”
Michael Hayden, former CIA Director: “What a wonderful choice for Deputy Director, one that will be celebrated by current and former Agency officers alike. Ms. Haspel has responded with dignity, professionalism and honor to everything the Agency and nation have asked her to do. I am sure that she will be for Director Pompeo what Steve Kappes was for me — a trusted friend, lieutenant and guide to the sometimes opaque corridors of American espionage.”
(We have no way to go but further down, I’m afraid. Thanks for the informative article, Glenn.)
“She was undercover and agency asked us not to print her name.”
We seen over and over that we can’t keep playing catch-up with psychopaths.
At some point journalists have to decide earlier on what is and what is not in the public’s best interest. Will they get it wrong sometimes? Sure. But waiting around is akin to the incrementalism policies of the neoliberals, in that when you have so many bad actors and corresponding acts, and you don’t put the brakes on them earlier rather than later, we end up with wars based on lies and misinformation, and ultimately leaders like Trump and the sycophants who follow him, who treat lies and misinformation as gospel.
Time to stop honoring most of these requests.
Americans were already the most disliked nation in general, nowadays it is 10 times worse. Terribly, it appears to be a downward spiral.
How about a photograph of the lovely lady, Glenn. As I live in the lesser Washington DC area, there is always the chance of my encountering her, and I would like to be forewarned so I can take have the appropriate inoculations afterwards.
I just checked Google image search for you, Jeff. I couldn’t find a photo of dear Gina, unless those shots of Countess Dracula that keep popping up are really of her.
If you go anywhere near Langley, wearing a garland of garlic might be advisable.
Garlic. right. Spare us moron. What we need is 1mil ARMED citizens ready to hang these scum with extreme prejudice. Comprende?
I’m afraid I’m a little old and battered for joining lynch mobs or militias.
If you think that million-citizen armed rebellion can and should be organized, why not start organizing?
hence all the political and media attempts and successes at disarming more americans and demonizing guns at every single turn. handguns, knives, or vehicles used. ban so called assault rifles. we have already lost
it certainly flows trippingly off the tongue
Ed Abbey was interviewed after publication of The Monkey Wrench Gang, which shocked and outraged certain elements of American society.
He was asked if he was really advocating blowing up a dam (Glen Canyon). He answered, “No, [but] if someone else wanted to do it, I’d be there holding a flashlight.”
think 1mil unarmed should be enough. assuming any show. don’t think operation American spring went anywhere
Here’s the latest pic of her. She’s a crafty one.
https://www.google.com/search?q=gina+Haspel+2014&biw=1440&bih=725&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUtpiYvfLRAhXhrVQKHY1gA0YQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=Trump&imgrc=Q794EufWevenjM:
Any chance other govts could hold the Trump administration actors criminally liable if the need arises? And do chances improve if Trump continues to isolate America from the other western democracies?
quote”Any chance other govts could hold the Trump administration actors criminally liable if the need arises?”
The real answer lies in the aftermath of a war. Think Nuremberg. Winner takes all. Including prosecuting the enemy. Unfortunately, the US is the worlds foremost Legal Imperialism, which in essence means ..if you got the might, you can legalize the right to do anything.. Comprende?
In this case.. torture. The Bush admin “tried” to legalize torture. They failed. And rightfully so. It didn’t matter. Unfortunately, lot’s of human beings were tortured with impunity, some even were murdered by the CIA. Also unfortunately,..there is NO POWER ON EARTH that can force USG accountability. And therein lies the truth. The reality is this. The people who have wielded the power of the USG for the last 70 years are.. war criminals. Period. EVERY SINGLE ADMINISTRATION SINCE TRUMAN. Welcome to Murika. Land of the stupid, home of the ignorant. May god have mercy on those who have turned this country into a sadistic, barbarian, bloodthirsty monstrosity of filth.
After watching my country sink into the stinking cesspool it has become for 60 fucking years.. so help me god I just want to puke. And now… Trump. Mercy on our souls indeed. Our grandchildren’s grandchildren will SPIT on our graves for not dragging this scumsucking psychopath AND his minions, out of their granite palaces and burn them alive in the streets…before they scorch the earth. And they WILL.
Don’t think so Jim “U.S. President George Bush today signed into law the American Service members Protection Act of 2002, which is intended to intimidate countries that ratify the treaty for the International Criminal Court (ICC). The new law authorizes the use of military force to liberate any American or citizen of a U.S.-allied country being held by the court, which is located in The Hague. This provision, dubbed the “Hague invasion clause,” has caused a strong reaction from U.S. allies around the world, particularly in the Netherlands”. https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-becomes-law
So much for Obama’s “looking at the future, not the past” foolishness.
Well, the future is now. Thanks, Obama, for giving evil another chance.
If you don’t punish evil, it simply grows and becomes more deeply rooted.
Evil exists because good men don’t fucking kill the government agents perpetrating it.
Aww how sad are you?
@Jose Rodriquez has claimed “publicly” he acted alone when he destroyed the torture tapes. Gina Haspel privately LOL at #publicstupidity.
Obama/DOJ refusal to prosecute these scumsucking warcriminals for obstruction of justice, = Trumps coming inquisition. US Legal Imperialism needs to be burned to the ground before Trump scorches the planet. And the Joint Chiefs know it. I’m just hoping the citizens will do it them self.
It’s good to see the rift between the Intelligence Community and Mr. Trump is being healed. It seems that torture, or as some call it, integration, heals all wounds. As Fox News reports
quote”It’s good to see the rift between the Intelligence Community and Mr. Trump is being healed.”unquote
Says one looking forward to his own torture skillset being used instead of prosecuted. Meanwhile..practices on stray cats.
Speaking of healing.. how’s that gash under your nose doing? Should have had stitches.
Glenn Greenwald,
As a non objective journalist, do you believe you should have invested more time warning the public about the consequences of electing president Trump?
He is obviously worse than Clinton on immigrants and refugees, worse than Clinton on torture, worse than Clinton on climate change, worse than Clinton on business regulations. And so far, he shows no indication that he would change the international policies you have been criticized (Yemen). And he is doing exactly what he said he would do. I am not asking you or even suggesting that you should have supported any candidate. I am just wondering whether you believe you should have done more in warning the public.
Is there any evidence that warning people would have made a difference?
Will Rogers was wrong. There’s a forth. The few who learn by observation they can use the electric fence to torture those who fail to understand the consequences of not paying attention. “Benito Mussolini” falls into this bracket. He uses it here daily.
btw schmuck, don’t you ever get tired of getting your rocks off on the back of the human condition, notwithstanding using one of history’s most sadistic depraved psychopath as your nom de plume? You don’t fool me shithead.
Will Rogers isn’t to everyone’s taste. I’ll use a trigger warning next time.
“I’ll use a trigger warning next time.”
Just like Benito to stir-up trouble.
rimshot
You can stir-up more trouble if you add a hammer and anvil, too.
That’s how I hear it.
Benito offers us all at least three levels of discourse in each commentary:
What he says; which of course isn’t what he means.
What he really typed out before redaction; which of course isn’t really what his bosses meant for him to say.
What we think he’s saying; which of course goes without saying is going to be decidedly different for each of us.
This focus by Benito on the importance of irrational epistemology in guiding our everyday decision making has been a boon to the commenters here, in that it has allowed us to become that much more enlightened about what President Trump’s worldview really is, and in helping us to find comfort in knowing that what we think we know about reality is only as accurate as what our new president and his advisors tells us it should be.
I spent a great amount of time making clear what Trump was. I know it’s comforting to believe that had I just spent a little more time on Twitter echoing every journalist in the U.S. by calling Trump a liar and a fascist, then Clinton wouldn’t have lost the Rust Belt, but that’s really not very plausible.
It’s not the job of journalists to make sure your favorite politician wins an election. It’s the politician’s job, and if they fail, you should really blame them (or those who insisted on backing her despite ample evidence she would lose to Trump and warnings from many of us about how risky that was).
Finally, I think all journalists – all humans – are “non objective” so I’m not really sure what you mean by that.
I asked you whether you believe the amount of time you spent describing who Trump was during the campaign was enough considering that by most reasonable metrics he is way more dangerous than Clinton. I did not ask you whether you could have changed the outcome of the election. It is obvious that you could not.
I should have included the other candidates in my question as you automatically assumed that only a Clinton’s favorite would ask such question.
“It’s not the job of journalists to make sure your favorite politician wins an election.”
I have not asked you whether it is appropriate for a journalist to support a candidate or not, so like you I am not really sure what you mean by that. I am not even a US citizen. Therefore, I cannot even vote.
“Non-objective”. As you stated, this is what you think. So, I am just repeating your own words. There are many humans including journalists who believe they are objective.
My ultimate purpose was to discover whether Trump’s (a dangerous man) success is also due to the failure of the US media by ignoring him, or supporting him or by not warning the public enough. You are part of the US media, aren’t you?
You must be joking.
Ignoring him? Supporting him? Not warning the public?
What media were you reading and watching during the recent election campaign? Telenovelas?
You’ve picked a good username. Like Swiss cheese, most of what you write is full of holes. I understand it’s caused by bacteria.
“You’ve picked a good username. Like Swiss cheese, most of what you write is full of holes. I understand it’s caused by bacteria.”
One day you will learn how to attack the argument, not the commenter. Until then..checkmate!
Doug’s wheelhouse is ‘attack the messenger’.
It is certainly not truth …
Your argument? You mean your suggestion that Trump’s success might be due to “the failure of the US media by ignoring him, or supporting him or by not warning the public enough?”
The suggestion is so obviously ridiculous to anyone who has the slightest familiarity with media coverage of Trump during the campaign cycle that it deserves no more than scornful dismissal and that’s what you got from me.
If you want your arguments and suggestions to be met with serious engagement, make better arguments and suggestions. Make more stupid arguments and earn more scorn.
If you want people to play with you nicely, no matter what sort of nonsense you post, there are plenty of places on the Internet where you can find enforced niceness.
“The suggestion is so obviously ridiculous to anyone who has the slightest familiarity with media coverage of Trump during the campaign cycle that it deserves no more than scornful dismissal and that’s what you got from me.”
In a CNN coverage of Trump’s voters last week many said they got their news online specifically from Breitbart. Many well known media figures in the US who supported Trump have millions of followers.
You are right that is not an argument. That is a valid research question addressed to a well known media figure considering what some Trump voters themselves said. That question could become “ridiculous” whenever you present empirical evidence that most Trump voters are unaware of something called media, are aware of the media but completely ignore it, are among the millions of followers of media figures who support Trump, but their vote was not influenced by those media figures at all.
My statement about you and argument in general was an accurate description of who you are as you proved again above. I am not sure what “nicely” means. This is not your site. The owners of this site ask you to attack the argument, not the commenter. This is not my policy. I know it could be disappointing, but some people like me do not get into a name calling competition.
non-bacterial agents, such as prions, are also noted for their ability to create holes in particular media…
“My ultimate purpose was to discover whether Trump’s (a dangerous man) success is also due to the failure of the US media by ignoring him, or supporting him or by not warning the public enough.”
discover? seriously, where were you? what part of the planet would you have to hide in to be unaware of the constant attention given to Trump by the US media, with thousands of articles posted weekly concerning the “true” nature and import of his candidacy?
if this is your “argument,” it’s simply false on its face. you’re not even in the game, how could you possibly declare, “check?”
That is not an argument, that is a question requesting a media figure to share his opinion on whether he did enough to warn the public about a dangerous man.
Moreover, there were and still are many online, radio, TV programs, articles… that do not expose the true nature of Trump and even support him. Those programs are followed by millions of Americans. Many Trump voters stated specifically these were the programs they followed.
it seems a bit disingenuous to repeatedly fault people for ad hominem while playing hide-and-seek with your “argument.”
“fault people”
I am sure about that point. Whom did I fault?
Well, of course you were “just wondering.” Innocently wondering, of course.
Such blatant bullshit.
Just asking questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3sLzmmejCA
One day you will finally learn how to attack the argument, and not the commenter. Until then…checkmate!
He did attack your JAQ-ing off argument. And as I keep telling you, this “Checkmate!” bullshit is virtually only ever used by the intellectually insecure. Had you checkmated him it would be obvious to all bright people, but you have to yell it. Because you don’t actually believe it.
Clinton might very well have appointed Gina Haspel to lead the agency.
And we would barely have heard a peep from the diehard Dims and the LOTE voters.
But we would, assuredly, have heard a scathing condemnation from Greenwald, something the partisans of the One Party with two right wings just don’t get.
I agree; Glenn argued against Brennan’s appointment many times, but Dems felt Brennan was on their team.
Surely the corporatists and war hawks appointed by Clinton would’ve been better than the ones chosen by Trump. She would never select anyone from Goldman Sachs or anyone who wants to get tough with Iran.
These times require you to indicate sarcasm explicitly! Example: Are you The Donald? /s(arcasm)
It aint Greenwald’s job to “warn the public.” You’re pissed because Greenwald didn’t ignore Clinton’s failings and instead be a good little stenographer.
“I am not asking you or even suggesting that you should have supported any candidate. ”
That’s exactly what you’re doing, you fraud.
“It aint Greenwald’s job to “warn the public.”
In the above article, Greenwald is warning us that an individual who played a role in torture just got promoted to a top position in the most powerful intelligence agency in the world. Futhermore, this is Greenwald’s response above:
“I spent a great amount of time making clear what Trump was.”
If you follow the link he provided me in his response, he clearly urged journalists not to be neutral and warn the public about Trump.
Finally, Clinton, Trump, Stein…could not affect me that much as I am not a US citizen, cannot vote in US elections, do not live in the US and do not pay US taxes.
“you fraud”
Attack the argument, not the commenter.
As you’ve already been told, truth in labeling is allowed here. BTW, do you know anything about the Clinton Foundation and its action in Haiti?
This was my take on your question, written in November.
Glenn’s pre-election Slate interview:
A “corrective.” That’s a word I wouldn’t expect from Glenn but from the Fox News’ and MSNBCs of the world whose strategy includes employing a bias to restore equilibrium to what they believe is an otherwise liberal or corporatist media. In other words, Glenn was less concerned with providing his own unvarnished take on Clinton v. Trump (it may have aligned with so many of those from the reviled MSM, god forbid!) but more interested in providing a contrarian or counter-narrative because he believed Trump had no chance of winning anyways. So while Glenn spoke sparingly of his belief that Trump is a “mentally unstable” and “psychologically unhinged” individual and a unique threat, he filled his articles to the brim with tangential hypocrisies and inconsistencies; and one-sided criticism in a contrived effort to go against the grain:.
Scanning through Glenn’s TI article titles from July to the election, this calculus was quite clear. Not a single TI article focused primarily on Trump.
• Democrats’ Tactic of Accusing Critics of Kremlin Allegiance Has Long, Ugly History in U.S.
• Why did the Saudi Regime and Other Gulf Tyrannies Donate Millions to the Clinton Foundation?
• Congressional Democrats Call on FBI to Investigate Their Political Adversaries’ Kremlin Ties
• The Unrelenting Pundit-Led Effort to Delegitimize All Negative Reporting About Hillary Clinton
• Hillary Clinton: Boycotting North Carolina is Noble and Just; Boycotting Israel is Bigoted and Hateful
• Exclusive: New Email Leak Reveals Clinton Campaign’s Cozy Press Relationship
• In the Democratic Echo Chamber, Inconvenient Truths are Recast as Putin Plots
I don’t blame Glenn and the other prognosticators/pollsters for believing that Trump was destined to lose. Trump stunk up the debates, was losing in the aggregated polls, and is just a terrible person. That so many people could cast a ballot for such a reprehensible person as Trump is incredibly disheartening. Glenn’s true sin was acting as a “corrective.” By doing so, he utterly failed in his job as a journalist to help his flock of readers move beyond idealistic qualms with the two-party system into the realm of real-life consequences of a Trump presidency. We’re talking Trump’s complete disregard for civil liberties; the possibility of normalizing bigotry, sexism, and racism throughout our culture; and utter ignorance of government and the rule of law. Glenn simply did not perceive a Trump win as a genuine possibility and therefore was reticent to honestly chronicle the threat he presented. His indifference suggested that Trump’s antics were common knowledge and that scrutiny of Clinton wasn’t. Glenn decided that getting a head start on criticizing future President-Elect Clinton was the real priority. His forward thinking was a huge calculated risk and a terrible one. When President Trump continues to do and say reprehensible stuff, Glenn should be the last person that should say: “I told you so.” In the 2016 Presidential election, Glenn was at best a spectator and at worst a contributor to the false equivalence that Trump was an equal or better candidate than Clinton. Yet here he is today ( mycomment from November 2016 ), chiding others for residing in an echo chamber and wagging his finger at them for being caught by surprise.
In the Slate article, Glenn pretends that he holds no influence. That’s simply not true and if it was, he wouldn’t reside on Twitter. So for someone who makes a living opining and promoting advocacy and “adversarial journalism, Glenn utterly wasted his influence. He never assessed and shared with readers which candidate best aligned with his and TI’s advocacy. “Both candidates suck” was his implicit contribution.
Also from November, separate article:
Glenn talks about media timidity but I cannot think of anybody that was more timid than him during the Presidential election cycle. A perfect example was when Glenn was asked during a video interview if Hillary Clinton was the lesser of two evils. Glenn looked like a deer caught in the headlights. After inhaling the oxygen out of the room, Glenn spent 10 full seconds rambling instead of responding to this very simple and predictable question. This was reflected in his TI articles. His most ardent readership was utterly convinced that Clinton was either equal to or worse than Trump, yet Glenn refused to chime in on this obvious issue. He knew damn well that Trump was a “sort of unique evil” (his words) and a much more alarming risk than Clinton. But he was too afraid to make this clear because it could compromise his ideological purity. If he consistently stated that Clinton was better than Trump warts and all, he risked being labeled a shill and pissing off your horde of Twitter followers (or become a pariah like Mackey). Now that Trump is filling his adviser and cabinet positions with a who’s who list of regressive, anti-Islamic, anti-privacy slime-balls, I wondered as well if he had any regrets.
So basically, he assumed Clinton was already winning and focused more on her. He did not really answer my question. I was wondering whether top media figures like him in the US believe they should have done more to warn the public about the danger of this man. Or whether he believes he should have spent more time covering Trump. His answer is basically: do not blame me for Clinton’s loss.
Like I said, Glenn wanted to be a “corrective” to the media consensus, which was that Trump was dangerously unqualified.
I believe this position was rooted in his past experience with media institutions falling into patterns of group-think. Hence the reason he comments so much on media fixations such as the Putin-Trump love affair and hacking issues, “fake news,” and so forth. It was borne of the failures in journalism leading up to 9/11 and it has worked well for him in the past because the media often does eventually pull a Buzzfeed and go way overboard. However with Trump, the endless scrutiny leveled at him and fears of his incompetence were absolutely deserved.
I mean, look at his response to you:
To Glenn, attacking Trump in his TI articles was almost cliche. As you acknowledged, of course he didn’t cost Clinton the election. But he wasted his significant influence. To those who frequented the TI comments section for the 6 months leading up to the election, the “Trump and Clinton are equally bad” trope was incredibly common.
This entire “let’s set Glenn/journalists up to knock-em-down” premise is a straw-man.
Knock that straw-man down down and you come up with the real question:
“Should American citizens have done more to learn about the danger of Trump?”
In your case, Nate, I’ve said it before: Glenn’s provided his evidence as to what he did report on, which you likely read, in addition to articles you’ve seen warning about Trump in other venues.
In other words, the pound of flesh isn’t to gotten from any one journalist or journalists.
The information was out there, and at the end of the day the citizens that voted (or chose not to vote) own this mess, and it’s time to start doing something about that, instead of killing the messengers.
Absolutely agreed. My views on this extend no further than the TI community. I have no illusions that things would have ended differently had Glenn taken off his ideologically pure crown to share his views on the real-world implications of a Trump versus Clinton presidency.
Clinton sucked as a candidate. That’s a fact. But Trump was and continues to be a unique threat. I perused TI’s comments enough to have seen that many around here wrongly considered Trump and Clinton to be equally horrid. Glenn’s articles fed this apathy.
After two weeks of a Trump presidency, I think they’re finding out how wrong some people were. Would there be a “Muslim ban” under Clinton? No. A goddamn border wall? No. Obamacare in real jeopardy of going down the toilet? No. Fraying international relations worldwide? No. “Alternative Facts”? No. A new Scalia on the bench? No. A bunch of regressive anti-Muslim, nationalists surrounding the President? No. Deregulation and tax cuts for the rich? No. Billionaire appointees? Well, probably….
“I…perused TI’s comments enough to have seen that many around here wrongly considered Trump and Clinton to be equally horrid.
I read the same, but for most commenters I’m thinking that it wasn’t really “equally horrid” that they meant, it was rather they didn’t fully flesh out in writing that Trump, if elected (and it really didn’t seem like a thing) would be actually be moreso.
Glenn, on the other hand, did spell out much of Trump’s especially nasty traits and where that could lead if elected, despite thinking (as most of us did) that Hillary would ultimately win the election.
We all agree about Trump, but the disconnect and important issues that matter to many millions seem to have been more important in the Trump phenomenon that Trump himself.
* I would agree that way too many negative, downright crazy individuals have the Presidents hear.
* I don’t think he will legally or effectively be able to get away with the “Muslim ban”
* about the wall, it is true that the U.S. has to protect its jurisdictional integrity and many were abusing that way of entry. Now, he used the wall as a venue for his racist, xenophobic and plutocratic ideas … which is nothing new. Trump was even sued due to the discriminatory practices in the buildings he owned.
* Obamacare wasn’t really working, especially not for the poor. Poor people are even being penalized for not being part of it. This is not what most people would think of universal health care. Yeah, socialistic as the British and Canadians have it!
* fraying international relations worldwide, I would not be so sure about Clinton.
* “Alternative Facts”? Actually, I am amazed that that phrase gained relevance is association with Trump, when it fits way more Obama and the Clintons.
* Deregulation and tax cuts for the rich?: No, you said?
* Billionaire appointees? Well, probably….: More like certainly!
Given the options, I thought Trump was going to be “good”, because he was going to make people realize at once that USG was out of control and because the status quo, the political establishment, U.S. IT companies, Western MSM . . . hated him to no end (which actually he masterfully used to raise his social currency and credibility, “the enemy of my enemy …”). So, I hoped they would be up his orange @ss, but once again I have to admit I was wrong. They are all meekly paying homage to their emperor. So, it doesn’t have to be a Trump or no Trump problem. It is more comprehensive and goes deeper than him. As Jill Stein said: “Trump is just a symptom of our times”
RCL
“So, it doesn’t have to be a Trump or no Trump problem. It is more comprehensive and goes deeper than him. As Jill Stein said: “Trump is just a symptom of our times”
Yes., the conditions surrounding Trump’s ascendancy are all about a majority of people that have been economically and politically marginalized for decades. If not Trump, it would have been someone else. Too bad the establishment parties disenfranchised voters even more with how Bernie was treated, because “populism” was going to happen anyway, and it would have been less chaotic had he won.
I wish all Bernie supporters were logical, unfortunately he appealed to a lot of people who let emotional charge on topics drive their politics
He answered your “questions.”
Right here.
Yes, are you not someone based in Europe who has done NGO or other humanitarian work and has knowledge of the Clinton Foundation in Haiti?
I never liked you.. but your words here have a certain validity for me. Glenn?????
It’s okay general, I still like you!
You and swisscheese seem to believe that despite almost the entirety of the mainstream media and most of the elites being behind Clinton, she would have won the Electoral College if only this website spent more of its time promoting her lilting, money-bloated campaign. It’s beyond ludicrous.
What guarantee is there that Clinton would have been the “lesser of two evils” in the long term, anyway? Clinton’s administration would’ve also been filled with corporate hacks, warmongers, neocons, and third-wayers. There would be no mobilization by liberals to oppose her either, much like there was little liberal opposition to Obama’s policies.
This is my statement to Glenn Greenwald:
“I did not ask you whether you could have changed the outcome of the election. It is obvious that you could not.”
This is Nate’s statement about Glenn Greenwald:
“of course he (Greenwald) didn’t cost Clinton the election.
This is your statement:
“You and swisscheese seem to believe that despite almost the entirety of the mainstream media and most of the elites being behind Clinton, she would have won the Electoral College if only this website spent more of its time promoting her..”
You highlight and insist on:
Yet you “asked”:
Because you were just JAQ-ing off.
i don’t know about being worse than clinton on torture, or worse than clinton on business regulation. clinton’s support for the trade treaties would have been very bad for climate change –we would have had to pay the fossil fuel companies damages if we tried to pass regulations imposing heavy taxes on fossil fuels, or shut down pipelines, or drilling, if we could even get those measures passed at all, serving as a readymade excuse for clinton to do nothing. she also supported fracking. clinton would, on the evidence so far, been more of a warmonger, and the biggest war of all could have been russia.
it was an awful choice, and while we are opposing trump, we need to do whatever we can and must to stop being forced to make a choice like that again.
a) Trump is worse than Clinton on immigrants and refugees:
Most people work their sense of reality from movies and talk shows, the media. Yes, Trump is very vocal about issues relating to immigrants and refugees, but suggesting that Clinton would have been any better shows that you don’t know who Hillary Clinton is and how deeply compromised she was in starting all those wars that have killed and displaced millions of people. Just to cite one example, she was publicly, joyfully laughing as masses rebelling his rule push a gun up Gaddafi’s rectum, but she wasn’t so happy when they did the same to the U.S. officials in Benghazi. Moreover, Europeans governments question the point of toppling Gaddafi for the fun of it, pointing out that avalanches of sub-Saharan Africans would reach Europe …
You may find Obama “cool”, but do you know that Mr. “Yes we can”, “it turns out I am better at killing people than I could have ever imagined” was the champion POTUS so far when it comes to deportations?
// __ Obama Has Deported More People Than Any Other President, By Serena Marshall Aug 29, 2016, 2:05 PM ET
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661
http://images.teinteresa.es/mundo/Grafico-obama_TINIMA20161114_0179_20.png
Again, there is no way to compare him to Clinton, but I would bet one of my balls that Trump will start less wars and kill less people than Obama.
~
b) Trump is worse than Clinton on torture: you mean Clinton would be much better at smiling to the cameras and playing out her grandma act, while making sure the deep state takes care of business, right?
Clinton voted in favor of the October 2002 Iraq War Resolution, which authorized President George W. Bush to use military force against Iraq. Do you remember that war started based on b#llsh!tting lies they all knew about. Did you forget already how people were and still are tortured?
Here is Clinton with one of her best friends:
// __ USA: “Special place in hell” for women who don’t help Clinton – Madeleine Albright
youtube.com/watch?v=msMhG_FUnXE
~
// __ Madeleine Albright justifies the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children as “worth it”
youtube.com/watch?v=KP1OAD9jSaI
~
c) Trump worse than Clinton on climate change/environmental regulations: I would say you may be right
d) Trump worse than Clinton on business regulations: well, I wonder what you mean by “business” and “worse”, but Trump signed off TPP within days after being elected.
Count me on half of U.S. population who doesn’t vote. To me voting is a very stupid illusion that politicians entertain us with. I don’t really like either Trump or Clinton, but I see the good in Trump. He singlehandedly and thoroughly wiped his @ss with:
1) the U.S. status quo;
2) Western MSM; and
3) the U.S. political establishment
The only important thing that “constitutional lawyer” Obama masterfully wiped his black @ss with was the supposedly sacrosanct U.S. constitution.
RCL
Your points:
a) This is about Clinton foreign policy mostly in the Middle East. It is not about Clinton’s policy on refugees. She stated she would accept more refugees in the United States. Trump stated it would stop them. So, if you are a refugee attempting to come to the US, I am not sure how Trump is even equal to Clinton in that area.
b) Clinton stated she would not bring the “interrogation techniques” (torture) back. Trump said he believed torture works and they should get back. If you are against torture, I am not how Trump is even equal to Clinton in that area. Yes, Clinton voted for the war in Iraq, but the among main four candidates, four clearly stated they would not bring those techniques back. Only one: Trump stated he would bring them back.
d) Trump stated he would remove regulations (they already did) to drill more oil, to disregard water pollution, to disregard consumer protection with regards to the financial industry. There were four main candidates. Only one of them went that far. I am not sure if you worry about the water you drink, if you want at least a some protection yourself against wall street financiers how Trump is even equal to the other three.
“To me voting is a very stupid illusion that politicians entertain us with.”
If you do not vote, then your opinion is realistically meaningless. Voting is not really about “liking” a politician, it is about choosing a politician that could represent most, not all, of your interest. If you see “good” in Trump, then support him or vote him. But I am not sure how a refugee who was trying to go to the US would see “good” in Trump or see Trump, Clinton, Stein, and the other as “equal”.
You are obviously cherry picking what you like about Clinton, putting to much trust in what a politician has “stated” and trying to decide for other people what should be meaningful to them.
So, almost half of the U.S. population finds voting meaningless even in the most contested election ever in the U.S.? and the other half would choose a well-known plutocratic buffoon all the way to POTUS? A plutocratic buffoon who seems to at least be truthfully speaking his mind. A large part of people supporting Hillary didn’t even trust her, they supported her as “the less of two evils”.
// __ President Trump PBS Frontline Documentary
youtube.com/watch?v=uT006S_Xbsc
~
// __ Trump’s Road to the White House (full film) _ FRONTLINE
youtube.com/watch?v=SMwXKl0odq8
~
// __ Best Of The Young Turks Election Day Meltdown 2016 – From smug to utterly devastated.
youtube.com/watch?v=UiWY0iRLV94
~
// __ Watch Rachel Maddow get that STUPID SMIRK wiped off her face by Trump’s Election
youtube.com/watch?v=Ut0TaegQ-kw
~
Based on how you articulate your comments, I think you are able to realize that there is some deeper, more fundamental sh!t, “yuge” disconnect going on here.
As I said: there is no way to compare him to Clinton. He is and Clinton may have been, but I would bet one of my balls that Trump will start less wars and kill less people than Obama. That is an easily falsifiable statement.
The U.S. and their Western NATO acolytes have 8X the genocidal ratio of Nazi Germany during WWII.
// __ Germany is the tell-tale heart of America’s drone war
https://theintercept.com/2015/04/17/ramstein/?comments=1#comment-124608
~
// __ MSNBC: President Donald Trump’s Oil Grab Policy Puts US Troops At Risk | Rachel Maddow
youtube.com/watch?v=TIoAN8GxD7E
~
Would you at least agree a less war-, killings-inclined government would be a good start?
RCL
This admin: I am impressed by their uniform cruelty.
Thank you, Glenn Greenwald.
Director of the National Clandestine Service? “WE” complain about the techiniques of governance of places like iraq, libya, syria and israel, or china or russia, because why? Because they dont have the sense or the class to hide their brutal ways of keeping the peace?
What do you mean WE?
btw, does this mean that flunking out of dental school pays better?
Lies, torture, and wars are making a comeback!
We will make American great again!!
Comeback???
Trump will Make America Gag Again…and Again..and Again.. till they vomit bile.